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stenver
2010-05-28, 04:05 PM
I want to put an anti magic zone in a dungeon.

In that anti magic zone, there is an evil prisoner, who the PC must rescue.

Guarding that prisoner, is an earth elemental...

So, earth elemental CAN exist in an anti magic field, right?

Altair_the_Vexed
2010-05-28, 04:21 PM
Yes. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#antimagic)

"Golems and other constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead, still function in an antimagic area (though the antimagic area suppresses their spellcasting and their supernatural and spell-like abilities normally)."

taltamir
2010-05-28, 04:36 PM
anti magic field is a misleading name... its actually a very powerful dispel area effect that suppresses / dispels / prevents certain TYPE of magics. Lots of "supernatural" things can exist within it freely
Of course, WOTC hates the dictionary... it suppresses abilities marked as "supernatural" via a "Su" tag... but other clearly supernatural things are not "Su" in terms of game mechanics... often marked as "Ex" for Extraordinary or just not tagged at all as if they are totally mundane (probably because WOTC didn't consider that they violate the laws of physics)...

basically, an AMF only suppresses what it explicitly says it suppresses.

PId6
2010-05-28, 04:42 PM
basically, an AMF only suppresses what it explicitly says it suppresses.
Except it doesn't say you can't actually cast spells inside it, so yeah...

stenver
2010-05-28, 04:49 PM
Thank you all for your answer

As for PId6, i believe it is good that you CAN cast in it, probably making the PC suprised, as the spell is an automatic failure.(Roll a few dices behind the board with an evil smile, to make them even more uncomfortable and think there was a CHANCE that it will succeed)

herrhauptmann
2010-05-28, 04:53 PM
It depends on how the earth elemental got there. If it's via Summon Monster 1-9, then he disappears.
Incorporeal creatures (including undead) wink out when in the field.

PId6
2010-05-28, 04:54 PM
As for PId6, i believe it is good that you CAN cast in it, probably making the PC suprised, as the spell is an automatic failure.(Roll a few dices behind the board with an evil smile, to make them even more uncomfortable and think there was a CHANCE that it will succeed)
Most parties would probably notice the AMF pretty easily, if they use any continuous magic items or cast any buff spells (which is pretty much everyone past level... 1). Knowing that your spell would fail inside one would probably be a pretty simple Knowledge check for anyone with Knowledge: Arcana.

And by RAW, if you can cast spells inside an AMF, certain spells (like Orbs) are not suppressed, so that can easily make AMFs quite meaningless to well-played casters (more so than it already is).

stenver
2010-05-28, 04:54 PM
Id say the elves found the elemental and binded it to this dungeon. I think its a good enough explanation.

1 more question:
Psionic focus - This is possible in antimagic field, right?

@PId6 - If my players are smart enough to find the right spells in that area, then all the better for them.

Greenish
2010-05-28, 04:56 PM
Psionic focus - This is possible in antimagic field, right?Yes, being psionically focused shouldn't be affected by the field. It's a state of mind, not a psionic buff.

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 05:27 PM
Except it doesn't say you can't actually cast spells inside it, so yeah...

That's because you can - the effects are simply suppressed.

This becomes relevant where Epic Spells are concerned, because you have to actually cast them before the suppression check takes place.



1 more question:
Psionic focus - This is possible in antimagic field, right?

Yes, because becoming focused is neither Supernatural, Psi-like or Spell-like.

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-28, 05:55 PM
Incorporeal creatures (including undead) wink out when in the field.

No, only incorporeal undead. A Coure in globe form stays right where she is (unless she was summoned), for instance.

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 06:04 PM
No, only incorporeal undead. A Coure in globe form stays right where she is (unless she was summoned), for instance.

Indeed, as would an Unbodied.

NEO|Phyte
2010-05-28, 06:06 PM
Or a psion uncarnate that reached his (ex) capstone ability, and is beating you up with a masterwork greatsword.

Lysander
2010-05-28, 06:10 PM
Except it doesn't say you can't actually cast spells inside it, so yeah...

It does: "An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it." I'd rule that a spell counts as "used within", even if ultimately targeting something outside the field.

PId6
2010-05-28, 06:21 PM
It does: "An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it." I'd rule that a spell counts as "used within", even if ultimately targeting something outside the field.
It suppresses the spell, yes, but not the casting of it. You can't cast Charm Person on the guy standing outside the AMF, but you can hurl an Orb at him even if you're inside it since Orbs aren't affected by AMF. I don't think that's intended, nor should it be allowed IMO, but it works by RAW.

taltamir
2010-05-28, 06:33 PM
Except it doesn't say you can't actually cast spells inside it, so yeah...

which is why you can cast spells inside of it... I have never heard anyone dispute the claim that by the RAW you can cast instant conjurations within an AMF.

As for intended or not... if you ignore the name for a second and think of what it does and doesn't do, you would notice only a very specific subset of spells and magical effects are disrupted by it.

Instant conjurations are NOT the only things you can get through an AMF...


Most parties would probably notice the AMF pretty easily, if they use any continuous magic items or cast any buff spells (which is pretty much everyone past level... 1). Knowing that your spell would fail inside one would probably be a pretty simple Knowledge check for anyone with Knowledge: Arcana.

By RAW, either 1/3 or 2/3 of magic items emit a glow (don't remember which is which)... when you enter the AMF they all go dark.


It depends on how the earth elemental got there. If it's via Summon Monster 1-9, then he disappears.
Incorporeal creatures (including undead) wink out when in the field.

summon monster has a duration of 1 round per level... A caster level 20 summoned elemental will only be there for 120 seconds before disappearing...

So I doubt that is the source of said elemental

JonestheSpy
2010-05-28, 07:08 PM
It suppresses the spell, yes, but not the casting of it. You can't cast Charm Person on the guy standing outside the AMF, but you can hurl an Orb at him even if you're inside it since Orbs aren't affected by AMF. I don't think that's intended, nor should it be allowed IMO, but it works by RAW.

This has been discussed before so I will repeat once and then withdraw from the discussion: the idea that a sphere of magically created 'cold', 'electricity' or 'force' could exist for an instant within a field that suppresses all magic (i.e. long enough to pass though the border of said field, travel through space, and hit a target) is one of the stupidest rules interpretations I have ever heard of.

A common interpretation is some circles, I know, but no less ludicrous for that in my opinion.

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 07:20 PM
I too do not think you can cast orbs from inside an AMF, especially given the rationale behind why orbs function in them in the first place.

The SRD implies they only work because the spell that created them is no longer in effect. Therefore, an AMF would keep the spell that would create them from taking effect.

Epic spells are another matter - so long as you make the CL check, you should have no problem casting them.

Greenish
2010-05-28, 07:20 PM
This has been discussed before so I will repeat once and then withdraw from the discussion: the idea that a sphere of magically created 'cold', 'electricity' or 'force' could exist for an instant within a field that suppresses all magic (i.e. long enough to pass though the border of said field, travel through space, and hit a target) is one of the stupidest rules interpretations I have ever heard of.You object to orbs? How about a solid wall of "force" that not only continues to exists in area that "suppresses all magic", but also cuts of some of that area?

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 07:25 PM
He is not objecting to Orbs working in an AMF, he is objecting to the Orb caster standing in the AMF while he makes them.

As am I, because that would make no sense.

PId6
2010-05-28, 08:28 PM
He is not objecting to Orbs working in an AMF, he is objecting to the Orb caster standing in the AMF while he makes them.

As am I, because that would make no sense.

He's objecting to Orbs going through an AMF, regardless of its origin:

This has been discussed before so I will repeat once and then withdraw from the discussion: the idea that a sphere of magically created 'cold', 'electricity' or 'force' could exist for an instant within a field that suppresses all magic (i.e. long enough to pass though the border of said field, travel through space, and hit a target) is one of the stupidest rules interpretations I have ever heard of.
However, he's confusing real world physics with RAW and has no rules backing for what he suggests. The rules for antimagic are some of the worst-written and problematic rules in the game, but they still make it quite clear that Conjuration [Creation] spells "lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#creation)

Optimystik
2010-05-28, 08:32 PM
He's objecting to Orbs going through an AMF, regardless of its origin:

Ah, if that is the case I misread. Orbs can definitely fly through an AMF; Jones is wrong.

Lapak
2010-05-28, 09:11 PM
Ah, if that is the case I misread. Orbs can definitely fly through an AMF; Jones is wrong.For what it's worth, I completely agree with you that Jones is wrong. I also completely agree with Jones that the way evocation-styled instantaneous conjurations like Orbs interact with anti-magic is really dumb.

sofawall
2010-05-28, 09:36 PM
I agree that Jones is wrong, but the rules should be.

JonestheSpy
2010-05-28, 10:29 PM
For what it's worth, I completely agree with you that Jones is wrong. I also completely agree with Jones that the way evocation-styled instantaneous conjurations like Orbs interact with anti-magic is really dumb.

Okay, I said I wouldn't keep going, but I do feel compelled to clarify.

AMF is a core spell and written with spells like "Wall of Iron" in mind when clarifying whether instantaneous conjuration spells are effected. The wall of iron would not be affected by the field because it's just a big hankin' piece of metal sitting there, no longer magic once conjured. Specific spells that involved continual magic effects, such as Wall of Force and Prismatic Sphere, were excepted from the effects of the AMF, presumably because of the inherent power of those particular spells.

Then along comes whatever splatbook with the Orb spells, categorized as "instantaneous conjuration" even though they're obviously not instantaneous. As Lapak notes, they are far more appropriate for the Evocation school than Conjuration. And then along comes a bunch of rules lawyers on ye olde internets saying "Aha! Even though these orbs are blatantly, obviously magical to anyone who bothers to spend a millisecond thinking about them, they are categorized in such away that they can be launched into an Anti-Magic Field. Woo-hoo!"

And I will reiterate that in my opinion, that is one of the stupidest interpretations of the rules I've ever come across. As a DM, I feel pretty strongly that you need at least a minimum of common sense in the game.

PId6
2010-05-28, 10:41 PM
And I will reiterate that in my opinion, that is one of the stupidest interpretations of the rules I've ever come across. As a DM, I feel pretty strongly that you need at least a minimum of common sense in the game.
It's not an "interpretation"; it's the rule, and it's pretty clear cut as far as rules go. Common sense is not common; people have different ideas on whether certain things make sense in their game, and that's fine. You may think it's "obviously not instantaneous," but that's not necessarily obvious to others. If you want to houserule it in your game to not act how it's written to act, then that's your business.

But some people don't see a problem with Orbs existing inside AMFs in the same way that Walls of Stone and Walls of Force do, and don't agree with your idea of common sense. Because people play by different houserules and have different definitions of whether certain things make sense, we can only talk about RAW unless we set certain guidelines beforehand. Interpreting that playing by the rules is a "stupid interpretation" is, for lack of a better term, a stupid interpretation.

sofawall
2010-05-28, 10:53 PM
<snip>

It's not Instantaneous Conjuration. It's Conjuration (Creation), a subtype of Conjuration spells that creates actual, real, non-magical stuff. Similar to Walls of Force, the fire from Orb of Fire is created by magic and launched by magic, but is not magical itself.

Also, this is not a rules interpretation. It's not like "does Cunning Strike give more than 1d6 or sneak attack?". It's like "A character is dead at -10 hp or lower" (but please do not bring up that dead is not a defined game term. You are dead, whatever it means, at -10 or lower HP). It's just rules, no interpreting them.

Ormur
2010-05-28, 11:43 PM
Lets not get carried away debating semantics. It's pretty clear the RAW actually allows orbs to fly into antimagic fields but that's probably a result them not being thought out compared to other spells. Conjured balls of energy being equal to iron walls and not whisking out in an antimagic field are incredibly unrealistic both from an in-game and out-of-game perspective. Even walls of force which are specifically exempted for being superawsome are an evocation spell. It's just the stupid placement of orbs as conjurations that exempts them, not anything specific.

I realize RAW is the only starting point to begin a debate on but calling RAW resulting from poorly though out combination of rules an interpretation isn't that unreasonable such as in this instance. Most groups probably ignore RAW where it blatantly flies in the face of their idea of common sense even though that might differ between groups. Even on a larger scale a common definition of RAI might even arise, so let's not get too RAW-minded concerning dictionary definitions in those cases.

taltamir
2010-05-28, 11:44 PM
Okay, I said I wouldn't keep going, but I do feel compelled to clarify.

AMF is a core spell and written with spells like "Wall of Iron" in mind when clarifying whether instantaneous conjuration spells are effected. The wall of iron would not be affected by the field because it's just a big hankin' piece of metal sitting there, no longer magic once conjured

And this is EXACTLY what the authors had in mind when they decided about its interaction with spheres... however, they suffer from "you fail physics forever"

While you could say that the acid is just "mundane acid" that is now flying through space thanks to its inertia without magic, you cannot have mundane "lightening", "fire", "cold", and "sound" do the same. Sound is physical vibrations in the air (or other medium) and will not travel through the air in such a manner due to inertia, because that is just not how sound works.
Fire and cold wouldn't do so either, they would disperse into the air... likewise, lightening is merely free flowing electrons... which also would not travel that way.

The whole thing is just stupid... but WOTC has no grasp of physics.

That all being said. RAW isn't about physics, its about RAW.



Lets not get carried away debating semantics. It's pretty clear the RAW actually allows orbs to fly into antimagic fields but that's probably a result them not being thought out compared to other spells. Conjured balls of energy being equal to iron walls and not whisking out in an antimagic field are incredibly unrealistic both from an in-game and out-of-game perspective. Even walls of force which are specifically exempted for being superawsome are an evocation spell. It's just the stupid placement of orbs as conjurations that exempts them not anything specific.

Orbs in general are ill thought out... they are a way to give the finger to evokers by giving the best DD spell to conjuration... and absolutely nothing about them makes sense even if you do take magic into account... for example, orb of acid ignores SR because its totally mundane acid supposedly... so how come its dealing more and more damage as you level? does it get "more acidic"? well, ok, lets say it does... in which case you should be looking at higher concentration acids. with eventually getting to be pure acid which is simply a ball of pure H+ ions. the thing is, the amount of damage that would do (which would be considerable) is... well actually I have to admit I don't know. I was about to go into speculation mode of how much stronger it is than fuming acid and compare the damage of both by the RAW but I realize I would have been speaking out of my nether regions.

Heck, where I originally was going to go with this is that they make no sense in terms of game mechanics, balance, and being non magical yet interacting with their target, environment, etc...

PId6
2010-05-29, 12:07 AM
If giant eyeballs can somehow magically float inside an AMF, is it so unrealistic for fire to do the same?

If anything, AMFs are badly thought out. Arbitrarily imposing physics on a game like D&D is just a lesson in futility.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-29, 12:09 AM
And this is EXACTLY what the authors had in mind when they decided about its interaction with spheres... however, they suffer from "you fail physics forever"

While you could say that the acid is just "mundane acid" that is now flying through space thanks to its inertia without magic, you cannot have mundane "lightening", "fire", "cold", and "sound" do the same. Sound is physical vibrations in the air (or other medium) and will not travel through the air in such a manner due to inertia, because that is just not how sound works.
Fire and cold wouldn't do so either, they would disperse into the air... likewise, lightening is merely free flowing electrons... which also would not travel that way.

The whole thing is just stupid... but WOTC has no grasp of physics.

That all being said. RAW isn't about physics, its about RAW.
Ironically, from a physics stand-point, the non-Orb spells make more sense working this way:

Fire: Burning Hands, for example, could easily create and spew non-magical burning substance a la a flamethrower, which could be launched into an AMF. Fireball and Orb of Fire both make quite a bit less sense, but you could argue that both are simply spherical volumes of some burning fluid, which might work.

Cold: Err... Well, conjuring some substance that reacts spontaneously and rapidly with air in a endothermic reaction might do it... though I think endothermic reactions are, by definition, not spontaneous... but then I failed chemistry so I could be wrong. Again, if such a substance exists, no reason magic couldn't shape it into a ball and throw it...

Lightning: Magically generate a large charge at your location, large enough to break down the air's resistance and ionize it, causing a perfectly mundane lightning bolt - no issues with that entering an AMF. Though it might require magically inducing an opposite charge on your target in order to aim it, in which case it won't work in an AMF. In any event, you sure aren't making a ball of it and throwing it.

Acid: Actually, a blob of acid could be hurled magically such that it went through an AMF, so Orb of Acid, along with Acid Arrow, probably do make sense even RAW.

Sonic: magically creating vibrations that generate sound waves that can quite mundanely disperse out into an AMF. Be a Cone or Radius emanation, though, not a single-target attack. Maybe a line if you're really clever. Eh. Mess with nodes and antinodes and you might manage to make it only significant at one point, but it's still a Target: effect and not a ranged touch attack.

Whatever.

stenver
2010-05-29, 04:35 AM
On a side note. What would be an appropiate encounter for 3 level 10 PC with no flaws.
Persistent cleric,
Orc psionic warroir 9/eye of gruumsh 1(he switched wis penatly to con)
and a wizard

Huge antimagic field
I cant make up my mind if i should put an
Earth Elemental, Huge CR7 or
Earth Elemental, Large CR5
And i want to encounter to be difficult, not a cake walk, but i simply have no idea how much exactly would the AMF weaken them(cleric would lose his divine power and all the magic items would be gone.. that seems quite alot, on the other hand huge earth elemental is just weak.)

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-29, 05:07 AM
Stuff

Fun fact: This is a core spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidsplash.htm).

So, no, I reject your claim that antimagic field was made without projectile instantaneous Conjuration (Creation) effects in mind, because one of them is a bloody core cantrip in the PHB.

Also: the Orb spells do not summon orbs of Cold, Electricity, Fire or Sonic. They're all orbs of acid that just happen to deal different energy types. :smallwink:

Emmerask
2010-05-29, 07:48 AM
Also: the Orb spells do not summon orbs of Cold, Electricity, Fire or Sonic. They're all orbs of acid that just happen to deal different energy types. :smallwink:

While this could make sense for fire, electricity and cold how does an acid deal sonic damage? or force damage? :smallwink:

Yuki Akuma
2010-05-29, 07:53 AM
Nah, Orb of Force is actually an orb of force. The other Orbs are "as Orb of Acid, except it deals x damage".

Obviously, the Orb of Sound is made up of... very noisy acid?

stenver
2010-05-29, 08:04 AM
anyone care to reply for my last question?

Emmerask
2010-05-29, 08:11 AM
well problem is that it really depends on the level of optimization ie over time you get a feel for what this particular party is capable of and what not but it is hard to say from an outside view.

I would say greater or elder if you want it to be challenging :smallwink:

/edit the large one with 68 hp will most likely die to the first psiwarrior charge ^^

Greenish
2010-05-29, 08:57 AM
And this is EXACTLY what the authors had in mind when they decided about its interaction with spheres... however, they suffer from "you fail physics forever"

While you could say that the acid is just "mundane acid" that is now flying through space thanks to its inertia without magic, you cannot have mundane "lightening", "fire", "cold", and "sound" do the same. Sound is physical vibrations in the air (or other medium) and will not travel through the air in such a manner due to inertia, because that is just not how sound works.
Fire and cold wouldn't do so either, they would disperse into the air... likewise, lightening is merely free flowing electrons... which also would not travel that way.

The whole thing is just stupid... but WOTC has no grasp of physics.

That all being said. RAW isn't about physics, its about RAW.Well, physics in D&D…

After all, elementals can exist inside anti-magic field. They're sentient lumps of stuff that's not always even a substance, and yet they're not magical in this respect.

stenver
2010-05-29, 10:15 AM
well problem is that it really depends on the level of optimization ie over time you get a feel for what this particular party is capable of and what not but it is hard to say from an outside view.

I would say greater or elder if you want it to be challenging :smallwink:

/edit the large one with 68 hp will most likely die to the first psiwarrior charge ^^

Yeah, almost do know what they are capable of, but not when suddenly most of their items and magic are useless.

I will go with the huge one then. I, for some reason, believe that the greater one will make short work of them. Especially since they are completely surrounded by stone.(The elemental CAN see through stone, right?)

tyckspoon
2010-05-29, 10:18 AM
I will go with the huge one then. I, for some reason, believe that the greater one will make short work of them. Especially since they are completely surrounded by stone.(The elemental CAN see through stone, right?)

Nope. They can move through stone, and hiding in it and using it to outflank and select choice targets out of the party is a really difficult strategy to deal with, but it doesn't have any senses that will actually penetrate the stone (Earth elementals really ought to get Tremorsense, at least.)

stenver
2010-05-29, 10:32 AM
hmm.. i guess the party will get numerous spot checks then, to see if they will notice creeping eyes in the wall.

lvl 1 sharnian
2010-05-29, 10:33 AM
Nah, Orb of Force is actually an orb of force. The other Orbs are "as Orb of Acid, except it deals x damage".

Obviously, the Orb of Sound is made up of... very noisy acid?

Perhaps all the orbs are just encompassed in a thin layer of magic and the respective elements are sent spinning rapidly inside to make use of centrifugal force and inertia so that when they fly through an AMF, they retain enough of that physics stuff that they can stay coherent?

Orb of Sound is probably just noisy acid. Maybe