A Thought About [B]SOD[/B] and Sorcerers

[CletusMusashi]

Logically, it would seem the beginning of SOD would take place during First Edition. But the existance of sorcerers as a distinct class would intially seem to make that questionable. However, something just recently clicked into place. Yes, sorcerers exist a century ago, but hardly anyone sems to actually know of them, so it's very possible that they simply aren't yet established as a player class but the ability itself, while rare, is/was present from the very start.

This would help explain why Xykon had never heard of sorcerers, although that question wasn't the real wall-banger for me. The part that just seemed baffling was that Eugene Greenhilt, an educated magical genius, had never heard of sorcerers. I think if they were in an addition where sorcery were better established that would have been impossible. But in First, it would be completely expected.

In other words, there are things that exist that did not happen to make it into the Player's Handbook right away, and I think Xykon is an example of one of them.

[Kroy]

The whole "The past is a past edition" thing got thrown out the window awhile ago. Think of it as 3.0.

[ref]

Was it now?

[The Pilgrim]

The Oracle has All the Answers.

In SOD, the oracle, master character at breaking the fourth wall, tells Eugene Greenhilt that they are in a narrated flashback of a prequel book. This is important.

So, the events shown in SOD may happen before the Comic in the linear timeline. But in the meta-chronology, they happen after the beggining of OOTS and thus after the upgrade to Third Edition. So the characters shown there, have thus third edition classes and abide by the rules of third edition, because the upgrade has already happened.

Therefore, since the events in SOD happen after the upgrade to third edition, Xykon still belongs to the third-edition generation of PC's (and Villiains). It doesn't matter he is a century-old lich, because he was created as a character after the upgrade to third edition. And, thus, he has a third edition character class.

Ian Starshine or Eugene Greenhilt, belong to the previous generation of PC's. They were created before the upgrade to third edition, and thus had first or second edition classes at their beggining. When the world upgraded, they upgraded like everybody else. And if they show up in a prequel book (that happens after the Comic in the meta, and thus after the Upgrade), they will thus be shown in their upgraded selves. They still remember that they once were a first and/or second edition characters, through, but they aren't anymore.

So, that should settle the question.

It's 6:00 AM in my place after a saturday night party. Got plastered and lacking sleep. So don't mind too much what I say.

[Coidzor]

In other words, there are things that exist that did not happen to make it into the Player's Handbook right away, and I think Xykon is an example of one of them.

This. This right here. Is over-thinking things. I lost count of how many metas are required here. Also, time travel. So, uh... I'm-a have to respectfully disagree with your hypothesis.

[Darklord Bright]

And why should it "Logically" have been first edition? The recent comics don't take place in fourth.

[The Pilgrim]

The whole "The past is a past edition" thing got thrown out the window awhile ago. Think of it as 3.0.

The existence of the Army of Outdated Monsters proves that the OOTS world was pre-third edition at some point in the past.

[Darklord Bright]

The existence of the Army of Outdated Monsters proves that the OOTS world was pre-third edition at some point in the past.

Logical flaw: does that mean all references (textual or visual) in the comic to real-life things causes those things to also exist?

[amuletts]

House rules.

[DaveMcW]

Time and D&D Edition are two separate dimensions.

[Procyonpi]

:elan:: Any point in time in the comic is in whatever edition Rich needs it to be for comedic or Narrative purposes. :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

There are only two explicit references in the comic to a change of edition happening within a human lifetime, AFAIK: the very first strip (upgrade from 3.0 to 3.5) and Haley mentioning that her father was a First Edition thief in strip #8. (The outdated monsters don't count because they could have been there for centuries). Both those references occur long before OotS had any semblance of a plot and therefore can't be relied upon to determine how the world developed.

(It would cause a few problems in any case--First Edition came out in, what, 1975? Ian Starshine must have been alive before then to have fathered a 20+ year old daughter...).

[The Pilgrim]

Logical flaw: does that mean all references (textual or visual) in the comic to real-life things causes those things to also exist?

Last time I checked, *I* did exist. :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Immediately after he got the Crimson Mantle, Redcloak demonstrated the granted power of the Destruction domain.
1ed/2ed player who never touched a 3.xed book: The what what?
Me: Domain. It's a 3ed thing, you wouldn't understand. Also, his brother was a rogue, who talked about using Sneak Attacks.
1ed/2ed player who never touched a 3.xed book: ...You mean a thief who backstabbed?
Me: ...No.

So, yes, Start of Darkness uses 3.xed rules. Xykon's sorcery is the most obvious example but far from the only one.

[CletusMusashi]

Not sure how anything I said would require time travel. As for the meta factor... we are discussing OOTS...

I'd thought about Redcloak already, but he's younger than Xykon, so being a newer edition still makes sense. Granted, that's not long after the Xykon/Fyron incident, but perhaps Second Edition only lasted a week before the gods had to upgrade due to Snarl leakage or something.

Since jokes are covered by the "rule of funny" alibi, I take the oracle's flashback reference as a comedic fourth-wall shaker and nothing more, otherwise it will make my head explode. This leaves us with
a. Xykon being older than Ian Starshine, in a world where we know that what edition they're in has changed aqt least once, and
b. Eugene Greenhilt, as a graduate of magical college, never even having heard of sorcerers.

I admit the first can probably be shrugged off. Kraagor, for example, is also older than Ian Starshine. And if Haley can climb into her character page, perhaps her father could climb from one edition into another, with equal plausibility... or hell, maybe he just liked to CALL himself a first-edition thief, or it was joke made by others, or it was something Haley thought of herself! The lost First-Edition monsters could have been summoned from one of the Planes of First Edition, for all I know. But, on the other hand, Kraagor may simply have been a fighter who came from one of the less civilized cultures. The word "barbarian" has been around far longer than any edition of Dungeons and Dragons.

I'm not married to the "Xykon was First Edition" hypothesis so much as I'm using it, for lack of anything else I've heard or come up with, to account for that second factor.

In a world where sorcerers are an established PC class, how does one account for them being that far off the radar? Eugene's "Duhhhh, what's a sorcerer?" moment during that fight scene just always bugs me on re-reading, because it seems so out of character for him to be completely unaware of something that should be that basic a part of the world of arcane spellcasting?

What other fanwanks have we got to explain why a smart, well-educated, and intellectually curious person like EG would have this gaping hole in his knowledge? "Rule of funny," doesn't seem to cover it, because it was there to serve as a springboard for a plot point, not a punchline.

[Kondziu]

I've just noticed something, while rereading the comic n-th time, namely: the "father was a 1st edition thief" isn't just one-time joke. The dirt farmer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0222.html) seems to be a "previous-edition" NPC as well.

[CletusMusashi]

Oh, true, I'd forgotten about that.
Also, I didn't realize this at first, because I never played or studied Second Edition, but I just ran a Wiki check that says sorcerers originated in 3rd. If that's true, then Xykon the human could have lived mostly during 2nd.
I wonder if the updates are universal, or if sometimes there are little bubbles that take longer to change.

[Shpadoinkle]

I've just noticed something, while rereading the comic n-th time, namely: the "father was a 1st edition thief" isn't just one-time joke. The dirt farmer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0222.html) seems to be a "previous-edition" NPC as well.

He was created as such, but like everyone else he was updated to the 3.5 rules.

[Kondziu]

Also, I didn't realize this at first, because I never played or studied Second Edition, but I just ran a Wiki check that says sorcerers originated in 3rd.
Huh... I wonder where did Baldur's Gate 2 get sorcerers from...? :smallconfused:

[CletusMusashi]

OK, so Wiki's wrong then. That's what I get for running a quickie cheat-check.

[Kish]

The wiki's right. Baldur's Gate 2 was mostly 2ed but imported, with minor changes, the sorcerer, monk, and barbarian classes from the then-new 3.0ed.


What other fanwanks have we got to explain why a smart, well-educated, and intellectually curious person like EG would have this gaping hole in his knowledge?

I think you're giving him too much credit for intellectual curiosity. His teacher, his surrogate father, explained sorcerers as a kind of pitiful wizard wannabe. His teaching gave sorcerers the same kind of short shrift that Eugene gave the rules of Roy's ball game.

[Procyonpi]

Not sure how anything I said would require time travel. As for the meta factor... we are discussing OOTS...

I'd thought about Redcloak already, but he's younger than Xykon, so being a newer edition still makes sense. Granted, that's not long after the Xykon/Fyron incident, but perhaps Second Edition only lasted a week before the gods had to upgrade due to Snarl leakage or something.

Since jokes are covered by the "rule of funny" alibi, I take the oracle's flashback reference as a comedic fourth-wall shaker and nothing more, otherwise it will make my head explode. This leaves us with
a. Xykon being older than Ian Starshine, in a world where we know that what edition they're in has changed aqt least once, and
b. Eugene Greenhilt, as a graduate of magical college, never even having heard of sorcerers.

I admit the first can probably be shrugged off. Kraagor, for example, is also older than Ian Starshine. And if Haley can climb into her character page, perhaps her father could climb from one edition into another, with equal plausibility... or hell, maybe he just liked to CALL himself a first-edition thief, or it was joke made by others, or it was something Haley thought of herself! The lost First-Edition monsters could have been summoned from one of the Planes of First Edition, for all I know. But, on the other hand, Kraagor may simply have been a fighter who came from one of the less civilized cultures. The word "barbarian" has been around far longer than any edition of Dungeons and Dragons.

I'm not married to the "Xykon was First Edition" hypothesis so much as I'm using it, for lack of anything else I've heard or come up with, to account for that second factor.

In a world where sorcerers are an established PC class, how does one account for them being that far off the radar? Eugene's "Duhhhh, what's a sorcerer?" moment during that fight scene just always bugs me on re-reading, because it seems so out of character for him to be completely unaware of something that should be that basic a part of the world of arcane spellcasting?

What other fanwanks have we got to explain why a smart, well-educated, and intellectually curious person like EG would have this gaping hole in his knowledge? "Rule of funny," doesn't seem to cover it, because it was there to serve as a springboard for a plot point, not a punchline.

Eugene Greenhilt not having heard of sorcerers was a set-up to continue the whole on-going joke about wizards who think that they're infinitely superior to Sorcerers. (this, of course, a joke on rule-crunching wizard players who feel that since they can learn every spell in the game, they are of course better than Sorcerers in every respect. While often true, rich pokes holes in this idea with final duel, in which Xykons addition spell slots trump Dorukan's variety.*)

Also I'm pretty sure Kraagor is specifically mentioned as raging on page 43 of SoD.

Basically, in Rich's comic time moves at the speed of plot, and therefore history doen't have to be consistent.

*One of my favorite things about the comic is actually the ways in which Rich pokes fun at common notions of certain class's ultimate power among some players. I loved the way he shredded the "spellcasters are dominant in any scenario" stick with the ABD using the anti-magic field. But I digress.

[Nimrod's Son]

There are only two explicit references in the comic to a change of edition happening within a human lifetime, AFAIK: the very first strip (upgrade from 3.0 to 3.5) and Haley mentioning that her father was a First Edition thief in strip #8.
There are later references. As mentioned, there's the dirt farmer, and also this exchange from OtOoPCs:

:roy:: OK, I say we just charge in from 40 feet away.
:durkon:: I've only got normal-sized legs, not yer giant strides. In armor, I can only charge 30 feet.
:roy:: I thought dwarves didn't suffer a movement reduction in heavy armor.
:durkon:: This be a prequel, you fool! We're still under 3.0 rules!
:roy:: Oh, right.

[lothos]

Some of the characters are aware of 1st edition though, even if they are not part of it. In Strip 516 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), Tsukiko made a reference to the fact that in 1st edition AD&D, an evil cleric could turn a paladin in the manner that a good cleric turns undead. In no way does that suggest that she was ever a 1st edition character, but she has some kind of knowledge of 1st edition.

I know........ probably just rule of funny setting up joke about "another kind of turning", which I did enjoy a lot.

[pinwiz]

(The outdated monsters don't count because they could have been there for centuries).

Do you mean the monsters could have existed for centuries? Because Dorukan both made the talisman and the castle that they were found in, making it so that the monsters were around in the castle for more like 50 years.

[AstralFire]

I don't see any attempt to explain editions in-universe as working out well. The Pilgrim's explanation alone makes Comic Book Alternate Dimensions seem very logical and comprehensible.

[KoboldRevenge]

I think that since it's ootsiverse that the rules bend how ever Rich wants them