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Rin_Hunter
2010-05-29, 05:48 PM
Ok... So here is a tale of stupidity on all fronts. In order to become Epic in my setting, a character must face a powerful challenge solo. So what did I make the gestalt Hexblade 20//Warlock 20?

A Titan. Yup... I thought this should stop him becoming Epic too easily. The fight lasted 2 round. 3 if you include his surprise round.

He starts by saying something to the Titan and halfway through his sentence he shouts "Eldritch Blast!", giving him a free shot before the battle even begins. This is a normal tactic of his when up against NPCs, so I pretty much expected it as soon as he started talking.

So I have the Titan charge in and attack, dealing a fair amount of damage.

His first attack is to get to 10ft by 5ft-stepping back and using Eldritch Glaive (Dragon Magic), giving him a Full-Attack against the Titan. He has a feat from the Complete Arcane (Or Mage, pretty sure Arcane) that allows him to take 10 on caster level checks and he has Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, so he can pretty much overcome the thing's SR without rolling. He does a fair amount of damage and takes the Titan down to about 2/3 Hp.

I realise that a full-attack from the titan should take him down, but I do it anyway because I'm known for rolling 1s a lot and I figure one will miss and he'll survive. I roll two d20s twice...

Four 1s. Yup. This is the start of how stupid my luck is. As a player I'm horrible and die a fair amount because of my luck. I roll damage really well, but d20s hate me. So the Titan misses four attacks...

Ok, so this player then uses Maximise Spell-Like Ability on his Eldritch Blast, so his full attack with his Eldritch Glaive now does 240 damage to the Titan, taking it to -39 Con by my altered Hp rules (See Variant Systems thread for details).

So... Yeah... I still need to look up whether that was a legal move or not, but I'm pretty sure he didn't cheat, even by accident (Feel free to correct me because I'll love you forever if you do). I hate my luck and that player.

One Eldritch Blast and 8 attacks with a weapon that hits touch AC. That's how to take down a Titan, apparently.

Darklord Xavez
2010-05-29, 05:51 PM
What you do in that situation is you FUDGE THE DICE. They can never win, because the dice are on your side. And besides, you should have pitted him against an outsider. They're much tougher. Possibly a fallen solar?
-Xavez

arguskos
2010-05-29, 05:54 PM
What you do in that situation is you FUDGE THE DICE. They can never win, because the dice are on your side. And besides, you should have pitted him against an outsider. They're much tougher. Possibly a fallen solar?
-Xavez
Why even roll then, if he can never win because you cheat? :smallannoyed: Just say "you die, lol" and move on to playing something else more fun. Dominos, perhaps?

More seriously, that's some terrible advice. The answer is never "they can never win, because you cheat".

Rin_Hunter
2010-05-29, 05:55 PM
What you do in that situation is you FUDGE THE DICE. They can never win, because the dice are on your side. And besides, you should have pitted him against an outsider. They're much tougher. Possibly a fallen solar?
-Xavez

Well, I thought the challenge should be doable, so that he could obtain Epic. I didn't want to stop him, I just wanted to make it hard.

And my face went into rage mode when I saw those four 1s :smalltongue: Couldn't hide that and it kinda makes the story that much funnier for everyone but me.

Obrysii
2010-05-29, 05:56 PM
Why didn't the Titan make use of its spell-like abilities?

Rin_Hunter
2010-05-29, 05:59 PM
Why didn't the Titan make use of its spell-like abilities?

It was a solo match. Didn't want him to get splattered too badly. A light beating was what I was going for.

If I had wanted him splattered, then I would have changed its Quick Spell-Like Ability to Cure Moderate Wounds instead of Chain Lightning and started the battle Invisible.

true_shinken
2010-05-29, 06:00 PM
Why didn't the Titan make use of its spell-like abilities?

This. The Monster Manual even suggests that you use 'em.

Rin_Hunter
2010-05-29, 06:05 PM
This. The Monster Manual even suggests that you use 'em.

See my last post. There are a few ways I could have defeated him if I had used the Spell-Like Abilities and I did want him to win. Didn't think it would be that easy.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 06:05 PM
Ok... So here is a tale of stupidity on all fronts. In order to become Epic in my setting, a character must face a powerful challenge solo. So what did I make the gestalt Hexblade 20//Warlock 20?

A Titan. Yup... I thought this should stop him becoming Epic too easily. The fight lasted 2 round. 3 if you include his surprise round.

He starts by saying something to the Titan and halfway through his sentence he shouts "Eldritch Blast!", giving him a free shot before the battle even begins. This is a normal tactic of his when up against NPCs, so I pretty much expected it as soon as he started talking.

So I have the Titan charge in and attack, dealing a fair amount of damage.

His first attack is to get to 10ft by 5ft-stepping back and using Eldritch Glaive (Dragon Magic), giving him a Full-Attack against the Titan. He has a feat from the Complete Arcane (Or Mage, pretty sure Arcane) that allows him to take 10 on caster level checks and he has Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, so he can pretty much overcome the thing's SR without rolling. He does a fair amount of damage and takes the Titan down to about 2/3 Hp.

I realise that a full-attack from the titan should take him down, but I do it anyway because I'm known for rolling 1s a lot and I figure one will miss and he'll survive. I roll two d20s twice...

Four 1s. Yup. This is the start of how stupid my luck is. As a player I'm horrible and die a fair amount because of my luck. I roll damage really well, but d20s hate me. So the Titan misses four attacks...

Ok, so this player then uses Maximise Spell-Like Ability on his Eldritch Blast, so his full attack with his Eldritch Glaive now does 240 damage to the Titan, taking it to -39 Con by my altered Hp rules (See Variant Systems thread for details).

So... Yeah... I still need to look up whether that was a legal move or not, but I'm pretty sure he didn't cheat, even by accident (Feel free to correct me because I'll love you forever if you do). I hate my luck and that player.

One Eldritch Blast and 8 attacks with a weapon that hits touch AC. That's how to take down a Titan, apparently.

I'm surprised he doesn't have Utterdark Blast. You could have let him fight a titan who instead of a hammer uses a bow throws weapons, works well with Brutal Throw from CA. :smallbiggrin:

Rin_Hunter
2010-05-29, 06:07 PM
I'm surprised he doesn't have Utterdark Blast. You could have let him fight a titan who instead of a hammer uses a bow. :smallbiggrin:

He did say that he wished he'd taken it :smallbiggrin:

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-29, 06:09 PM
You shoulda at least have popped a quickened chain lightning after missing all of your attacks. It might have forced your player to spend a round recovering hp or at least done enough damage to make him reconsider staying right next to your monster.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 06:09 PM
He did say that he wished he'd taken it :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and doesn't he have incredible saves + mettle? I'd imagine your spell-like abilities not making much of a dent. Though Gate, SNA and Etherealness could help.

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-29, 06:11 PM
Or else you could have given the Titan something to increase his touch AC a bit, since you knew well beforehand what kind of attacks the player was capable of.

Rin_Hunter
2010-05-29, 06:17 PM
I love how you lot keep suggesting ways of killing him when I keep saying I wanted it to be difficult, not a player kill :smalltongue: You guys are like the little lawful evil outsiders on my shoulder shouting "Kill him!" and I'm finding it hard to resist~ But fear not, I'm building a Dragon to slaughter him with.

At any rate, Heaxblade/Warlock is a potent combination.

Ernir
2010-05-29, 06:19 PM
It was a solo match. Didn't want him to get splattered too badly. A light beating was what I was going for.

Yeah. Part of the problem would be that the SLAs play an important role in the Titan's CR. Without them, that Titan is not really very dangerous. =/

Seriously, he was facing a what, CR 15 solo monster?

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 06:20 PM
I prefer Binder/Crusader though. :smallbiggrin:

But no, I'm not giving ways to kill him, I'm giving ways to make it more challenging. Which... could give a chance to kill him.

Oh, and does he know about the Enlightened Spirit PrC from Complete Mage? It's pretty damn nice for gestalt.

chiasaur11
2010-05-29, 06:24 PM
Why even roll then, if he can never win because you cheat? :smallannoyed: Just say "you die, lol" and move on to playing something else more fun. Dominos, perhaps?

More seriously, that's some terrible advice. The answer is never "they can never win, because you cheat".

The usual followup game is a variant of "Kill the Carrier" I generally find.

Only replace "Carrier" with "DM". The kill part is seldom modified.

Rin_Hunter
2010-05-29, 06:27 PM
Yeah. Part of the problem would be that the SLAs play an important role in the Titan's CR. Without them, that Titan is not really very dangerous. =/

Seriously, he was facing a what, CR 15 solo monster?

It would have dropped him had I not rolled four 1s in a single round.

Ferrin: I shall have to check that class out, but I don't think he does.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 06:33 PM
It would have dropped him had I not rolled four 1s in a single round.

Ferrin: I shall have to check that class out, but I don't think he does.

Ah allright, show him some of the invocations in that book while you're at it. I like Crawling Eye and Nightmares Made Real myself.

Rin_Hunter
2010-05-29, 06:43 PM
Ah allright, show him some of the invocations in that book while you're at it. I like Crawling Eye and Nightmares Made Real myself.

He does look at the Invocations in there... And Cityscape... And Dragon Magic... and wherever else they are~

We often have a pile book during a session.

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 06:46 PM
He does look at the Invocations in there... And Cityscape... And Dragon Magic... and wherever else they are~

We often have a pile book during a session.

Ah allright, I'll take this chance to say that I love Devil's Whispers from Cityscape.

You should be glad he isn't much of an optimizer though, a level of binder with hellfire warlock and enlightened spirit would have pumped his EB damage sky high. :smallbiggrin:

Rin_Hunter
2010-05-29, 06:48 PM
Ah allright, I'll take this chance to say that I love Devil's Whispers from Cityscape.

You should be glad he isn't much of an optimizer though, a level of binder with hellfire warlock and enlightened spirit would have pumped his EB damage sky high. :smallbiggrin:

If he reads this I may just end up throwing a dragon at him anyway...

Ferrin
2010-05-29, 07:02 PM
If he reads this I may just end up throwing a dragon at him anyway...

Depends on the age of he dragon, I'd also suggest paladin of freedom in the build above, and maybe two levels of rogue for the evasion. Oh, make him take the feat rogue ACF from UA, better then 1d6 SA for him. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: Oh, and I'm going to sleep now, good luck with finding a way so both of you can have fun. :smallwink:

Escheton
2010-05-29, 09:43 PM
And this is exactly why I consider eldritch glaive overpowered to the point of brokenness.
And I have learned as a dm that taking it easy on pc's that don't take it easy on their build tends to make it a cakewalk.
So don't be afraid to dent them a little, as soon as things get real bad start fudging or force them too retreat for a change.
Or kill them outright if their lvl is high enough to fix that and add a little extra loot so they can afford it.

Devils_Advocate
2010-05-29, 09:49 PM
Why even roll then, if he can never win because you cheat?
More broadly speaking: Why randomize events in the first place when you already know how you want them to go? In the scenario described, for example, Rin_Hunter had a fairly specific idea of how hard she wanted the fight to be for the PC, such that deviating from this too far in either direction would be dissatisfying. So why allow the dice to screw things up?

Well... because it's a game. Things are deliberately set up so that it's hard to do what you want, so that by overcoming this artificial challenge one may achieve a pleasing artificial sense of accomplishment. That is, by and large, how games work.


I love how you lot keep suggesting ways of killing him when I keep saying I wanted it to be difficult, not a player kill :smalltongue: You guys are like the little lawful evil outsiders on my shoulder shouting "Kill him!" and I'm finding it hard to resist~
I suppose that I would be remiss not to participate in this. :smallwink: Allow me to expound, therefore, upon the constraints relevant to such a task.

There is, of course, no meaningful challenge in destroying a player character by pitting him against an opponent that he could possibly defeat. That's little different from simply declaring "Rocks fall; everybody dies (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp05032002.shtml)". A devastating TPK is not only trivial to achieve but means the end of the campaign.

A good GM is ultimately not bound by any rule so tightly as by his own desire for fair play. The real challenge, for those with the right combination of dedication and sadism, is to devastate the party in a way that falls short of a TPK, such that the players feel grateful that any of their characters even survived. This task demands cunning, for to truly inspire such gratitude for the party's survival, the players must be made to feel that their misfortune was the result of their own ineptitude.

It's easy to get the players to say "There's no way we possibly could have survived that". But to get them to say, in retrospect, "Oh, man, we totally could have won that fight if we hadn't made that dumb mistake"... That is the Holy Grail.

To paraphrase AGC (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=49) a bit.

(And this is not inherently anti-player at all, as thwarting Lawful Evil GMs can be very, very rewarding. :smallamused:)

Runestar
2010-05-29, 10:07 PM
See my last post. There are a few ways I could have defeated him if I had used the Spell-Like Abilities and I did want him to win. Didn't think it would be that easy.

I think the point was - after missing with all your attacks, why didn't you fall back on a quickened chain lightning? If you had hit with some of attacks for decent damage, I can understanding not wanting to push the player over the brick, but you did no damage here!

I doubt 20d6 would have sufficed in TPK'ing the warlock, though it might have made his victory more gritty and "hard-earned", which was what you are aiming for, no?

But to be fair, the MM monsters were designed with core PCs (and apparently fairly unoptimized PCs at that) in mind. So I wouldn't be surprised that vs non-core PCs, they would be less effective in fighting them. I have always thought the titan was a tad on the weak side for its cr21 unless you are willing to go all out and not pull any punches (eg: maze the cleric, pelt the party with quickened, maximized chain lightnings every round etc). 370 hp isn't really a lot by today's standards.

arguskos
2010-05-29, 10:09 PM
More broadly speaking: Why randomize events in the first place when you already know how you want them to go? In the scenario described, for example, Rin_Hunter had a fairly specific idea of how hard she wanted the fight to be for the PC, such that deviating from this too far in either direction would be dissatisfying. So why allow the dice to screw things up?
You missed my point, I think. I was railing against the advice of "just cheat on the die rolls so the Titan wins", which is TERRIBLE advice. I made no judgments about Rin's methods, and frankly, have done the exact same thing multiple times (set up a challenging fight, rolled craptastically, it was ruined, many laughs were had by all, etcetcetc).

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-29, 10:51 PM
But to be fair, the MM monsters were designed with core PCs (and apparently fairly unoptimized PCs at that) in mind. So I wouldn't be surprised that vs non-core PCs, they would be less effective in fighting them. I have always thought the titan was a tad on the weak side for its cr21 unless you are willing to go all out and not pull any punches (eg: maze the cleric, pelt the party with quickened, maximized chain lightnings every round etc). 370 hp isn't really a lot by today's standards.

Also, the fact that it was a gestalt PC also tips the balance away from the monster's favor.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-29, 10:55 PM
The way I see it, the player made some solid investments into being able to do this kind of thing (Arcane Mastery, Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration is extremely heavy anti-SR investment), and luck was on his side that day. I don't see a problem, besides you should have maybe used an SLA or two.

20th level: It's rocket tag. Be thankful the Titan got a turn at all. Don't expect that to continue, Epic gets worse.

Godskook
2010-05-29, 11:11 PM
Let me get this straight:

1.He's a damage-oriented build
2.He's non-ranged
3.You didn't want to kill him

Given that, why the hell did you send something with "Stand still and kill" tactics at him? The HELL?!?!? In that situation, its either kill or be killed. Instead, drop to a dragon gestalted with DFA(primarily for the breath weapon with no recharge), and snag flyby attack. Increase movement into the stratosphere, and go to town with tailor-made damage to kill him in 3 rounds of max damage, or 5-6 with average(and roll it, don't maximize it). If he can beat that, great, but if he can't, there's easy ways to get out of dodge. Be sure to dip wizard for abrupt jaunt, too.

At high levels, the name of the game is about one of two battle styles:
-control and avoidance
-insta-kill

Since you're avoiding insta-kill, you should've used control and avoidance tactics.

OracleofWuffing
2010-05-29, 11:15 PM
One Eldritch Blast and 8 attacks with a weapon that hits touch AC. That's how to take down a Titan, apparently.

Really, that's all that needs to be said. Titans have a low touch AC and Warlocks' primary feature is all about hitting touch AC. On top of that, with the amount of luck you had, he didn't even really need the hexblade gestalt in this situation. I know you were going for an "epic challenge," but it was kind of designed to let him use his own abilities to the fullest advantage.

This is also why things that have spells/spell-likes should use them prior to getting into melee range. Yes, I know you didn't want to splatter him on the floor, but without using its abilities, you should adjust the Titan's CR down a little bit. The Titan was effectively fighting in an antimagic field that didn't apply to the Warlock. Look at it this way, an Elder Elemental could have at least "eaten" that Maximized Eldritch Glaive, giving you a second chance to full attack without squashing the guy like a bug.

...Okay, yeah, true, summoning something kind of goes against the spirit of solo challenges, but the experience/cr system kinda makes them both the same entity, so it's still a solo thing by word of the law. >_>

Runestar
2010-05-29, 11:57 PM
This is also why things that have spells/spell-likes should use them prior to getting into melee range.

Summoning an elemental is a round the titan is not doing anything, so I am not sure if that would help things. Its entry states it should not use gate offensively, while its listed tactics has it as melee first and SLAs second, so the OP did not exactly run him incorrectly in this aspect.

While I agree that it is tactically sound to first soften up the PCs with SLAs before wading into combat, I suspect this would then make the titan too similar to the pit fiend and balor (who already favour such tactics), so they probably decided to do the reverse for the titan.

That said, I am always looking for a chance to use the steal summoning invocation...:smallcool:

I am pretty sure a single-classed warlock would more or less have the same outcome, though for me, I would fly out of melee range and slowly plink away at the titan. Between quickened and maximize SLA, I am sure it would go down fast.

In hindsight, maybe the titan is more of a cr18-19?

Another_Poet
2010-05-30, 12:18 AM
Four 1s. Yup. This is the start of how stupid my luck is. As a player I'm horrible and die a fair amount because of my luck. I roll damage really well, but d20s hate me.

In general, as much as people hate to believe it, having "good luck" or "bad luck" with the dice is in your head. If you think you have bad luck you tend to remember the times when you rolled low, or when rolling low really hurt you, and forget the other times.

However, if you are really sure you roll more 1's than average, get a new d20. Tiny imperfections in the dice can cause some to roll differently than others and favour one or several numbers. Just buy a new die.

Hobs
2010-05-30, 12:36 AM
In general, as much as people hate to believe it, having "good luck" or "bad luck" with the dice is in your head. If you think you have bad luck you tend to remember the times when you rolled low, or when rolling low really hurt you, and forget the other times.

However, if you are really sure you roll more 1's than average, get a new d20. Tiny imperfections in the dice can cause some to roll differently than others and favour one or several numbers. Just buy a new die.

yeah, it is interesting to think of luck as a reflection of psychology. since mathematically we know that there's no such thing. so it tells us more about how people perceive the world and talk/think about it, then how lucky people are.

A lot of how luck gets perceived comes from normal exaggeration as people retell stories. like the game of telephone we play as kids. small details get modified with each retelling.

like the 4 1's, makes for a nice story, but sounds implausible. mathematically, the chance of that is 1 in 160000.
now that's possible, but I don't believe it.

i imagine, more likely it was 4 misses, maybe 3 1's and a 4th low roll, (that is much much more likely)

but it is systematic ways that we modify stories that turn into perceptions of luck.

Tavar
2010-05-30, 12:47 AM
Other things that can screw the image is what the rolls are for. Case in point, in a game I'm in currently, we had a long combat. I had the impression that I rolled low, but looking back, I rolled just a bit below average(10.37). The fact that several of my 20's and other high rolls were in skill checks, and the fact that several very important rolls were flubbed(natural 3 on a saving throw vs chained Blindness) had created this impression.

Ferrin
2010-05-30, 02:45 AM
Let me get this straight:

1.He's a damage-oriented build
2.He's non-ranged
3.You didn't want to kill him

Given that, why the hell did you send something with "Stand still and kill" tactics at him? The HELL?!?!? In that situation, its either kill or be killed. Instead, drop to a dragon gestalted with DFA(primarily for the breath weapon with no recharge), and snag flyby attack. Increase movement into the stratosphere, and go to town with tailor-made damage to kill him in 3 rounds of max damage, or 5-6 with average(and roll it, don't maximize it). If he can beat that, great, but if he can't, there's easy ways to get out of dodge. Be sure to dip wizard for abrupt jaunt, too.

At high levels, the name of the game is about one of two battle styles:
-control and avoidance
-insta-kill

Since you're avoiding insta-kill, you should've used control and avoidance tactics.

I suspect she didn't want to have a 99% chance of killing the player, more like 70%. Also, that warlock/hexblade? Not a damage oriented build, seriously. :smallbiggrin:

But I agree with you that some thought should have gone to considering the 'locks strengths and choosing a monster which isn't instagibbed by the warlock.

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-30, 05:16 AM
I'll say it again, if you want to challenge a PC whose primary strategy is hitting your touch AC for MASSIVE DAMAGE, either don't send a monster with horrible touch AC or give it some equipment to increase it to a decent level.

Seriously, the Titan's touch AC is a whopping 8. :smallsigh::smallsigh:

The Warlock has to roll a 1 to miss the damn thing. How is that supposed to be a challenge? :smallsigh:

Rin_Hunter
2010-05-30, 12:04 PM
Thanks for all your comments and the player loves the praise.

I will state that I did expect to down him with the full attack and not roll four 1s.

And I was informed later that he had bought a ring of nine lives... So yeah... That Titan didn't stand a chance.

For the record: He is very damage oriented compared to what the build would suggest. He's preparing for a dragon and has a scroll of haste and a scroll of surge of fortune. He can't win though and he's reading this over my shoulder so he's going to die. Horribly.

And he's killed himself more times than I'll ever kill him. It's a fact of the universe.

Bharg
2010-05-30, 12:23 PM
In general, as much as people hate to believe it, having "good luck" or "bad luck" with the dice is in your head. If you think you have bad luck you tend to remember the times when you rolled low, or when rolling low really hurt you, and forget the other times.

However, if you are really sure you roll more 1's than average, get a new d20. Tiny imperfections in the dice can cause some to roll differently than others and favour one or several numbers. Just buy a new die.

Yep, your dice must really suck.

If you want to make something challenging you have at least to try to kill your PCs or your players will get bored.

Another_Poet
2010-05-30, 03:25 PM
like the 4 1's, makes for a nice story, but sounds implausible. mathematically, the chance of that is 1 in 160000.
now that's possible, but I don't believe it.

It's only 1:160,000 if the die rolls right.

As mentioned, it could be off-weight slightly or otherwise favour 1's. I recommend the 1,000 rolls test if you are bored or just buying a new die if you have better things to do :)

Rin_Hunter
2010-05-30, 07:11 PM
The Titan needed to roll 2s to hit the player's AC, so I actually got four 1s.

And I like my dice... But they don't like me...

And the gaming shop I went to is closed down now anyway and I don't really want to be buying a few dice online.

Godskook
2010-05-30, 07:52 PM
I suspect she didn't want to have a 99% chance of killing the player, more like 70%. Also, that warlock/hexblade? Not a damage oriented build, seriously. :smallbiggrin:

And that's the beauty of control/avoidance. The odds of death is rather small compared to the odds of recognized defeat of the PC in a deathless match. Choosing such an option allows most 'smart' PCs to run away if the challenge proves too hard(I've spent 4 rounds whiffing against this thing and I'm in danger of dying next turn. Should I leave, or heal up and give it another go?).

It gives the player a lot of time to consider how dangerous the encounter is and how many resources he wants to spend on this fight. And if he concedes/runs/dies, that makes for a nigh-epic quest to find ways to defeat the foe that beat him.