Intresting Problems with Reincarnate and Create Undead

[Rannil]

In my evil party, during the last session, the party lost their Bard. But without funds nor the real interest(chaotic, never listened) to really resurrect her. Then the druid bought up his reincarnate spell. The bard (being a Drow) hated elfs and the evil laughs started when they realized she could be brought back as a elf. But wonder upon wonder she reincarnated as a Drow (custom table).

The first thing they realized is that the reincarnated spell never mentioned what happens to the original body, so basically they still had it. The first thing the Bard said when she saw her own body was: "Hey, we should make a undead out of it!" After same thinking they realized they knew a Vampiric Lich (who frequently uses the party as his pawns) who specializes in making sentient half-vampire undead.

So here is where my DM experience ran out. It a great, fun and creative idea and I do want to give them two Bards (if one annoyed them, two will terrorize them) but it lead to some things I couldn't find out on my self.

1) The body and Reincarnation.
The spell does mention it is being cast on a portion of the body. (or in our case the whole body, she only got a few deadly stab wounds)

"So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death."
But it never mentioned what happens to the body afterward. It would really ruin the entire idea if the body is consumed as being part of the materials.

2) What template/undead does the body end up to be?
The vampiric lich is specialized in half vampires. Which are made by a union of a vampire and non vampire, not by animating a body(maybe I am wrong?). The lich is way to narcissistic/power hungry/evil to admit he can't change a corpse into half-vampire and the party wouldn't let the vampire idea loose to and a full vampire is probably to much Level Adjustment. I was thinking to just have a (non-rotting) zombie with a blood drain/drink ability, so it looks like it can drink blood and thus can fake being a vampire.

3) The bard levels.
The body is still intact, say except a few stab wounds in the chest (easy to fix), what would happen to the bard levels, feats, skills, and experiences which is still stored in the brain of the body? I assume the undead keeps them, but with both the template level adjustment and the bard levels the undead probably is a lot stronger. Luckily it will be a NPC char either way, so I can control how much influence she has.

4) Prestige Class
Even though they share the same previous experience, I do think a half-vampire has a slight changed personality and most likely will not follow the bard route. Which prestige classes can follow up on a vampire and doesn't complete ignore the bard aspect?

5) The flavor.
And last but not least, the flavor side of the story. For some reason the idea that there are two sentient character both with the same shared memories must lead to problems. Not only the two conflicting themselves, but it feels like something that could ruin.. well not space and time, but something like that. I do think it adds the list of why the good guys want the party dead, it just sounds evil and sinful to begin with, but maybe you guys have any ideas for what kind of consequences there might be for pulling an action like this?

I hope you guys can help me and my party do something with this "special" idea and thanks in advance.

[Drakevarg]

He'd loose his bard levels, but you could bring him back as a free-willed Vampire Spawn (since you have access to Half-Vampires, it's evident you have Libris Mortis, so that part's taken care of). If you have sufficent levels to fill up the Vamp Spawn slots, then the new one could start leveling as a bard again.

Oh, and then you could go Dirgesinger.

As for the metaphysical implications... well, hm. I suppose the DM could rule since free-willed undead have their original souls, you couldn't make the body into one since the soul is currently doing something else. If the idea is too cool to pass up, then you could have alot of mages interested in cutting the vamp open and seeing how he ticks given that it's almost certaintly a unique occurance. And every cleric in the land will be calling for its destruction because it's even more of an abomination than usual.

As to how the good-aligned members of the party should feel... well one of the standard issue moral compunctions against undead is that it brings people back against their will... which is not even remotely the case here, since it was the bard's idea. If the problem is the whole "tampering with the natural order of things" bit... that depends on how much your good-aligned PCs give a damn about the natural order of things.

[nedz]

Spanner:
characters only have the one soul.
So whatever you do to the 1st body its going to be a different creature.:smallcool:

[Rannil]

He'd loose his bard levels, but you could bring him back as a free-willed Vampire Spawn (since you have access to Half-Vampires, it's evident you have Libris Mortis, so that part's taken care of). If you have sufficent levels to fill up the Vamp Spawn slots, then the new one could start leveling as a bard again.

Oh, and then you could go Dirgesinger.
Vampire Spawn still has a high ECL (and 4 LA), still takes 8 levels to finish, which imo is to costly.
Next to that the requirement of "being slain by a vampire blood drain" is hard to do.
Also a Vampire Spawn, only loses one bard level. Only the "undead classes" in the Libris Mortis seem to specify that basic rule.
Dirgesinger is great, gotta use that now too.


As for the metaphysical implications... well, hm. I suppose the DM could rule since free-willed undead have their original souls, you couldn't make the body into one since the soul is currently doing something else. If the idea is too cool to pass up, then you could have alot of mages interested in cutting the vamp open and seeing how he ticks given that it's almost certaintly a unique occurance. And every cleric in the land will be calling for its destruction because it's even more of an abomination than usual.

Spanner:
characters only have the one soul.
So whatever you do to the 1st body its going to be a different creature.:smallcool:
This sounds like something that really could end up in many opinions. And I completely forgot to think about it.
The soul.
I want to avoid the "what is a soul?"-question but isn't it able to be replicated? The body's brain is 100% intact, preserved, safe. Every memory, feelings, emotion, experiences, etc is accessible in one way or another. Whatever a soul may be the basics for a character are within the body. After the process of becoming undead she (with a magic crafted soul) would most likely not be 100% the same person as the bard, but they do share anything until the point the bard got fatally stabbed in the chest. Which is why the undead would take a different path (PrC: dirgesinger) but would stick the same set of skills and abilities. (Which why it still would go for the Bard class)
Maybe we can put a sentient banshee(or some other incorporeal that could control bodies) and melt it with the memories of the brains, making it more complicated, but removes the "soul issue".


As to how the good-aligned members of the party should feel... well one of the standard issue moral compunctions against undead is that it brings people back against their will... which is not even remotely the case here, since it was the bard's idea. If the problem is the whole "tampering with the natural order of things" bit... that depends on how much your good-aligned PCs give a damn about the natural order of things.
The mentioned "good guys" are the "main villains of the story line", the enemies of the party. It still goes up for them, although I am not sure whether they really care for the "natural order of things" due the fact they want to save the world by crashing it on the celestial plains, purging all evil.
Then their are the neutral druids(or good or evil, depending on which side you take) that want to save the world from being crashed into a plane by letting a group of evils (the party) go rampage restoring the balance of the world and weakening the good guys. They do (and should) care for the "natural order of things" but I guess they just look the other way when the party is being evil.
To add there is a (neutral) evil druid in the party, should he care for the natural order? Or just ignore because they are saving the world and the balance (by being evil)?

[Drakevarg]

On the soul-vs-brain thing: Biology might as well not exist in DnD. The brain really only houses the soul. If the soul is now kicking back in a new body, no ammount of resurrection attempts should be able to bring it back, i.e., the brain is now just a slimy clump of tissue.

Meaning if you brought the body back as a sentient undead, it would either be an entirely new soul formed out of negative energy, or you could go the Buffy route and make it so it holds all the memories of the original soul, but is still only a doppleganger. Since the bard is already evil, you probably won't notice much of a change. :smalltongue:

On the good guys bit... well, if they're the villains antagonists of the story, who cares what they think? They want you dead regardless and you probably intend to kill them in the long run. Their opinion is irrelevent.

On the druids... well, if the whole "doppleganger-soul undead" is more evil than usual, then that should be a GOOD thing, since the antagonists are putting too much good in the universe and this is balancing it out a bit.

As for YOUR druid... is he a "the balance must be kept at all costs" kind of Neutral or a "nature doesn't give a damn what you think" kind of Neutral?

[Rannil]

On the soul-vs-brain thing: Biology might as well not exist in DnD. The brain really only houses the soul. If the soul is now kicking back in a new body, no ammount of resurrection attempts should be able to bring it back, i.e., the brain is now just a slimy clump of tissue.

Meaning if you brought the body back as a sentient undead, it would either be an entirely new soul formed out of negative energy, or you could go the Buffy route and make it so it holds all the memories of the original soul, but is still only a doppleganger. Since the bard is already evil, you probably won't notice much of a change. :smalltongue:
"Only a doppelganger" fits perfectly in my vision of it. As long as the doppelganger is smart enough (Bard has int 16, copied soul should have too?) to realize she is the fake one she can become her own character plagued by memories that "aren't hers". Quite a complex.
About the "clump of tissue" part, I do remember something about non-sentient undead having memories of their live, even when the soul found rest. A dead blacksmith turned undead still has the ability to function as a blacksmith. Not sure from where I got this, but pretty sure I did encounter it in a D&D game.
Either way let's say the Lich is powerful enough to replicate a soul using the brain (or current soul) with negative energy. The Lich is already being a plot device. The real problem is that both the Lich(RPG-wise) and the party(both RL- and RPG-wise) want to give the undead a vampire theme, with only expensive LA. Maybe I should make my own.


On the good guys bit... well, if they're the villains antagonists of the story, who cares what they think? They want you dead regardless and you probably intend to kill them in the long run. Their opinion is irrelevent.

On the druids... well, if the whole "doppleganger-soul undead" is more evil than usual, then that should be a GOOD thing, since the antagonists are putting too much good in the universe and this is balancing it out a bit.

As for YOUR druid... is he a "the balance must be kept at all costs" kind of Neutral or a "nature doesn't give a damn what you think" kind of Neutral?
I, the DM, should care for that motivates the good guys. The party, half of the time, even listens to what they say before attacking. They most likely will laugh at the cleric that wants to "fix" the bard. If you think about it there is "the real soul in a fake body" and "a fake soul in the real body". Hey and laughing is a good thing. =p

And the party druid, he is the balance druid (only evil because the world is unbalanced with good), kinda forget I don't control what he thinks, but still I wondered if the druids really care. There is balance in this "real-ness" and "fake-ness", sort off. Next to that the druids hired the party, and are getting what they wanted, like you say. Maybe they care later, if and when the world is restored.

But I was thinking higher-up. Would the gods care that the party basically "creates life". Guess not with the resurrection, reincarnation and create undead spells not being taboo by gods. But there is this nagging voice that says that says that "creating a soul with negative energy and fake putting memories in it" will never end well. It is like pushing random buttons in the core on of the world, you just don't do it, but no one knows why.
Enough self rambling for me.

Just help me find a nice blood drinking undead without to many ECL or LA (I would even take the 4 LA, if it wasn't for the total of 8 levels spend) because the rest is so much up for the debate I will end up making my own rules there.
Owh but I do love to hear opinions about it. :smallwink:

[Drakevarg]

About the "clump of tissue" part, I do remember something about non-sentient undead having memories of their live, even when the soul found rest. A dead blacksmith turned undead still has the ability to function as a blacksmith. Not sure from where I got this, but pretty sure I did encounter it in a D&D game.

Not by RAW. A mindless undead, such as a zombie or skeleton, has no skill points, i.e., no ranks in Craft (Blacksmithing). An undead blacksmith WITH the capacity for thought knows how to blacksmith, yes... because he's got his own soul, even if it is under the sway of undeadness/the control of their necromancer.


Either way let's say the Lich is powerful enough to replicate a soul using the brain (or current soul) with negative energy. The Lich is already being a plot device. The real problem is that both the Lich(RPG-wise) and the party(both RL- and RPG-wise) want to give the undead a vampire theme, with only expensive LA. Maybe I should make my own.

Unless you wanted to homebrew up your own lesser vampire, there's not much in the way of options in that regard.


I, the DM, should care for that motivates the good guys. The party, half of the time, even listens to what they say before attacking. They most likely will laugh at the cleric that wants to "fix" the bard. If you think about it there is "the real soul in a fake body" and "a fake soul in the real body". Hey and laughing is a good thing. =p

Oh, you're the DM? Well then of course you oughta care. The PCs probably won't, except to have a better idea with what to taunt the antagonists over. I'm sure they'd be all aghast at the abomination the PCs have made and will want to kill them slightly more than they did before. But, since they intend to drop the whole place into Celestia anyway, perhaps they'll just shrug and say "that'll be dealt with in the long run either way."


And the party druid, he is the balance druid (only evil because the world is unbalanced with good), kinda forget I don't control what he thinks, but still I wondered if the druids really care. There is balance in this "real-ness" and "fake-ness", sort off. Next to that the druids hired the party, and are getting what they wanted, like you say. Maybe they care later, if and when the world is restored.

Well, if the PCs don't know when to stop, they'll be making enemies of the druids anyway. If they DO know when to stop, they should stop right on the line that says "there's enough good in the universe to allow an affront to existance like your doppleganger-soul to balance it out."


But I was thinking higher-up. Would the gods care that the party basically "creates life". Guess not with the resurrection, reincarnation and create undead spells not being taboo by gods. But there is this nagging voice that says that says that "creating a soul with negative energy and fake putting memories in it" will never end well. It is like pushing random buttons in the core on of the world, you just don't do it, but no one knows why.
Enough self rambling for me.

Throw in a plot hook. Maybe by imbalancing the number of souls in existance or somesuch, you've activated a Night of the Living Dead scenario and every corpse on the planet is going to wake up with the munchies. Hell, that might get your job done early, since you just let a helluva lot of evil into the world.


Just help me find a nice blood drinking undead without to many ECL or LA (I would even take the 4 LA, if it wasn't for the total of 8 levels spend) because the rest is so much up for the debate I will end up making my own rules there.

Yeah, I think homebrew is the best option. There simply aren't very many weakling vamps out there. You could just reflavor a half-vampire as a "lesser vampire" and run with that.

[Rannil]

Not by RAW. A mindless undead, such as a zombie or skeleton, has no skill points, i.e., no ranks in Craft (Blacksmithing). An undead blacksmith WITH the capacity for thought knows how to blacksmith, yes... because he's got his own soul, even if it is under the sway of undeadness/the control of their necromancer.
True, no int, no skills. I still wonder what I remembered there, or from where.


Throw in a plot hook. Maybe by imbalancing the number of souls in existance or somesuch, you've activated a Night of the Living Dead scenario and every corpse on the planet is going to wake up with the munchies. Hell, that might get your job done early, since you just let a helluva lot of evil into the world.
"When There's No More Room Left In Hell,The Dead Will Walk The Earth."
Quite easy when making more evil souls. There are even songs with that quote, so the bards can sing it too.

As far as the the party goes, it all depends on their actions (and the random rolls). Only time could tell.



Homebrew, I think I just take a Necropolitan, give it blood drain and "present" it like a vampire. Would be +1LA I guess, blood drain is pretty heavy but to limited to really shine. Pinning opponents is not easy for a bard (especially with str9) and the fact you must use it can hurt if the situation doesn't offer combat. It would loose one bard lvl (LM rules), but stays the same level due LA. The undead is better off then the bard who looses one level due reincarnate and gets nothing back.

I think I got a figured out, thanks a lot.

[KillianHawkeye]

This reminds me of the time I envisioned a BBEG vampire whose soul had also returned as a ghost (whose mission was to aid in the destruction of the vampire version of himself).



As for your "lesser vampire", you could use the Corpse Creature template from BoVD and add the Bloodthirsty Zombie variant from Libris Mortis to give it a bite & blood-drain attack for only +2 CR (sorry, no LA given for either, but it's an NPC, right?).

EDIT: Bloodthirsty Zombie's blood-drain isn't as effective as a vampire's. Target takes 1 Con damage when critted with the bite attack. On the plus side, it doesn't require grappling, and they get Improved Crit (bite).

[Jair Barik]

I want to avoid the "what is a soul?"-question but isn't it able to be replicated?

Okay what you do is this.
Have them take the body to Vamp but he says he cannot do what they ask of him. he keeps the body though and secretly re animates it as a fully fledged vamp. Later in the game the players meet the 'bard' as a fully fledged villain in its own right. It is important you have some sort of NPC with them at the time who has hired the party to help him kill a vile evil (the bard) that has been preying upon the society and creating an evil cult. When they meet bardy MC Vampire insert the following dialogue.

NPC: Die monster. You don't belong in this world!

Bard: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by you who wished to pay my master tribute (points at the party).

NPC:Tribute!?! You steal men's souls and make them your slaves! (misunderstanding the vamps meaning)

Bard: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions....

NPC: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill needs a savior such as you!

Bard: What is a soul? A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk.... Have at you!

[Rannil]

This reminds me of the time I envisioned a BBEG vampire whose soul had also returned as a ghost (whose mission was to aid in the destruction of the vampire version of himself).



As for your "lesser vampire", you could use the Corpse Creature template from BoVD and add the Bloodthirsty Zombie variant from Libris Mortis to give it a bite & blood-drain attack for only +2 CR (sorry, no LA given for either, but it's an NPC, right?).

EDIT: Bloodthirsty Zombie's blood-drain isn't as effective as a vampire's. Target takes 1 Con damage when critted with the bite attack. On the plus side, it doesn't require grappling, and they get Improved Crit (bite).

CR is like the LA for NPCs. (Only Only 1 CR has the strength of 4 players.)
I could do whatever I want CR or LA based for a NPC but I want to stay as true to the original character. So with the same levels in bard without towering above the party due LA (or CR for that matter). And although I don't really think it would that much of a different but the corpse creature does have abilities score modifiers and even natural armor. I believe savage species rates that at 2 LA?
Bloodthirsty Zombie may be a option, it's a better blood draining mechanic. Maybe I should combine the two mechanics, removing the pinning certainly (instead doubtfully) makes it the 1 LA worth.


Okay what you do is this.
Have them take the body to Vamp but he says he cannot do what they ask of him. he keeps the body though and secretly re animates it as a fully fledged vamp. Later in the game the players meet the 'bard' as a fully fledged villain in its own right. It is important you have some sort of NPC with them at the time who has hired the party to help him kill a vile evil (the bard) that has been preying upon the society and creating an evil cult. When they meet bardy MC Vampire insert the following dialogue.

NPC: Die monster. You don't belong in this world!

Bard: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by you who wished to pay my master tribute (points at the party).

NPC:Tribute!?! You steal men's souls and make them your slaves! (misunderstanding the vamps meaning)

Bard: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions....

NPC: Your words are as empty as your soul! Mankind ill needs a savior such as you!

Bard: What is a soul? A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk.... Have at you!
That's a Castlevania quote if my memories is correct. *googles* Yay! It does.

Shame a plot device like that doesn't really work with a evil party. The bard would just high five her vampire counterpart for being a good evil.

[Jair Barik]

Even better! Have it so the party back stabs whatever good NPC they are working with, would be funny.

Even funnier if any of them get the refrence.

[grolim]

Acually since the new body has a new look, I would be tempted instead to take my old body and turn it in for any reward. Then i get the money from the good guys to fund my evil, am declared dead so enemies stop looking for me.