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pallyhero
2010-05-29, 01:55 AM
Hey guys/gals...I am a new player and decided that I want to play a paladin for my friends new campaign. I don't know what kind of campaign it is, but I really have my heart set on being a melee paladin. For this DM the stats are like this:

38 Point Buy
All stats start at 8

9-14 / 1 point
15-16 / 2 point
17-18 / 3 point

Right now i am a human paladin with:

18 str
16 cha
14 con
12 int
10 dex
8 wis

with my +2 for being human in STR

I know that could probably use a lot of tweaking and I am generously open to any and all suggestions, please be constructive tho :D

I chose Power attack and toughness as my two starting feats, im pretty sure those are two solid ones to go with, but I could be horribly mistaken.

I really want to be a powerful frontline with all the party support the paladin has to offer.

I am also open to suggestions of Races and other classes to chose from to be a powerful frontline(except rogue) I appreciate the help and hope to hear from somebody soon :D

Thanks

Tinydwarfman
2010-05-29, 09:01 AM
Can you use 3.5 stuff?
If so, I highly recommend Battle Blessing and Devotion feats (cmp. Champion)

A 1 level cleric dip can also be extremely useful, especially with cloistered cleric (unearthed arcana), as you can swap out domains for devotion feats.

AtopTheMountain
2010-05-29, 10:46 AM
There are four general ways to go as a Paladin in Pathfinder. Here they are ranked in order from best to worst (or least best), in my opinion.

1. Ranged attacks. Using something like a longbow is incredibly good for Paladins. If you take feats like Rapid Shot and Manyshot, you can do some serious damage, since Smite Evil adds your Paladin level on all damage rolls, and you can make lots of attacks. There are also feats higher up on the tree that let you hit even easier (such as Pinpoint Targeting), allowing you to do Smite damage even more reliably. The downside to this is that you'd have to spend pretty much all your feats on improving your ranged attacks, and you need a pretty high Dex to pull it off, though you can safely skimp on Strength.

2. Dual wielding. My personal favorite. If you dual wield something like, say, kukris, you get some of the same advantages as above, plus you can fight at the front of the party. And with kukris (or scimitars, or rapiers, etc.) you can get feats that will have you critting a pretty good percentage of the time (between 12.5 and 25%). I'm not sure whether Smite Evil damage is multiplied on a crit, but even if it's not, that's some serious damage. A downside is that you lose defense (since TWD is no substitute for a heavy shield), and again, you need to spend most of your feats on making combat work for you, and even then you'll still have penalties. Also, you're pretty MAD, since you need Str, Dex, Con, and Cha.

3. Big weapon. Use a two-hander like a greatsword or greataxe to get some pretty big damage. Alternatively, fight with a ranseur, spiked chain, or halberd, and take Improved Trip and/or Improved Disarm, and you can control the battlefield pretty effectively. Downside to the former is that you lose defense, and you don't do quite as much damage as the first two options, but you still are a very good meleer. What's bad about the second one? Surprisingly a lot. Well, spiked chain isn't a reach weapon anymore, so if you do want reach + battlefield control, you'll need to go with a ranseur, which can't be used to make trip attacks. You could use something like a heavy flail to get both damage, trip, and disarm, but you won't have reach. I think one of the things they specifically got rid of in Pathfinder was trip-spamming.

4. Sword 'n Board. I call this the weakest option because there's really not a lot you can do with it. However, it's probably the most reliable build, since you have decent damage, good defense, and can spread out your feats to do other stuff. Probably the best at just fighting up close.

Ravens_cry
2010-05-29, 11:10 AM
Actually, I think you can use anything for a trip attack, at least in Pathfinder, it's just that Trip weapons give you a +2 bonus on it.

MachineWraith
2010-05-29, 11:11 AM
Well, for one thing, you should boost your charisma higher than it is. Charisma is actually a useful stat for Paladins, and several class abilities rely on it. For instance, the always wonderful Divine Grace gives you your charisma bonus to all 3 of your saves. Your lay on hands ability also gets more uses if you have a higher charisma, etc.

That is, of course, IMO, but methinks it's rather sound advice.

Edit: Spoke too soon, ignore this entirely. I'm so used to stats being in the order of Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha that my eyes completely overlooked that the order was different. Sorry :smallfrown:

DaedalusMkV
2010-05-29, 11:50 AM
Depending on how high level you plan to go, it's possible to combine Sword'n'Board and TWF into one happy little package using the Shield Mastery feat chain, though it won't come entirely into its own until 11th level, and will take up all your feats for basically the whole game. It will, though, make you into a roaring engine of destruction when smiting and a decent tanky damage dealer when not. This is the route I went with my paladin, though a sadly lethal campaign ended his career early.

You'll have to make a very important choice at 6th level: Mount or Weapon. The mount has, like all your other class features, been improved quite a bit, now being identical to an Animal Companion. However, the other option (Bonded Weapon?) gives you another Smite-like ability that lets you do some crazy stuff (such as having a +14 equivalent weapon or breaking DR/epic by 10th level). It's not an easy choice, and (IMO) it depends on the campaign which is mechanically better.

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-29, 12:17 PM
Actually, I think you can use anything for a trip attack, at least in Pathfinder, it's just that Trip weapons give you a +2 bonus on it.

No, that was in beta maybe, but in PF you can trip with unarmed and trip weapons.

Disarming weapons bring in a +2 to disarm, trip weapons simply allow the tripping attack (allowing to add to the CMB the weapon enhancement).

************************************************** *******

A note about S&B: if you invest enough resource in it, you can be really nasty with S&B., because you can mix higher AC, a bit of TWF pimpable by smite, and control (as said above).

Base is: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Two Weapon Fight, Improved Shiel bash, Shield Slam.

Choose the other 5 feats basing on what do you want to do:

Moar S&B, sir : Shield Focus, Improved Shield Focus, Shield Mastery, Greater Bull Rush, Improved TWF (the latter not very suitable without tomes)

Tank: Combat reflexes, Stand Still, Step Up, Extra Lay on Hands, Blind Fight

Moar Punishment: Improved Sunder, Improved Overrun, Cleave, Greater Sunder, Extra Smite not core :smalltongue:

Of course you can even mix it up - Taking Shield Mastery, Greater Bull Rush, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, And Extra Smite for a mixed bag. It depends from the campaign.

pallyhero
2010-05-29, 03:09 PM
1. Ranged attacks. Using something like a longbow is incredibly good for Paladins. If you take feats like Rapid Shot and Manyshot, you can do some serious damage, since Smite Evil adds your Paladin level on all damage rolls, and you can make lots of attacks. There are also feats higher up on the tree that let you hit even easier (such as Pinpoint Targeting), allowing you to do Smite damage even more reliably. The downside to this is that you'd have to spend pretty much all your feats on improving your ranged attacks, and you need a pretty high Dex to pull it off, though you can safely skimp on Strength.


using the point buy I mentioned and your opinion what feat progression and stats would you recommend for damage optimization. Which race would you feel would best serve this?

Ravens_cry
2010-05-29, 03:26 PM
using the point buy I mentioned and your opinion what feat progression and stats would you recommend for damage optimization. Which race would you feel would best serve this?
I would say halfling. They get a bonus to both dex and charisma, both things the paladin archer needs. As well, being small means +1 to ac and to hit, always nice.

pallyhero
2010-05-29, 03:38 PM
I would say halfling. They get a bonus to both dex and charisma, both things the paladin archer needs. As well, being small means +1 to ac and to hit, always nice.

so point blank shot for first feat? and what about stats?

Ravens_cry
2010-05-29, 03:54 PM
so point blank shot for first feat? and what about stats?

Unfortunately, I don't have much experience with archers. You won't need much con because your in the back of the party most of the time, I am guessing. Wisdom is not so necessary thanks to the fact the charisma works for spells now, decreasing mad. See if you can get the out of Core feat, Extra Smite. Not sure where it's from though, I've only heard of it.

AtopTheMountain
2010-05-29, 05:18 PM
using the point buy I mentioned and your opinion what feat progression and stats would you recommend for damage optimization. Which race would you feel would best serve this?

You could also go Elf. You wouldn't get the +2 to Charisma or the bonus to AC and to-hit, but your bow wouldn't deal less damage from size. Looking at the PRD... Either Elf, Halfling, or Human is probably your best bet. I would give an 18 to Dex before racial mods, and as high as you can to Cha without killing the rest. Also give decent scores to Con for hit points, as well as Strength in case you get caught in melee.

EDIT: If you can get your hands on a composite longbow, you can add your Strength to damage, so that's another reason to make it decent.

pallyhero
2010-05-30, 10:06 PM
So this SnB idea is really catching my attention. I chose to go Human with power attack and imp bull rush. But what about toughness? do i not need that as a SnB tankish character. I was also planning on going the "more punishment route. right now i was thinking
18 str
12dex
16con
14cha
10int
8wis

Now i keep reading that my cha needs to be higher, but i cant really make up my mind about what to do. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated :D

also, another question, armor and shields in this game are really confusing, i dont understand what is the point of using them when It seems like i will never be able to hit with a -8 armor and shield penalty. Seems a little bogus to me but maybe it doesnt seem worth it because im level 1. haha. Again comments are greatly appreciated thanks :D

Also is human a good choice? I think the extra feat almost seals it for me because SnB seems feat Dependant...

tyckspoon
2010-05-30, 10:13 PM
also, another question, armor and shields in this game are really confusing, i dont understand what is the point of using them when It seems like i will never be able to hit with a -8 armor and shield penalty. Seems a little bogus to me but maybe it doesnt seem worth it because im level 1. haha. Again comments are greatly appreciated thanks :D

Also is human a good choice? I think the extra feat almost seals it for me because SnB seems feat Dependant...

You only take that as a penalty to hit if you are non-proficient with the armor/shield. And Human is never a bad choice. It's probably the best you have available if you want to be a melee Paladin, since the +Cha races sacrifice Strength and size.

AtopTheMountain
2010-05-30, 11:07 PM
So this SnB idea is really catching my attention. I chose to go Human with power attack and imp bull rush. But what about toughness? do i not need that as a SnB tankish character. I was also planning on going the "more punishment route. right now i was thinking
18 str
12dex
16con
14cha
10int
8wis

Now i keep reading that my cha needs to be higher, but i cant really make up my mind about what to do. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated :D

also, another question, armor and shields in this game are really confusing, i dont understand what is the point of using them when It seems like i will never be able to hit with a -8 armor and shield penalty. Seems a little bogus to me but maybe it doesnt seem worth it because im level 1. haha. Again comments are greatly appreciated thanks :D

Also is human a good choice? I think the extra feat almost seals it for me because SnB seems feat Dependant...

You should probably have a higher Charisma... maybe switch it with the Con. Toughness is moderately useful, but it's best for midlevel games (say, 6-12 level); before that, the +1/level is too small to make a difference, but after, it doesn't do much compared to your higher HP. Still a good feat choice if you can't decide on anything else, but if I were you I'd probably take Improved Initiative. It'd fix your initiative from your 12 Dex, and Toughness is made slightly less useful because of your likely high AC. Other good feat choices would be Dodge (though you'd need a higher Dex) or Weapon Focus. I've never seen much goodness in Bull Rush, but that's just me.

pallyhero
2010-05-31, 01:23 AM
so atm i have:
18str
14(+2)cha
12con
10int
8wis
15dex
with power attack and two weapon fighting...
or should i have power attack and imp initiative...and what do you think about the stats...cause i want to have twf for shield bash and stuff so i need 15 dex or should i wait till i get a +1 in a stat and use the 2 points to make it 14 con...if that makes any sense...then i would get twf later and use imp initiative or imp br or over run something like taht

pallyhero
2010-05-31, 02:34 PM
also, seems that taking a -4 to both my attack rolls for twf will make me not able to hit anything :(

Edit: never mind it will get better as my BAB goes up...

WhiteFox
2010-06-16, 04:14 AM
Recommendation on S&B

Take a light steel shield so it's only a -2 to attacks, and you can switch it out for a heavy steel shield at 11 when you get shield master.

I would go with scimitar for the extra crit range, remember smite evil damage is multiplied in a crit. With improved critical, that's a 15-20 range we're looking at a 30% chance to crit! A difference between a 1d6 and a 1d8 is negligible. Plus with Bless weapon (A level 1 spell), against evil foes you automatically confirm your critical. (This is why you take improved critical over keen, because bless weapon does not work on keen weapons)

For stats here are some variations you can work with

STR: 16
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 16

STR: 16
DEX: 16
CON: 10
INT: 8
WIS: 8
CHA: 18
Add a +2 to either strength or charisma to make it an 18, Personally I would do charisma, since it gives you more lay on hands, more damage and AC on smites, makes you a much better face, and improves your saving throws. If able to take stuff from 3.5 books, take force of personality (which allows you to use charisma modifier for will saves, boosting you to ridiculously high levels, a level 5 paladin with force of personality and an 18 charisma, could have a 12 will save, and each +2 headband of charisma you get raises it another 2)

There are other good feats, many from PHB 2 if you are allowed, shock trooper (i think) allows you to make free trip attempts when you bull rush.

As I said before, you must do human, you will be very feat deprived and skill point deprived.

Another Stat Variation, though this much more powergamer

STR: 16
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 8
WIS: 6
CHA: 18

(Con can afford to be lower due to the fact that you have a high AC and the ability to heal yourself, all your saving throws are already high due to charisma)

(You can make that CHA a 20 if you wish (and highly recommended) with racial bonuses)

With a 20 charisma and dumping all your attribute points as you level and headbands of charisma, you can boost it a 28 charisma at level 9.

28 Charisma means you get a +9 to attack rolls and +9 Deflection on AC when using smite, and you can smite 3 times a day. At a 28 Charisma you are also unearthly beautiful and can win people over with your diplomacy, which is great for gathering information or intimidating evil people into surrendering and role playing in general. At 28 charisma you exceed the beauty and grace of every monster in the bestiary, even Nymphs and Succubi.

With a very high charisma, you can be a terrific fighter, be a great roleplayer and an emergency healer for the group. You are incredibly versatile!

For feats you should take TWF and improved shield bash at level 1

At level 3 take double slice so you can add your strength to shield damage.
(This isn't really necessary however, and you can put something else in, after all it's only 3-4 damage)

At level 5 take shield slam

At level 7 Power Attack (or something from another book)

At level 9 Improved Critical

At level 11 Shield Master and get one hell of a nice heavy steel shield, with shield master your enchantment bonus is added to damage, which depending on your DM, will make your spiked shield better. You also don't have any penalties for TWF.

Don't bother with taking feats to add AC, you aren't a fighter, so therefore won't have their number of feats or nice armor training. You are a paladin, you have awesome AC with smite on and you can heal yourself as a swift action (which means you can still take full round attacks)

The best armor is a mix between a Mithral full plate and a Mithral Breastplate.

Both can accommodate your +3 dex modifier, and the full plate has more AC, but the breastplate is both light (giving you 30 movement) and 5,000 GP cheaper (Mithril is 9000 for heavy, 4000 for medium)

A 2h build is alright, but at higher levels this becomes less and less viable as you get higher.

An archer build is powerful, but it's not for everyone, not mentioning a wise GM could just cast things like wind wall or etc to deflect your arrows.

If you wish to know more, PM me.

Greenish
2010-06-16, 04:29 AM
The PF paladin handbook (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/cryptic-s-lab), for your perusal.

Whyte_Widow
2010-10-22, 04:29 PM
Bringing up an old thread here as I am building a PF pali.

Str 16
Sex 16
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 18

Human s&b with twf, double slice, and imp shield bash as base feats. Comptemplating on where to put the racial bonus. Cha or Str? Which would benefit me more in the long run? Being the main tank of the group ... I want to be as effective as possible. Build ideas?

Paul H
2010-10-22, 08:49 PM
Hi

As I mentioned in another PF Pally thread - Pal 5/Sorc 1/Drag Disciple xxxxx

Bonuses to Str, Con, Int, Nat Armour. Breath Wpn, Form of Dragon (polymorph into dragon), good spells to boost AC, stats, etc.

Just imagine a Large Gold Dragon using Smite Evil on his 6 attacks/rnd, all doing +5 damage, no DR.

Remember, you don't get the physical stats with polymorph in PF, you add to your current ones. So Large Dragons gain bonuses to Str, Dex, Con, Nat Armour, Breath Wpn. They also gain 2 Claw, 2 Wing Buffet, 1 Bite & 1 Tail Slap. (All can use Smite Evil).

Thanks
Paul H

Whyte_Widow
2010-10-22, 09:37 PM
Hi

As I mentioned in another PF Pally thread - Pal 5/Sorc 1/Drag Disciple xxxxx

Bonuses to Str, Con, Int, Nat Armour. Breath Wpn, Form of Dragon (polymorph into dragon), good spells to boost AC, stats, etc.

Just imagine a Large Gold Dragon using Smite Evil on his 6 attacks/rnd, all doing +5 damage, no DR.

Remember, you don't get the physical stats with polymorph in PF, you add to your current ones. So Large Dragons gain bonuses to Str, Dex, Con, Nat Armour, Breath Wpn. They also gain 2 Claw, 2 Wing Buffet, 1 Bite & 1 Tail Slap. (All can use Smite Evil).

Thanks
Paul H

I plan on staying pali. With that in mind... what would be your advice?

averagejoe
2010-10-23, 04:18 PM
The Mod They Call Me: Thread necromancy.