PDA

View Full Version : [3.5]Full BAB base classes



Thurbane
2010-05-28, 09:24 PM
OK, just curious...outside of ToB (which isn't used in our games), what would people say are the best full BAB base classes are in the areas of:

Damage output
Versatility (in combat)
Versatility (out of combat)

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-28, 09:29 PM
Barbarian is probably the best as far as pure damage output is concerned. Of course, a charge-monkey isn't much for versatility out of combat...

Edit: I might give best out-of-combat versatility to the Duskblade. With Dimension Hop and a few other minor utility spells, they've got some options, and they're no slouch in the damage department, either.

sofawall
2010-05-28, 09:35 PM
Cleric. :smallamused:

avr
2010-05-28, 09:36 PM
Rangers have plenty of versatility (out of combat by default, and some rangers can have options in combat), but they suffer badly from the D&D rules 'specialists rule!' attitude.

Thurbane
2010-05-28, 09:38 PM
Cleric. :smallamused:
Yeah...no. :smalltongue:

I see what you did there, but Cleric, even with DMM Persist, isn't a full BAB class. At least not when they are in an Antimagic Field...

PId6
2010-05-28, 09:45 PM
Duskblade is an amazing damage dealer, and has some spellcasting for versatility (Scorching Ray for ranged, Resist Energy for protection, etc). It does have very limited spells known, however, so that's an issue.

Barbarian is fantastic at dealing damage, and is more versatile than fighter due to skill points, but ultimately doesn't do much if he can't do what he's built to do (usually charging).

Fighter is a one-trick pony, but you get a few choices as to the trick. Tripping, archery, and charging are the main choices, but you can't do much beyond your one trick. Dungeoncrasher/Zhentarim variants provide a bit more versatility though.

Ranger (archery ranger is the only one worth mentioning) can be decently versatile, with his copious skill points and spellcasting (including wizard spells if you take Sword of the Arcane Order). His damage isn't bad either, though likely lower than the previous three.

Paladin has a few options, and does have spellcasting plus a mount, but probably is weaker than fighter/barbarian/duskblade in terms of pure damage and ranger in terms of versatility.

Hexblade I'm not very familiar with, but it does seem to have a few options with spellcasting and debuffs, though ultimately isn't all that great in either the versatility or damage department.

Swashbuckler is terrible without Daring Outlaw; it's best off just charging like a fighter/barbarian but being worse than both. It has a few social skills, so there's some versatility out of combat, but isn't that great no matter what.

CW Samurai has the option of optimizing Intimidate through the roof, but otherwise isn't worth mentioning.

Knight has some tanking tricks if you do it right, but deals less damage than fighters/barbarians. Versatility is not too high either.

Monk has great versatility due to Use Magic Device, but for some reason doesn't seem to have full bab.


Yeah...no. :smalltongue:

I see what you did there, but Cleric, even with DMM Persist, isn't a full BAB class. At least not when they are in an Antimagic Field...
Initiate of Mystra says hi.

Zaq
2010-05-28, 09:47 PM
The only non-ToB one that has anything going for it, really, is the Duskblade, since WotC's "magic > you" rule partially overrode their deep and abiding hatred of full BAB classes.

Other full BAB classes have a few tricks here and there (Battle Blessing, Test of Mettle, Dungeoncrasher, and your vanilla Shock Leaper all come to mind), but none of them really make for, you know, properly viable and non-boring characters, as far as I'm concerned.

dextercorvia
2010-05-28, 09:53 PM
Divine Crusader. Not a base class, but if you want full BAB, there is nothing to scoff at about getting 9th level spells. Fairly easy entry requirements, too.

PId6
2010-05-28, 09:54 PM
Divine Crusader. Not a base class, but if you want full BAB, there is nothing to scoff at about getting 9th level spells. Fairly easy entry requirements, too.
It's best when used with Sovereign Speaker, so that you get to cast from 10 different domains rather than just one.

HunterOfJello
2010-05-28, 09:55 PM
Wildshape Ranger and Duskblade are your best non-ToB full BAB classes (both are tier 3)


After that you have Barbarian, Ranger, Hexblade, and Fighter (w/ Dungeoncrasher) which are all tier 4

Ponce
2010-05-28, 09:55 PM
Definitely would say paladin. Especially if you toss in a healthy dose of alternate class features and maybe a nice exotic mount. Complete Champion helps too. Honestly I would say it has to fall to one of the core classes just because they're the ones who get pampered in every book.

If not Paladin, then Ranger. Well rounded, but... blahhh...

PId6
2010-05-28, 09:56 PM
After that you have Barbarian, Ranger, Hexblade, Marshall and Fighter (w/ Dungeoncrasher) which are all tier 3
You mean Tier 4.

And Marshal is not full bab (though it should be).

Thurbane
2010-05-28, 10:01 PM
Initiate of Mystra says hi.
Shakes fist at the heavens William Shatner style - Khaaaaan! Reaaaalms!

Eldariel
2010-05-28, 10:01 PM
Divine Crusader. Not a base class, but if you want full BAB, there is nothing to scoff at about getting 9th level spells. Fairly easy entry requirements, too.

It's not full BAB :smallconfused: And the Domains...well, it's a bit unclear if you can actually expand the casting list through them or if you're stuck with just the one domain.


Anyways, I think this is pretty clear-cut:
Damage Output: Duskblade
In-Combat Versatility: Wildshape Ranger
Out-of-Combat Versatility: Wildshape Ranger

Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker probably wins Damage Output if we account for PrCs though and In-Combat Versatility is a close call between Wildshape Ranger and Duskblade, but if Wildshape Ranger is also a Mystic chassis with SoTAO, it'll take it down hands-down with Duskblade's spells and more.


It's also worth noting that Zhentarim Fighter can make for a decent damage dealer (charger), controller (tripper or dungeoncrasher) and intimidator in one packet making it a rather worthwhile character in the end.

HunterOfJello
2010-05-28, 10:02 PM
You mean Tier 4.

And Marshal is not full bab (though it should be).

whoops, fixed.

I thought Marshal was full bab, that's weird. I can't think of a reason it shouldn't be.

Thurbane
2010-05-28, 10:07 PM
Divine Crusader. Not a base class, but if you want full BAB, there is nothing to scoff at about getting 9th level spells. Fairly easy entry requirements, too.
Unfortunately, despite all common sense, Divine Crusader isn't a full BAB class...it uses medium BAB (Cleric/Rogue). I thought the same thing myself for a long time, until someone corrected me.

[/ninja'd]

dextercorvia
2010-05-28, 10:11 PM
My mistake. I have looked at that class at least twice in the last month in the actual book, and thought it was full. I had been drooling up a build less than a week ago. I guess it is the +7BAB prereq. Sorry.

Zergrusheddie
2010-05-28, 10:18 PM
Binder has a loop hole in that. They can add Insight Bonuses to HP, a save, DR, AC, +damage, or +hit. With 3/4 BAB and adding the insight bonus to attack, they basically become Full BAB characters. Even without the awesome Zceryll Vestige, Binders are awesome.

sofawall
2010-05-28, 10:40 PM
Binder has a loop hole in that. They can add Insight Bonuses to HP, a save, DR, AC, +damage, or +hit. With 3/4 BAB and adding the insight bonus to attack, they basically become Full BAB characters. Even without the awesome Zceryll Vestige, Binders are awesome.

Well, number of attacks is relevant as well. Also, prereqs.

Your to-hit will be high. You BAB? Less so.

Mando Knight
2010-05-28, 11:23 PM
Initiate of Mystra says hi.

...Maybe this is the reason why Cyric assassinates Mystra to kick off the 4e version of the Realms...

gorfnab
2010-05-29, 01:15 AM
Wildshape Mystic Ranger is great for versatility especially when combined with Wild Cohort and Sword of the Arcane Order.

Wings of Peace
2010-05-29, 02:29 AM
A Wizard with Arcane Disciple (War) for access to Divine Power :smallcool:

Thespianus
2010-05-29, 03:44 AM
A Wizard with Arcane Disciple (War) for access to Divine Power :smallcool:

If a Wizard runs around with the required 14 in Wisdom to cast Divine Power, I wonder what stat array he used. ;)

Delusion
2010-05-29, 04:09 AM
If a Wizard runs around with the required 14 in Wisdom to cast Divine Power, I wonder what stat array he used. ;)

+wisdom items would work, right?

Ossian
2010-05-29, 04:33 AM
+1 on duskblade, good without multiclassing well into the level progression.
If I were a regular player, that would be my class of choice.

QuantumSteve
2010-05-29, 05:04 AM
It's not full BAB :smallconfused: And the Domains...well, it's a bit unclear if you can actually expand the casting list through them or if you're stuck with just the one domain.

Actually, not so unclear. In the Extra Domains section, CD specifically says:

"If she memorizes spells like a druid, paladin, or ranger, then she can simply choose to memorize one of that domain’s spells instead of one of her usual spells, but never more than one domain spell of each level"

The Divine Crusader is a divine prepared spellcaster who can cast from her entire spell list just like a druid, paladin, or ranger, so this applies to her.
You only get one "Domain Spell" per level, so the rest of your spells must come off your 9 spell long spell list, but it will still greatly increase your spell options.

Note: This only applies to "Extra" domains, such as the ones granted by prestige classes that advance your Divine Crusader Spellcasting. Your Cleric Domains don't count.

Murdim
2010-05-29, 06:12 AM
...Maybe this is the reason why Cyric assassinates Mystra to kick off the 4e version of the Realms...
Mystra is the reason why Cyric assassinates Mystra to kick off the 4e version of the Realms. Everything broken and/or sue-ish in the Forgotten Realms was directly linked to her. Local God Mode Stu Elminster wouldn't be half as much loathed if he wasn't part of a setting-wide pattern of Wesley-ism (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWesley).

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 06:20 AM
Binder with KotSS PrC effectively gets full bab. :smallbiggrin:

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-05-29, 11:13 AM
I like Barbarian preferably with Frezied Berzerker.

He totally wins damage output with ubercharger.

Once you have your core feats for ubercharger you can start branching out. Intimidating rage, a prereq for FB, you have a free action intimidate check once per round while raging with a +10 bonus. No reason you can't follow up with imperious command and that skill trick never outnumbered I think. Now, since you probably have decent reach already, you can branch out into triping/AoO's or Mageslayer/Lockdown you won't be as good as a dedicated build but it'll be something.

Out of Combat you have intimidate and probably survival maxxed out and good perception skills. Also you have the trapkiller ACF that's quite a bit of out of combat utility for someone filling the BSF role.

true_shinken
2010-05-29, 11:17 AM
I'm in love with Mystic Rangers.

No, I really am.

aivanther
2010-05-29, 11:46 AM
I thought Marshal was full bab, that's weird. I can't think of a reason it shouldn't be.

because 3.5 thinks full bab = spellcasting power wise, so avoids full bab whenever it can

Greenish
2010-05-29, 12:48 PM
Monk has great versatility due to Use Magic Device, but for some reason doesn't seem to have full bab.I see what you did there. :smallamused:

I like Barbarian preferably with Frezied Berzerker. He totally wins damage output with ubercharger. Once you have your core feats for ubercharger you can start branching out.Having the basic charger feats is not the same as being Ubercharger (which is a specific TO build).

Optimystik
2010-05-29, 12:54 PM
Binder with KotSS PrC effectively gets full bab. :smallbiggrin:

+16 really, which is all 4 attacks, but they can then put enough bonuses on there to equal or surpass a +20 straight meleer.

If I had to pick a "real" melee class outside ToB though it would probably be a Swashbuckler.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 12:57 PM
+16 really, which is all 4 attacks, but they can then put enough bonuses on there to equal or surpass a +20 straight meleer.

If I had to pick a "real" melee class outside ToB though it would probably be a Swashbuckler.

Which is what I meant, 'effectively'. :smallwink:

Oh, and you do mean the flavor of the swashbuckler, right? Right?

Boci
2010-05-29, 01:09 PM
Which is what I meant, 'effectively'. :smallwink:

Oh, and you do mean the flavor of the swashbuckler, right? Right?

Swashbuckler 16 / Rogue 4 is a decent build (although Swashbuckler 19 / Swordsage 1 is better). Shame you cannot use arcane stunt and daring outlaw in the same build without houserueling.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 01:12 PM
Swashbuckler 16 / Rogue 4 is a decent build (although Swashbuckler 19 / Swordsage 1 is better). Shame you cannot use arcane stunt and daring outlaw in the same build without houserueling.

I know about the daring outlaw, but it still feels lackluster. Ehh, never heard of the swashbuckler/swordsage one, can you give me a link please?

Boci
2010-05-29, 01:15 PM
I know about the daring outlaw, but it still feels lackluster. Ehh, never heard of the swashbuckler/swordsage one, can you give me a link please?

Same as the rogue one, you go swashbuckler 8 / swordsage 1 and take assassin's stance to meet the preqs of daring outlaw that much sooner than if you used rogue.

Use the crystalkeep equivilant of dodge (bonus to AC if you attack with two light weapons), shadow blade for dex to damage. Problem is this build doesn't have penetrating strike for 1/2 SA to those normally immune.

Greenish
2010-05-29, 01:29 PM
Same as the rogue one, you go swashbuckler 8 / swordsage 1 and take assassin's stance to meet the preqs of daring outlaw that much sooner than if you used rogue.Well I'll be damned, that appears to work.

hamishspence
2010-05-29, 02:07 PM
The Soulborn from Magic of Incarnum hasn't been mentioned (but it's one of the worst).

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 02:13 PM
Same as the rogue one, you go swashbuckler 8 / swordsage 1 and take assassin's stance to meet the preqs of daring outlaw that much sooner than if you used rogue.

Use the crystalkeep equivilant of dodge (bonus to AC if you attack with two light weapons), shadow blade for dex to damage. Problem is this build doesn't have penetrating strike for 1/2 SA to those normally immune.

Well, wow. That's awesome, you could even opt to take a few more swordsage levels for more maneuvers by giving up one SA die. :smalleek:

Greenish
2010-05-29, 02:16 PM
Well, wow. That's awesome, you could even opt to take a few more swordsage levels for more maneuvers by giving up one SA die. :smalleek:Heh, personally I'd opt out of Swashbuckler completely. :smallcool:

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 02:18 PM
Heh, personally I'd opt out of Swashbuckler completely. :smallcool:

Hush, don't ruin this moment for me. Seeing the swashbuckler like that is... invigorating. :smallbiggrin:

Boci
2010-05-29, 02:19 PM
Heh, personally I'd opt out of Swashbuckler completely. :smallcool:

True, but near full BAB, +10d6 SA and some other features are enough for a decent build.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-05-29, 02:43 PM
To Greenish: I've seen ubercharger used both as the name of a specific TO build and as description for any character that uses it's tactics.

Greenish
2010-05-29, 02:51 PM
To Greenish: I've seen ubercharger used both as the name of a specific TO build and as description for any character that uses it's tactics.What, like Spellstoring rings with Giant Size, Girallon's Blessing and Polymorph?

Or investing heavily on mental stats as a half-orc? :smallamused:

[Edit]: Ah, I figured it out! Everyone who charges into combat is an übercharger!

Optimystik
2010-05-29, 04:06 PM
The Soulborn from Magic of Incarnum hasn't been mentioned (but it's one of the worst).

It really sucks when a Fighter grabbing Incarnum feats can almost match your meldshaping class' effectiveness :smallfrown:

hamishspence
2010-05-29, 04:09 PM
Yup- I suspect that there are homebrew upgrades for it, to bring it more into line with the incarnate, though.

true_shinken
2010-05-29, 04:16 PM
Same as the rogue one, you go swashbuckler 8 / swordsage 1 and take assassin's stance to meet the preqs of daring outlaw that much sooner than if you used rogue.
You could also go full Swashbuckler and pick up Assassin's Stance with a feat. I believe you'd need Martial Study along the way, too.
You would gain iteratives faster and, well, just keep those d10 Hit Dice coming.

People tend to underestimate the Swashbuckler; it's actually a class with a lot of potential specially with Complete Scoundrel around.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-05-29, 04:33 PM
Greenish, google ubercharger. You will find my usage of the term is not unique. It's used for any character who uses shocktrooper for reckless charge and piles on multipliers. The term has been used to describe Hood and also the commoner ubercharger, one person's response to a commoner optimizing thread.

There are also whole ubercharger threads about various means of ubercharging like a Paladin with charging smite, spirited charge and shocktrooper.

The meanings of words and terms changes over time and this is true to the nth power on the interwebs.

Greenish
2010-05-29, 04:37 PM
The meanings of words and terms changes over time and this is true to the nth power on the interwebs.Doesn't mean I have to agree with it. :smalltongue:

Calling any build with basic charger feats an übercharger like it's some kind of TO cheese just seems wrong.

Mongoose87
2010-05-29, 04:41 PM
You could also go full Swashbuckler and pick up Assassin's Stance with a feat. I believe you'd need Martial Study along the way, too.
You would gain iteratives faster and, well, just keep those d10 Hit Dice coming.

People tend to underestimate the Swashbuckler; it's actually a class with a lot of potential specially with Complete Scoundrel around.

Grab yourself a Truedeath Crystal and one of those other ones that get constructs, and you're in business.

Boci
2010-05-29, 04:53 PM
You could also go full Swashbuckler and pick up Assassin's Stance with a feat. I believe you'd need Martial Study along the way, too.
You would gain iteratives faster and, well, just keep those d10 Hit Dice coming.

People tend to underestimate the Swashbuckler; it's actually a class with a lot of potential specially with Complete Scoundrel around.

No real point though. You're burning 2 feat to gain 1 hp and a single point of BAB. You also loose 4 maneuvers and delay gaining daring outlaw until 15.

Pluto
2010-05-29, 04:56 PM
No real point though. You're burning 2 feat to gain 1 hp and a single point of BAB. You also loose 4 maneuvers and delay gaining daring outlaw until 15.
How are you getting Assassin's Stance with only one Swordsage level and no feats?

edit:
I agree that Swordsage (and Rogue, for that matter) levels are worth the lost BA, though. Even discounting maneuvers and class abilities, the saves and the skills make multiclassing a good choice.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 04:58 PM
How are you getting Assassin's Stance with only one Swordsage level and no feats?

By being level 9 and thus having access to 3rd level maneuvers due to half your non-initiator levels adding to your initiator level.

Pluto
2010-05-29, 05:00 PM
By being level 9 and thus having access to 3rd level maneuvers due to half your non-initiator levels adding to your initiator level."Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one
1st-level stance from any discipline open to you."

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 05:04 PM
"Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one
1st-level stance from any discipline open to you."

Never noticed that, assumed it was the same as maneuvers. :smalleek:

But yeah, Swashbuckler7/Swordsage2 to get Daring Outlaw at level 9 then.

Draz74
2010-05-29, 05:05 PM
"Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one
1st-level stance from any discipline open to you."

Yeah, but ignoring that line is a pretty common houserule (and one, arguably, well in line with the RAI).

PId6
2010-05-29, 05:08 PM
"Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one
1st-level stance from any discipline open to you."
You don't "begin play" if you multiclass in at 9th level. That's a commonly used term for many base classes, but unfortunately was misused in ToB since multiclassing changes what you have access to.

Tavar
2010-05-29, 05:12 PM
Swordage two does give you another bonus, though, since now you add Wisdom to AC.

Pluto
2010-05-29, 05:13 PM
You don't "begin play" if you multiclass in at 9th level. That's a commonly used term for many base classes, but unfortunately was misused in ToB since multiclassing changes what you have access to.
Wow, right you are. I don't think it's clear-cut (is "beginning play" defined anywhere?), but that definitely would make a case for higher level stances from 1-level dips.

Flickerdart
2010-05-29, 05:31 PM
Swordage two does give you another bonus, though, since now you add Wisdom to AC.
Int to damage, Wis to AC, Dex to-hit...if you're going to base stuff off other stuff, might as well stick it all on one.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-05-29, 06:38 PM
Normally that would be true but, all of those bonuses are in addition to the standard stat that goes to them. Also the swordsage ones are aquired with minimal investment so their good even if you just have a ten stat and by a +4 enhancement bonus item at high levels.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-29, 07:54 PM
It would be a little stretched, but if you're going for Shadow Blade, that would make Dex primary with Con, Int and Wis secondary, leaving Cha and Str at 8.

As Hand of Vecna stated, you don't really need to boost Wis too terribly much if you just grab a cheap magic item, so, on 28 point buy, you grab a 16 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Int, and a 10 Wis with 4 points to spare, which could easily boost Con or Int up to 16 or simply get Str and Cha both to 10 or what have you. If Swordsage's AC bonus has a minimum to it, you could just dump Wis, taking Swordsage 2 for the extra stance, BAB, saves, and skills, leaving you with enough points to get an 18.

Assuming that the AC bonus is a minimum of 1, you grab a race that boosts preferably Dex without hurting Con or Int. Eh, I think I've overthought this a bit.

TL;DR: Swordsage 2 is good, but not necessarily for the Wisdom to AC portion of it.

Thurbane
2010-05-29, 08:09 PM
I'm in love with Mystic Rangers.

No, I really am.
I'm not familiar with this one...is it FR, or Dragon Mag?

Boci
2010-05-29, 08:12 PM
I'm not familiar with this one...is it FR, or Dragon Mag?

Dragon mag. Gives up animal companion, melee martial weapons and delays class features in return for better spell casting (more spells, and 6th 5th level spells). All relevant info can be viewed on crystalkeep.

Shooting star variant from champions of valor gives up animal companion in return, endurance and swift tracking in return for 2 new spells, an extra spell slot per spell level and a spell like ability.

Greenish
2010-05-29, 08:24 PM
Dragon mag. Gives up animal companion, melee martial weapons and delays class features in return for better spell casting (more spells, and 6th level spells). All relevant info can be viewed on crystalkeep.Though Crystal Keep only gives Mystic Rangers 5th level spells, tops. Still pretty awesome, especially with SotAO and/or Wildshape variant. Hedge wizard woo!

Boci
2010-05-29, 08:26 PM
Though Crystal Keep only gives Mystic Rangers 5th level spells, tops. Still pretty awesome, especially with SotAO and/or Wildshape variant. Hedge wizard woo!

It says the level 1-4 spells are the same as a standard ranger, it can hyst cast more of them each day.

Come to think of it, Mystic Ranger 17 / Scout 3 swift hunter. Is that a tier 3 build?

Greenish
2010-05-29, 08:37 PM
It says the level 1-4 spells are the same as a standard ranger, it can hyst cast more of them each day.I meant that mystic ranger gets up to 5th level spells (as opposed to 6th level spells). They also gain 0th level spells.

Come to think of it, Mystic Ranger 17 / Scout 3 swift hunter. Is that a tier 3 build?With a way of moving and full attacking, most likely. Mystic Ranger delays favoured enemy progression which is a minor annoyance. Wildshape ranger with a form that gives pounce would be pretty vicious charger with spells and skills to fall back to.

Boci
2010-05-29, 08:40 PM
I meant that mystic ranger gets up to 5th level spells (as opposed to 6th level spells). They also gain 0th level spells.

Right you are, my mistake.


With a way of moving and full attacking, most likely. Mystic Ranger delays favoured enemy progression which is a minor annoyance. Wildshape ranger with a form that gives pounce would be pretty vicious charger with spells and skills to fall back to.

I was thinking greater many shot, with the odd swift action arrow buff spell.

Mongoose87
2010-05-29, 08:43 PM
Wildshape ranger with a form that gives pounce would be pretty vicious charger with spells and skills to fall back to.

Kinda starting to get into "Why don't you just play a druid?" territory.

Greenish
2010-05-29, 08:46 PM
Kinda starting to get into "Why don't you just play a druid?" territory.True, but it'll help you not to break the game by accident. Wizard spells and more skills is nice too.

Thurbane
2010-05-29, 08:48 PM
Hmmm, Mystic Ranger looks like it might work well with the Knight of the Raven PrC.