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View Full Version : [3.5] Druid Prestige Classes that DON'T get Wild Shape



Zovc
2010-05-29, 01:20 PM
I'm giving up wild shape as part of an ACF. You heard me right, I'm giving up Wild Shape. Here and now (level 1), getting +8 to my AC is far more worthwhile than something at level 4.

So, I'm hoping to PrC "out" of Druid as soon as possible so that I don't regret this decision too much. A prestige class that stacks with druid levels to grant me wild shape may or may not work (I haven't asked DM about that yet), but I'm wondering what else is available to me before I pursue that.

This is a gestalt game, so I'm looking at Druid 1//LA 1 right now. After that, I'll probably do Druid X, PRC1 Y, PRC 2 Z//LA 1, [ToB Class] A, Psychic Warrior A.

Greenish
2010-05-29, 01:25 PM
I'm giving up wild shape as part of an ACF. You heard me right, I'm giving up Wild Shape. Here and now (level 1), getting +8 to my AC is far more worthwhile than something at level 4.Wildshape is level 5. Consider your nits picked.

Zovc
2010-05-29, 01:27 PM
Wildshape is level 5. Consider your nits picked.

Even better, I lost even less. Not only that, but I don't sincerely expect to make it that far along. lol

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-29, 01:28 PM
You could always go Shapeshift Druid and take TDO's Battle Shifter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74521).

Can't be much actual help, I never play normal Druids.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 01:29 PM
Druid with the Ranger/monk ability ACF from UA, right? You could play a shifter and trade in your animal companion for the Beast Spirit ACF. I just like that ACF though, so just a suggestion.

At the other side of the gestalt you could take Totemist or Incarnate so you can be awesome in melee as well. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and just a question, why would you want to PrC out anyway? The class features you get from the ACF are pretty nice as well.

tyckspoon
2010-05-29, 01:32 PM
Even better, I lost even less. Not only that, but I don't sincerely expect to make it that far along. lol

..then why are you asking? You'll generally need to be level 5 before you even qualify for most PrCs anyway.

Zovc
2010-05-29, 01:36 PM
Oh, and just a question, why would you want to PrC out anyway? The class features you get from the ACF are pretty nice as well.

The other benefits from the ACF are marginal. Moving faster is the only really relevant one in this campaign, as the entire game is going to be in a dungeon (the world's largest dungeon, mind you). Favored enemy will come up occasionally, but I'm not too worried about it.


..then why are you asking? You'll generally need to be level 5 before you even qualify for most PrCs anyway.

Just because I'd like to plan out what I'm going to do with the character, and I might need to start placing Skill Points in certain locations anyways.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 01:44 PM
The other benefits from the ACF are marginal. Moving faster is the only really relevant one in this campaign, as the entire game is going to be in a dungeon (the world's largest dungeon, mind you). Favored enemy will come up occasionally, but I'm not too worried about it.

You also get more AC, and if you take the shifter ACF the benefits from that as well. Oh, and can I suggest Hierophant as a PRC on one side for later on?

I'll recommend MoI for totemist and Incarnate again, I really like those. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and you said your party is pretty high powered? Can you tell me what classes they are?(Might have been in the other thread)

Zovc
2010-05-29, 02:01 PM
You also get more AC, and if you take the shifter ACF the benefits from that as well. Oh, and can I suggest Hierophant as a PRC on one side for later on?

I'll recommend MoI for totemist and Incarnate again, I really like those. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and you said your party is pretty high powered? Can you tell me what classes they are?(Might have been in the other thread)

I get -4 AC if I take Shifter ACF because I lose Anthropomorphic Bat (+6 Wis and small size).

Totemist is not a prestige class, and isn't what I'm asking for. I know you're trying to help, but I've gotten more suggestion for the other side of my gestalt than I have anything relevant to OP.

We have...
Zopyrus - Hamatula HD 1/Mineral Warrior LA 1
Svari - Water Orc Feral 1/Lycanthrope HD 1 (were-polar bear)
Ismik - Dragonwrought Kobold Archivist 1/Factotum 1
Yurei - Fey Sorceress 1/Shugenja 1

Although, with all due respect, that isn't really relevant to my question, either.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 02:11 PM
I get -4 AC if I take Shifter ACF because I lose Anthropomorphic Bat (+6 Wis and small size).

Totemist is not a prestige class, and isn't what I'm asking for. I know you're trying to help, but I've gotten more suggestion for the other side of my gestalt than I have anything relevant to OP.

We have...
Zopyrus - Hamatula HD 1/Mineral Warrior LA 1
Svari - Water Orc Feral 1/Lycanthrope HD 1 (were-polar bear)
Ismik - Dragonwrought Kobold Archivist 1/Factotum 1
Yurei - Fey Sorceress 1/Shugenja 1

Although, with all due respect, that isn't really relevant to my question, either.

Ah, really high powered campaign, I see. That's why I asked to be honest so I can give some fitting advice.

I'd actualy drop the ACF and take Master of Many Forms at one side of your gestalt at level 6. Warshaper is also nice at the other side of your gestalt. This isn't really what your asking for though.

I don't know to many druid PrC's without Wild Shaping but there's the Holt Warden from Complete Champion. Sorry I'm not much help here, but I'll keep looking. :smallfrown:


Edit: I found some PrC's, Defintely not the best, but it'll give you some choices at least. :smalltongue:
Forest Master (Faiths and Pantheons)
Stormlord (Faiths and Pantheon/Complete Divine)
Waveservant (Faiths and Pantheons)
Serpent Slayer (Serpent Kingdoms)
Divine Disciple (Player's Guide to Faerun)
Walker in the Waste (Sandstorm) This one might actualy be pretty good for you. Seeing as you play gestalt and all.

...and then I got bored. If it helps, great, if not, I didn't expect it to. :smallbiggrin:

Pluto
2010-05-29, 02:43 PM
I'm giving up wild shape as part of an ACF. You heard me right, I'm giving up Wild Shape. Here and now (level 1), getting +8 to my AC is far more worthwhile than something at level 4.
You know that the Shapeshift variant gives up the Animal Companion, right?

...

If you aren't getting many responses, it's because there aren't very many suitable answers. Druid PrC's lose so much - even with Shapeshift - that they're rarely worth using. The Demented One's homebrew (linked above) is probably your best bet, splitting druid casting across both sides of your progression. The first 3 levels, anyway.

If you want official solutions:
Contemplative (CDiv) increases your spell selection and gives a few extra defensive abilities.
Geomancer (CDiv) sucks less in Gestalt and might even be decent in this case.
Nightcloak (CDiv web enhancement, F&P) can work. It doesn't gain much, but it's something.
Bane of Infidels (MotW) allows a bit of CL abuse.
Holt Warden (CChamp) gives a few new abilities, whose utility will vary wildly by DM.
Windwalker (F&P) is neat, but it's fairly feat-intensive and it excludes Anthropomorphic Bat silliness.


I wouldn't take any of them, myself. Druids have a great framework (3/4 BA, 20/20 casting, good progressions for both important saves, d8 HD, 4+Int skills) and actual class features (Shapeshift becomes more versatile and its numbers increase with extra Druid levels and there's not much that improves it better than more Druid).

edit:
edit-ninja'd! mostly.
And Divine Abjurant Champion (via its Adaptation section) might also work, but with the Druid spell list and in a gestalt setting, it becomes a bit less exciting.

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-29, 02:47 PM
If you do decide to use Battle Sifter then look at DaTedinator's Alternate Form Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78186). They are totally awesome.

Greenish
2010-05-29, 02:54 PM
You know that the Shapeshift variant gives up the Animal Companion, right?He's using the UA variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid).

Hyooz
2010-05-29, 02:55 PM
The only way its worth giving up Wildshape is if you aren't going to get to that level anyway. If you are getting to the level where you care about PrCs, you're getting to the point where you get Wildshape, so you want Master of Many Forms or some other Wildshape presitge class (or just straight druid).

The question kind of answers itself.

Pluto
2010-05-29, 02:59 PM
He's using the UA variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid).
D'oh. I always forget that one.

+8 AC was making Shapeshift start to sound like a reasonable option.

Zovc
2010-05-29, 02:59 PM
You know that the Shapeshift variant gives up the Animal Companion, right?

You're thinking of a different variant. I'm taking the one which gives up Wild Shape and armor proficiencies to get Monk's AC bonus and Speed Bonus, Ranger's Favored Enemy, Track Feat, and Swift Tracking.

Thanks for pointing those out, Pluto. You too, Ferrin.

The fact of the matter is, Hy007, I don't plan on making it to a level where Prestige Classes will become relevant. I just want to see what my options are in case I do make it to that level. This way, if I need to put skill points in strange places, I can lay some groundwork for that now instead of hoping I have enough skill points between levels 4 and 5, for example.

Pluto
2010-05-29, 03:02 PM
I can't remember -- Does PHB2 retraining work with variants or just ACF's?

Hyooz
2010-05-29, 03:05 PM
The fact of the matter is, Hy007, I don't plan on making it to a level where Prestige Classes will become relevant. I just want to see what my options are in case I do make it to that level. This way, if I need to put skill points in strange places, I can lay some groundwork for that now instead of hoping I have enough skill points between levels 4 and 5, for example.

... Hy007? What?

So you don't plan on getting there, but you currently ARE planning on getting there, hence this thread.

I'll just recommend the Shapeshift variant like everyone else so you can pretty much get the best of both worlds.

Moriato
2010-05-29, 03:09 PM
I'm partial to Lion of Talisid (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004b), myself.

Levels stack for determining animal comanion, plus you get the Exalted Companion feat, you get 10/10 casting, 8/10 wild shape, Pounce, Scent, Haste, Fear immunity, and a Holy Word-esque SLA at the cap.

Only problem is it's from the book of exalted deeds, so you'll need to be Neutral Good to get into it.

Pluto
2010-05-29, 03:10 PM
Actually, Lion of Talisid. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004b) No question. If you can stomach being Exalted anyway.

(Yes, it gives Wild Shape among other things so it's kind of outside the parameters. Technically.)

edit:
Bah. Ninja'd again.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 03:13 PM
... Hy007? What?

So you don't plan on getting there, but you currently ARE planning on getting there, hence this thread.

I'll just recommend the Shapeshift variant like everyone else so you can pretty much get the best of both worlds.

The shapeshift variant doesn't work with the ACF he's taking, as well as sucking for small sized creatures.

And he doesn't expect to get to that level, he just wants to cover it just in case. :smallconfused:

Greenish
2010-05-29, 03:15 PM
D'oh. I always forget that one.For a good reason, I'd say.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 03:24 PM
For a good reason, I'd say.

Not really, I like it for flavor reasons, as well as giving less bookkeeping and balancing it out a bit compared to other classes. :smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-05-29, 03:28 PM
Not really, I like it for flavor reasons, as well as giving less bookkeeping and balancing it out a bit compared to other classes. :smallbiggrin:Most humanoids don't have the teeth and jaws required to make biting an effective combat strategy against armed people, and it feels wrong to me to play a druid without chewing faces.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 03:30 PM
Most humanoids don't have the teeth and jaws required to make biting an effective combat strategy against armed people, and it feels wrong to me to play a druid without chewing faces.

Thing is it gives a more sagely feel then being able to wild-shape. A very dodgy sage who can run really fast, but still.

Besides, you have your AC and summons for the chewy chewy chomp chomp part.

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-29, 03:35 PM
Thing is it gives a more sagely feel then being able to wild-shape. A very dodgy sage who can run really fast, but still.

Besides, you have your AC and summons for the chewy chewy chomp chomp part.

I hadn't looked but I quite like that ACF. Combine Fast Movement with Woodland Stride and Natural Step and you hav a guy who can sprint through a forest without pausing. Very Druidy in my opinion.

Greenish
2010-05-29, 03:39 PM
Besides, you have your AC and summons for the chewy chewy chomp chomp part.But it's not the same thing as feeling the blood on your tongue as the skull gives in with a delightful crunch and your fangs meet in the place that formerly had only known conscious thought. :smallwink:

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 03:44 PM
But it's not the same thing as feeling the blood on your tongue as the skull gives in with a delightful crunch and your fangs meet in the place that formerly had only known conscious thought. :smallwink:

I'll think about that when I play a Wildshape Ranger/MoMF/Nature's Warrior. :smallbiggrin:

Zovc
2010-05-29, 03:46 PM
... Hy007? What?

Sorry, I have no idea why I thought you were a super-spy.

On Lion of Talisid, that looks like a solid choice with easy skill requirements to boot. Sorry if I mislead anyone: Gaining wild shape is fine, requiring it is not.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 03:48 PM
Sorry, I have no idea why I thought you were a super-spy.

On Lion of Talisid, that looks like a solid choice with easy skill requirements to boot. Sorry if I mislead anyone: Gaining wild shape is fine, requiring it is not.

Don't blame yourself, we're the ones who failed the save. :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, that would have made it a bit easier.

Moriato
2010-05-29, 04:38 PM
Sorry, I have no idea why I thought you were a super-spy.

On Lion of Talisid, that looks like a solid choice with easy skill requirements to boot. Sorry if I mislead anyone: Gaining wild shape is fine, requiring it is not.

Yesh, its only problem is that you have to take a feat that's... basically useless. It gives you +1 on one roll per day... yay. Definately not worth a feat, but meh, it's not the only PRC that does that.

Maybe your DM will give you something in place of Lion of Talisid's wild shape, but there's enough other goodies to make it worth it even if you don't get anything for it.

Greenish
2010-05-29, 04:41 PM
Maybe your DM will give you something in place of Lion of Talisid's wild shape, but there's enough other goodies to make it worth it even if you don't get anything for it.His DM doesn't have anything against wild shape, he's skipping it for low level survivability.

Moriato
2010-05-29, 04:45 PM
His DM doesn't have anything against wild shape, he's skipping it for low level survivability.

No, I got that. It's just that since he gave up wild shape, I don't think Lion of Talasid would give it back to him. Although it might, now that I think about it. It does give you wild shape even if you don't already have it.

My thought was that he'd be missing out totally on one of the class features, but maybe that's not the case.

Pluto
2010-05-29, 04:53 PM
No, I got that. It's just that since he gave up wild shape, I don't think Lion of Talasid would give it back to him. Although it might, now that I think about it. It does give you wild shape even if you don't already have it.

My thought was that he'd be missing out totally on one of the class features, but maybe that's not the case.

"Wild Shape (Su): At 3rd level, a lion of Talisid gains the ability to turn himself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. This works exactly as the druid's wild shape ability. "

There's nothing to indicate that Rangers (or variant Druids) don't gain similar benefits.

Togo
2010-05-29, 06:16 PM
What's that pclass that combines monk with divine spellcasting? That could work well for you since you're going for that flavour anyway..

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 06:22 PM
What's that pclass that combines monk with divine spellcasting? That could work well for you since you're going for that flavour anyway..

Sacred Fist from Complete Divine. And the flavor he's looking for is limburger.

Zovc
2010-05-29, 06:27 PM
And the flavor he's looking for is limburger.

Wat?

Actually, I'm kind of giving up on Monk and/or Unarmed Swordsage--DM has ruled Swordsage's AC bonus won't stack (and I didn't expect Monk's to), so I'm probably just going to do Psywar on the other side of my gestalt if I don't find anything more fun.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 06:31 PM
Wat?

Actually, I'm kind of giving up on Monk and/or Unarmed Swordsage--DM has ruled Swordsage's AC bonus won't stack (and I didn't expect Monk's to), so I'm probably just going to do Psywar on the other side of my gestalt if I don't find anything more fun.

Limburger, it's a cheese. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and are you going to keep wild-shape if you go the psywar route?

Zovc
2010-05-29, 06:38 PM
Limburger, it's a cheese. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and are you going to keep wild-shape if you go the psywar route?

Unfortunately, no, but I already have two 1d6 claws, and will eventually get to make rake attacks while grappling. (<-From the feral template.)

1d6 isn't that impressive, but I am a small creature, so that's my equivalent of a longsword. :smallsigh:

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 06:40 PM
Hmm allright, hope your stats will be high enough to melee without wildshape.

Zovc
2010-05-29, 06:42 PM
Hmm allright, hope your stats will be high enough to melee without wildshape.

Probably not. XD

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 06:47 PM
Probably not. XD

Well, then I hope you'll make for a good comedy relief character. :smallbiggrin:

Zovc
2010-05-29, 07:01 PM
Well, then I hope you'll make for a good comedy relief character. :smallbiggrin:

Hey, I'll probably end up getting Wild Shape, just a few levels late--via Lion of Talisid. :P

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 07:04 PM
Hey, I'll probably end up getting Wild Shape, just a few levels late--via Lion of Talisid. :P

I don't think your Dm will let you stack your druid levels with it, even though it's raw.

Zovc
2010-05-29, 07:07 PM
Meh, it's still Wild Shape.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 07:08 PM
Meh, it's still Wild Shape.

Yes, a very nerfed version of it. :smallconfused:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-05-30, 01:21 AM
Also consider using the Druidic Avenger variant also in UA/SRD to trade out your animal companion and spontaneous SNAs to get a few nice Barbarian abilities. Edit: And be sure to trade your Rage for Whirling Frenzy!

You could switch Feral for Divine Minion (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) and jump straight into Master of Many Forms. You'll be able to take the form of a Cave or War Troll at level 3. Get Aberration Blood and Aberrant Wild Shape from LoM with Assume Supernatural Ability and/or Metamorphic Transfer and use your free-action-wild-shape-at-will to pull some serious shenanigans. (Shape of a Beholder, use eye rays (free); shape of an Umber Hulk, gaze attack (free); shape of a Cateblopas (MM2), Death Ray (standard); shape of a Thought Eater/Slayer, Ethereal Jaunt (move), and end your turn on the ethereal plane and thus invisible and immune to nearly every attack, you can jaunt back as another free action at the start of your next turn.)

gbprime
2010-05-30, 08:30 AM
How's your CHA bonus? If it's good, you could PrC into Mystic Wanderer from Magic of Faerun. It gets CHA bonus to AC, which stacks with your WIS bonus to AC. And you qualify after level 5 with one feat.

For a super AC build, consider dipping 1 level of cloistered cleric and getting Air and Plant Devotions. Very druid-ish feel to it, and if you make it to level 6 when the PrC kicks in, you should have little to no trouble hitting a 30 AC (more if you spend spells to enhance it).

Zovc
2010-05-30, 01:27 PM
How's your CHA bonus? If it's good, you could PrC into Mystic Wanderer from Magic of Faerun. It gets CHA bonus to AC, which stacks with your WIS bonus to AC. And you qualify after level 5 with one feat.

For a super AC build, consider dipping 1 level of cloistered cleric and getting Air and Plant Devotions. Very druid-ish feel to it, and if you make it to level 6 when the PrC kicks in, you should have little to no trouble hitting a 30 AC (more if you spend spells to enhance it).

My Charisma 'bonus' is -2. >.>

Gorbash
2010-05-30, 03:02 PM
To answer to the OP:

Earth Dreamer (Races of the Stone). Although you can take it only at 7th or 8th lvl, I'm not sure. It's made for a Druid, but it advances any spellcasting.