PDA

View Full Version : Berserk Armor



Chrono22
2010-05-29, 11:11 AM
I'm trying to construct a satisfactory approximate of the berserk armor, and here's what I've come up with so far:
+1 enhancement bonus : 1000 gp
(blackened) mithral full plate : 10500 gp
Continuous delay death effect on wearer: 15000 gp OR 120000 gp

Delay death is a 1 round/CL duration 3rd level spell from Race of Stone.

That isn't my question: my question is, would it be a valid interpretation of the item creation rules that a persist cleric can craft continuous function items of a persisted spell (thereby reducing the cost)? Normally, the cost of a 1 round/CL 3rd level spell in a continuous function item is (3(spell level) * 5(caster level) * 2000) * 4(duration multiplier). Does the persisted spell reduce the total costs by half, rather than multiplying them by four?
Are there additional costs when a spellcaster applies metamagic feats to spells being crafted into an item (aside from the heightened spell/caster level)?

Edit: I might also apply one of the qualities of a berserking sword as well, but that's not really pertinent. Just thought I'd share.:smallwink:

Boci
2010-05-29, 11:45 AM
Well, persisted delay death is a 9th level spell, so thats 10 x 17 x 2,000gp / 2 for having a duration of 24 hours. So that's 170,000gp.
So its not worth it, although the higher caster level does make it harder to supress via dispell.

Chrono22
2010-05-29, 12:08 PM
But persist (when combined with divine metamagic) doesn't change the spells level, and consequently the caster level doesn't change either.

Boci
2010-05-29, 12:15 PM
Yes and I can make a slotless item that gives me +4 AC for 4k. Both are horrific abuses of the rules and will not be allowed. RAW cannot even help you on this one since the custom item creation section of the DMG is a guidline, not hard rules.

Chrono22
2010-05-29, 12:17 PM
Spare me your finger pointing, please.
I want answers, not morality.

Boci
2010-05-29, 12:18 PM
Spare me your finger pointing, please.
I want answers, not morality.

I have answered you: no it does not work.

Chrono22
2010-05-29, 12:19 PM
Your answer isn't acceptable: you've hand waived away the fact that persist doesn't raise the caster level or spell slot when combined with divine metamagic.
I don't want DM fiat, I can do that myself. I want RAW interpretation.

Please don't persist with your claims of "horrendous abuse". It's not the topic of discussion, and frankly I don't care.

Boci
2010-05-29, 12:22 PM
Your answer isn't acceptable: you've hand waived away the fact that persist doesn't raise the caster level or spell slot when combined with divine metamagic.
I don't want DM fiat, I can do that myself. I want RAW interpretation.

Please don't persist with your claims of "horrendous abuse". It's not the topic of discussion, and frankly I don't care.

You cannot have 24 7 delay death for 15k. It is blatantly more powerful than any other magical worth 15k, and the giudlines of the DMG specifically say that you need to compare custome items to existing ones.

Illuminate_Void
2010-05-29, 12:26 PM
No, what you gave was a statement. If you're going to say it doesn't work then provide a reasonable explanation of why the attempt would fail.

That is unless you cant give a reason beyond "its an abuse of the rules". Which means you have no idea what your talking about anyway.

As for my own thoughts on the matter. I think its a fairly entertaining loophole. Although my question would be, what are the rules on creating magical items using spells modified by meta-magic feats.

Boci
2010-05-29, 12:29 PM
No, what you gave was a statement. If you're going to say it doesn't work then provide a reasonable explanation of why the attempt would fail.

If you read closer you'll see once I got over the topic i actually explained why.


That is unless you cant give a reason beyond "its an abuse of the rules". Which means you have no idea what your talking about anyway.

Loopholes apply to rules, not "Estimating magic item gold piece value" as the table is headed.


As for my own thoughts on the matter. I think its a fairly entertaining loophole. Although my question would be, what are the rules on creating magical items using spells modified by meta-magic feats.

The DMG says you pay for the higher elvel spell and makes no mention of metamagic reducers, probably because there were none in core. I'll check MiC.

Edit: No mention of it in there.

Chrono22
2010-05-29, 12:30 PM
Although my question would be, what are the rules on creating magical items using spells modified by meta-magic feats.
That's a good question. It seems, at least as far as I can tell in the SRD, the only things that adjust item costs in regards to metamagic'd spells are their heightened caster levels and spell slots.
Perhaps a decent houserule to fix this hypothetical problem would be "virtual" spell levels and spell slots.
Boci, please don't bother. I'm sure I won't be reading your further advice.

Boci
2010-05-29, 12:34 PM
Boci, please don't bother. I'm sure I won't be reading your further advice.

I humbly apologize for disagreeing with you and pointing out that you were using guidlines and not actual rules, and that 15k was far too cheap for constant delay death.

Temotei
2010-05-29, 12:34 PM
Boci, please don't bother. I'm sure I won't be reading your further advice.

Boci brought up a valid point. The DMG does state it's a guideline and an estimation, meant to be compared with other items of its level of power.

That said, I'm not sure. RAW is sometimes difficult.

Chrono22
2010-05-29, 12:37 PM
The entire book is presented as a guideline. It's semantics to disregard one guideline as RAW and include everything else.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 12:46 PM
I couldn't find it in Races of Stone, but it's in the Spell Compendium as a 4th level cleric spell. Also; I don't quite find it that overpowered, you still go unconcious, and how hard is it to take there armor off?

Would Metamagic Spell Completion from the Artificier class work for persisting the spell? I think it does, but I'm not sure.

Boci
2010-05-29, 12:48 PM
Would Metamagic Spell Completion from the Artificier class work for persisting the spell? I think it does, but I'm not sure.

Nothing to suggest it won't. If the artificer has persist spell as a feat and a wand of delay death, he can use 7 charges to persist the spell.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 12:52 PM
Nothing to suggest it won't. If the artificer has persist spell as a feat and a wand of delay death, he can use 7 charges to persist the spell.

What you said got me reading the ability again because I meant something else. My bad, thought it was for creating magic items. I need to read more before I say anything. :smallbiggrin:

Boci
2010-05-29, 12:53 PM
What you said got me reading the ability again because I meant something else. My bad, thought it was for creating magic items. I need to read more before I say anything. :smallbiggrin:

I also re-read persist spell. Delay death is non-personal and has a range of close, so you will need to make its range fixed to apply persist to it.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 12:55 PM
I also re-read persist spell. Delay death is non-personal and has a range of close, so you will need to make its range fixed to apply persist to it.

Ah you're right, so it's pretty much impossible to make the armor by RAW?

Boci
2010-05-29, 12:57 PM
Ah you're right, so it's pretty much impossible to make the armor by RAW?

Nah, there's numerous ways to change the range of a spell and I'm sure there is one to make a spell touch range. It is usually a by product of an ability that allows you to store a spell.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 01:00 PM
Nah, there's numerous ways to change the range of a spell and I'm sure there is one to make a spell touch range. It is usually a by product of an ability that allows you to store a spell.

Well, allright, but I was hoping you'd say it was, since there are a lot more abuseable spells out there then Delay Death. :smallfrown:

Boci
2010-05-29, 01:06 PM
Well, allright, but I was hoping you'd say it was, since there are a lot more abuseable spells out there then Delay Death. :smallfrown:

Looking through some CO/TO material occular spell from Lords of Madness seems to be a popular way to fix a spell's range.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 01:09 PM
Looking through some CO/TO material occular spell from Lords of Madness seems to be a popular way to fix a spell's range.

I don't know to much of item creation though, so I'm stepping out of this thread for now, was hoping I could add something usefull. To bad I didn't. :smallbiggrin:

Boci
2010-05-29, 01:12 PM
I don't know to much of item creation though, so I'm stepping out of this thread for now, was hoping I could add something usefull. To bad I didn't. :smallbiggrin:

You gave your opinion that it wasn't overpowered, and pointed out where the spell actually is, so you've actually contributed quite a lot to this thread.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 01:16 PM
You gave your opinion that it wasn't overpowered, and pointed out where the spell actually is, so you've actually contributed quite a lot to this thread.

Well, a +5 Full-Plate of Delayed Death(or +5 Deathless Full-plate, actualy) is actualy worse then a +5 Heavy Fortification full-plate, for example. Seeing as one lets you take less damage while the other just keeps you alive while your allready helpless.

And yeah, knowing where a spell is when working with it generally helps. :smallbiggrin:

Roderick_BR
2010-05-30, 04:28 PM
Your answer isn't acceptable: you've hand waived away the fact that persist doesn't raise the caster level or spell slot when combined with divine metamagic.
I don't want DM fiat, I can do that myself. I want RAW interpretation.

Please don't persist with your claims of "horrendous abuse". It's not the topic of discussion, and frankly I don't care.
The question is: Can you use these special casting modes to create permanent magic items? It's the same question if a wizard with a very high Int can make a magic item with a high save DC to it's effect.