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Mystic Muse
2010-05-29, 12:47 AM
Simple question. How high does SR have to be before it's worth using? Is it worth using at all considering how easy it usually is to get past it if you know it's there? What is the playground's opinion on how high it has to be before being useful?

dextercorvia
2010-05-29, 12:53 AM
You want SR at least 10 higher than the CL of enemies you are likely to face. This gives those spells a 50% miss chance.

peacenlove
2010-05-29, 12:54 AM
Simple question. How high does SR have to be before it's worth using? Is it worth using at all considering how easy it usually is to get past it if you know it's there? What is the playground's opinion on how high it has to be before being useful?

For DM's i can't answer, depends on the party and spells used.

For players, its an additional layer of defense so tanky characters who stack defenses should acquire it. The Spell resistance cleric spell is all the protection you need since most monsters can't increase their innate caster level and its the most practical and cheap since it can be cast after all buffs have been cast and / or as a quickened action with a DMM Quicken feat. Anything else is just too expensive (comes with LA or with loads of gold pieces).

Temotei
2010-05-29, 12:56 AM
You want SR at least 10 higher than the CL of enemies you are likely to face. This gives those spells a 50% miss chance.

Assuming these are spells allowing spell resistance to work.

gbprime
2010-05-29, 12:56 AM
You want SR at least 10 higher than the CL of enemies you are likely to face. This gives those spells a 50% miss chance.

Agreed. 10 or 11 higher than your own level will keep some heat off of you.

5 higher than your own level is not worth spending money or feats on. You
effectively end up spending a fortune for a 20% miss chance.

Eurus
2010-05-29, 12:58 AM
Well, most monsters don't tend to use things like Assay Spell Resistance, stack CL boosters, or even have particularly good caster levels. 5 + your hit dice might not be much against a lich with a CR of your party's ECL + 4, but against some monster with a few SLAs it could be very convenient. So really, it seems like SR is more useful for PCs than it is for monsters.

As for exactly how much is useful... well, theoretically anything higher than the enemy's CL + 1 is useful, but ideally you want somewhere between CL + 11 and CL + 21.

dextercorvia
2010-05-29, 01:02 AM
You want SR at least 10 higher than the CL of enemies you are likely to face. This gives those spells a 50% miss chance.
Assuming these are spells allowing spell resistance to work.

I assumed the antecedent was clear.

Kamai
2010-05-29, 01:02 AM
SR is really almost never high enough. If you are playing in a low-optimization game, 8-16+your own level should be enough to function, though it makes it harder to get friendly spells on you (need a standard action to drop SR by RAW). This has you bouncing off equal level casters no less than 20% of the time, though 8+level risks not bouncing spells at all from a caster at level+4. If you face a lot of casters at level+4, you need closer to that 16 for it to really matter.

Once we leave low-optimization (and low levels of high-optimization), if SR matters (so many SR:no spells), between CL boosters, Spell Penetration Boosters, and Assay Spell Resistance, you may need 25-35+level for it to even start to matter. This may even be enough to get you to the 50% percent range if there aren't too many of these tricks used.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-29, 01:03 AM
On items its almost never worth it as the cost is to high however the 12+ Caster level from say the 5th level spell is certainly useful. Just because it can be overcome rather easily doesn't mean its not decent protection.

Or if your encountering lower level casting creatures nearly every encounter an item granting SR like a mantle of spell resistance may be useful.

Many save or die effects are subject to SR. finder of death, domination, holding spells[if an enemy is adjacent to coup de grace you] the list goes on.

And of course, if the enemy has spell penetration, greater spell penetration, a few assay SR's and other stuff invested in overcoming SR. Well all those would be a waste if you walked in without any SR. All those resources could have been better spent.

And if SR wasn't useful people wouldn't stack as many things as possible to try and overcome it.

*funny trick* I got the wizard in the group I DM to blow his assay spell resistance on an illusion of the enemy*

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-05-29, 01:04 AM
Just to note, a lot of SLAs replicate SR:No spells.

Temotei
2010-05-29, 01:06 AM
I assumed the antecedent was clear.

"Those spells" was never clarified. One should assume that "those spells" means spells cast by your enemies, based on your statement.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-29, 01:07 AM
Just to note, a lot of SLAs replicate SR:No spells.

Just to note, A LOT MORE SLAs replicate SR: Yes spells.

dextercorvia
2010-05-29, 01:16 AM
"Those spells" was never clarified. One should assume that "those spells" means spells cast by your enemies, based on your statement.

Again, I assumed that in a thread about SR, we would all know that SR only works on spells that SR works on. Hence in any statement referring to SR having an effect, it would have an effect on a spell that allows SR. Clearly, I assumed too much.

Temotei
2010-05-29, 01:17 AM
Again, I assumed that in a thread about SR, we would all know that SR only works on spells that SR works on. Hence in any statement referring to SR having an effect, it would have an effect on a spell that allows SR. Clearly, I assumed too much.

Clearly. :smallamused:

Runestar
2010-05-29, 01:23 AM
Against a wizard with assay resistance and arcane mastery, nothing less than 20+caster lv. :smallamused:

Superglucose
2010-05-29, 01:26 AM
The answer is: SR is never really worth going for. Having it is nice, but it's kind of like... high dex as a Wizard. If you could choose between boosting Dex, Con, or Int you always choose Int, then Con, then Dex. SR is beyond a tertiary stat... any money you're putting into SR is better put into saves or other defenses first.

There are just too many ways to get around it.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-29, 01:28 AM
Against a wizard with assay resistance and arcane mastery, nothing less than 20+caster lv. :smallamused:

Typically when fighting a wizard whose a threat you'll have to cast dispel magic on him. Hopefully he's prepared assay SR for every enemy with backups. And doesn't accidentally target an illusion of you with his assay SR instead of the real you.

Temotei
2010-05-29, 01:34 AM
Typically when fighting a wizard whose a threat you'll have to cast dispel magic on him. Hopefully he's prepared assay SR for every enemy with backups. And doesn't accidentally target an illusion of you with his assay SR instead of the real you.

He's a wizard. True seeing.

QuantumSteve
2010-05-29, 01:43 AM
10 or 11 + Level is where you want to live. So, if you're a Cleric, or have access to one, great. But even scrolls of Spell Resistance are too expensive, in terms of WBL anyway, and forget about magic items.

Kalirren
2010-05-29, 02:31 AM
It depends on the campaign you run. If your DM is like mine and makes you deal with organizations of mooks and mobs and disallows Assay Resistance, SR is actually quite useful, because you tend to be higher level than them. For one thing, it's a way of avoiding having your mind read by every cloistered cleric out there.

Magic items of SR are completely overpriced. SR is like a sixth finger - nice to have, not to be sought.