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Albonor
2010-05-29, 10:07 PM
One of the often disregarded ability of casters is to research new spells. They can produce new enchantments and whatnot that would fit a situation, be the final product of a good idea or simply fit their concept.

It is all good so far but then you sometimes look at certain officialy published content from WOTC and ask yourself: would this have been approved if simply presented by a player? I don't mean a player coming to the table wih a new book, I mean with a few lines of text of a printed sheet of paper.

Some of these would never have passed a reasonable DM, even not always because of brokeness but mostly because of actual concept or flavour.

My "favorite"? The orb spells.

Player: I know I am a conjurer but I had this idea: Summoning a mass of acid or fire or very cold air and throwing it at my enemies! It is not evocation if it comes from somewhere no?

DM: I can see the acid, you remember acid arrow? But fire? You summon Fire? How does that even work? And COLD AIR? Seriously? What, you want to summon sound next? Force?


What are yours?

gallagher
2010-05-29, 10:14 PM
i honestly dont know whose idea it was to allow shivering touch, but MY GOD they should have rethought that one. it hits on Touch, does 2d6 dex, and can easily take down a dragon? seriously, shooting off two of these, along with a maximized or enlarged version of it, will render almost any creature immobile

DragoonWraith
2010-05-29, 10:17 PM
Candle of Invocation.

Seriously.

Mongoose87
2010-05-29, 10:21 PM
Candle of Invocation.

Seriously.

Goodnight, everybody!

Lysander
2010-05-29, 10:28 PM
Mindrape (better dominate person with limitless duration? no way)
Wish (too vague)
Teleport (ruins the travel part of the adventure story)
Wall of force (nothing should be invincible)

Private-Prinny
2010-05-29, 10:32 PM
Candle of Invocation.

*is unfamiliar with many magic items*

*looks up Candle of Invocation*

Oh... Oh god... Who would ever let something like that happen?

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-05-29, 10:44 PM
Shapechange:
Player-"I want to be able to turn into anything I want every round, heal every time, and get all of said things abilities when I do it. . . "
Dm-hahahahahaha no. -_-

Divine metamagic: (they errated it later but its still pretty bad)
Player- i want to be able to use my turn undead attempts to use metamagic instead. . .
Dm- I'm listening? what will your limitations be?
Player-Limitations?
Dm- hahahaha no -_-

DragoonWraith
2010-05-29, 10:53 PM
I could see both of those things getting by a DM who didn't know better. Shapechange is a 9th level spell and without thorough knowledge of the kinds of things it would give you access to (which the DM wouldn't have because Shapechange wouldn't exist), a lot of DMs might let it go. Same thing with Gate, which is why I didn't say Gate.

As for Divine Metamagic, outside of Persist Spell and without ways of getting large numbers of Turn attempts, it's not that powerful. A smart DM might ban it just because metamagic-reducers are a tried and true way to game breakage, but if they didn't know that, DMM might not look that bad. Hell, it might not be that bad - you don't really get to use it that many times. Two free Quicken'd spells a day? Eh, worth a feat without a doubt, but it's not the game breaker than a Persist'd spell or two is.

Muggins
2010-05-29, 11:03 PM
Wish
DM: So you're saying to can wish for anything in my game permanently?
Player: Yes.
DM: With no penalties?
Player: Yes.
DM: ..How about no.

Psylons
DM: You're asking if you can kill things ... with your mind?
Player: Why not?
DM: ..No.

Shifter
DM: You want the ability to shift into anything you can possibly imagine?
Player: Yes.
DM: Get out.

Sphere of Ultimate Destruction
Player: So, my guy made this spell and it obliterates everything around him.
DM: Serious?

Timestop
DM: A spell that stops time for everyone buy yourself?
Player: Yeah. Where's the problem?
DM: ...

Shout
DM: A spell that kills people if you shout loud enough?
Player: Mhmm.
DM: *Facepalm.*

Mongoose87
2010-05-29, 11:09 PM
Wish
DM: So you're saying to can wish for anything in my game permanently?
Player: Yes.
DM: With no penalties?
Player: Yes.
DM: ..How about no.

Psylons
DM: You're asking if you can kill things ... with your mind?
Player: Why not?
DM: ..No.

Shifter
DM: You want the ability to shift into anything you can possibly imagine?
Player: Yes.
DM: Get out.

Sphere of Ultimate Destruction
Player: So, my guy made this spell and it obliterates everything around him.
DM: Serious?

Timestop
DM: A spell that stops time for everyone buy yourself?
Player: Yeah. Where's the problem?
DM: ...

Shout
DM: A spell that kills people if you shout loud enough?
Player: Mhmm.
DM: *Facepalm.*

Well, Wish used to be the DM's chance to find a creative way to mess with his players. Also, aren't Sylons robots?

Pluto
2010-05-29, 11:12 PM
Psylons
DM: You're asking if you can kill things ... with your mind?
Player: Why not?
DM: ..No
Frak, Muggins. Who let those into the game?

Hendel
2010-05-29, 11:16 PM
Wish
DM: So you're saying to can wish for anything in my game permanently?
Player: Yes.
DM: With no penalties?
Player: Yes.
DM: ..How about no.

I think there are enough restrictions on Wish as it is currently worded that I might give it the time of day as a DM. 5000 XP is a lot and it can't do just anything. Plus it is fun to grant the wishes by the letter of the law or the exact wording of the Wish.

Some spells and/or feats that I would find suspect are

Arcane Thesis (PHB 2) - IF you allow it as written where it deducts one point from ALL metamagics applied and not just from one of any metamagic feats applied. Coupled with Improved Metamagic at Epic levels and you have some nasty spells for very little to no level slot upcharge.

Close Quarters Fighting (CW) - You mean you want to take an attack of opportunity even if I have feats that prevent you from doing so and then add any damage done to your grapple check?? Sorry, no!

Wings of Flurry (RoD) - You want a spell that will damage all the foes that you target in a 30 ft radius from you, avoid your allies, and have no damage cap on the number of dice of damage that you can do (ie 20th level Sorcerer can do 20d6)?? Again, sorry, but no!

Faleldir
2010-05-29, 11:21 PM
Psylons
DM: You're asking if you can kill things ... with your mind?
Player: Why not?
DM: ..No.

I assume you mean Psion, which is much weaker than a Wizard.



Shifter
DM: You want the ability to shift into anything you can possibly imagine?
Player: Yes.
DM: Get out.

What, the catgirl race from Eberron? They can't do that.



Shout
DM: A spell that kills people if you shout loud enough?
Player: Mhmm.
DM: *Facepalm.*

It's only 5d6 damage.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-29, 11:22 PM
Power Word: Pain, comes to mind.

Also, the 3.0 version of Haste.

Pluto
2010-05-29, 11:35 PM
Actually, most of these I understand. They either portray common fictional tropes (Wish, Shapechange, Polymorph, Teleport) or do something completely reasonable and conceptually compelling within the game (Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Psions, Shout).

Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic, Orbs, Epic Spellcasting, Item Familiar don't make sense to me.

The Willing Deformity feats baffle me. Both because they seem more the role of grafts and because feats aren't usually related to actual events, feats or accomplishments of characters themselves. (Likewise, Lich-loved, Faerie Mysteries Initiate and Nymph's Kiss seem to be strangely plot-related compared to Skill Focus, Extend Spell, Improved Initiative or Power Attack.)


Thunderlance is probably the inversion of this. I understand why it would be allowed in a game, but I can't for the life of me understand why it was printed. Conceptually, a 20ft long lightsaber that dispels force effects doesn't really seem coherent.

Tavar
2010-05-29, 11:49 PM
Umm...isn't Sphere of Ultimate destruction simply a disintegrate that can hit over multiple turns? Seems perfectly in line for a 9th level spell.

Doc Roc
2010-05-29, 11:55 PM
The orb spells are actually an important part of the larger ecology of D&D. You can ban them, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it. They merely make blasters playable, instead of trash-fish.

My vote goes to sanctum spell, which made it through two editions as one of the worst feats ever printed.

Coidzor
2010-05-30, 12:03 AM
Shifter
DM: You want the ability to shift into anything you can possibly imagine?
Player: Yes.
DM: Get out.

Shifters are incredibly gimped and can't even make it into a fully furry form, being more like... half-furries when shifted.

Now, them turning into half-furries, I can see that getting a DM to ban or facepalm depending upon the DM's patience.

lsfreak
2010-05-30, 12:09 AM
The orb spells are actually an important part of the larger ecology of D&D. You can ban them, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it. They merely make blasters playable, instead of trash-fish.

I'd find them much more acceptable if they were in Evocation. Can you imagine a player trying to explain their way around an Instantaneous (and therefore permanent) Orb of Fire?

Spellcasters would get this for me, as presented in 3.5. "So you can do magic, no time spent researching new spells, almost no gold spent, no quests needed to get obscure spells, zero risks of spells going awry, never get mental or physical fatigue from overexerting yourself, and almost no way of anyone countering it before it goes off? Hahahaha."

Hendel
2010-05-30, 12:12 AM
I'd find them much more acceptable if they were in Evocation. Can you imagine a player trying to explain their way around an Instantaneous (and therefore permanent) Orb of Fire?

Spellcasters would get this for me, as presented in 3.5. "So you can do magic, no time spent researching new spells, almost no gold spent, no quests needed to get obscure spells, zero risks of spells going awry, never get mental or physical fatigue from overexerting yourself, and almost no way of anyone countering it before it goes off? Hahahaha."

Plus that gets around the most insane aspect of the orbs spells. That is since they are instantaneous conjurations, once conjured, they are not magical and can then be tossed inside an Anti-Magic Field.

So an Orb of Force can take down both a Golem (no SR) and a mage inside an Anti-Magic Field, sign me up!!

DragoonWraith
2010-05-30, 12:19 AM
...there are so many things in here that are just wrong. Things that are not that powerful, things that don't actually work that way... Jeez.

Hida Reju
2010-05-30, 12:28 AM
Shock Trooper - ok I can tank AC (Which many believe is useless at high lvl anyway) to max my power attack out for super charging.

Divine metamagic - putting the G.O.D mode into cleric spell casting. Nightsticks made this even worse.

Hendel
2010-05-30, 12:30 AM
...there are so many things in here that are just wrong. Things that are not that powerful, things that don't actually work that way... Jeez.

Anything in particular?

Wonton
2010-05-30, 12:31 AM
i honestly dont know whose idea it was to allow shivering touch, but MY GOD they should have rethought that one. it hits on Touch, does 2d6 dex, and can easily take down a dragon? seriously, shooting off two of these, along with a maximized or enlarged version of it, will render almost any creature immobile

Look it up again. It does 3d6. I'm not making this **** up. :smallannoyed:

I totally agree with the Orbs. "I didn't evoke this orb of pure magical force, I, uh, conjured it... from Forceland." "Forceland?" "Yeah, you know... Forceland, in the Plane of Force."

Also, what's a Candle of Invoc--- OH MY GOD THE HORROR! By the given wording, you could even STACK them!

Hobs
2010-05-30, 12:43 AM
Plus that gets around the most insane aspect of the orbs spells. That is since they are instantaneous conjurations, once conjured, they are not magical and can then be tossed inside an Anti-Magic Field.

So an Orb of Force can take down both a Golem (no SR) and a mage inside an Anti-Magic Field, sign me up!!

yeah, that was always the most ridiculous part of the orbs for me.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-30, 12:47 AM
Anything in particular?
Several things, but I don't care for the argument, so I'm not going to point them out. Most of the things I see as out-right wrong have been already commented on, though.

Caphi
2010-05-30, 12:50 AM
Also, what's a Candle of Invoc--- OH MY GOD THE HORROR! By the given wording, you could even STACK them!

Would you believe that's not the insane part?

This thread was pretty much over at candle of invocation.

AslanCross
2010-05-30, 12:54 AM
Psylons
DM: You're asking if you can kill things ... with your mind?
Player: Why not?
DM: ..No.

If you mean Psions, the Wizard can do that too, except much better. Psions lack the versatility and sheer brokenness that Wizards have.



Shifter
DM: You want the ability to shift into anything you can possibly imagine?
Player: Yes.
DM: Get out.

I think you mean shapechange. I don't think you mean shifters:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/roe_gallery/88207.jpg
Apart from having women who look like Mel Gibson...
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/pgte_gallery/95051.jpg
...there's pretty much no real reason to ban them for balance reasons.


Sphere of Ultimate Destruction
Player: So, my guy made this spell and it obliterates everything around him.
DM: Serious?

At that point, a lot of stuff can make the Fort saves necessary. Disintegrate is hard enough to pull off on its own.

Tavar
2010-05-30, 01:21 AM
The Taint mage, or whatever that PrC that makes your casting stat based off Taint surly counts.

Thiyr
2010-05-30, 01:37 AM
To be honest, Assay SR would be one IMO. I cast a spell that allows my spells to affect things that are resistant to spells better. I use magic to defeat something good against magic. The orbs, on the other hand, make sense overall for me. orb of force less so, but I'd clock the difference as "I create a real fire by using magical energy to summon it, and then physically moving it elsewhere" versus "I use magic to make a nigh-identical fascimilie of fire out of magical energy". The difference is a fine point when it comes to what the spells do (fake or not, that fire hurts), but when it comes to things resisting the magical energy, there's no more of it left in the real stuff, while the fake stuff needs the energy to keep its form.

as for 9th level spells, I just lump those together into the "They're 9th level spells. What is this 'needing approval' bit, the game's already broken in half, being short bits away from epic and all".

Power word: pain, though, definitely fits. "a first level spell that does more damage the less HP the target has, has no save, and will kill things by itself even a few levels after you get it, given time?" Granted, all it does is give the target a maximum fight duration before getting back to a good healing source, but still, bit much.

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 01:40 AM
Personally, I'd never let Necrotic Termination slide. A tumor that eats your soul? No. Just forget it.

Saintheart
2010-05-30, 01:49 AM
Although it's not for PCs as such, Metabreath feats as follows...

Player: So anyway, I'd like my pet dragon to have some feats for his breath. Makes him kinda more effective. Y'know, make his breath more powerful, extend his range, make it sticky, that kind of
DM: ... Well, they are some of the most powerful creatures in the game, but anyway, what limitations did you have in mind?
Player: Okay, so, I came up with a good idea: for every metabreath feat you put on your breath, you add a certain number of rounds before he can breathe again.
DM: Huh. Sounds good. [shuffles through player's proposals for feats] Wait a second - some of these feats explicitly say they don't stack with themselves, but others are silent on it. Did you miss that part out?
Player: No, no, check my general rules of use section. If it doesn't explicitly say it doesn't stack, it does.
DM: ... So you're telling me that a piddling tiny dragon with about 2d6 damage on his breath could take a few of these feats and turn his 2d6 damage breath into a nuclear explosion of fire that levels cities from 6,000 miles away ... and the only restriction on it is that he can't use his breath again for, oh, four minutes or so?
Player: Yeah! Cool, huh?
DM: ... so anyway, how 'bout them Raiders, huh?

Myou
2010-05-30, 03:56 AM
The orb spells are actually an important part of the larger ecology of D&D. You can ban them, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it. They merely make blasters playable, instead of trash-fish.

My vote goes to sanctum spell, which made it through two editions as one of the worst feats ever printed.

Seconded on both counts!

AslanCross
2010-05-30, 04:00 AM
The Taint mage, or whatever that PrC that makes your casting stat based off Taint surly counts.

Tainted Scholar. It's horribly broken.

nedz
2010-05-30, 04:18 AM
The ones I found annoying are much more trivial. Spells where you can share the duration. I'm thinking Water Breathing and Water Walking. These turn enviromental challanges into meer scenery, and at 5th level.

Ashram
2010-05-30, 04:22 AM
A lot of people don't remember that while Shivering Touch's 3d6 Dexterity damage is a ton, ability damage doesn't go below 1. You could, at most, give a dragon a -5 AC penalty. Which I suppose would be enough to mess up a dragon hardcore.

The Orb spells are conjuration because technically, you're not "evoking" fire or cold or lightning, you're conjuring them into a little ball of energy first, and then chucking it at someone. The acid and sound orbs being conjuration makes sense, because you have to conjure those effects, but fire, cold, lightning and force should be evocation.

My DM hates Easy Metamagic with a passion. Mainly because it's from Dragon Magazine.

My choice is quite easily Spell Compendium's Combust. 2nd level wizard spell, 10d8 max damage. Combinable with Spectral Hand for long distance explosions, along with Energy Substitutions for all sorts of elemental shenanigans.

Claudius Maximus
2010-05-30, 04:24 AM
A lot of people don't remember that while Shivering Touch's 3d6 Dexterity damage is a ton, ability damage doesn't go below 1. You could, at most, give a dragon a -5 AC penalty. Which I suppose would be enough to mess up a dragon hardcore.

No. Ability damage can reduce to zero, which results in paralysis in the case of dexterity. You're thinking of ability penalties, like those given by such spells as Ray of Enfeeblement.

Doglord
2010-05-30, 04:26 AM
A class here: Warmage.
It's got the same spellcasting as a sorceror and also armour and such. They 'drawback' is less choice of spells. But they're all sorceror spells, so a warmage is an evoking sorceror, but BETTER. Woo, that's some balance.

Ashram
2010-05-30, 04:28 AM
No. Ability damage can reduce to zero, which results in paralysis in the case of dexterity. You're thinking of ability penalties, like those given by such spells as Ray of Enfeeblement.

Hmm, maybe I'm thinking of Pathfinder rules again...

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-05-30, 04:33 AM
A class here: Warmage.
It's got the same spellcasting as a sorceror and also armour and such. They 'drawback' is less choice of spells. But they're all sorceror spells, so a warmage is an evoking sorceror, but BETTER. Woo, that's some balance.But the warmage can't take any of the ridiculous spells previously mentioned, except orbs, which are merely in the wrong school.

Yora
2010-05-30, 05:54 AM
I join in with the Orb crowd.

Whoever wrote them chose to just ignore a number of basic rules how magic works in D&D, apparently only because these limitations were limitations and he thought it would be cool to not be limited by them.
That's just cheating.

Ecalsneerg
2010-05-30, 05:55 AM
Isn't Shifter the 3.0 Master of Many Forms?

weenie
2010-05-30, 06:19 AM
A class here: Warmage.
It's got the same spellcasting as a sorceror and also armour and such. They 'drawback' is less choice of spells. But they're all sorceror spells, so a warmage is an evoking sorceror, but BETTER. Woo, that's some balance.

It is commonly agreed, that warmages are way weaker than sorcerers. The spells known limitation hurts a lot, even if you're going for a mainly blasty build.

Amphetryon
2010-05-30, 06:38 AM
It is commonly agreed, that warmages are way weaker than sorcerers. The spells known limitation hurts a lot, even if you're going for a mainly blasty build.

Especially since blasting is generally seen as a weaker option for arcane types. Dread Necromancer and Beguiler are built along similar veins, and most still call a Sorcerer better than either, except in corner cases.

mostlyharmful
2010-05-30, 06:43 AM
1. The whole poly line, from 3rd level you can fly for 10mins/level? From 15th you can permenantly upscale your Int and forget your previous forms limitations, from 17th you can do just about anything at a moments notice... and mage's get knowledge to iron out the ''must be familiar'' thing.
2. Control Wind... wooooo-ee that thing's broken, a mid level druid wanders into downtown Settingsville on a blustery day and six seconds later you're scraping plot off the scenary as a tornado or three tears apart your carefully constructed world
3. Mindblank, Deathward, Freedom of Movement, Trueseeing and any other blanket protection/over-ride spells... totally blows through half the schools in the game and makes speciallization much more attractive when you can whip out protection from X and dump Enchantment as a result etc.
4. Fabricate. Just flat NO> anything that can be used to flatten the economy, WBL and any other none combat related challenge is sucky design.
5. Celerity. There's just so much tactical challenge you can mount against a guy who can tell time to sit down and shut up. And daze can be gotten around.

Boci
2010-05-30, 07:19 AM
Wings of cover?

Muggins
2010-05-30, 07:25 AM
Isn't Shifter the 3.0 Master of Many Forms?

Pretty sure it's a class, but from what the people here have been saying it seems to be a race too.

Vizzerdrix
2010-05-30, 07:47 AM
Arcane Strike. A feat that lets me turn any useless/unneeded slots for the day into raw damage and bonus to hit? Oh, and the damage will stack with itself if you use more than one slot up at a time? yeaaaaahno.


Abjurant Champion is just as bad.

weenie
2010-05-30, 08:08 AM
Arcane Strike. A feat that lets me turn any useless/unneeded slots for the day into raw damage and bonus to hit? Oh, and the damage will stack with itself if you use more than one slot up at a time? yeaaaaahno.


Abjurant Champion is just as bad.

Well, Arcane Strike really is OP because of the stacking thing, but Abjurant champion isn't all that bad.. It's a solid PrC for gishes, but since gishes aren't as strong as full casters, I really don't see the need to outright ban it.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-30, 08:21 AM
Wait, you can stack Arcane Strike? I never knew that.

Boci
2010-05-30, 08:22 AM
Wait, you can stack Arcane Strike? I never knew that.

Not the to hit bonus, but the damage, since untyped damage always stacks.

weenie
2010-05-30, 08:26 AM
Not the to hit bonus, but the damage, since untyped damage always stacks.

What he said.

I built a Duskblade around this loophole once. Free quickened true strikes + tons of damage = one very angry DM :)

Vizzerdrix
2010-05-30, 08:29 AM
What he said.

I built a Duskblade around this loophole once. Free quickened true strikes + tons of damage = one very angry DM :)

Yeah. I sort of did that by accident. waltzed up to the BBEG, right past the troll minions and wraithstriked it right between the eyes for everything I had.


I wasn't invited back to that group, but at least I learned from it.

peacenlove
2010-05-30, 08:38 AM
Leadership and its sister feats (Dragon cohort, Undead Leadership). Because one unbalanced character isn't enough.
Polymorph any Object / Simulacrum / Shadow Conjuration : Creating something for nothing permanently? no thanks.

elonin
2010-05-30, 09:05 AM
Assay resistance isn't so bad. Giving +10 to a sr level check is reasonable for a fourth level spell. I'd mark the orb spells as being worse.

Player: I want to create an item that stores my memories, experience, and spells allowing me to craft items or even die for little cost.

DM: are there any costs to use this?

Player: 500xp

DM: (throws book at player)

Killer Angel
2010-05-30, 09:08 AM
Candle of Invocation.


This, presuming that you previously allowed Gate... :smallwink:

Amphetryon
2010-05-30, 09:09 AM
Unless my Spot check was bad, nobody has yet mentioned Item Familiars. :smallyuk:

Sliver
2010-05-30, 09:10 AM
Unless my Spot check was bad, nobody has yet mentioned Item Familiars. :smallyuk:

I think this one goes mostly without mentioning... But already was mentioned.


Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic, Orbs, Epic Spellcasting, Item Familiar don't make sense to me.

Escheton
2010-05-30, 09:23 AM
Fabricate isnt so bad if you are far away from town and need some quick poison. Or are stuck in a teleportation barred dungeon and the fighter needs a new sword.

Orbs suck to high heavens. But they can be "winged" so that balances it right?

Landlord can get annoying if more players take it building a batcave, a dojo stuffed with training dummys and the worlds most trapped summon and teleport redirect killer

DragoonWraith
2010-05-30, 09:29 AM
Actually, the full-list casters (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage) would all be pretty dubious coming from a player: you chose those spells yourself, after all, rather than being required to use the list in the book. Since the raw number of spells they have is greater than a Sorcerer, and they have plenty of extra features on top of it, I'd be pretty surprised if a DM allowed them in a game.

Which is a shame, because they are oodles more balanced than any other casters in the game.

Killer Angel
2010-05-30, 09:56 AM
Player: I've got this wonderful feat, which is called "leadership"...
DM: :smallsigh:

Flickerdart
2010-05-30, 10:23 AM
Player: Hey, I've got this wonderful Idea for a feat!
DM: ...I'm listening.
Player: Well, you know how my Rogue has no HP to speak of and keeps dying?
DM: Yes, your Rogue does suck. Might I suggest something that gives more AC or conceal-
Player: Yeah, no, I want hitpoints! How about...three!
DM: Three hitpoints?
Player: Yeah! That's worth a feat, right?

Evard
2010-05-30, 10:41 AM
I think there are enough restrictions on Wish as it is currently worded that I might give it the time of day as a DM. 5000 XP is a lot and it can't do just anything. Plus it is fun to grant the wishes by the letter of the law or the exact wording of the Wish.

Some spells and/or feats that I would find suspect are

Arcane Thesis (PHB 2) - IF you allow it as written where it deducts one point from ALL metamagics applied and not just from one of any metamagic feats applied. Coupled with Improved Metamagic at Epic levels and you have some nasty spells for very little to no level slot upcharge.

Close Quarters Fighting (CW) - You mean you want to take an attack of opportunity even if I have feats that prevent you from doing so and then add any damage done to your grapple check?? Sorry, no!

Wings of Flurry (RoD) - You want a spell that will damage all the foes that you target in a 30 ft radius from you, avoid your allies, and have no damage cap on the number of dice of damage that you can do (ie 20th level Sorcerer can do 20d6)?? Again, sorry, but no!

I DM'ed a game with a law student as a wizard .... wish was fun with him cause his wish would be a contract haha.. Part of the fun was finding a loophole in his wish (it got to the point where other players joined in on finding loopholes haha)

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-05-30, 12:30 PM
Player: Hey, I've got this wonderful Idea for a feat!
DM: ...I'm listening.
Player: Well, you know how my Rogue has no HP to speak of and keeps dying?
DM: Yes, your Rogue does suck. Might I suggest something that gives more AC or conceal-
Player: Yeah, no, I want hitpoints! How about...three!
DM: Three hitpoints?
Player: Yeah! That's worth a feat, right?

I would laugh then say, sure go for it, if players want to be stupid I let them. they learn eventually. I usualy combine the 2 toughness feats so it sucks less for people who need it for entry to stuff.

this does bring up a good point. enough of the broken powerfull stuff. . . what about the broken weak stuff. . .

i present to you Healer. . . personally i love this class but only because i played it as a personal exersice in how to make a BAD class work. . . through careful optomization (and abuse of several features to expand the spell list) I got it up as high as around tier 3, low teir 2.

lesser_minion
2010-05-30, 12:48 PM
Player: Hey, I've got this wonderful Idea for a feat!
DM: ...I'm listening.
Player: Well, you know how my Rogue has no HP to speak of and keeps dying?
DM: Yes, your Rogue does suck. Might I suggest something that gives more AC or conceal-
Player: Yeah, no, I want hitpoints! How about...three!
DM: Three hitpoints?
Player: Yeah! That's worth a feat, right?

Meh... toughness was intended (as explained by the designers) to only ever be used in one-shot games at low level.

There it actually makes some sense, since you might only have six hitpoints to start with.

In reality, it's just another example of how completely and utterly retarded WotC's "ivory tower design" principle actually is.

Heliomance
2010-05-30, 12:56 PM
Meh... toughness was intended (as explained by the designers) to only ever be used in one-shot games at low level.

There it actually makes some sense, since you might only have six hitpoints to start with.

In reality, it's just another example of how completely and utterly retarded WotC's "ivory tower design" principle actually is.

Which is why the Tarrasque has it six times.

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 01:06 PM
Which is why the Tarrasque has it six times.

Well, if they chose actually useful feats, it would kick your ass even more than usual. There's such a thing a too much of a good thing.

Brendan
2010-05-30, 01:06 PM
player: ooh. I had this idea for a class. can I clear it with you?
dm: sure. what do you want?
player: so, remember how I lost like twelve hit points last session from a falling trap?
dm: yeah, why?
player: I was thinking of making a class where about a third of it's class features protect me from falling. oh, and I know that sounds overpowered, but it only works when I can touch a wall and they don't stack.
dm: ookay... what else does it get?
player: I can punch things.
dm: cool. what else?
player: I can punch things. and run. fast. but only one at once.
dm: huh.

Lapak
2010-05-30, 01:08 PM
Player: I've got this wonderful feat, which is called "leadership"...
DM: :smallsigh:Leadership is one of those things where you can see the design intent so clearly, but the execution misses the mark. It's the equivalent of the way high-level characters in 1/2e automatically attracted followers when they built a stronghold: it's meant to let you staff your HQ with a couple of dozen lackeys, a few middle-management classes, and a trusted lieutenant so you can be a landholder/guildmaster/school-founder AND go adventuring.

Since there's no restriction to prevent you from just playing two characters and toting around the rest at loot-carriers and out of combat support, well, suffice to say that's why it failed as a feat.

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 01:11 PM
Leadership is one of those things where you can see the design intent so clearly, but the execution misses the mark. It's the equivalent of the way high-level characters in 1/2e automatically attracted followers when they built a stronghold: it's meant to let you staff your HQ with a couple of dozen lackeys, a few middle-management classes, and a trusted lieutenant so you can be a landholder/guildmaster/school-founder AND have go adventuring.

Since there's no restriction to prevent you from just playing two characters and toting around the rest at loot-carriers and out of combat support, well, suffice to say that's why it failed as a feat.

What I never get about Leadership is why it's even nessicary to exist in the first place. I mean, what's wrong with using DM Fiat to handle this sort of thing?

Flickerdart
2010-05-30, 01:16 PM
What I never get about Leadership is why it's even nessicary to exist in the first place. I mean, what's wrong with using DM Fiat to handle this sort of thing?
You could say the same thing for any other aspect of the system. Being codified in the rules makes it a theoretically balanced option that the game designers calibrated instead of a wild ad-hoc ruling by an amateur DM. Theoretically.

Greenish
2010-05-30, 01:20 PM
Pylons
DM: You're asking if you can get more troops?
Player: Yeah, can I?
DM: Sure, but you'll have to construct additional pylons.Anyway, what's up with druid?

Player: Hey, I want a class that can turn into animals!
DM: Okay, cool.
Player: I want to also turn into elementals!
DM: Sure, why not.
Player: And I should get 9th level spells, too.
DM: …Okay?
Player: Hey, and it would be really cool to have a pet fighter!
DM: Sure, that sounds balanced!

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 01:24 PM
You could say the same thing for any other aspect of the system. Being codified in the rules makes it a theoretically balanced option that the game designers calibrated instead of a wild ad-hoc ruling by an amateur DM. Theoretically.

Codified damage makes sense, since you can expect a sword to act consistantly like a sword. But with Leadership, it's making it so that people will follow a certain character in a mathematically predictable manner. What if say, you're a great orator, and motivate the masses into revolution. This would give you a number of followers potentially VASTLY beyond the scope of the Leadership feat. Forcing players to work under the feat would mean that beyond the 20 or so people you could fit under your Leadership score, the rest of the masses would just dismiss you as full of crap and ignore you.

AstralFire
2010-05-30, 01:26 PM
You can codify something like that; the flaw is in tying it to level.

Sliver
2010-05-30, 01:26 PM
Anyway, what's up with druid?

Player: Hey, I want a class that can turn into animals!
DM: Okay, cool.
Player: I want to also turn into elementals!
DM: Sure, why not.
Player: And I should get 9th level spells, too.
DM: …Okay?
Player: Hey, and it would be really cool to have a pet fighter!
DM: Sure, that sounds balanced!

At that point, this is as minor as an archer PC asking to make his own arrows between fights to ignore their numbers and costs. You just don't bother anymore.

Flickerdart
2010-05-30, 01:27 PM
Codified damage makes sense, since you can expect a sword to act consistantly like a sword. But with Leadership, it's making it so that people will follow a certain character in a mathematically predictable manner. What if say, you're a great orator, and motivate the masses into revolution. This would give you a number of followers potentially VASTLY beyond the scope of the Leadership feat. Forcing players to work under the feat would mean that beyond the 20 or so people you could fit under your Leadership score, the rest of the masses would just dismiss you as full of crap and ignore you.
No, it means that while the masses might think you have something going for you (your electorate), your direct subordinate (political party members) only number a handful, especially for a low-level character. Just because they're not directly under your command doesn't mean they don't think highly of you.

Thespianus
2010-05-30, 01:31 PM
Anyway, what's up with druid?

Player: Hey, I want a class that can turn into animals!
DM: Okay, cool.
Player: I want to also turn into elementals!
DM: Sure, why not.
Player: And I should get 9th level spells, too.
DM: …Okay?
Player: Hey, and it would be really cool to have a pet fighter!
DM: Sure, that sounds balanced!
You got the last one wrong:

DM: No, that's clearly unbalanced, I'm putting my foot down. I'm giving you a penalty: You only get Medium BAB and you can't be chaotic good.

2xMachina
2010-05-30, 01:32 PM
Anyway, what's up with druid?

Player: Hey, I want a class that can turn into animals!
DM: Okay, cool.
Player: I want to also turn into elementals!
DM: Sure, why not.
Player: And I should get 9th level spells, too.
DM: …Okay?
Player: Hey, and it would be really cool to have a pet fighter!
DM: Sure, that sounds balanced!

Player: I want to change into a Outsider too!
DM: Okayyy...
Player: And get their abilities!
DM: ...
Player: And bring along their plane with me!
DM: ...
Player: And let me and my allies benefit from the advantages, but not the disadvantages of the planar traits.
DM: ...

Player: I want to use a spell to make a Custom Plane! And use it with my PrC class feature!

Greenish
2010-05-30, 01:34 PM
DM: No, that's clearly unbalanced, I'm putting my foot down. I'm giving you a penalty: You only get Medium BAB and you can't be chaotic good.Player: Woe is me! *faints melodramatically*

[Edit]: Yeah, Planar Shepherd is just weird. How did anyone ever think it balanced is beyond me.

Yukitsu
2010-05-30, 01:38 PM
Real conversation:

"Hey DM, can I learn a low level spell that gives me full cover as an immediate action?"
"No, what the hell is wrong with you?"
"Can I learn wings of cover?"
"Sure."

tyckspoon
2010-05-30, 01:50 PM
Well, if they chose actually useful feats, it would kick your ass even more than usual. There's such a thing a too much of a good thing.

It's actually just because they wrote it in the Core books and quite rapidly ran out of feats, since they didn't want to deal with giving it Epic feats. Suppose they could have given it Improved Natural Attack for all of its attack types and Improved Multiattack, tho.

PId6
2010-05-30, 01:50 PM
Streamers. Oh god, Streamers.

Claudius Maximus
2010-05-30, 02:00 PM
Dragonwrought.

Greenish
2010-05-30, 02:13 PM
Dragonwrought.What's wrong with it? (Aside from Sovereign Archetypes and Epic feats.) :smallcool:

Claudius Maximus
2010-05-30, 02:18 PM
There's nothing wrong with it, unless you use the interpretation that "venerable bonuses apply".

Interpretation? I don't see how you can interpret it to not work.

For Valor
2010-05-30, 02:19 PM
No one's mentioned Miracle.

Player: I don't like the way this war's going, can I have a spell that rewrites history?
DM: Do you love your God?
Player: .... ummmm... yes.
DM: Then of course!

Riffington
2010-05-30, 02:20 PM
Interpretation? I don't see how you can interpret it to not work.

Because dragons don't have standard aging effects. There's no such thing as a venerable dragon. They have special dragon age categories, and getting to Ancient costs XP to buy all those HD.

lesser_minion
2010-05-30, 02:24 PM
No one's mentioned Miracle.

Player: I don't like the way this war's going, can I have a spell that rewrites history?
DM: Do you love your God?
Player: .... ummmm... yes.
DM: Then of course!

It doesn't do anything remotely that good.

The more powerful uses are absolutely up to the DM, and the 'required' effects aren't as broken as wish. You can wish up an item that allows you to cast wish three times. Not possible with Miracle.

Flickerdart
2010-05-30, 02:32 PM
It doesn't do anything remotely that good.

The more powerful uses are absolutely up to the DM, and the 'required' effects aren't as broken as wish. You can wish up an item that allows you to cast wish three times. Not possible with Miracle.
There's a reason that people use Shadow Miracles and not Shadow Wishes. :smalltongue:

Riffington
2010-05-30, 02:33 PM
You can wish up an item that allows you to cast wish three times.

But wouldn't that cost you 36,836 XP?

arguskos
2010-05-30, 02:36 PM
Streamers. Oh god, Streamers.
How did we make it to page three without Streamers?! Ugh, hate that spell SO MUCH. IT BE SO STUPID AUGH GOD. :smallyuk:

The Big Dice
2010-05-30, 02:39 PM
You can wish up an item that allows you to cast wish three times.

I miss the suggestion that people who do that get stuck in a time loop, eternally wishing for something that gave them more wishes. Then using those wishes to wish for more wishes. And so on, ad infinitum.

AstralFire
2010-05-30, 02:39 PM
How did we make it to page three without Streamers?! Ugh, hate that spell SO MUCH. IT BE SO STUPID AUGH GOD. :smallyuk:

...? What are those?

Boci
2010-05-30, 02:41 PM
...? What are those?

S A spell that does xd6 damage whenever you take any actions. Any.

PId6
2010-05-30, 02:42 PM
S A spell that does xd6 damage whenever you take any actions. Any.
It's worse; it's Xd10. :smallannoyed:

Though as a DM, I like it for the fact that it does help reduce table talk between characters during battles. Characters are much less likely to have long conversations with each other in 6 seconds of combat when each word deals 5d10 damage to them. :smallbiggrin:

AstralFire
2010-05-30, 02:45 PM
....? What? Where is this spell?

PId6
2010-05-30, 02:46 PM
....? What? Where is this spell?
Shining South

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-30, 02:54 PM
There's a reason that people use Shadow Miracles and not Shadow Wishes. :smalltongue:

It's because Wish is Universal, and therefore not Shadow-able. People use normal Miracles instead of Wishes because the effects are roughly in line in power but the cost is smaller (IIRC 5000 XP for Wish and 3000 for Miracle, with Miracle only needing XP for more powerful effects 5000 XP minimum for Wish and the same for Miracle's most powerful effects, it's lesser effects have no cost).

lesser_minion
2010-05-30, 03:03 PM
But wouldn't that cost you 36,836 XP?

No, it costs you 5,168 xp. The reason for this has already been discussed.

Regarding the cost of Miracle, it's free for guideline effects, and 5,000 xp for effects in line with a more powerful use of a wish spell.

The guideline effects are - in most cases - not exactly brilliant, although the spell emulation isn't bad. However, Miracle only gives you 100gp in free components, and the emulated spell's XP cost must be paid no matter what.

Ashram
2010-05-30, 03:05 PM
Technically, Wish only has its "limitations" spelled out in its text because Miracle isn't just using arcane power to distort reality; it's asking your deity (Or divine concept) for a favor. Depending on who your deity is, however, you have less of a chance of being a greedy prick. I don't think Pelor is going to want to give you that super awesome armor or weapon you've been wanting if you haven't been doing your duties.

Also, using Miracle for the spell replication ability doesn't cost XP, unlike Wish.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-30, 03:09 PM
No, it costs you 5,168 xp. The reason for this has already been discussed.

From the SRD:

XP Cost

The minimum XP cost for casting wish is 5,000 XP. When a wish duplicates a spell that has an XP cost, you must pay 5,000 XP or that cost, whichever is more. When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.

I'm not going to work that out but 5,168 XP is way off, unless this has been changed.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-30, 03:20 PM
Weapon Focus:

"Hey, I wrote up this feat, it gives me a +1 bonus on attacks with one type of weapon."
"...a feat. You get 7 feats through your character's entire existence, and you want to spend one of them on a +1 to-hit for one kind of weapon..."
"Yeah, but it's all the time! I still get the +1 to hit with that weapon even if I'm dispelled or locked in a prison without my gear!"
"Hahahahahaha no."

PId6
2010-05-30, 03:25 PM
I'm not going to work that out but 5,168 XP is way off, unless this has been changed.
Actually, it should cost 0 XP, as long as you use Wish in a way that doesn't involve casting it yourself. The only restriction on Wishing magic items is the XP cost, and getting Wish through magic items or SLAs negates that, so Ring of Three Wishes goes infinite by itself.

lesser_minion
2010-05-30, 03:26 PM
I'm not going to work that out but 5,168 XP is way off, unless this has been changed.

Yes, I know. I halved it by mistake instead of doubling, and it's actually 5,672 xp.

Base cost 8,400gp /25 = 336 *2 = 672.


Actually, it should cost 0 XP, as long as you use Wish in a way that doesn't involve casting it yourself. The only restriction on Wishing magic items is the XP cost, and getting Wish through magic items or SLAs negates that, so Ring of Three Wishes goes infinite by itself.

No. The XP cost of a spell to be cast from an item is paid when the item is crafted. If the spell can have variable effects with different costs, then you can only produce an effect that was paid for.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-30, 03:40 PM
Player: "I want to be able to get more attacks in a round as my skills increase, say an extra one for every 5 BAB I have but at a -5 penalty."
DM: "Yeah, your damage really doesn't keep up with the Wizard's as it is, I think that's a good change."
Player: "But if I move more than 5 ft, I should only get one!"
DM: "...?"

PId6
2010-05-30, 03:45 PM
No. The XP cost of a spell to be cast from an item is paid when the item is crafted. If the spell has a variable cost, then the only reading the rules seem to support is "you get what you paid for" - i.e. wishing a magic item from another magic item fails because the xp cost of the new item went unpaid.
That's a reasonable interpretation, but the rules don't mention it at all. It's possible to interpret it as crafting something with a variable cost requires only the minimum possible cost (in this case 25,000 gp), since the rules don't mention anything about magic items failing like this. It'd never get past a real DM, but that's the whole point of this thread.

And besides, there's always Wishing via SLAs. There's no ambiguity there.

QuantumSteve
2010-05-30, 03:50 PM
I really don't see how Wish is broken, if the DM thinks your wish is un reasonable, he's free to give you only some (or none) of what you wished for. Or he can give you whatever he wants instead, (ex. fiery death)

Miracle: You ask your Deity (read: your DM) for a Miracle. If your Deity (DM) doesn't want to give it, it(he) can give you whatever it(he) wants instead (ex. fiery death) Even though you are his/her loyal devotee, if you constantly pester you Deity for Miracles, I'm sure he will eventually grant you some Fiery Death.

As for Leadership, the actual mechanics for the feat are not in the PH, but the DMG. The feat even says "Check with your DM" If you do take the feat, it should go down something like this:

Player: I want to take the Leadership Feat.
DM: OK. You attract this cohort and these followers.
Player: Actually, I was thinking of something like this (hand character sheet)
DM: An Artificer, eh? Well, he didn't show up to try-outs. This guy did.
Player: But, I don't want that guy.
DM: Well, you could try to attract a different cohort.
Player: OK. I do that.
DM: Alright, this guy shows up.
Player: I don't want him either.
DM: OK, you could attract yet another; but, in the meantime, you party is investigating this dungeon. Oh, it looks like you don't actually have a 6th level feat yet. *Sucker*

Riffington
2010-05-30, 03:50 PM
That's a reasonable interpretation, but the rules don't mention it at all.

The cost to create these items is the magic supplies cost and the base XP cost (both determined by the base price) plus the costs for the components

The cost for a wish that creates a ring of three wishes is 36836 XP.
Yes, an SLA is different. *That's* the one that shouldn't have been approved.

lesser_minion
2010-05-30, 03:54 PM
That's a reasonable interpretation, but the rules don't mention it at all. It's possible to interpret it as crafting something with a variable cost requires only the minimum possible cost (in this case 25,000 gp), since the rules don't mention anything about magic items failing like this.

Well, no. What the rules actually say is that if a spell to be cast from a magic item has an XP cost or an expensive material component, you must provide it when you create the item.

The term 'spell' can refer to a specific instance of a spell - which it's perfectly reasonable to assume it does here, since we know that a spell can have instances with different costs.

So it's the specific instance that must be paid for, not the 'template cost'.

Boci
2010-05-30, 03:56 PM
As for Leadership, the actual mechanics for the feat are not in the PH, but the DMG. The feat even says "Check with your DM" If you do take the feat, it should go down something like this:

Player: I want to take the Leadership Feat.
DM: OK. You attract this cohort and these followers.
Player: Actually, I was thinking of something like this (hand character sheet)
DM: An Artificer, eh? Well, he didn't show up to try-outs. This guy did.
Player: But, I don't want that guy.
DM: Well, you could try to attract a different cohort.
Player: OK. I do that.
DM: Alright, this guy shows up.
Player: I don't want him either.
DM: OK, you could attract yet another; but, in the meantime, you party is investigating this dungeon. Oh, it looks like you don't actually have a 6th level feat yet. *Sucker*

Yes DMs can be jerks. They can also be reasonable.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-30, 04:00 PM
Actually, the full-list casters (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Warmage) would all be pretty dubious coming from a player: you chose those spells yourself, after all, rather than being required to use the list in the book. Since the raw number of spells they have is greater than a Sorcerer, and they have plenty of extra features on top of it, I'd be pretty surprised if a DM allowed them in a game.

Which is a shame, because they are oodles more balanced than any other casters in the game.

Yeah... I've often wondered what a Transformation type version of one of these classes would be like. Or a Summoning version.

I agree that Orbs are broken. Lesser Orbs aren't bad, but I'm really tired of Orbs of Force.

Freedom of Movement & True Seeing are also amazing ruiners... and the Nemisis Feat.

Oh, and allowing "Arcanists" as a Favored Enemy (and then getting the Nemisis Feat).

And why are "Outsider: Evil" and "Outsider: Good" acceptable catagories when "Humanoid: Elf" and "Humanoid: Dwarf" are separate?

PId6
2010-05-30, 04:03 PM
Well, no. What the rules actually say is that if a spell to be cast from a magic item has an XP cost or an expensive material component, you must provide it when you create the item.
There's no rule that says that a magic item which grants you a variable-cost spell would fail if you make the cost greater than the initial crafting cost. It'd be far more reasonable if there was, but there isn't. A Ring of Three Wishes lets you use Wish; that's it. And it costs 11,475 gp + 15,918 XP to craft. That's it.


The term 'spell' can refer to a specific instance of a spell - which it's perfectly reasonable to assume it does here, since we know that a spell can have instances with different costs.
The above is a reasonable interpretation, but the rules are not nearly so clear on this point. The interpretation relies on an assumption as you yourself say; due to the ambiguity in the rules, there are other valid and far more broken (and thus less reasonable) interpretations possible.

Greenish
2010-05-30, 04:05 PM
Oh, and allowing "Arcanists" as a Favored Enemy (and then getting the Nemisis Feat).

And why are "Outsider: Evil" and "Outsider: Good" acceptable catagories when "Humanoid: Elf" and "Humanoid: Dwarf" are separate?Nemesis. Also, the categories are Type (subtype). Humanoid (elf) covers all elven subraces (including drow), Outsider (evil) covers all outsiders with evil subtype. Most humanoids don't have alignment subtype, and making all of them fall under the same category would cause the category to be hugely bloated.

lesser_minion
2010-05-30, 04:05 PM
The item doesn't 'fail' - it just does nothing because you're casting a spell that wasn't imbued into the item.

I'll accept that there are other ways to read the rule, but I don't consider them as well-supported as "you may have whatever you paid for".

PId6
2010-05-30, 04:08 PM
The item doesn't 'fail' - if you wish for a ring of three wishes from a scroll of wish then it acts in roughly the same way as if you'd tried to cast Nailed to the Sky from it.
The crafting rules don't mention variable costing spells, so again, there are no actual guidelines by RAW. Your interpretation is the most reasonable one, and probably the one most likely to be used in an actual game, but not the only one.

It's yet another RAW abuse. Let's leave it at that.

lsfreak
2010-05-30, 04:13 PM
I agree that Orbs are broken. Lesser Orbs aren't bad, but I'm really tired of Orbs of Force.

They're not broken, they just make no sense as instantaneous conjurations. Well, getting thrown into an antimagic field might be broken, but other than that.


And why are "Outsider: Evil" and "Outsider: Good" acceptable catagories when "Humanoid: Elf" and "Humanoid: Dwarf" are separate?
I agree that makes no sense. I'd probably run Favored Enemy down to about 10-12 categories (off the top of my head, humanoid, goblinoid, reptilian, giant/monstrous, hippies [fey/elves]; animal/beast, aberration, outsider, elemental, undead, construct).

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-30, 04:14 PM
Nemesis. Also, the categories are Type (subtype). Humanoid (elf) covers all elven subraces (including drow), Outsider (evil) covers all outsiders with evil subtype. Most humanoids don't have alignment subtype, and making all of them fall under the same category would cause the category to be hugely bloated.

My problem is, why would someone who studied how to beat Demons (and detect their presence) automatically know how to beat Devils (and Yugoloths, and every half-fiend/fiendish creature, etc.)?

And again... Archanists?

"I know how to beat Wizards... and Sorcerers... heck, anyone that casts arcane spells!... and Tieflings... and Aasimar... and every other monster that has SLAs, good or evil... and I can automatically detect them within a certain range!"

Riffington
2010-05-30, 04:17 PM
It's yet another RAW abuse. Let's leave it at that.

I guess to me this thread is not about RAW abuse, but rather about bad RAI.
Because even a good DM could approve a reasonable-sounding feat/spell without writing down the specific wording correctly. Whereas whoever approved Shivering Touch was doing her job poorly.

lsfreak
2010-05-30, 04:18 PM
My problem is, why would someone who studied how to beat Demons (and detect their presence) automatically know how to beat Devils (and Yugoloths, and every half-fiend/fiendish creature, etc.)?

Does it make any more sense that someone with Favored Enemy (human) knows equally as much about defeating a tribal society of humans who primarily uses hit-and-run tactics, a feudal culture based around the standard D&D setting, a magic culture where everyone is a spellcaster, and a late-Ren culture that makes use of cannon?

Riffington
2010-05-30, 04:24 PM
Does it make any more sense that someone with Favored Enemy (human) knows equally as much about defeating a tribal society of humans who primarily uses hit-and-run tactics, a feudal culture based around the standard D&D setting, a magic culture where everyone is a spellcaster, and a late-Ren culture that makes use of cannon?

It makes no difference if you're black or white, if you're a boy or a girl. If the music's pumping it will... oh wait.

Psychonix
2010-05-30, 04:37 PM
Cold Casting.
And it seemed so harmless...

herbe
2010-05-30, 04:42 PM
Its out of thread but critical succes on natural 20 or even failure on 1. they are nonsense

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-30, 04:53 PM
Its out of thread but critical succes on natural 20 or even failure on 1. they are nonsense

That's only for attack rolls and saves, and what's so bad about them? Critical and Fumble charts do tend to be nonsense, IME, but that rule just means that even the lowliest creature can do something to any opponent. That rule stops automatic wins (apart from things that would do the same regardless of whether the rule was in place or not).

I can't think of any really good examples for the thread at the moment, sorry. I'll get something eventually.

Another for the Monk maybe?

Player: I want to play a monk.
DM: Okay, sure. We'll just lay out a few things.
Player: I should be really hard to hit, due to my wisdom and knowledge.
DM: Hmmm... Yeah, that sounds good. Maybe eventually you can learn all languages, to continue the theme.
Player: And I'd like to be resistant to poisons and diseases. Training of the body and mind strengthing me against such attacks.
DM: Great, that works, I'll add in some resistance to magic for the mental training. How about becoming an Outsider as the capstone ability?
Player: Yes, that would be awesome!
DM: Okay, anything else?
Player: Oh, could I get the ability to attack really fast and hard with my fists and certain other weapons? And maybe some kind of acrobatic ability.
DM: What? Why would a monk have those?
Player: Well with all the martial arts training...
DM: Since when do monks do martial arts? They pray in a church all day and help the poor and needy.
Player: That's a European monk, I was talking about an Eastern monk.
DM: But I was talking about a European monk!
Player: Then why did we agree on those abilities?
DM: I don't know... To hell with it, the game's about to start, you can use this mish-mash and like it.

And so the Monk class was born.

Riffington
2010-05-30, 05:22 PM
Which of the monk's abilities do you see as being typical of a European monk but not an Eastern martial artist?

Greenish
2010-05-30, 05:38 PM
Which of the monk's abilities do you see as being typical of a European monk but not an Eastern martial artist?Abundant Step. Because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

The Glyphstone
2010-05-30, 05:40 PM
Abundant Step. Because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

European monks can teleport?

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-30, 05:42 PM
Which of the monk's abilities do you see as being typical of a European monk but not an Eastern martial artist?

Probably the speaking with anything, resistance to magic and eventual Outsider-hood, though those are definitely for higher levels (apart from speaking with anything, level 6+ would be suitable for that I think).

I just get the feeling that the designers all had sublty different kinds of monk in mind and had to compromise. There are elements of scholarly, holy-man abilities, elements of martial artists focused on hit-and-run, acrobatic styles and elements of martial artists who hit hard and lots but lack mobility even in the Core class. Later ACFs only make the class' role easier to identify in a particular build, the basic class has no particular role to fill.

To be honest I don't see why the class was needed. Other melee classes cover martial artists (including Barbarians, despite the classes' alignment restrictions), Clerics cover less physical monks (they also cover martial artists, but they cover melee in general too and it can be assumed this was not the intent), as do Wizards and the ninja-type monk is covered by the Rogue (possibly with an appropriate caster class).

Note that I say this at past eleven at night without looking into the question or my own answer too much. If you find this offensive as stereotyping or something similar (or even something unrelated to that) please do not hesitate to tell me so.

Greenish
2010-05-30, 05:42 PM
European monks can teleport?Of course. How did you expect the inquisitors to get around before double-deckers were invented?

Dvandemon
2010-05-30, 05:44 PM
That's only for attack rolls and saves, and what's so bad about them? Critical and Fumble charts do tend to be nonsense, IME, but that rule just means that even the lowliest creature can do something to any opponent. That rule stops automatic wins (apart from things that would do the same regardless of whether the rule was in place or not).

I can't think of any really good examples for the thread at the moment, sorry. I'll get something eventually.

Another for the Monk maybe?

Player: I want to play a monk.
DM: Okay, sure. We'll just lay out a few things.
Player: I should be really hard to hit, due to my wisdom and knowledge.
DM: Hmmm... Yeah, that sounds good. Maybe eventually you can learn all languages, to continue the theme.
Player: And I'd like to be resistant to poisons and diseases. Training of the body and mind strengthing me against such attacks.
DM: Great, that works, I'll add in some resistance to magic for the mental training. How about becoming an Outsider as the capstone ability?
Player: Yes, that would be awesome!
DM: Okay, anything else?
Player: Oh, could I get the ability to attack really fast and hard with my fists and certain other weapons? And maybe some kind of acrobatic ability.
DM: What? Why would a monk have those?
Player: Well with all the martial arts training...
DM: Since when do monks do martial arts? They pray in a church all day and help the poor and needy.
Player: That's a European monk, I was talking about an Eastern monk.
DM: But I was talking about a European monk!
Player: Then why did we agree on those abilities?
DM: I don't know... To hell with it, the game's about to start, you can use this mish-mash and like it.

And so the Monk class was born.
Player:...and at higher levels, my kung-fu is impossibly hard, magic and has a moral standing
DM: GTFO

Pluto
2010-05-30, 05:47 PM
PI just get the feeling that the designers all had sublty different kinds of monk in mind and had to compromise. There are elements of scholarly, holy-man abilities, elements of martial artists focused on hit-and-run, acrobatic styles and elements of martial artists who hit hard and lots but lack mobility even in the Core class.
Monks have been doing kung fu since the 70s.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-30, 05:48 PM
Of course. How did you expect the inquisitors to get around before double-deckers were invented?

Spiral ramps, of course. :) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hEh2NH6teY)

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-30, 05:55 PM
Player:...and at higher levels, my kung-fu is impossibly hard, magic and has a moral standing
DM: GTFO

Player: Hey! I hadn't even mentioned making an unarmed strike with my d-
DM: *throws PHB*
Player: *dodges* Okay, so I won't do that. How about walking through walls?
DM: *DMG*
Player: *dodges* Killing people with remote-control super-damaging vibrations?
DM: *as Player dodges* Now you're just making stuff up to piss me off. *MM to the forehead*
Player: Ow!
DM: The one who takes responsibility doesn't have to chip in for the food. *glances at wounded Player* And gets a free Candle of Invocation.
Other Player: I thought they were banned.
DM: This one isn't.

Raimun
2010-05-30, 06:17 PM
Yeah, Miracle.

Basicly, a 9th level spell that can become any of your known spells up to 8th level or any other spell up to 7th level.

Prepare several Miracles a day and I'd imagine any DM would struggle a bit with preparing obstacles for the adventuring party. Almost anykind of situation can be solved with the right spell and with Miracle, you have almost all of them. Attack, defense, transportation, illusion, misc-spells, you name it.

AslanCross
2010-05-30, 06:50 PM
Pretty sure it's a class, but from what the people here have been saying it seems to be a race too.

It's a race in the Eberron Campaign setting.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-30, 06:54 PM
Yeah, Miracle.

Basicly, a 9th level spell that can become any of your known spells up to 8th level or any other spell up to 7th level.

Prepare several Miracles a day and I'd imagine any DM would struggle a bit with preparing obstacles for the adventuring party. Almost anykind of situation can be solved with the right spell and with Miracle, you have almost all of them. Attack, defense, transportation, illusion, misc-spells, you name it.

It's a 9th level spell though. As someone on these boards said or quoted, 9th level spells should bring with them the same sort of awe that inspired Oppenheimer to declare "I am become Death, destroyer of worlds". Petitioning for literal divine intervention to give you the perfect too for the job at hand is 9th-level spell appropriate...and the DM just has to plan more obstacles than the cleric can prepare miracles.

Gametime
2010-05-30, 08:57 PM
It's a 9th level spell though. As someone on these boards said or quoted, 9th level spells should bring with them the same sort of awe that inspired Oppenheimer to declare "I am become Death, destroyer of worlds". Petitioning for literal divine intervention to give you the perfect too for the job at hand is 9th-level spell appropriate...and the DM just has to plan more obstacles than the cleric can prepare miracles.

Or Oppenheimer was just easily impressed. I mean, destroying a city? Level 1 spells can do that!

The Glyphstone
2010-05-30, 08:58 PM
Or Oppenheimer was just easily impressed. I mean, destroying a city? Level 1 spells with extensive amounts of metamagic in moderate-to-high-level optimization can do that!

Fixed that for you. :)

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-30, 09:05 PM
Does it make any more sense that someone with Favored Enemy (human) knows equally as much about defeating a tribal society of humans who primarily uses hit-and-run tactics, a feudal culture based around the standard D&D setting, a magic culture where everyone is a spellcaster, and a late-Ren culture that makes use of cannon?

When you're talking about studying biology, yes. When you're talking about a supernatural ability to sense a specific life form, yes.

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 09:43 PM
When you're talking about studying biology, yes. When you're talking about a supernatural ability to sense a specific life form, yes.

What about when you're talking about a learned knowledge of habits, fighting styles, and telltale signs of presence?

Thespianus
2010-05-30, 10:00 PM
European monks can teleport?
No, only asian monks can do that. ;)

lsfreak
2010-05-30, 10:05 PM
When you're talking about studying biology, yes.
If that were the case, you'd hate to take Favored Enemy (imp) separate from Favored Enemy (pit fiend). Favored enemy (dog) separate from Favored Enemy (bear).


When you're talking about a supernatural ability to sense a specific life form, yes.
We're not, though, we're talking about Favored Enemy.

awa
2010-05-30, 10:13 PM
I think knowing their fighting styles would fall more into favored enemy (organization) than favored enemy human. Because all the difference fighting styles in the world still wont have the variety that something like magical beasts or aberration has. Between brute force bruisers, magical specialists and a hundred other bizarre specialists. A humans still limited by his gross physical form.
edit added

Complete warrior samurai it make the monk look good.

Heliomance
2010-05-30, 11:03 PM
Actually, the CW Samurai can be viable. Shneekey has a rather scary (no pun intended) Intimidate-focused build which (IIRC) is Samurai 20.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-30, 11:37 PM
If that were the case, you'd hate to take Favored Enemy (imp) separate from Favored Enemy (pit fiend). Favored enemy (dog) separate from Favored Enemy (bear).


We're not, though, we're talking about Favored Enemy.

I'm talking about Nemesis as an extension of Favored Enemy.


I think knowing their fighting styles would fall more into favored enemy (organization) than favored enemy human. Because all the difference fighting styles in the world still wont have the variety that something like magical beasts or aberration has. Between brute force bruisers, magical specialists and a hundred other bizarre specialists. A humans still limited by his gross physical form.

Even if you validate "Favored Enemy: Animals" & "Favored Enemy: Humans", how can you justify similarities between Devils & Demons?

And heck, you can also get "Favored Enemy: Outsiders (Chaotic)"... which puts Demons, Slaadi and Eldarian in the same catagory.

And, again, let's not mention "Favored Enemy: Archanists". :smallamused:

Eorran
2010-05-30, 11:40 PM
Honestly, I'm surprised at only one mention of Teleport.

Player: "I want to be able to go from where I am to anywhere in the world in six seconds, with no cost, as long as I know where I'm going."
DM: "We finished the Star Trek campaign last week. Buy a frickin horse."

PId6
2010-05-30, 11:48 PM
Honestly, I'm surprised at only one mention of Teleport.

Player: "I want to be able to go from where I am to anywhere in the world in six seconds, with no cost, as long as I know where I'm going."
DM: "We finished the Star Trek campaign last week. Buy a frickin horse."
That's because it's a perfectly fine spell. It's not broken for 5th level, it's a classic fantasy ability, and only bad railroading DMs can't deal with it (good railroading DMs can). Unless you're explicitly playing a low/no-magic campaign (in which case there shouldn't be wizards high enough level to cast it), the above response isn't really reasonable.

Tavar
2010-05-31, 12:01 AM
And, again, let's not mention "Favored Enemy: Archanists". :smallamused:

Actually, this one makes alot of sense. Arcane casters prepare and cast spells pretty uniformly, so it makes sense that one would be able to use a braod range of tactics against the group.


And really, favored enemy is set up the way it is so that it's actually a useful ability. Or at least, that's the attempt. Not sure about the execution.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-31, 12:11 AM
Actually, this one makes alot of sense. Arcane casters prepare and cast spells pretty uniformly, so it makes sense that one would be able to use a braod range of tactics against the group.


And really, favored enemy is set up the way it is so that it's actually a useful ability. Or at least, that's the attempt. Not sure about the execution.

Unfortunately, "Favored Enemy: Arcanists" includes all creatures with SLAs.

lsfreak
2010-05-31, 12:14 AM
Even if you validate "Favored Enemy: Animals" & "Favored Enemy: Humans", how can you justify similarities between Devils & Demons?

How do you justify the differences between devils and devils? They have vastly different abilities and tactics from creature to creature, even within the category of 'devil.' And unlike humans, they also have vastly different physical forms. You can't tell me the biology of an imp, a hellcat, and a pit fiend are in any way similar.

My point is, there comes a point where this is a game and sometimes balance overtakes sense (which I want to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that's why they split it up like they did). Really though, Knowledge Devotion is Favored Enemy Done RightTM, because it's better mechanically and makes sense fluff-wise.

sambo.
2010-05-31, 12:21 AM
Wish
DM: So you're saying to can wish for anything in my game permanently?
Player: Yes.
DM: With no penalties?
Player: Yes.
DM: ..How about no.

i've found the best way to adjudicate Wishes as a DM is as follows:

the player making the wish, must state their wish in the following format:

"I Wish.........."

if there are too many caveats or too many uses (more than one generally) of the word "and" or if i rekon they are being downright silly or attempting to abuse the Wish too much, then the Wish fails, but still burns their XP.

if the wish, as stated by the player, has obvious holes or flaws in it, then i'll exploit those holes and flaws to give them exactly what they wished for. which may, or may not, be what they thought they wished for.

players learn VERY quickly not to go overboard.

lsfreak
2010-05-31, 12:24 AM
i've found the best way to adjudicate Wishes as a DM is as follows:

the player making the wish, must state their wish in the following format:

"I Wish.........."

if there are too many caveats or too many uses (more than one generally) of the word "and" or if i rekon they are being downright silly or attempting to abuse the Wish too much, then the Wish fails, but still burns their XP.

if the wish, as stated by the player, has obvious holes or flaws in it, then i'll exploit those holes and flaws to give them exactly what they wished for. which may, or may not, be what they thought they wished for.

players learn VERY quickly not to go overboard.

Just as long as you don't pervert the list of wishes that are explicitly laid out as risk-free, that's fine. But I've found/heard that most DM's use wish as an excuse to **** over the players.
EDIT: And most players overdo the legalese because DM's use wish as an excuse to **** over the players. I'm all for screwing with them when they wish for something way beyond what wish is listed as doing, or if it's from another creature (efreeti).

OracleofWuffing
2010-05-31, 12:28 AM
"I've got a level 2 wizard/bard/sorcerer spell that gives the target a -40 penalty to a skill check and blindness. Oh, don't worry about it, if you save you don't get blinded."

I mean, don't get me wrong, glitterdust is a fun spell, but try using it when your DM glanced over that spell. :smalltongue:

Gametime
2010-05-31, 12:34 AM
"I've got a level 2 wizard/bard/sorcerer spell that gives the target a -40 penalty to a skill check and blindness. Oh, don't worry about it, if you save you don't get blinded."

I mean, don't get me wrong, glitterdust is a fun spell, but try using it when your DM glanced over that spell. :smalltongue:

Don't forget the part about automatically making invisible creatures visibly outlined!

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-31, 01:07 AM
Diplomacy.

Player: "So, I want my char to have this skill, when if I roll 20 or more, with modifiers, any hostile creature has to stop being hostile."
DM: "Do they get a save or something?
Player: "Er, no."
DM "Sounds abusable ... what kind of modifiers?"
Player: "Well, there's my Charisma bonus..."
DM: "A charisma check against DC 20? Ok, doable but very hard. I think I can allow it."
Player: "Wait, there's also my skill ranks - which is basically my level plus 3. And a bunch of synergy bonuses, and racial bonuses, and ..."
DM: "Get out of here."

Boci
2010-05-31, 08:54 AM
That's because it's a perfectly fine spell. It's not broken for 5th level, it's a classic fantasy ability, and only bad railroading DMs can't deal with it (good railroading DMs can). Unless you're explicitly playing a low/no-magic campaign (in which case there shouldn't be wizards high enough level to cast it), the above response isn't really reasonable.

But we're not discussing only broken spells, but spells that I DM would inf suspisious if a player suggested them. Like the beguiler, its weaker than a sorceror, but if you showd it to a DM as homebrew, a fair amount would probably see "Sorceror with more spells known and class features" and not allow it based on that.

Riffington
2010-05-31, 09:11 AM
That's because it's a perfectly fine spell. It's not broken for 5th level, it's a classic fantasy ability, and only bad railroading DMs can't deal with it (good railroading DMs can). Unless you're explicitly playing a low/no-magic campaign (in which case there shouldn't be wizards high enough level to cast it), the above response isn't really reasonable.

No way. Teleport completely changes the game. Prior to teleport, if you want to travel from one location to another, you had some barriers. Want to enter the borders of the enemy kingdom? Well, you have to sneak past a guard post or get into a fight. Being pursued by enemy trackers? Not anymore with this spell. Plenty of class features (Pass without trace, Track) are made virtually obsolete. Once the DM lets the players have Teleport, he has to let the enemies have it. And "If I give this to you, everyone's going to have it" is sort of a hallmark of what a DM might not allow.

There are a few fantasy worlds where Teleport exists, a bunch more where it exists only in special gates, and a whole lot where it would ruin the book. Just imagine how short Lord of the Rings would have been.

AstralFire
2010-05-31, 09:14 AM
I much prefer portal magic to long-range teleporting. Or how it was handled in the Enchanted Forest Chronicles.

Eorran
2010-05-31, 09:32 AM
That's because it's a perfectly fine spell. It's not broken for 5th level, it's a classic fantasy ability, and only bad railroading DMs can't deal with it (good railroading DMs can). Unless you're explicitly playing a low/no-magic campaign (in which case there shouldn't be wizards high enough level to cast it), the above response isn't really reasonable.

I'm not sure I really agree with you on a couple of points. The only "classic fantasy" that makes frequent use of Teleport (in my limited experience) is Harry Potter - which is, incidentally, a world where non-magic users have no ability to stand up to wizards.

A good DM can deal with teleport - but it takes a lot of work, especially if the PCs start using scrying as well. It really changes how the game works.

I like the approach used in 4th ed - teleportation is possible but takes time and resources, and is pretty limited until the PCs are nearly godlike beings on their own.

AstralFire
2010-05-31, 09:34 AM
High magic doesn't necessarily make teleportation commonly available either. There are different paradigms. I hate to use Warcraft as an example of anything, but it's a handy one - teleportation and portals exist, but only the best of the best can do a long range teleport to just anywhere. The rest can only generate portals to a few predetermined spots.

Asheron's Call (a better but rarer example), similarly, allowed portal and teleportation - but even as high magic as you got, you could not (even in lore) just teleport to anywhere. You had to tie yourself to specific nexii of power.

Boci
2010-05-31, 09:35 AM
I'm not sure I really agree with you on a couple of points. The only "classic fantasy" that makes frequent use of Teleport (in my limited experience) is Harry Potter - which is, incidentally, a world where non-magic users have no ability to stand up to wizards.

I'm not too sure about that. None of the wizards seemed to use pre combat buffing a lot, so an uzi could prove effective against them.

AstralFire
2010-05-31, 09:37 AM
I'm not too sure about that. None of the wizards seemed to use pre combat buffing a lot, so an uzi could prove effective against them.

Wizards have spells that exist solely to screw with mortal machinery. It might prove effective in a total surprise, but I wouldn't be surprised if it'd be easy to maintain a charm that baffles machines - it just seems like the kind of thing Rowling would pull. All that said, granted-

http://www.sluggy.com/images/comics/080428a.gif (http://www.sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/20080428)

Boci
2010-05-31, 09:41 AM
Wizards have spells that exist solely to screw with mortal machinery. It might prove effective in a total surprise, but I wouldn't be surprised if it'd be easy to maintain a charm that baffles machines - it just seems like the kind of thing Rowling would pull.

There was the charm surounding Hogwarts (which, for the record did not exist until book 4) but that seemed to be location fixed. As I said, pre combat buffing was not widely used, so if they each see eachother at the same time, I'm guessing a mortal could riddle the wizard full of bullets forfore the later could cast a spell.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-31, 09:52 AM
Actually IIRC Rowling actually said in an interview that most wizards couldn't stand against a muggle armed with a gun

Boci
2010-05-31, 09:56 AM
Actually IIRC Rowling actually said in an interview that most wizards couldn't stand against a muggle armed with a gun

I did always wonder at the wedding scene in the final book, why the deatheaters didn't show up with automatic weapons.

AstralFire
2010-05-31, 09:57 AM
Actually IIRC Rowling actually said in an interview that most wizards couldn't stand against a muggle armed with a gun

That makes magic as seen in the Harry Potter universe... seem extremely useless on 90% of accounts. :smallconfused:

Eorran
2010-05-31, 09:59 AM
OK, perhaps a bad example, but at least in-universe, I don't remember any wizard fearing a muggle. In general, there's a condecension towards those who have no magic. (more pronounced, obviously, in the bad guys).

Is there any other fantasy literature that uses D&D style teleportation (by which I mean anwhere to anywhere without significant prep time or cost)?

AstralFire
2010-05-31, 10:04 AM
OK, perhaps a bad example, but at least in-universe, I don't remember any wizard fearing a muggle. In general, there's a condecension towards those who have no magic. (more pronounced, obviously, in the bad guys).

Is there any other fantasy literature that uses D&D style teleportation (by which I mean anwhere to anywhere without significant prep time or cost)?

{table=head]Fantasy Literature | Magic Level | Teleportation
Enchanted Forest Chronicles | Mid | Once a day, significant physical strain, at least more distance than could be covered by mount in a day. Rare. (Long-Range).[br] High magic cost, quick, low strain, dozens of feet. (Short-Range.)
Harry Potter | Mid-Low | Personal teleportation primarily with no actual major cost, but carries physical risks with greater range.
Riftwar Cycle | Low, with a few high individuals | Portal system primarily, ability to visit places already visited and memorized.
Belgariad | Mid-High | Line of sight short-range.
Elenium | Mid-High | Artifact only.
Black Magician Trilogy | Mid-Low | None.
Age of Five Trilogy | High | None.
Discworld Series | Odd. (High effects possible,[br] cause significant issues.) | Not possible, even for Death, his granddaughter, or Time.
[/table]

I'll keep a running tally.

Boci
2010-05-31, 10:07 AM
Raymond E. Feist's world had several artifacts that made such travel capable. Been a long time since I read it though so I forget the exact details. I know the teleportation was very rare.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-31, 10:09 AM
I did always wonder at the wedding scene in the final book, why the deatheaters didn't show up with automatic weapons.

Well, the whole point of the series was that the bad guys considered mundanes to be inferior creatures - it'd have gone completely against their ethos to employ 'muggle' technology.

I think it's actually Word of God that one of the reasons wizards stay hidden is that they would lose an open war against normal people and their weapons, though probably at a horrific cost to the world.

Nero24200
2010-05-31, 10:13 AM
Diplomacy. With the right modifiers it's possible to convince a king to hand over his kingdom to you. Always seemed a little silly to me.

NPC: And now, after spending 20 years building an army to come and face you, I'll finally have my revenge.
PC: Dude..chill *rolls diplomacy*
NPC: Okay...guess those last 20 years were kinda pointless eh? Come, I'll buy you a drink.

Edit: Oh, and Astralfire, have you ever read the Black Magician Trilogy or Age of Five Trilogy? One is mid-to-low magic and has no form of teleportaion of any kind (including portals). The latter is actually high-magic (with the main characters fighting gods near the end) but still no form of teleportation.

Eorran
2010-05-31, 10:13 AM
I know David Eddings' Belgariad had sorcerers who could teleport, but it was line-of-sight only, and made lots of "noise" that other casters could detect.

And his Elenium series did have unlimited teleportation - if you had possesion of a god-killing artifact, and if the artifact wanted to help you.

Feist - yeah, his wizards could teleport to specific places by memorizing the floor pattern. Later on, Pug could go pretty much anywhere, but at that point, he was regularly fighting things of near-deific power.

Boci
2010-05-31, 10:14 AM
Well, the whole point of the series was that the bad guys considered mundanes to be inferior creatures - it'd have gone completely against their ethos to employ 'muggle' technology.

Nah, they use muggle technology, as long as its been augmented with their own magic, like the cars.


I think it's actually Word of God that one of the reasons wizards stay hidden is that they would lose an open war against normal people and their weapons, though probably at a horrific cost to the world.

That sounds believable, like the fairy folk in Artemist Foul.

afroakuma
2010-05-31, 10:15 AM
AstralFire: What about Apparating in HP? There doesn't seem to be any sort of obvious distance limiter, nor does it even require an incantation.

AstralFire
2010-05-31, 10:19 AM
AstralFire: What about Apparating in HP? There doesn't seem to be any sort of obvious distance limiter, nor does it even require an incantation.

I don't remember much about apparating, tbh. I remember portkeys and the floo system. Editing.

afroakuma
2010-05-31, 10:26 AM
As pointed out in this article (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Apparate), Portkeys and the Floo system are largely for those who dislike Apparating or can't pull it off; or for those traveling in groups or to a location shielded from teleports.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-31, 10:29 AM
{table=head]Fantasy Literature | Magic Level | Teleportation
Enchanted Forest Chronicles | Mid | Once a day, significant physical strain, at least more distance than could be covered by mount in a day. Rare. (Long-Range).<br> High magic cost, quick, low strain, dozens of feet. (Short-Range.)
Harry Potter | Mid-Low | Portal system, but no apparent limitations on personal teleportation?
Riftwar Cycle | Low, with a few high individuals | Portal system primarily, ability to visit places already visited and memorized.
Belgariad | Mid-High | Line of sight short-range.
Elenium | Mid-High | Artifact only.
Black Magician Trilogy | Mid-Low | None.
Age of Five Trilogy | High | None.
[/table]

I'll keep a running tally.

Add to this: Night Watch book series - high magic - no teleportation whatsoever - characters described as very powerful wizards have to travel by airplane.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-31, 10:29 AM
Nah, they use muggle technology, as long as its been augmented with their own magic, like the cars.



Well, yeah, but that's not really the same as busting out the SMG's...cars do something that magic reliably can't (efficient transportation), but killing people with magic is the hallmark of evil wizards; it'd be like admitting that their Unforgivable Curses aren't good enough for them to bring guns. Plus, it's the wizard society in general that uses tech+magical augmentation; I don't think the books ever show us Death Eaters employing technology at all (maybe the lights in Malfoy Manor were electric?) - their disdain for muggletech is a significant grade above the average wizard.

AstralFire
2010-05-31, 10:33 AM
As pointed out in this article (http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Apparate), Portkeys and the Floo system are largely for those who dislike Apparating or can't pull it off; or for those traveling in groups or to a location shielded from teleports.

Alright, Harry Potter added a third time. And the Discworld series added.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-31, 10:34 AM
Alright, Harry Potter added a third time. And the Discworld series added.

I don't think he's talking about the Discworld Night Watch, since it's a 'series' and he mentions airplanes.

Nidogg
2010-05-31, 10:59 AM
Simulacrum

Player:I want to make a snowman that lives!
Dm: okay, now, any limitations? I dont want you running around with your Phantasmal slayer called frosty....
Player:Nope!

Cyclocone
2010-05-31, 10:59 AM
I know David Eddings' Belgariad had sorcerers who could teleport, but it was line-of-sight only, and made lots of "noise" that other casters could detect.

I remember Beldin teleporting out of a house at one point, and the other casters specifically noted that it was dangerous to do, since he couldn't see where he was going.

There was also that wild-mage dude who managed to escape death by teleporting randomly and appearing in the air over the ocean.


Though both of those might have been in the Malloreon.

Flickerdart
2010-05-31, 11:05 AM
Alright, Harry Potter added a third time. And the Discworld series added.
The Night Watch series of books and the Discworld book Night Watch are distinct entities.

2xMachina
2010-05-31, 11:11 AM
Add to this: Night Watch book series - high magic - no teleportation whatsoever - characters described as very powerful wizards have to travel by airplane.

Err, I read all 4 Night Watch books, and there IS teleportation. More to portal system, but you know what I meant.

There was an artifact that did it (suddenly teleporting the hero off). And Gizzard/other head (or whatever the head guy's name is) does use portals (in the other realm though). And they used portals to surprise attack the 4 'brothers'.

It's just that it's not that easy, and they've got better use for their magic that they don't teleport you off for your vacation.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-31, 11:13 AM
Glen Cook's Black Company series. Many characters described as "World Breakers"... None could even fly without magic carpets, and those were uber-rare & hard to control.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-05-31, 11:20 AM
Err, I read all 4 Night Watch books, and there IS teleportation. More to portal system, but you know what I meant.

There was an artifact that did it (suddenly teleporting the hero off). And Gizzard/other head (or whatever the head guy's name is) does use portals (in the other realm though). And they used portals to surprise attack the 4 'brothers'.

It's just that it's not that easy, and they've got better use for their magic that they don't teleport you off for your vacation.I have to stand corrected and upgrade from Never to Rare And Expensive.

Eldan
2010-05-31, 11:33 AM
Discworld actually has teleportation, even intercontinental one. It's dangerous, though, since momentum and other physics problems seem to apply liberally and if you teleport to the wrong point at the wrong speed, you end up as a smear on the landscape. Oh, and you have to move something of approximately equal weight and volume the other way, which is why scrying helps a lot with teleportation.

Continuing: there doesn't seem to be any teleportation in the Dresden Files.

Elantris has Teleport, though, but that required a group of near-godlike mages.

Wonton
2010-05-31, 12:01 PM
I did always wonder at the wedding scene in the final book, why the deatheaters didn't show up with automatic weapons.

This is the set up for the best fanfic ever!!! :smallbiggrin:

Also, after reading this thread, I realized that I haven't really read any fantasy literature... maybe I could try this Belgariad thing.

As for on-topic discussion... some of those X stat to Y bonus feats are just ridiculous. Biggest gripe is with Zen Archery:

Player: I know that my character has 3 Dex, due to being a 70 year-old with Parkinson's and a history of alcoholism, but he's really wise, so he can shoot a bow really well, right?
DM: Hahahahaha, no.

Drascin
2010-05-31, 12:08 PM
This is the set up for the best fanfic ever!!! :smallbiggrin:

Really, if you do this fanfic, it should be reversed. Who is more likely to show up with a muggle gun, the pureblood supremacist zealots who consider muggles below cattle, or the heroes who count half a dozen muggleborns among their ranks?

PId6
2010-05-31, 12:20 PM
No way. Teleport completely changes the game. Prior to teleport, if you want to travel from one location to another, you had some barriers. Want to enter the borders of the enemy kingdom? Well, you have to sneak past a guard post or get into a fight. Being pursued by enemy trackers? Not anymore with this spell. Plenty of class features (Pass without trace, Track) are made virtually obsolete. Once the DM lets the players have Teleport, he has to let the enemies have it. And "If I give this to you, everyone's going to have it" is sort of a hallmark of what a DM might not allow.
Those things weren't big issues several levels ago. Flight and invisibility are available as early as 3rd level, and gets through/past guards/trackers easily, not to mention shorter-distance teleportation spells like Dimension Door. If you're going to have high magic in the setting (which is what a 9th level wizard represents if they're relatively common) you're going to have to build the world with high magic in mind.

An extremely xenophobic security-minded kingdom may Dimension Lock its lands so enemies can't Teleport in. A kingdom may use Astral Shards to redirect incoming Teleports to a borderpost or a special facility to record their names and purpose just as a regular gatehouse. Or, they may do nothing at all about them, because medieval security measures weren't all that great anyway. The world should realistically reflect the rules in effect, and people aware of the existence of such spells would realistically take measures against them.


There are a few fantasy worlds where Teleport exists, a bunch more where it exists only in special gates, and a whole lot where it would ruin the book. Just imagine how short Lord of the Rings would have been.
LotR is a terrible example of anything D&D. It's very low magic whereas the default settings of D&D are not, with very few wizards at all who can't even do all that much magic (compared to mid-high level D&D wizards). I agree that tacking on teleportation into any random fantasy world could likely mess it up; the world should be built with teleportation in mind in the first place, if wizards of 9th or higher level are fairly common (the same can be said of many wizard spells/tricks; the existence of Mount, for example, means that horse traders should be extremely careful about what they buy).


I'm not sure I really agree with you on a couple of points. The only "classic fantasy" that makes frequent use of Teleport (in my limited experience) is Harry Potter - which is, incidentally, a world where non-magic users have no ability to stand up to wizards.
The idea of teleportation has been in many fantasy stories, though in many forms. They usually come in the form of portals or objects that does the teleporting, but D&D usually only keeps the idea, rarely the form (Invisibility, for example, usually comes because of artifacts, not 2nd level spells). Even D&D's style of teleportation (no objects, just go) is seen in some books, like L. E. Modesitt Jr.'s Corean Chronicles books or Steven Brust's Dragaeran books (which does high magic very well, incidentally).

And in D&D, non-spellcasters already can't stand up to wizards; lack of Teleport wouldn't change this one bit.


A good DM can deal with teleport - but it takes a lot of work, especially if the PCs start using scrying as well. It really changes how the game works.
Which it should. If a certain strategy's available and the world's aware of it, people should realistically adapt to that strategy. If 9th level wizards are common in the world, the world should take Teleportation into account. There are many other DM-stompers at mid-high spell levels (Invisibility, Scrying, Overland Flight, Polymorph, Dimension Door, Phantom Steed, Rope Trick, etc) that it's not so much Teleport's problem as it is the wizard's problem. If the DM wants lower magic so as to not have to deal with things like that, he should either ban mid-high level spellcasters or play something like E6.

Wonton
2010-05-31, 12:26 PM
Really, if you do this fanfic, it should be reversed. Who is more likely to show up with a muggle gun, the pureblood supremacist zealots who consider muggles below cattle, or the heroes who count half a dozen muggleborns among their ranks?

I would like to bring forth the following evidence to support my claim :smalltongue::

http://s177.photobucket.com/albums/w204/WantonSoup/harrypotterg.png (http://fanboys-online.com/index.php?comic=216)

awa
2010-05-31, 12:27 PM
But the whole point is in this theoretical experiment teleport does not exist. A player is ASKING for the ability to bypass all travel based difficulties in a system where that was not previously possible in that particular manner.

alisbin
2010-05-31, 12:33 PM
dresdin files DOES have teleportation, its just done differently. a wizard can go into the nevernever and (assuming he knows the Way) come out just about anywhere else on the planet in minutes or maybe hours.

also
Odin created lightning gates in Changes that were apparently instant here to there style gates and were not limited by crossing the never never. so teleportation IS possible in the dresdin-verse, it just takes extremely large amounts of knowledge and power.

PId6
2010-05-31, 12:34 PM
But the whole point is in this theoretical experiment teleport does not exist. A player is ASKING for the ability to bypass all travel based difficulties in a system where that was not previously possible in that particular manner.
Yes, but he already has spells that can bypass most difficulties anyway (Invisibility, Fly, Dimension Door, etc). A DM that has built the setting to support those types of spells should be able to do the same for Teleport. It just needs realistic behavior with regard to its existence.

drengnikrafe
2010-05-31, 12:35 PM
The Bartimaeus Trilogy had some magic, in the sense that every wizard in it was a binder. I don't remember them having teleportation, off the top of my head.

Riffington
2010-05-31, 12:41 PM
Those things weren't big issues several levels ago. Flight and invisibility are available as early as 3rd level, and gets through/past guards/trackers easily
Sometimes, but not even close to as easily. There's a quantum leap between guarding one's airspace and "anyone can appear anywhere". Teleportation makes armies obsolete, makes travel a joke, indeed obliterates the distinction between "on an adventure" and "currently shopping". People ignore these ramifications, but they're logically inescapable: for the fraction of the gold it takes to guard a magic shop, you could instead offer free instant delivery to anywhere. "Hey, I'd like to order 15 dragon-slaying arrows to the dragon's lair, please".


An extremely xenophobic security-minded kingdom may Dimension Lock its lands so enemies can't Teleport in. A kingdom may use Astral Shards to redirect incoming Teleports to a borderpost or a special facility to record their names and purpose just as a regular gatehouse. Or, they may do nothing at all about them, because medieval security measures weren't all that great anyway. The world should realistically reflect the rules in effect, and people aware of the existence of such spells would realistically take measures against them.

High magic can but need not include teleportation magics. The fact that you name so many ways that people will need to modify their behavior based on the existence of teleportation magics demonstrates that it's a game-changer. And "game-changing" is exactly the sort of thing that a DM might well ban depending what kind of campaign she wants to run. It's either "broken" or a "valid strategy so powerful that everyone must explicitly deal with it" depending on the campaign.




LotR is a terrible example of anything D&D. It's very low magic
LotR is high-magic, and indeed pretty far on the high-magic end. Wizards create mighty artifacts far beyond the powers of fairy tales. Powerful beings beyond mortal ken, creating entire races of creatures to serve them. It's in fact *epic* magic.

The fact that 3.5 allows you to go higher-magic than that doesn't let you call LotR low-magic any more than the existence of wikipedia lets you call War and Peace a short story.

Boci
2010-05-31, 12:42 PM
Yes, but he already has spells that can bypass most difficulties anyway (Invisibility, Fly, Dimension Door, etc). A DM that has built the setting to support those types of spells should be able to do the same for Teleport. It just needs realistic behavior with regard to its existence.

Fly and invisibility have a short diration, still require time to get from one place to another, and still leaves you vulnerable to a few creatures. You cannot really compare the two.

awa
2010-05-31, 12:43 PM
the difference is in range dimension door is no wheres near the distance a teleport is.

Your telling me that the exact same precautions for preventing instantaneously traveling a few thousand feet at the very most is the same as one jumping hundreds of miles?

Someone with flight can be countered by other people with flight and invisibility can be countered with see invisibility. but the counter to teleport dimensional lock is a level 8 spell and only affects a small area.

Teleport is what make scry and die possible that combo right there in a world where no one else has that ability no sane dm would allow that.

2xMachina
2010-05-31, 12:48 PM
Really?

I don't seem to know of a lot of magic in LoTR.

There were only 5 wizards. Artifacts... the rings might qualify, but not much else. (The rings were made by Sauron, which can be considered as a lesser deity. Wizards also probably have a divine rank of 0 or so.) Else... not much magic items. There's Sting, a minor magic sword/dagger...

Also, the wizards don't cast much spells, nor have many selections... Heck, I can't recall more than 5 times spells were cast.

lsfreak
2010-05-31, 12:50 PM
LotR is high-magic, and indeed pretty far on the high-magic end. Wizards create mighty artifacts far beyond the powers of fairy tales. Powerful beings beyond mortal ken, creating entire races of creatures to serve them. It's in fact *epic* magic.

It's high-magic only for the 10 or so beings ever mentioned to have magic. Every times I've seen the term 'high magic,' it implies both power and widespread use.

Greenish
2010-05-31, 12:53 PM
There were only 5 wizards. Artifacts... the rings might qualify, but not much else. (The rings were made by Sauron, which can be considered as a lesser deity. Wizards also probably have a divine rank of 0 or so.) Else... not much magic items. There's Sting, a minor magic sword/dagger...

Also, the wizards don't cast much spells, nor have many selections... Heck, I can't recall more than 5 times spells were cast.Only one ring (the one ring :smallwink:) was made by Sauron, rest were made by the quasi-deific elves. Sting was made by the same elves, and the men of Atlantis whatever made the daggers the rest of the hobbits had (which also were mildly magic).

And "wizards" in LotR, like you pointed out, are a race, not an occupation.


[Edit]: Lord of the Rings is high fantasy, not high magic. Silmarillion could be argued to be mid-level magic.

lesser_minion
2010-05-31, 12:54 PM
Númenor. It was Númenor.

Frozen_Feet
2010-05-31, 12:55 PM
LotR is high-magic, and indeed pretty far on the high-magic end. Wizards create mighty artifacts far beyond the powers of fairy tales. Powerful beings beyond mortal ken, creating entire races of creatures to serve them. It's in fact *epic* magic.

The fact that 3.5 allows you to go higher-magic than that doesn't let you call LotR low-magic any more than the existence of wikipedia lets you call War and Peace a short story.

Correction: Silmarillion has Epic Magic. LotR has, at best, fireballs and Control Weather. Even the uber-artifact of doom is only seen replicating a 2nd level spell. Middle-Earth, as a whole, is different from just the 3rd age LotR describes ending; by that time, most magic had already faded away.

Greenish
2010-05-31, 12:56 PM
Numenor. It was Numenor, possibly with an accent somewhere though.Ah yes, thank you. The accent was on "u", I seem to recall.

lord_khaine
2010-05-31, 12:59 PM
dresdin files DOES have teleportation, its just done differently. a wizard can go into the nevernever and (assuming he knows the Way) come out just about anywhere else on the planet in minutes or maybe hours.

No, its nowhere near the same, the wizard first have to find the right place to cross over, then walk some distance in the Newernewer, before stepping out somewhere that is hopefully not to far away from where he wants to go.

As for the Odin thing, we newer get explained what it actualy is he does there, for all we know it might be his way of entering the newernewer.

Boci
2010-05-31, 01:00 PM
Even the uber-artifact of doom is only seen replicating a 2nd level spell.

To be fair, I think it was improved invisibility and it also protected the bearer from ageing, but overall point taken.

Riffington
2010-05-31, 01:00 PM
It's high-magic only for the 10 or so beings ever mentioned to have magic. Every times I've seen the term 'high magic,' it implies both power and widespread use.

Every elf has magic; some more than others. Many of the dwarves did as well. Plenty of humans who were not wizards had magics, just look at Aragorn. Look at the ghosts, the witch-kings, the men of Arnor, the Nazgul, the river deity/nymphs, the Dunedain... you practically have to look at cannon fodder to find men without wizardry.

awa
2010-05-31, 01:00 PM
heck even Gandalf the Grey had to hide in a tree when chased by goblins and wargs and needed to be rescued when the goblins tried to burn the tree he was hiding in. A level 5 wizard would have been better equipped to escape that.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-31, 01:00 PM
Yeah,Dresdenverse doesn't really teleport, that's more of a Shadow Walk/Planeshift analogue.


I'm trying to think if Warhammer Fantasy exhibits teleportation or not.

lesser_minion
2010-05-31, 01:01 PM
Correction: Silmarillion has Epic Magic. LotR has, at best, fireballs and Control Weather. Even the uber-artifact of doom is only seen replicating a 2nd level spell. Middle-Earth, as a whole, is different from just the 3rd age LotR describes ending; by that time, most magic had already faded away.

The ring didn't place any restrictions on the invisibility, so it was a 4th level spell. It also seems pretty clear that it had a degree of influence over the other rings, including at least the ability to see them even if they were hidden by other means.

The ring also provided the 'juice' for all of the other rings, if I recall correctly, and the influence of the One Ring was responsible in a very significant way for the ringwraiths as well.

In general, it seems that the magic was more subtle than D&D magic, not 'less present'.

Remember the first rule of debating fantasy literature - fantasy literature is generally not written with D&D rules or conventions in mind.

2xMachina
2010-05-31, 01:04 PM
Correction: Silmarillion has Epic Magic. LotR has, at best, fireballs and Control Weather. Even the uber-artifact of doom is only seen replicating a 2nd level spell. Middle-Earth, as a whole, is different from just the 3rd age LotR describes ending; by that time, most magic had already faded away.

Huh, the Silmarillion has a OverDeity introduced, lots of Greater Deity running around. Then a intermediate/lesser deity married an elf.

And yeah, sorry, I forgot about the other rings' maker.

Il_Vec
2010-05-31, 01:06 PM
Remember the first rule of debating fantasy literature - D&D is generally not written with D&D rules or conventions in mind.

Fixed that for you.

PId6
2010-05-31, 01:12 PM
Sometimes, but not even close to as easily. There's a quantum leap between guarding one's airspace and "anyone can appear anywhere". Teleportation makes armies obsolete, makes travel a joke, indeed obliterates the distinction between "on an adventure" and "currently shopping". People ignore these ramifications, but they're logically inescapable: for the fraction of the gold it takes to guard a magic shop, you could instead offer free instant delivery to anywhere. "Hey, I'd like to order 15 dragon-slaying arrows to the dragon's lair, please".
Wizards make armies obsolete. Guess how hard it is to beat a huge army of 1st level warriors if you have Cloudkill or Symbol of Insanity?

And as I've said, high magic. It has ramifications, such as that one. However, if 9th+ level wizards are rarer in the setting, instant delivery won't be available, though at the same time any PC wizard 9s will likely be big fish in a small pond.


High magic can but need not include teleportation magics. The fact that you name so many ways that people will need to modify their behavior based on the existence of teleportation magics demonstrates that it's a game-changer. And "game-changing" is exactly the sort of thing that a DM might well ban depending what kind of campaign she wants to run. It's either "broken" or a "valid strategy so powerful that everyone must explicitly deal with it" depending on the campaign.
It doesn't necessarily have to be game-changing. There isn't that much difference between spells like Wind Walk/Shadow Walk/Dimension Door and Teleport. But even if it did change certain things, I'm positing that a good DM can take it into account in the world and wouldn't dismiss it solely on that ground, especially when similar things are available already.


LotR is high-magic, and indeed pretty far on the high-magic end. Wizards create mighty artifacts far beyond the powers of fairy tales. Powerful beings beyond mortal ken, creating entire races of creatures to serve them. It's in fact *epic* magic.

The fact that 3.5 allows you to go higher-magic than that doesn't let you call LotR low-magic any more than the existence of wikipedia lets you call War and Peace a short story.
I think our definitions of "high-magic" are extremely dissimilar then. Yes, artifacts/outsiders exists in the setting, but overall the effect of magic on the world and on everyday life is minimal. High magic should do something drastic to change the world from the typical image of historical peoples, and not just in causing disasters/wars, but in changing how communications, transportation, and warfare works.

A world like Eberron's, for example, where wizards/artificers build lightning trains and airships for efficient transportation. A world like Steven Brust's Dragaera where teleportation, healing, and psychic communication makes many medieval-era problems irrelevant. A world even like Harry Potter's, which uses magic to do/solve things that even modern technology cannot (the only way a modern setting can be considered high magic). In the same way that I wouldn't consider a world "high technology" if there's supposedly two spaceships orbiting the world made from long long ago, and everyone's now a dirt farmer, I wouldn't consider a setting "high magic" just because it has a few plot artifacts and evil wizards, unless magic severely changes something about the mundane world.


Fly and invisibility have a short diration, still require time to get from one place to another, and still leaves you vulnerable to a few creatures. You cannot really compare the two.
Overland Flight has long duration, while Invisibility lasts long enough for most of what you need (getting past a guard post, for example). You're still vulnerable to many monsters, but the majority of mundane humanoids stand no chance against these spells. Furthermore, there isn't much difference between Teleport and spells like Shadow Walk and Wind Walk.

Amphetryon
2010-05-31, 01:15 PM
And "If I give this to you, everyone's going to have it" is sort of a hallmark of what a DM might not allow.Wait, what? No, seriously, what?

That particular sentiment (If I give this to you, everyone's going to have it) applies to almost anything available in D&D. "If I give you longbows, everyone's going to have them.... If I give you horses, horses will be available to the enemy.... If you get waterskins, by golly, the enemy will also have waterskins."

Surely you can't mean to imply that any commodity that the PCs might find useful should be banned on the basis that both PCs and NPCs could make use of it? :smallconfused:

Riffington
2010-05-31, 01:21 PM
Wait, what? No, seriously, what?

That particular sentiment (If I give this to you, everyone's going to have it) applies to almost anything available in D&D. "If I give you longbows, everyone's going to have them.... If I give you horses, horses will be available to the enemy.... If you get waterskins, by golly, the enemy will also have waterskins."

Surely you can't mean to imply that any commodity that the PCs might find useful should be banned on the basis that both PCs and NPCs could make use of it? :smallconfused:

Could is different than would.
If I invent a new type of longbow that costs 10gp more and weighs 1/3 less than a regular longbow, sure it may become *available* to everyone. But is everyone going to choose it? Probably not. People will still pick composite longbows and crossbows and javelins like they used to.
If I invent a new type of longbow that costs 10gp more and does d12 damage and has an extra 50% range increment, is everyone going to choose it? Yes - suddenly that's a clear choice for all kinds of regiments.

A commodity that is going to *nearly-inevitably* desired by everyone is in a different class than a commodity that a few people might plausibly desire.



Wizards make armies obsolete. Guess how hard it is to beat a huge army of 1st level warriors if you have Cloudkill or Symbol of Insanity?
Makes armies of 1st level warriors obsolete, anyway. But if I had some 9th level characters available to me, should I make them majors in my army or put them into an independent strike force... well, the answer to that changes tremendously if teleport exists.


especially when similar things are available already
I think it would be pretty strange to ban teleport but permit every other form of apportation magic (Shadow Walk). Permitting flying or windwalking without permitting apportation is reasonable. Similarly, permitting short-range apportation without permitting long-range is reasonable.



I think our definitions of "high-magic" are extremely dissimilar then.
Mine would be "would you assume a legendary hero uses or fights magic?"

2xMachina
2010-05-31, 01:23 PM
Huh, can't find the source of your quote.

For me, I read it as a Gentleman's agreement. If you want to be a Necropolitan Tainted Scholar, expect Necropolitan Tainted Scholar NPCs against you. Do you want to go ahead?

EDIT: Scratch that, misread.

Brendan
2010-05-31, 01:50 PM
well, in the bartamaeus trilogy, you could summon a demon in one place, release it, and it let it be summoned somewhere else, I guess.

Greenish
2010-05-31, 01:55 PM
Mine would be "would you assume a legendary hero uses or fights magic?"Mine would be when the wealthy merchant regularly hires a magician or two for mundane purposes.

Gametime
2010-05-31, 02:14 PM
Only one ring (the one ring :smallwink:) was made by Sauron, rest were made by the quasi-deific elves. Sting was made by the same elves, and the men of Atlantis whatever made the daggers the rest of the hobbits had (which also were mildly magic).

And "wizards" in LotR, like you pointed out, are a race, not an occupation.


[Edit]: Lord of the Rings is high fantasy, not high magic. Silmarillion could be argued to be mid-level magic.

Nitpick: The Seven and Nine Rings (given to dwarves and humans, respectively) were forged by the elves with Sauron's direct assistance. The One ring was forged by Sauron alone. The Three Rings were forged by the elves alone. That's why only the Three Rings are safe to use - the Seven and Nine are subject to Sauron's power, although not as directly as the One Ring.

Anyway, as has been pointed out, Middle-Earth is in undergoing its Gotterdammerung (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Gotterdammerung) when the main books take place. That's why the elves are leaving and so forth. Even during the Silmarillion, it's not really comparable to D&D magic; all the magic is basically divine in origin, for one thing, and the "wizards" (spoiler alert!) are basically angels.

Another factor, though, is that D&D and most other fantasy games are much more magical than even the most magical book setting. The primary reason for this is that a protagonist in a book series might have to cast dozens of important spells; a D&D character will have to cast hundreds. A protagonist might find two or three important magical items; a D&D character is assumed to use several at any given time. Reading about someone's +3 sword isn't exactly gripping literature*, but in D&D it's a necessity to compete.

Comparing any non-game media to a fantasy game is bound to make the game look more fantastic, simply because games, by their nature, usually require more prevalence of magical items and diversity of spells than your average fantasy book or movie setting.

*Unless that "+3 sword" is a euphemism, but you get what I mean.

Eorran
2010-05-31, 02:20 PM
PId6:

I can't argue that Wizards have a huge bag of tricks, and simply removing teleport / teleport without error doesn't cut into their capabilities much at all. I'll agree that in a world like Eberron, or a Tippyverse extreme, it can blend well with the setting.

However, my point is the generic, pseudomedieval D&D setting doesn't fit well with high magic. Teleport is a symptom of the problem. Most of the fantasy literature I've read involves the heroes going on a quest to do something. Usually part of the quest involves travel, and making travel cost nothing in terms of time, money, or effort hurts the setting, even if it's fine within the ruleset.

Greenish
2010-05-31, 02:24 PM
the generic, pseudomedieval D&D setting doesn't fit well with D&D magic.Fixed that for you.

Eldan
2010-05-31, 02:31 PM
I'm trying to think if Warhammer Fantasy exhibits teleportation or not.

A dimension door analogue, at least: the Skaven Lore of Doom's weakest spell can teleport any character to any point on the battlefield. Which, in larger games, could well be more than a hundred inches. If a model is about 2 inches high, that's not bad.

Iamyourking
2010-05-31, 02:36 PM
There's also a Wind Walk analog, although it's not actually avaliable in game.

Delcan
2010-05-31, 02:54 PM
Adding to the instances of teleportation used in high-magic worlds: The multiple Valdemar series have mages use Gates, which are made from one bounded space to another, and you have to be familiar with the origin point and destination. They're also extremely taxing on the caster. In the "prehistory" of the world, the Archmages could create self-standing portals from one place to another, but doing so was effectively epic magic. In the modern era, it's high-level magic, causes Con damage, and generally isn't done except in emergency or if you're crazy powerful.

And after the mage storms, Gates aren't done unless the caster is just plain crazy, thanks to magic having gone all kerflopted.

I have to agree - Teleport as written feels cheaty, and worse, is narratively uninteresting.

lesser_minion
2010-05-31, 03:11 PM
I'm trying to think if Warhammer Fantasy exhibits teleportation or not.

It used to, but not any more - at least, not in any long-distance form.

These days, there are ways to get around the battlefield quickly, but they still take a quite different form - a lot of them are of the form "make a flying move", if I recall correctly.

WHFRP2 does have the Earth Gate spell, but that was only usable out to about 50m or so, and was more like a tree stride (except with dirt) than anything else.

I believe the fluff has one instance of High Magic being used to teleport, and with a small army as well. However, that's High Magic for you.

There's also an instance of the Slann weaving some unexplained enchantment to take an army a ridiculous distance in a ridiculously short time - however, that might not have been teleportation.

PId6
2010-05-31, 04:25 PM
However, my point is the generic, pseudomedieval D&D setting doesn't fit well with high magic. Teleport is a symptom of the problem. Most of the fantasy literature I've read involves the heroes going on a quest to do something. Usually part of the quest involves travel, and making travel cost nothing in terms of time, money, or effort hurts the setting, even if it's fine within the ruleset.
That's kind of a problem with 3.5 in general. Taken to its logical extreme, magic in D&D inevitably leads to Tippyverse-esque worlds as the amount and level of spellcasters go up (probably not quite so extreme as Tippyverse, but it would follow along similar lines). The pseudo-medieval society can't really exist logically if there are spellcasters in any significant number.

At higher levels, and especially if you have spellcasters in the party, you can't really expect PCs to follow along linear "go to Mt. Doom on foot" type quests. That type of quest works best (or at all) in low-magic or low-level games (E6 comes to mind here). At mid to high levels, PCs become far more in control of their destinies than the typical fantasy hero found in novels, and you can't really expect linear paths to work. With more open ended quests with multiple ways and steps to solve things, it becomes much more engaging and challenging for these PCs. Present them with the linear path, however, and it's entirely your fault when the party wizard goes: "Standard action Teleport to Mt. Doom, free action drop the ring, swift action Quickened Rapid Summon Monster IV to make the Celestial Giant Eagle appear."

FatR
2010-05-31, 04:58 PM
Sometimes, but not even close to as easily. There's a quantum leap between guarding one's airspace and "anyone can appear anywhere". Teleportation makes armies obsolete, makes travel a joke, indeed obliterates the distinction between "on an adventure" and "currently shopping". People ignore these ramifications, but they're logically inescapable: for the fraction of the gold it takes to guard a magic shop, you could instead offer free instant delivery to anywhere. "Hey, I'd like to order 15 dragon-slaying arrows to the dragon's lair, please".
Teleport doesn't do that. You don't use spells that have at least 1% chance of freaking killing you for trivial tasks. Teleport Without Error does. And by 13th level, you don't and shouldn't care about trivial stuff, like armies or mooks or travelling from place to place. Teleport can be very problematic, depending on sources allowed, but for the reasons you mention.

Lapak
2010-05-31, 05:47 PM
Teleportation almost never comes as easily in fiction as it does in D&D, and it does have world-changing effects. The poster earlier who mentioned Brust as an example where it was prominent made a good point - but at the same time, it's a setting that is vastly, vastly different from the default expectations of D&D. (And magic in it has significant weaknesses in it that D&D doesn't, I'd hasten to add; most noticeable is how very, very difficult it is to make yourself safe from mundane harm.)

Dilb
2010-05-31, 05:53 PM
Teleport doesn't do that. You don't use spells that have at least 1% chance of freaking killing you for trivial tasks. Teleport Without Error does. And by 13th level, you don't and shouldn't care about trivial stuff, like armies or mooks or travelling from place to place. Teleport can be very problematic, depending on sources allowed, but for the reasons you mention.

Teleport can't kill you if you are familiar with the destination, at worst it drops you off somewhere similar looking. If you've only seen the destination once, it's a 3% chance to take 1d10 damage.

Even if you try to teleport to a place that doesn't exist, you take less than 10 damage on average. Unless you have several HP penalties, there no practical risk of death.

PId6
2010-05-31, 06:05 PM
Teleportation almost never comes as easily in fiction as it does in D&D, and it does have world-changing effects.
That's quite true, but the same can be said of most other types of magic. Casting Invisibility requires no ring or cloak. Casting Fly doesn't require a carpet or even all that much effort. Resurrection likewise doesn't happen nearly as easily in most fantasy worlds as it does in D&D. Codifying things into the game generally has a side effect of making it easier to use and less special at the same time.

Il_Vec
2010-05-31, 06:30 PM
On-Topic:
It may not strike you as ovepowered, but I could see myself having this dialog as the DM:

Player: Hey! I want to make this feat for my blaster elemental savant...
Dm: Proceed.
Player: It's called Searing spell.
Dm: And...?
Player: It makes my spell so hot that they can burn creatures Immune to fire!
Dm: How?!?!

Ormur
2010-05-31, 07:20 PM
The only spell I specifically nerfed in my campaign was teleport. I made it portal based so you'd have to teleport between fixed locations you had already designated. It means you can still travel incredible distances but only to places you've already been to, allowing me to still present the players with actual journeys and quests.

I play a wizard in one campaign and we've only seen a handful of places because we just teleport to some plot place and back to one of our bases. It's okay because the storyline is so epic but I wouldn't have minded travelling a bit and getting to know the world we're so busy trying to save. Our day usually goes like this, wake up, prepare spells, decide to teleport into the dragon's lair, kill him, pop back, talk to the king, buy scrolls, figure out our next targer etc.

Yeah orbs, I hate that they're conjurations. I'd have allowed them as evocations.

Frozen_Feet
2010-05-31, 07:24 PM
Pokemon can be seen as an Utopic Tippyverse. Long version here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152973)

Zuki
2010-05-31, 07:38 PM
I don't think he's talking about the Discworld Night Watch, since it's a 'series' and he mentions airplanes.

Night Watch is an urban fantasy trillogy, right? Night Watch, Day Watch,...Twilight Watch?

I need to read those.

Discworld's worth reading anyways, though. Don't think it has any teleportation to my immediate recall.

Greenish
2010-05-31, 07:43 PM
Discworld's worth reading anyways, though. Don't think it has any teleportation to my immediate recall.It's possible, but (like most all magic in Discworld) not really worth bothering.

tyckspoon
2010-05-31, 07:59 PM
It's possible, but (like most all magic in Discworld) not really worth bothering.

Quite. You know those occasional threads about whether or not Teleport respects conservation of momentum? Well, the answer is a definite yes in Discworld. Which means that any attempt at teleportation has to be preceded by several days worth of math to figure out when, where, and how you can teleport your target in such a way that he will arrive (A) still actually ON the Disc and (B) in roughly his own shape, instead of as a dopplering scream and a rather messy smear.

Arakune
2010-05-31, 08:01 PM
PC: I want to summon some monsters.
DM: So? There is a spell for that.
PC: Yeah, but it only lasts for a while. And it hardly provides utility or some time for real complex servitude, like body guard duties or spying or secondary casting or body guard when our fighter dies. AGAIN.
DM: Ok, what do you have in mind?
PC: Maybe one spell that can summon something and create an contract with some outsider?
DM: That's too easy, what if he doesn't want to?
PC: Maybe put a Will save? And make it need some spells additional spells for protection if necessary?
DM: But a minion for that long? For free? No way!
PC: Uhm, maybe make us do an opposed charisma check? And if I pay it well it become easier or if I don't want to pay or want to give a crappy deal it becomes next to impossible?
DM: I'm listening...

Flickerdart
2010-05-31, 08:02 PM
Night Watch is an urban fantasy trillogy, right? Night Watch, Day Watch,...Twilight Watch?

I need to read those.

Discworld's worth reading anyways, though. Don't think it has any teleportation to my immediate recall.
Night Watch, Day Watch, Twilight Watch and Final Watch. And Face of the Dark Palmira is set in the same universe, I think.

Calintares
2010-05-31, 09:54 PM
Natural Spell

PId6
2010-05-31, 10:01 PM
Natural Spell Druid
Fixed it for you! :smallwink:

Ravens_cry
2010-05-31, 10:02 PM
Quite. You know those occasional threads about whether or not Teleport respects conservation of momentum? Well, the answer is a definite yes in Discworld. Which means that any attempt at teleportation has to be preceded by several days worth of math to figure out when, where, and how you can teleport your target in such a way that he will arrive (A) still actually ON the Disc and (B) in roughly his own shape, instead of as a dopplering scream and a rather messy smear.
It also puts paid to a delightfully large quantity of Gynofelis sapiens.
Catgirls

Tavar
2010-05-31, 10:21 PM
I believe Jack Vance had Teleport in The Dying Earth, which is probably why DnD has it, that series being the basis for Dungeon and Dragons primary spellcasting system.

RandomLunatic
2010-05-31, 11:29 PM
Blessed By Tem-Et-Nu (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Blessed_By_Tem-Et-Nu)

I mean, imagine how that would go.

:elan: Have I got an idea for a feat!

:roy: Let's hear it.

:elan: Alright, you know how my character is totally devoted to a minor diety from a splatbook a lot of people do not have? Well, to reward his service, suppose he gets blessed so hippopotamuses... hippopotami? Can't attack him. Unless they are magically controlled, of course.

:roy: Uh-huh

:elan: And it adds cleric to my list of favored classes.

:roy: We don't actually use favored class penalties.

:elan: Oh, right. Well, what if... oh! I got it! I get a small bonus to AC against chaotic enemies.

:roy: ^.~

:elan: That also have the fire subtype?

:roy: >.<

:elan: And you radiate an aura of LAW! And, uh, to balance it, I supose that if I annoy my god enough, I could spontaenously take a small amount of damage and lose the feat.

:roy: *1d4 facepalm damage*

Ravens_cry
2010-05-31, 11:52 PM
You missed the best part. You can Rebuke and Command Hippopotamuses
You Can REBUKE and COMMAND Hippotamuses!
*mind blown with glee*

Coidzor
2010-05-31, 11:54 PM
Anyone ever actually stat those out officially?

ninjaneer003
2010-06-01, 12:00 AM
Anyone ever actually stat those out officially?

I don't know but if anyone did plz PM me. I've always wanted to have my bard character to have one to ride. Hippos are deadly but so cute!

awa
2010-06-01, 12:00 AM
i know they have dire hippos so they probably have regular ones to

Krüsher
2010-06-01, 12:49 AM
Okay, I know this has been brought up many many times but...Shivering Touch? REALLY? God its so insane! Altho I guess if something has a low enough dexterity to be hit by your touch attack...then it's prolly better off dead

Alleran
2010-06-01, 12:54 AM
A dimension door analogue, at least: the Skaven Lore of Doom's weakest spell can teleport any character to any point on the battlefield. Which, in larger games, could well be more than a hundred inches. If a model is about 2 inches high, that's not bad.
Warhammer Fantasy has several instances of teleportation besides that - in the WHFRP game, there are at least two spells that allow it. One is a Lesser Magic (learnable by anybody, priest, wizard, whatever), and allows you about 5 or 10 feet per point in your Magic stat. The other is in the "Lore of Life" and IIRC allows teleportation to any place within LOS that has solid ground (and you have to be touching the dirt when you start, too). The Lesser Magic version also has the limitation where you have a 10% chance each time you cast the spell of being lost in the Warp (read: Hell) forever, and lose your character as a result. Most magical travel in the WHFB world involves moving through the Warp when you teleport, which is incredibly dangerous.

There are also portals known as the Paths of the Old Ones, which can take you anywhere you want to go in a fraction of the time it would actually take, but those also rely on the Warp, and because of the corruption of Chaos they are highly dangerous methods of travel in the "present day" WH world. Oh, and the Athel Loren forest has innate power that warps reality (magic-saturated areas tend to exhibit such things, since magic comes from the Warp and is by its very nature nasty and breaks material and physical laws), allowing the use of "back paths" within it to other forests in the WH world, as well as being able to cover great distances very quickly (since the back paths more or less screw with space-time).

Other than that, Malekith (the Witch King of the Dark Elves) was able to use dark magic to hurl his soul into the Warp and thus escape death (the Warp being infinite possibility, he just willed himself a new body while there and popped back up in his capital city a little while later out the "other end" of his escape route), but as noted, that's very dangerous, and it's implied that he suffered some sort of psychological damage as a result (though he was already messed up in the first place, to be honest).

It's said outright that the High Magic employed by the High Elves and Slann can do awesome magical effects undreamed of by players, but because those effects can't be achieved by players (a High Elf mage at the absolute peak of magical power you can reach in the RPG is considered to have just completed his apprenticeship and is just now ready to "retire" as a character to the Tower of Hoeth on Ulthuan and begin learning real magic, and humans on that level are at the highest they can possibly get) they're not available unless you houserule High Magic in (which isn't recommended, because it is supposed to be game breaking by its very nature). Teleportation (long range, too) has been exhibited by practitioners of High Magic, but a lot of the time they just use more conventional means of travel, because it becomes exponentially more difficult as the number of people you want to bring with you increases.

EDIT: As a reference to the Midkemia world, all Black-Robe Tsurani Great Ones can teleport, but only to predetermined patterns. These can be anything, usually a mosaic-tiled floor, but could also be, say, the kitchen where the main character grew up (this example is used explicitly in the books). As long as the individual knows the area (which takes maybe an hour or so to fix it in their mind, after which it's easy to do whenever you want with purely an act of willing yourself there), they can do it. Teleporting to places you have rarely ever seen (or only had described to you) is much, much harder - Pug comments at one point that while he has learned how to do it, it takes almost all his concentration to work, while his wife Miranda (and son Magnus) has a natural talent for it that lets them pull it off easily. The Tsurani also have devices that allow teleportation, so that wizards don't have to fix places in their mind and waste their own strength teleporting around. There are also rifts, but those are more like Gate spells than teleportation.

Draz74
2010-06-01, 12:59 AM
You missed the best part. You can Rebuke and Command Hippopotamuses
You Can REBUKE and COMMAND Hippotamuses!
*mind blown with glee*

No, the best part is how, instead of taking "2d10" damage or whatever, you take "damage as if bitten by a hippopotamus." Whoever wrote that line ... I want them to write more splats. :smallbiggrin:

2xMachina
2010-06-01, 01:01 AM
You missed the best part. You can Rebuke and Command Hippopotamuses
You Can REBUKE and COMMAND Hippotamuses!
*mind blown with glee*

Also, if you ever displease your god, you get bitten by a hippo.

edit:Ah, ninja