PDA

View Full Version : Shadowrun 4th and lethality



Cirrylius
2010-05-29, 01:52 AM
So I've just started up a Shadowrun 4th ed. game, heavy on character and roleplaying (for a SR game, anyway), so I want to make the game less dangerous for characters. I assumed that if I slightly dumbed down the relevant combat abilities of adversaries, when they do fight, then I could keep the game from being too lethal to bother with a character background.

What I'm finding is that even very basic opponents, if played cleverly, and present in a 1 or 1.5/1 ratio, can blow through a player in just a couple of rounds; but if I subtract from their ability any further the encounter becomes farcical.

Has anyone had any success reducing the lethality of Shadowrun 4th but kept the challenge, or at least the illusion of challenge?

QuantumSteve
2010-05-29, 02:00 AM
Shadowrun is supposed to be lethal, the best I can think of is to reduce enemy Build Points and lower attributes and skills. Perhaps give the enemies inferior equipment; homebrew crappy guns and armor if you have to.

IMO, lethality is the name of the game in ShadowRun.

Rule #1 Don't get in fire fights
Rule #2 If you do get in a firefight, get behind cover 5 minutes ago.
Rule #3 End fire fights ASAP; If you can't kill everyone, then GTFO

Kinda like real life. It's just how that battle system rolls.

You could also look at GURPS Cyberpunk for a less lethal system, or hombrew a Shadowrun d20 of somekind.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-29, 02:10 AM
If your game is heavy on the "character and roleplaying" then why are your PCs getting into so many pitched battles? :smallconfused:

Admittedly, SR remains a combat-focused system, but that doesn't mean you have to run it that way. Emphasize the overwhelming power of your enemies; attach nuyen bonuses for "quiet" runs; spend more time focusing on the legwork part of the runs.

Bad comes to worst, teach your players to fight intelligently. On their first run, partner them with a "grizzled commander" type who instructs them on the smart way to run. By showing them how to use their powers once, hopefully they'll catch on for future fights.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-29, 05:40 AM
Well their is always morale and simple sensibility. My face ended an a fight simply by killing the boss and asking how many of them wanted to risk dying for no nuyen. [dead men pay no cred].

Mooks and other such guys may simply decided to lay down after getting injured rather then fighting to the death. If half them are gone theirs a good chance the half left alive should vacate the premises.

So you can make it easier by having the enemies behave realistically in the manner that they don't want to die and we'll flee, surrender or play dead should the tide go a different way.

Enemies using non lethal weapons is also a way to go. Corp Security wants to maintain an image and avoid any accusations of excessive force. [even when the force is justified]. They also might want to interrogate the runners on who hired them.

Of course that won't help when the runners do battle with other criminals. Then again stick-and-shock is more effective then regular bullets.

Here's something normally to use the dodge skill against gunfire it requires you give up your attacks during that Initiative pass to do so. Otherwise you roll straight reaction. [discounting say the adept power combat sense].
If you always got dodge+reaction vs ranged attacks that make it more survivable for the PC's

*Burning a permanent point of edge can save you from death*
So remind PC's to spend edge if an attack looks like its going to do some severe damage.

My face adept has narrowly avoiding blows, most every run by spending edge. Either to avoid gunfire or to boost his commanding voice power so six enemies with SMG's throw them at his feet.
"Better to be hit with the gun then the bullet"

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-29, 08:22 AM
Enemies using non lethal weapons is also a way to go. Corp Security wants to maintain an image and avoid any accusations of excessive force. [even when the force is justified].


:confused:

Unless the SR fluff has changed a lot since 3rd, I can't imagine any Corp shedding a tear when they rip the filthy troll merc in half with a MMG. Hell, most Megacorps have entire divisions devoted to exerting excessive force!

The interrogation line is probably a better route, but how often are Corps really going to keep the poor scrags alive after interrogation?

Bharg
2010-05-29, 08:27 AM
Well their is always morale and simple sensibility. My face ended an a fight simply by killing the boss and asking how many of them wanted to risk dying for no nuyen. [dead men pay no cred].

Mooks and other such guys may simply decided to lay down after getting injured rather then fighting to the death. If half them are gone theirs a good chance the half left alive should vacate the premises.

So you can make it easier by having the enemies behave realistically in the manner that they don't want to die and we'll flee, surrender or play dead should the tide go a different way.

Enemies using non lethal weapons is also a way to go. Corp Security wants to maintain an image and avoid any accusations of excessive force. [even when the force is justified]. They also might want to interrogate the runners on who hired them.

Of course that won't help when the runners do battle with other criminals. Then again stick-and-shock is more effective then regular bullets.

Here's something normally to use the dodge skill against gunfire it requires you give up your attacks during that Initiative pass to do so. Otherwise you roll straight reaction. [discounting say the adept power combat sense].
If you always got dodge+reaction vs ranged attacks that make it more survivable for the PC's

*Burning a permanent point of edge can save you from death*
So remind PC's to spend edge if an attack looks like its going to do some severe damage.

My face adept has narrowly avoiding blows, most every run by spending edge. Either to avoid gunfire or to boost his commanding voice power so six enemies with SMG's throw them at his feet.
"Better to be hit with the gun then the bullet"

The world the characters of Shadowrun live in is dark and unforgiving, lethal, so there have to be very good reasons for them to try to make a living from running. Pick a wrong job from the wrong Smith, one bad decision and you're dead. Always know that you are expendable to others. Trust noone.

It's up to your players when to decide to actually take the risk to work in the shadows - instead of working in a restaurant that sells soyburgers and fries - and when to go on vacation only checking out "Dante's Inferno" for example...

Giving the enemies an instinct of self-preservation is definitely a good start. Also depending on their personality, training or combat experience you don't have to let them act too professional. A simple fatty security officer will not be too confident or brave, when encountering a group of runners, probably has a little family to look after - though there might be the stereotypical hero with little common sense or instinct of selfpreservation that hides first and then breaks out guns blazing - and is likely to use moderate force. Gangers may be less cautious, more violent, become quickly overconfident - especially in bigger groups or even mobs - and may use little to no group tactics. Runners vary. A coporate commando squad is likely to overwhelm your group with perfectly coordinated attacks - so leg it unless you are accompanied by enough cannon fodder to distract them while you're at work and at least to secure your exit.

Non lethal will will not be used too often. There is not much a runner will be able to tell you and after interraogation and torture they are usually dispoed of anyway.

Burning edge is recommendable. After all it is of no use if your character is already dead.

comicshorse
2010-05-29, 08:37 AM
Posted by Oracle_Hunter

The interrogation line is probably a better route, but how often are Corps really going to keep the poor scrags alive after interrogation?

Conssidering how much talent and money the average runner has just shooting them is a terrible waste. Whereas cortex bombs and blood samples for ritual magic can ensure they work off their sentence as Corporate assets ( and gives you a reason not to kill the P.C.s and a whole new line of possible stories)

I'd also point out that even ignoring this the P.C.s treatment will very much depend on them. If they get caught doing a bloodless data steal then a prison sentence seems appropriate on the other hand if they drenched the halls in blood they are much more likely to be 'shot trying to escape'

In one of my games the one of the P.C.s managed to plea bargain himself down to 5-10 and then set up a really fun run as the rest of the group tracked him down and planned a prison break

Bharg
2010-05-29, 08:39 AM
Posted by Oracle_Hunter
Conssidering how much talent and money the average runner has just shooting them is a terrible waste. Whereas cortex bombs and blood samples for ritual magic can ensure they work off their sentence as Corporate assets ( and gives you a reason not to kill the P.C.s and a whole new line of possible stories)

I'd also point out that even ignoring this the P.C.s treatment will very much depend on them. If they get caught doing a bloodless data steal then a prison sentence seems appropriate on the other hand if they drenched the halls in blood they are much more likely to be 'shot trying to escape'

To continue playing after your PC was reprogrammed sounds interesting...

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-29, 08:54 AM
Conssidering how much talent and money the average runner has just shooting them is a terrible waste. Whereas cortex bombs and blood samples for ritual magic can ensure they work off their sentence as Corporate assets ( and gives you a reason not to kill the P.C.s and a whole new line of possible stories)

I'd also point out that even ignoring this the P.C.s treatment will very much depend on them. If they get caught doing a bloodless data steal then a prison sentence seems appropriate on the other hand if they drenched the halls in blood they are much more likely to be 'shot trying to escape'

In one of my games the one of the P.C.s managed to plea bargain himself down to 5-10 and then set up a really fun run as the rest of the group tracked him down and planned a prison break
You gotta remember a few things

(1) Shadowrunners are a dime a dozen
Sure, maybe some stingy suit is going to think that a cortex bomb or ritual magic is cheaper than hiring a team off the streets, but most Johnsons would prefer to throw some cash around rather than risk losing control of a band of highly trained (and pissed off) sociopaths. Not to mention that any megacorp worth its private army has a half-dozen equally-trained (and loyal) Black Ops teams hanging around for non-suicide missions.

(2) It's expensive to liquidate assets when they go rogue
Cortex bombs can be removed, and blood samples have an annoying habit of going missing. Plus every team you catch (if they're worth anything) is perfectly capable of infiltrating your base and blowing stuff up - including possibly you, Mr. Johnson.

And, from a story perspective, you're stuck between "paper tiger corps" and "permanent thrall." Either the Corp is dumb and it's easy to get out of their control, or they've locked your controls in a Secure Depot and they'll detonate the moment something strange happens. Worse, the next Corp that captures the 'runners is just going to liquidate them - either when they notice the cortex bombs, or after one too many Corps are hanging onto the blood samples of the team.

Bharg
2010-05-29, 09:28 AM
You gotta remember a few things

(1) Shadowrunners are a dime a dozen
Sure, maybe some stingy suit is going to think that a cortex bomb or ritual magic is cheaper than hiring a team off the streets, but most Johnsons would prefer to throw some cash around rather than risk losing control of a band of highly trained (and pissed off) sociopaths. Not to mention that any megacorp worth its private army has a half-dozen equally-trained (and loyal) Black Ops teams hanging around for non-suicide missions.

(2) It's expensive to liquidate assets when they go rogue
Cortex bombs can be removed, and blood samples have an annoying habit of going missing. Plus every team you catch (if they're worth anything) is perfectly capable of infiltrating your base and blowing stuff up - including possibly you, Mr. Johnson.

And, from a story perspective, you're stuck between "paper tiger corps" and "permanent thrall." Either the Corp is dumb and it's easy to get out of their control, or they've locked your controls in a Secure Depot and they'll detonate the moment something strange happens. Worse, the next Corp that captures the 'runners is just going to liquidate them - either when they notice the cortex bombs, or after one too many Corps are hanging onto the blood samples of the team.

(1) The main reason you hire a runner is that they are not connected with your corporation, cheap and of course expendable. Likely your own corporate teams are better trained, coordinated and even equipped with cyber- and bioware someone as a runner will never ever get his hands on. An AAA Smith would probably eliminate a whole team of runners single-handedly if he needs to.

Huh, but aren't there other ways to control a individual than threatening to blow his brains up? Like some cyberware or use magic and hypnosis to change his entire personality, turm him into a loyal wage slave. Some corporates have trained specialists to do so.

comicshorse
2010-05-29, 09:33 AM
Posted by Oracle_Hunter

And, from a story perspective, you're stuck between "paper tiger corps" and "permanent thrall.

That's why I said 'working their sentence off'. Each mission knocks time off the sentence until they have paid their debt to society

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-29, 09:50 AM
That's why I said 'working their sentence off'. Each mission knocks time off the sentence until they have paid their debt to society
If you've enslaved a group of 'runners and plan on letting them go free at some point - you're doing it wrong :smalltongue:

@Bharg: All the more reason to actually hire some other guys anonymously instead of sending out people who not only know who actually hired them but has a reason to screw them over if they get the chance.

And brainwashing the PCs is not optimal from a metagame perspective. It's not a fun game when the DM takes over your RP... permanently.

Bharg
2010-05-29, 10:09 AM
If you've enslaved a group of 'runners and plan on letting them go free at some point - you're doing it wrong :smalltongue:

@Bharg: All the more reason to actually hire some other guys anonymously instead of sending out people who not only know who actually hired them but has a reason to screw them over if they get the chance.

And brainwashing the PCs is not optimal from a metagame perspective. It's not a fun game when the DM takes over your RP... permanently.

You have to be a very, very nice corporate to do that. :smallwink:

I know that. I didn't want to argue that it's better for a corp to send their own people on a shadowrun. :smallconfused: That the client cannot be tracked is priceless and there are... some good runners you can entrust with more important jobs. You only have to grab and hire them before they can bite the dust for someone else... in the shadows.

Seconds. I just wasn't sure if the brainwashing thing was even possible because I just reat it in a novel, in a nice novel though.

comicshorse
2010-05-29, 10:28 AM
Posted by Oracle-Hunter

(1) Shadowrunners are a dime a dozen
No they're not. The average Shadowrunner has tens of thousands of NuYen of gear and cyberware or magic powers only available to a tiny fraction of the population, Not to mention skills that have the average Corp. Security looking like a school kid. To waste all that money and talent is silly


risk losing control of a band of highly trained (and pissed off) sociopaths.
Well yes if the Shadowrunners are sociopaths they are going to kill them. See 'shot trying to escape', but a professional teams are a valuable asset


Not to mention that any megacorp worth its private army has a half-dozen equally-trained (and loyal) Black Ops teams hanging around for non-suicide missions.
Yes they do but they always need more. Hence why Shadowrunners exist
in the first place


Cortex bombs can be removed, and blood samples have an annoying habit of going missing.
Yes they can but its NOT easy it is in fact very difficult if done right. And very deadly if there is the slightest slip up. Dangerous enough to convince smart Shadowrunners that its better odds to do the missions than to risk it.


Plus every team you catch (if they're worth anything) is perfectly capable of infiltrating your base and blowing stuff up - including possibly you, Mr. Johnson.

Well why on earth are they let out of sight long enough to do that. You send them out on missions, monitored and when its done they go back to Corp facility until the next mission. Repeat until sentence is paid off.


And, from a story perspective, you're stuck between "paper tiger corps" and "permanent thrall." Either the Corp is dumb and it's easy to get out of their control, or they've locked your controls in a Secure Depot and they'll detonate the moment something strange happens. Worse, the next Corp that captures the 'runners is just going to liquidate them - either when they notice the cortex bombs, or after one too many Corps are hanging onto the blood samples of the team.
Well no. The Corp. takes sensible precautions and the 'Runners work until its paid off.
Yes if the the Runners get caught on a Corp mission they are probably toast but hey they screwed up twice in a row, life is harsh


f you've enslaved a group of 'runners and plan on letting them go free at some point - you're doing it wrong

Why ?
If you treat them like **** then maybe so but how about the Corp. behave professionally. The 'Runners get caught, they do the sentence. They can go back for revenge but revenge is a dangerous and non-profitable way to risk your lives. ( and if they were treated decently revenge for what ?).
This is also a reason for picking a sentence and sticking to it. If you're never gonna let the 'Runners go then they have nothing to lose by seeking to break out and screw you over no matter how insanely dangerous it is.
Instead keep to your word and get the work out of them. ( and the word will get out that you can trust Corp. X on this making the next team easier to deal with)

Posted by Bharg

You have to be a very, very nice corporate to do that.
No you'd just have to be professional


Seconds. I just wasn't sure if the brainwashing thing was even possible because I just reat it in a novel, in a nice novel though
Way back when I think in one of the supplements there were ICE programmes that conditioned the Decker to loyalty to the Corp. Not zombiefied obviously spotted loyalty but a certain feeling of liking and duty.
Obviously that would take a subtle bit of Roleplaying and the P.C.s agreement. Generally P.C.s are understandably averse to being told what their characters feel

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-29, 10:45 AM
Why ?
If you treat them like **** then maybe so but how about the Corp. behave professionally. The 'Runners get caught, they do the sentence. They can go back for revenge but revenge is a dangerous and non-profitable way to risk your lives. ( and if they were treated decently revenge for what ?).
I'm pretty sure "placing a cortex bomb in their head and forcing them to do runs for inadequate compensation" is sufficient reason to get revenge :smalltongue:

Listen, we're talking about 'runners caught while attacking Corp interests. These are not "tried and trusted 'runners" or even random 'runners some Mr. Johnson picked up a bar - these are guys who were already willing to attack your Corp and were caught while doing it! There is nothing to recommend using these 'runners instead of any of the other 'runners hanging around the Shadows in Seattle - and a lot to argue against them.

And yes, 'runners are a dime of dozen - from the perspective of the Corp. These are not "adventurers" from D&D; in a world where you can buy muscles and even a veteran soldier risks death when facing a punk with a Ruger Superwarhawk, you do not need to have any special Destiny to be a 'runner - even a good one. 'Runners are explicitly hired when it is both too risky and too inconvenient to risk normal corporate assets - they're not the elites, they're the red shirts.

I'm not entirely sure where you're getting the idea that Corps are nice enough to honor contracts with street trash, but you got to remember that this a game where one of the intro stories involves the parents of a teenage decker being tortured to death by their own employers in a vain attempt to get information about the decker that the parents didn't even have.

If they're willing to do that to loyal employees, why in the world would they ever free enslaved 'runners? :smallconfused:

BTW - that story was from the start of 2nd Edition Sourcebook. The story from he 3rd Edition Sourcebook involved a Corp sending a second team of 'runners to wipe out the first squad so that they couldn't potentially reveal information they didn't really know. Did they sissify the 4th Edition?

Bharg
2010-05-29, 11:06 AM
No they're not. The average Shadowrunner has tens of thousands of NuYen of gear and cyberware or magic powers only available to a tiny fraction of the population, Not to mention skills that have the average Corp. Security looking like a school kid. To waste all that money and talent is silly

Most people that become runners have serious financial issues in the first place, So the character generation in this point is kinda questionable, I guess. Everybody can become a runner so their skills are not that much better and even though runs are extremely dangerous and the corps can use their money for things, you wouldn't because you appreciate money, the pay is often baaad.
Corps also hire mages and hackers and riggers for different tasks. Runners are not made up of more mages than the normal population.
If you are already a runner with a good reputation killing could at least be considered to be a waste...


Well yes if the Shadowrunners are sociopaths they are going to kill them. See 'shot trying to escape', but a professional teams are a valuable asset

F-quality cyberware! Yay, insta-sociopathy!



Yes they do but they always need more. Hence why Shadowrunners exist
in the first place

They need them, because they don't want an open war with other powerful corporations.


Yes they can but its NOT easy it is in fact very difficult if done right. And very deadly if there is the slightest slip up. Dangerous enough to convince smart Shadowrunners that its better odds to do the missions than to risk it.

A lot of shadowdocs actually don't want to get blown to bits themelves while trying to disarm a runner, I agree.


No you'd just have to be professional

Cleaning house is much safer and they planned to screw with your stuff at a certain point anyway.



Way back when I think in one of the supplements there were ICE programmes that conditioned the Decker to loyalty to the Corp. Not zombiefied obviously spotted loyalty but a certain feeling of liking and duty.
Obviously that would take a subtle bit of Roleplaying and the P.C.s agreement. Generally P.C.s are understandably averse to being told what their characters feel

I agree. Breaking free from such a programming could also be interesting to roleplay, though.

comicshorse
2010-05-29, 11:19 AM
Posted by Oracle_Hunter

I'm pretty sure "placing a cortex bomb in their head and forcing them to do runs for inadequate compensation" is sufficient reason to get revenge

Really cause I'm not. Seriously thousands of people commit crimes and go to prison every year how many of them come out and seek revenge on the government ?
Yes it's not the P.C.s first choice of how to spend their time but they lost, they got caught. And revenge is very unprofitable


There is nothing to recommend using these 'runners instead of any of the other 'runners hanging around the Shadows in Seattle
Well apart form the fact you don't have to pay them


I'm not entirely sure where you're getting the idea that Corps are nice enough to honor contracts with street trash,
And I'm not sure where the idea that Corps start the day with an order of fried babies came from. They are Professionals in the same business the P.C.s are in.
And they honour the contract for the same reason they pay Shadowrunners who do jobs for them get paid and not gunned down to save on the cash. If you do that, the word gets out and nobody works for you again.

The whole idea of crooks working off their sentence isn't eactly a new one. D.C. comics has the Suicide Squad, Cyberpunk has the penal mercenary units, The Dirty Dozen movie. Or if you want a real example the allieds freed 'Lucky' Luciano in WW2 to help wipe up civilian resistance in Sciliy.

Posted by Bhurg

F-quality cyberware! Yay, insta-sociopathy!
This I must have missed.Please explain more

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-29, 11:34 AM
And I'm not sure where the idea that Corps start the day with an order of fried babies came from. They are Professionals in the same business the P.C.s are in.

And they honour the contract for the same reason they pay Shadowrunners who do jobs for them get paid and not gunned down to save on the cash. If you do that, the word gets out and nobody works for you again.

The whole idea of crooks working off their sentence isn't eactly a new one. D.C. comics has the Suicide Squad, Cyberpunk has the penal mercenary units, The Dirty Dozen movie. Or if you want a real example the allieds freed 'Lucky' Luciano in WW2 to help wipe up civilian resistance in Sciliy.
Yeah, none of those are Cyberpunk. Not the "comic book" cyberpunk - I mean William Gibson Cyberpunk. You could have your PCs go rescue a princess from Dunkelzahn for a Weapon Focus if you want, but that's not exactly a "genre appropriate" 'run either :smalltongue:

And they're not in the same business as the PCs! The PCs are Shadowrunners - their "business" is doing illegal stuff for the highest bidder. The megacorps are multinational businesses intent on turning a profit and/or gaining Real Ultimate Power. "Honor among thieves" is all well and good, but it doesn't apply between the hired help and the soulless megacorp.

Also: I did refer to canon sources describing how megacorps treat their employees. Unless 4th Edition is dramatically different in tone from every previous edition of Shadowrun, I don't see how you can possibly imagine that a corp would play it straight with enslaved runners. People they hire, I can see - but once you've already stuck a bomb in someone's head, they're going to harbor some ill will towards you.

EDIT: Oh, and you do know what they do to criminal in Shadowrun, right?

If LoneStar gets you, they throw you in jail, slap you with a criminal SIN and let you out when they feel like it.

If someone else gets you and you're SINless... you're never heard from again. I mean, it's not like anyone's going to miss you.

comicshorse
2010-05-29, 11:44 AM
And they're not in the same business as the PCs! The PCs are Shadowrunners - their "business" is doing illegal stuff for the highest bidder.

And the Corps. the 'Runners will be dealing with ( at least in this scenario) are Corporate Security, a huge part of their job is to conduct sabatoage and assassination runs against their rivals. In other words doing illegal stuff


"Honor among thieves" is all well and good, but it doesn't apply between the hired help and the soulless megacorp.
Then how do Shadowrunners ever deal with the Corporations when they cannot be trusted in the slightest ?


Also: I did refer to canon sources describing how megacorps treat their employees.
You refered to one source. There are plenty of sources where the Runners do the jobs they are hired for and get paid as they were promised


If LoneStar gets you, they throw you in jail, slap you with a criminal SIN and let you out when they feel like it.

If someone else gets you and you're SINless... you're never heard from again. I mean, it's not like anyone's going to miss you.
Sounds a good reason to me to acceppt their offer to work for them


You could have your PCs go rescue a princess from Dunkelzahn for a Weapon Focus
No but you could have a scenario where you have to rescue Dunkelzahn from a princess:smallsmile:

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-29, 11:50 AM
You refered to one source. There are plenty of sources where the Runners do the jobs they are hired for and get paid as they were promised
Two sources, from Sourcebooks - which is two more than you've cited :smalltongue:

More importantly, we're not talking about "jobs they are hired for" we're talking about "jobs they were forced to do for no money." World of difference.

Don't believe me? See how much you like your boss when he decides to put a cortex bomb in your head and says "I'll take it out in 20 years instead of paying you" :smallamused:

comicshorse
2010-05-29, 11:54 AM
Don't believe me? See how much you like your boss when he decides to put a cortex bomb in your head and says "I'll take it out in 20 years instead of paying you"

Depends if the option is 20 years in maximum security being Bubba the troll's special friend
Though I'd be thinking maybe one run=2 years in prison, assume 4-6 for a break-in and attempted data steal. You'd need to do 3 runs ( though this would be up to individual G.M.s interpretation)


Two sources, from Sourcebooks - which is two more than you've cited

Do you really want me to cite every source where the Runers get paid for doing their job, cause I did have plans for this weekend:smallsmile:

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-29, 12:06 PM
"Runners get paid decently for successfully executing a job." How does this contradict the claim that "Runners are extremely expendable to the corporation"?

Bharg
2010-05-29, 12:15 PM
Posted by Oracle_Hunter
And I'm not sure where the idea that Corps start the day with an order of fried babies came from. They are Professionals in the same business the P.C.s are in.
And they honour the contract for the same reason they pay Shadowrunners who do jobs for them get paid and not gunned down to save on the cash. If you do that, the word gets out and nobody works for you again.
Word doesn't get out, because runners don't know if they work for you.



Posted by Bhurg Bharg

F-quality cyberware! Yay, insta-sociopathy!
This I must have missed.Please explain more
As far as I know, the quality of cyber- and bioware differs. Better quality means less humanity loss. And the really good stuff is hard to acquire if you are not developing and producing it.


And the Corps. the 'Runners will be dealing with ( at least in this scenario) are Corporate Security, a huge part of their job is to conduct sabatoage and assassination runs against their rivals. In other words doing illegal stuff
Only the executives and their Smiths or Johnsons know about the really bad stuff. Unofficial stuff. The wage slaves shouldn't be unsettled.


Then how do Shadowrunners ever deal with the Corporations when they cannot be trusted in the slightest ?
They offer jobs and they pay. The Johnson may not tell you everything that is vital or even lie to you. If you are really, really lucky you even get to touch vital data (*irony*). You do not want that to happen. There is a lot of risk involved.


By the way: Do you know how Dunkelzahn was assassinated? I mean... He was a DRAGON? Was he in human form or was he shot down by a jet fighter?

comicshorse
2010-05-29, 12:27 PM
By the way: Do you know how Dunkelzahn was assassinated? I mean... He was a DRAGON? Was he in human form or was he shot down by a jet fighter?

I believe he was in human form at the time but still nobody knows how it was done. The site of the assassination is a void in astral, totally devoid of magic and life. Nobody knows (or admits to knowing) how the hell that could be done.


less humanity loss.
Humanity loss is in Cyberpunk, Shadowrun has Essence loss which doesn't affect you mentally

SlyGuyMcFly
2010-05-29, 12:29 PM
The big bad profit-obsessed corporation can:

a) Force the guys dumb enough to get captured to work for them.

b) Kill the guys they caught and then hire a bunch of other guys who, chances are, are not as dumb as the first bunch.

Oh, and b) is probably a lot cheaper too.

The only reason you'd go for a) is that you know the perps you caught have something that you know only they can offer. And can't torture out of them or what have you.

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-29, 12:33 PM
Speaking impartially, I can't help but feel the 'Corporations are allowed to do the sensible thing and actually skip the fried baby breakfast when it would be profitable' angle not only makes more sense, it also makes for more interesting narrative possibilities and goes much further towards aiding with the OP's concerns.

Do we really need another rousing chorus of 'You're doing it Wrong'?
Also, stop having fun, guys!
If nothing else, you cannot draw many resources from, nor derive overly much power from a cadaver, whereas an 'indentured employee' could, managed correctly, be quite profitable.

And okay, maybe trying to use such a party in that way would be a mistake by the corporation in question.

But who says they aren't allowed to make mistakes, if it makes the story more interesting, allows the players more options for fun, and fits with the GM's plans better? :smallsmile:

comicshorse
2010-05-29, 12:34 PM
Posted by Even Human

a) Force the guys dumb enough to get captured to work for them.

b) Kill the guys they caught and then hire a bunch of other guys who, chances are, are not as dumb as the first bunch.

Oh, and b) is probably a lot cheaper too

How is hiring people cheaper than using people you don't have to pay ?

EDIT: Ah because you don't have to insert cortex bombs etc, yes ? I still think as the captured runners would be good for several runs it would work out cheaper

SlyGuyMcFly
2010-05-29, 12:48 PM
EDIT: Ah because you don't have to insert cortex bombs etc, yes ? I still think as the captured runners would be good for several runs it would work out cheaper

Yes. But there's also the issue that you're putting cortex bombs in people that were incompetent enough to get caught in the first place. It really would just better to shop around for a bunch of runners that don't suck so much.

comicshorse
2010-05-29, 12:51 PM
Yes. But there's also the issue that you're putting cortex bombs in people that were incompetent enough to get caught in the first place. It really would just better to shop around for a bunch of runners that don't suck so much.

Again that depend on the circumstances. Even the best make mistakes or just get unlucky. If they talent they're worth it, if they're morons then they're off to meet Bubba the troll

Also this is meant to be about giving the P.C.s a chance to Run again not just be put up against the nearest wall and shot. For that it might be necessary to err on the side of Runner competency

Alleine
2010-05-29, 01:03 PM
So I've just started up a Shadowrun 4th ed. game, heavy on character and roleplaying (for a SR game, anyway), so I want to make the game less dangerous for characters. I assumed that if I slightly dumbed down the relevant combat abilities of adversaries, when they do fight, then I could keep the game from being too lethal to bother with a character background.

What I'm finding is that even very basic opponents, if played cleverly, and present in a 1 or 1.5/1 ratio, can blow through a player in just a couple of rounds; but if I subtract from their ability any further the encounter becomes farcical.

Has anyone had any success reducing the lethality of Shadowrun 4th but kept the challenge, or at least the illusion of challenge?

To answer the OPs question and get back on track a bit, there are a few things you can do. Have multiple groups attacking the PC's at the same time, multiple groups with wildly differing interests who are more likely to shoot each other than the PC's so they and make a clean getaway.

Give them the option to call in some backup on missions that are going to be highly dangerous, or do what D&D does and make sure the PC's can do the mission a different way to avoid confrontation as much as possible. They don't have to run in guns blazing, and if they have a good enough Face they might be able to get where they're going with a little help from people they might have fought.

Bharg
2010-05-29, 01:16 PM
Humanity loss is in Cyberpunk, Shadowrun has Essence loss which doesn't affect you mentally
I like the Cyberpunk version better. :(

raspberrybadger
2010-05-29, 01:25 PM
Not counting a few crazy builds, PCs can totally be shot by the opposition. They don't have the advantage of near immunity to enemies. That is why they need to cheat... can they be shot so easily if they are never detected while on the job? If they have already bribed someone in the opposition to turn traitor? If they manage to cover the battlefield in smoke / darkness / thermal smoke / whatever it is that defeats the opposition's vision? Can they be on the other side of some barrier when the fight goes down, and still have a way of fighting? Can they get the initiative and somehow kill or disable or demoralize all the opposition before the opposition even acts? Can they use a drone or spirit or hireling or other ally instead of taking fire themselves? Or, better yet, maneuver an enemy into doing the fighting, so the fight is a win-win for the PCs? If they aren't massively stacking the odds in their favor in some way, of course they will risk casualties when they get into a massive firefight in the open.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-29, 01:55 PM
Speaking impartially, I can't help but feel the 'Corporations are allowed to do the sensible thing and actually skip the fried baby breakfast when it would be profitable' angle not only makes more sense, it also makes for more interesting narrative possibilities and goes much further towards aiding with the OP's concerns.
Listen, the Corp could just let them go with a slap on the wrist - but that's hardly intelligent and is an obvious "gimme" from the GM.

Taking the time and effort to install cortex bombs (or somesuch) into incompetent Shadowrunners, forcing them to "work off" their crime, and then letting them go is about as ridiculous.
Megacorps are not dumb, and the guys who have the authority to implant cortex bombs in SINless trespassers aren't dumb either. They deal with Shadowrunners all the time and they know exactly how they tick. It doesn't take a genius to realize that forcing mercenaries to work for you for free is going to annoy them; nor is it surprising to find out Shadowrunners are violent and proactive people - you don't survive in the Shadows by letting any chump push you around. So no CorpSec Exec is going to "buy" a couple of pissed off mercenaries when they can buy happy mercenaries who also have the benefit of not having damaged Corp Property nor being incompetent enough to get caught by Corporate Security.

And it's not like the PCs aren't going to do their damndest to escape Corp control and then get revenge.

Just because something solves a problem doesn't make it a good idea. It's one thing to want to turn down the lethality of a system, but it's another to subvert the core axioms of the system (i.e. megacorps are smart, sinister, and out to get you) because it's an easy way to "solve" a problem.

I apologize if this sounds hostile, but I'm not particularly pleased with having these objections brushed away with a Stop Having Fun Guys (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys). As I've said in numerous posts, it is not just a bad idea for corps to routinely enslave incompetent 'runners, it is also a bad storytelling decision that undermines the established fluff.

EDIT: I, too, would like to hear what the OP has to say. I've given my advice - frame the game such that pitched battles are not the centerpiece of the action - and I'd like to hear his thoughts on this line.

GreyMantle
2010-05-29, 02:02 PM
By the way: Do you know how Dunkelzahn was assassinated? I mean... He was a DRAGON? Was he in human form or was he shot down by a jet fighter?

I could've sworn that I read in some book or other that Darktooth arranged his own assassination as part of an absurdly complex plan to shake up the established world order and accomplish...something.

And, as for the OP, I think the best option is just to emphasize to the PCs that Shadowrun is not a game where you individually shoot every enemy in the face before moving past the next loading screen. Show them media examples of things like James Bond or Ocean's Eleven where the protagonists rely primarily on stealth and cleverness to get past obstacles. Have them play games like Rainbow Six: Vegas where you seriously need to take cover in order live, much less succeed.

Insert NPCs that go on about the virtues of stealth and ninja-ness. (If you want to be kind of clever, have them meet a sucession of burly, violent, macho NPCs that always try the guns-blazing approach and inevitably meet some humorously gruesome end because of their inability to understand proper tactics.

Shadowrun is meant to be a somewhat unforgiving game, so I wouldn't do a lot of intentional "dumbing down" or kid glove-wearing past the first few runs.

Considering this whole thread-jacking debate, I'm inclined to say that, unless the PCs are incredibly hardcore runners, corps would be unlikely to do the whole brain-hacking thing. It'd just be easier and cheaper to shoot them and then dump them somewhere than to have to go through all the trouble of messing with their brains and then having to worry about the chances of them going rogue and such. The exception to this might be if the PCs are uniquely suited to accomplish something-maybe they alone might be able to track down their original employer, and thus the corps that capture them would need specifically them to hunt down the people that tried to attack them.

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-29, 02:10 PM
If the Fluff is more important than potential storylines, then I can see your point. But I tend to be of the opinion that the only use for Holy Cow's is for making Divine Hamburger Meat.

Your take on things is perfectly valid, Oracle Hunter, but it is not the one true way.
And the alternative is more more suited to the type of game the OP seems to want, where the PC's aren't going to get butchered if they have a little bad luck.

Reguardless, I see far more benefit in taking in such a team of shadowrunners than merely butchering them, on a few proviso's.
1; They can't be complete morons.
2; They shouldn't have an existing grudge or vendetta against the Corp.

So, you've just beaten them, and what's more, non-lethally. They are at your mercy, and know full well they are about to die. You wrong foot them by being entirely reasonable and professional about things. Explain that in exchange for their services for a time, you'll consider not handing them over to the requisite authorities. Explosive Collars, Cortex Bombs, Voodoo or simply veiled threats are applied after they agree, and you put your aquired team of runners to work on the dirty, dirty and potentially suicidal tasks you need doing.

But you treat them well, and if they survive to term, you offer them ACTUAL employment, at good rates.

You have achieved the following;
1; Gotten a couple of tasks done for next to nothing, depending on what measures you took.
2; Risked little, as you have already proved to every-one involved that your security teams are more than a match for anything they can manage.
3; Potentially won the loyalty of a team of Runners by being suprisingly professional, giving them a decent chance to survive and even eventually prosper where other Corps would have simply had them killed.

Sure, it commits the sin of being a ploy that is slightly more genre aware than the usual 90's x-files grim-dark, but didn't you know that in the new millenia, every evil mega-corporation bent on world domination has it's very own human resources department, well-being courses and a crech? :smallsmile:

(And as a DM, you have also achieved point 4; Not had to TPK the party and scrap the adventure because the designated plan-guy had a brain-fart.)

Bharg
2010-05-29, 02:30 PM
Actually properly planning runs in the shadows is a good method for your players to prepare themselves and to prepare yourself as a DM. You will know how your players might act and already think of things that might go wrong to spice things up a bit if their plan is too foolproof.
A security officer might start his shift earlier or a huge plane crushes in a Bay like manner into the buiding.


Edit: Darktooth? I thought I already read the english version... :smalleek:

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-29, 02:38 PM
If the Fluff is more important than potential storylines, then I can see your point. But I tend to be of the opinion that the only use for Holy Cow's is for making Divine Hamburger Meat.
That is an unusual take when using an established setting. What's the point of using a setting if you're willing to violate its underlying logic at a whim? I usually try to avoid plots which make no sense to my PCs - Vecna doesn't tell them to go kill undead any more than Pelor tells them to make 'em.

And if they do, it is notable that they are deviating from their previous characterization!


RESPONSE

So, you've just beaten them, and what's more, non-lethally. They are at your mercy, and know full well they are about to die. You wrong foot them by being entirely reasonable and professional about things. Explain that in exchange for their services for a time, you'll consider not handing them over to the requisite authorities. Explosive Collars, Cortex Bombs, Voodoo or simply veiled threats are applied after they agree, and you put your aquired team of runners to work on the dirty, dirty and potentially suicidal tasks you need doing.

But you treat them well, and if they survive to term, you offer them ACTUAL employment, at good rates.

You have achieved the following;
1; Gotten a couple of tasks done for next to nothing, depending on what measures you took.
2; Risked little, as you have already proved to every-one involved that your security teams are more than a match for anything they can manage.
3; Potentially won the loyalty of a team of Runners by being suprisingly professional, giving them a decent chance to survive and even eventually prosper where other Corps would have simply had them killed.

Sure, it commits the sin of being a ploy that is slightly more genre aware than the usual 90's x-files grim-dark, but didn't you know that in the new millenia, every evil mega-corporation bent on world domination has it's very own human resources department, well-being courses and a crech? :smallsmile:
Some problems
(1) Corporations do not hand SINless 'runners over to the police!
If you don't have a SIN, you're not a citizen of UCAS. Furthermore, corporate compounds are sovereign territory - the corps are the law!

(2) Corporations do not hire incompetents to perform illegal activity on their behalf
If you are hiring a Shadowrunner, it is because you want to do something illegal. More importantly, it's something illegal that you don't want associated with your corporation. Most importantly, it's something that is important to get right.
If the violent task is legal, you sent regular corporate forces and let the law be on your side
If you don't care that your corp is associated with said task, send your BlackOps - that's what you're paying them for.
If the task is important, then hire someone aside from the people who just failed their last mission!
Corps don't just have Suicide Fetch Quests just sitting in binders somewhere; they only use 'runners when they need to. Worse, megacorporations are rolling in nuyen - a couple hundred thousand nuyen is a drop in the bucket. So, a Corp is actually risking the failure of an important task to save a few pennies! And for what? The opportunity to eventually (maybe) hire the 'runners on as Official Corp Security? WTF?

Your proposal makes perfect sense in D&D because
- the supply of elite adventurers is low
- it's hard to find and recruit adventurers of any stripe
- money is often in short supply

But none of this is true for megacorps. And unless you want to make the megacorps really dumb, then just make their forces fight really stupidly - something the OP refused to do.
There is something to be said about consistency. How can a PC predict the actions of NPCs if they change their action to suit the DM's story?

Another_Poet
2010-05-29, 04:11 PM
An easy option to increase PC survivability in Shadowrun 4e is to change how the damage track works.

By normal ruyles, every 3 boxes of damage imposes a (cumulative and stacking) penalty on basically everything the PC does.

Get rid of the penalty, so that boxes are essentially just hit points. Like in D&D, there is no penalty from being "wounded" - you're able to act without penalty, no matter how many hits you've taken, until you drop.

An intermediate option would be to have no penalty for the first 3 boxes, so that they don't start taking penalties until 6 boxes of damage are reached.

ap

Oracle_Hunter
2010-05-29, 04:25 PM
An easy option to increase PC survivability in Shadowrun 4e is to change how the damage track works.
That helps in extended firefights, but I think part of the problem is just how easy it is to die.

It might be better, actually, to just increase the amount of Edge they get. Or provide them with some other "Get out of Jail Free Card" mechanic that allows them to "survive" firefights and run away.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-05-29, 04:33 PM
Err whats all this crazy talk of corps making runners slaves with implants, magic and bombs? I never intended that to come out.

First corps do have to maintain a public image and a big body count just looks bad. Its messy its hard to cover up and someone just might come questioning what was so important. That they do in he shadows is for runners and covert strike teams.

Speaking of image its wise for runners to use nonlethal methods when doing a run whenever possible[at least against corps].

If you steal a prototype or damage property there isn't much to be gained by the megacorp to track you down after the run is over. You can't possibly lead them to what you stole and whomever hired you is long gone. [which is why capturing you before its over would be so important]. Now obviously if you leave an easy trail they'll follow it but if you cover your tracks its likely they'll cut their losses and move on.

But a body count can't be swept under the rug you kill a couple guards and those guards have friends and families and they'll pester the corp and demand they bring the runners to justice , they'll tell news organizations of another corp which would just love to do a story over a rival doing nothing to bring the murderers to justice.

If the whole team gets knocked out by stick-and-shock the campaign is probably just as much over as if they had all been killed. But if half of them are unconscious the other half can drag them away and flee. Rather then half of them being dead.
A group of dead runners requires some cleanup teams, checking to be sure they're sinless, Wondering what they were after, and if its likely another team will come. Not to mention the expense of cleaning out the floor and walls.

But really even with a high rating non-conductivity on armor. Stick & Shock is still a very efficient and effective ammo. My runner stopped using the ammo because I felt it made things to easy.

Another_Poet
2010-05-30, 03:49 PM
That helps in extended firefights, but I think part of the problem is just how easy it is to die.

As in being taken out by one hit of massive damage? I can't remember that happening much/ever in SR4. What are these PCs being hit with? Do they have proper armour, and is the armour value being subtracted from hits before they are applied as damage?

Also, have the players familiarised themselves with the cyber implants and other gear in the book? Are they spending build points intelligently? There should be bone lacing, wired reflexes, smartlinks to their weapons, eyeball augmentations so they can see in all circumstances, etc. For those who don't want to lose essence there are magical equivalents of the above.

The only reason they should be taking massive damage is if they're being hit with rocket launchers. Even grenades are survivable in SR, though barely. If the enemies are using rocket launchers there should logical consequences, like Lone Star showing up in a hurry. Even spells shouldn't be doing enough damage to drop a PC in one hit, not often, unless the enemy spellcasters are way more advanced than the PCs' casters.

If they are truly outweaponed and outspelled, the PCs should take simpler jobs that fit their current gear & power level better. They can build up to the big stuff when they have more power of their own.


It might be better, actually, to just increase the amount of Edge they get.

Or even just emphasise the importance of Edge when players are making characters. If they're new to SR they might not get how important that stat is. Characters of all types, from hardened street sams to idealistic teenage shamans, should set Edge as high as they can afford to at the beginning. It's the most useful of all stats. New players might not realise that.

Also: remind the players they can permanently burn 1 point of edge (never get it back) to miraculously survive something that should have meant their death.

Poil
2010-05-30, 05:58 PM
Even spells shouldn't be doing enough damage to drop a PC in one hit, not often, unless the enemy spellcasters are way more advanced than the PCs' casters.

You only really need a magic rating of 6 to one hit kill someone with a manabolt. Overcasting easily gives you 12+ damage, assuming that your target doesn't have counterspelling.

Lyrcyon
2010-05-30, 08:16 PM
While it seems to me that the game's flavor and tone definitely lends itself to a moderate to high lethality, stupidity being harshly punished sort of experience, I don't think that you need to necessarily feel glued to that. If you or your group is looking for a different kind of playing experience, feel free to tweak the rules; like others above me have said, granting more Edge to burn to bypass death, weakening enemy grunts overall, etc, are all ways of accomplishing that. Just because the "default" game has high lethality doesn't mean that your campaign has to.

Disclaimer: To my dismay, I haven't actually played in a game of Shadowrun yet. I only recently acquired a few of the books and still have some things to figure out about it. (If anyone has the time, I've posted some questions I have about hacking here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154294 . The hacking seems so cool, I'd love to get a firmer grasp on it; I'd really appreciate it if an experienced player can help me out with some of it!)

Tiki Snakes
2010-05-30, 09:03 PM
That is an unusual take when using an established setting. What's the point of using a setting if you're willing to violate its underlying logic at a whim? I usually try to avoid plots which make no sense to my PCs - Vecna doesn't tell them to go kill undead any more than Pelor tells them to make 'em.

And if they do, it is notable that they are deviating from their previous characterization!

I'm an unusual fellow.

But more specifically, what the book says is simply less important to me than what is best for My Game.

Cirrylius
2010-05-30, 09:45 PM
Thank you for all this excellent advice.

I've briefed the players on tactics, edge, the necessity of armor (all of this they're paying attention to, at least marginally), but there came a point where I realized that it's just so trivially simple to deal out huge amounts of damage unintentionally. All it takes are rock-bottom wired reflexes and an SMG with a full clip, or competent skill with a Super Warhawk and a smartlink, or (especially) a mage with his back to the wall who's willing to critically overcast a Powerbolt to save his ass. The spiral of death just exacerbates it; especially since half a party will drop much faster than a whole one.
It seems that the randomness factor in combat is just too high; in D&D, for example, since it started out as a wargame and has been since playtested into the ground, it's extremely simple to build a combat encounter that's designed to be easy but not a cakewalk, and pretty simple to build an encounter that's designed to be taxing but winnable. But in Shadowrun any mook with a shotgun is a potentially lethal threat.
Rather than put out brushfires with Edge and TPKO contingency plans (not to belittle those fine suggestions) , I was kind of hoping that someone could point me to some "broad but shallow strokes" rules alterations that could ease the problem while not screaming out "NERFED!!" to my players. In retrospect this seems extremely naive:smallredface:

Nightson
2010-05-30, 10:36 PM
Tactics wise, don't focus fire. Yes, focus fire is the smartest tactic, but it is the most lethal and it is also isn't very realistic.

To decrease lethality, there's a very easy step to take. Increase health.

huttj509
2010-05-30, 10:45 PM
I've not played Shadowrun 4th, played...3rd, I think (friend's books), but I think I see what yer tryin to get at Cirrylius.

So the group maybe plans, and has a stealth way in and out, avoids guards, etc...

But what about when something goes wrong? Eventually they'll run into someone who wants to shoot them.

From my experience with a prior edition, and some comments here that make it seem that it's similar in 4th, whoever hits first has a MAJOR advantage, due to the damage track.

I like another_poet's idea of shifting the penalties down a few boxes, though that only helps if the players aren't getting one shot. Without more recent experience with the newer edition I can't speak to how often that could realistically happen.


All it takes are rock-bottom wired reflexes and an SMG with a full clip, or competent skill with a Super Warhawk and a smartlink, or (especially) a mage with his back to the wall who's willing to critically overcast a Powerbolt to save his ass.

Perhaps someone with more direct system knowledge could comment on these examples Cirrylius brought up. Are they really that likely to drop someone before he can react? If there is disagreement on the one-shot potential, perhaps a rule/mechanic is being misunderstood/misapplied, which could easily make the system even more lethal.


Capture/brainwash/extort can be used well, but there does need to be some sort of motivation for the Corp involved to do so. I was in one where the way it was set up, we had stumbled upon some important info, a couple of us were captured while the others escaped, then they staged a rescue attempt (rather well done too). The captives had actually been brainwashed in order to track down/trap the rest of the group, and get a lockdown on that leaked info. It did not end well, but we sure had fun goin down in flames.

Worira
2010-05-30, 10:54 PM
I think some of the problem is probably unoptimized PCs. A combat-focused character should not be getting killed with one SMG burst or a single Warhawk wielder, unless the user is exceptionally skilled. On of Shadowrun's problems is that it is very possible to build a character well below the expected level of effectiveness. Compare the Ganger and Street Samurai sample characters, for example. Same BP, but the Sam could take down the ganger without breaking a sweat.

Another_Poet
2010-05-30, 11:41 PM
I see what you mean, Cirrylius. I second what Worira and Nightson have to say.

Additionally, I'd really recommend you run some sample combats. Maybe at the end of the character generation session, have 2 combat encounters as "exhibition matches". Meaning characters who die aren't dead, but no karma is earned - just test fights to get used to the system. After those two fights the players can tweak their builds if desired, before the first real session.

A few things you'll find out if you run actual combats... well first, as Worira said, it's difficult (and unwise, if you want to see a long-term campaign) to focus all fire on one PC at a time. Spread it out like a real gunfight. Also, the players should realise pretty quick that this is nothing like D&D. In SR they will want to use stealth, tons of planning, and run away from danger when possible. If there are a couple fatalities in the test fights, good! This will give them the healthy fear of guns and magic that 'runners should have.

You'll also get a sense from a test fight that your mooks, with their Professional rating and limited options, won't stand up to the versatility of the PCs. You're right that someone with Wired2 can really mess up the PCs, but how many NPC grunts have that? Virtually none. In general you're throwing faceless thugs or soldiers at the PCs, not spec ops or rival runner teams. If the PCs use all their options and you follow all your limits you'll see a lot less lethality there.

Also, for that shallow but broad stroke, it's already built in. Remember: burn one point of Edge, free resurrection. I wouldn't exactly encourage my PCs to use it but if there are a couple of unexpected deaths early on, remind them of it. Anyone who dies can burn one point of Edge (forever) and miraculously survive. Cheapest resurrection ever.

There are some other unusual uses of Edge as well, read through that section and see what all their options are, and be ready to remind them of those options should it come to the bitter end.

ap

GreyMantle
2010-05-31, 11:12 AM
One thing you could do is allow PCs (along with prime runners and sooperdooper hardcore NPCs to add their Edge score to any Soak dicepools.

And I honestly don't think lowering wound penalties will do much. All the penalties do is reduce the PCs dicepools, but since said dicepools were already low enough in the first place to get hit, it's just going to change the results of the second time they get hit from "Dead" to "Really Dead."

Another Poet's suggestions of Sample Combat are very good. You could even run that "Food Fight" encounter as one of them.

This is not necessarily a simple rules suggestion, but if you're willing to take some time, it might work for you...

Shadowrun 4E suffers from what is known as the Two-Shot problem. That is, it takes nearly two shots to kill nearly anyone not totally optimized for getting shot and liking it, regardless of weapon. (The two-point difference in damage between a Colt L36 and an AK-97 is dwarfed by the dicepool bonuses characters get from Smartlinks and high weapons skills and cybered Agility and all that.)

But weapon similarity is more or less irrelevant to survival rates. A possible solution is to switch to LMSD (light, medium, serious, deadly) damage. That works by having an attack with one net damage does 1 box, 2 net damage does 3 boxes of damages, 3 net damage does 6 boxes, and 4 net damage does 10 boxes of damage. It "controls" the amount of damage characters take much better. (Weapons in a LMSD system should probably do about 2 less damage than they do currently.)

The only problem is that Shadowrunner 4E tends to have a lot of little extraneous bonuses that could lead to number inflation. But if your players are kinda slow on optimization in general, this could be less of a problem than it would be normally.

Cirrylius
2010-05-31, 02:37 PM
Optimization is indeed an important issue; I read about so many GM's having to throw the kitchen sink at their players because they were so heavily specialized that I put skill caps into effect of one 5 and two 4's (too draconian?). Plus, I wanted the players individually to be able to do some useful stuff outside their core concept (example; to avoid the problem in D&D, where one fighter screws the whole party's stealth check).

And I actually did run Food Fight, translated from 3rd ed.:smallbiggrin:

SlicerDicer got punked from behind in one IP, Wiley dropped that same player in one shot with a stunbolt, who used his Dead Man's Trigger to blow Wiley's brains out. Zany was kept busy miraculously missing the group medic, who eventually got into melee with her to get that additional -3 dice for firing into melee. Catcher was taken out with pistol fire from the Hacker in, I think, 2 rounds (again, Catcher miraculously not hitting with his hand cannon). Static was mind controlled or sobbing and trying to reassemble a broken TV the whole combat, and Spike was completely ineffectual.

I dropped Catcher's Wired Reflexes from 2 to 1, the whole gang fought like they were indestructible, I had several of them outright acting like morons, and still it would have been grim if I hadn't rolled really badly, repeatedly.



A possible solution is to switch to LMSD (light, medium, serious, deadly) damage. That works by having an attack with one net damage does 1 box, 2 net damage does 3 boxes of damages, 3 net damage does 6 boxes, and 4 net damage does 10 boxes of damage. It "controls" the amount of damage characters take much better. (Weapons in a LMSD system should probably do about 2 less damage than they do currently.)

Where can I find a more complete writup on this?

GreyMantle
2010-05-31, 03:31 PM
I don't know if he was the person that actually invented it, but Frank Trollman uses it for his Alternate World of Darkness (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50434) system. There's also a bit of discussion as to how it might be applied in Shadowrun in the Shadowrun 5th Edition (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51152) thread on the same forum. I think he also used it for Warp Cult (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=72842), which is essentially an RPG set in the 40k universe that uses a lot of Shadowrun 4E rules.