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Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 12:58 AM
I decided to block a number of spells from the Wizard's spellbook in my campaign largely for fluff-related reasons (in this campaign the gods hate arcane spellcasters with a passion and won't allow them to touch any of their stuff), and I thought I'd toss the list up to see how badly I've hurt the wizard.

Due to my selection of books, the spells listed are only from Core and Libris Mortis (I also have Draconomicon, but since I haven't worked dragons into the setting yet I've just nixed that book entirely for now). Here are the criteria for what spells were banned:


No spells that relate to the undead.
No spells that relate to the planes.
No spells that relate to souls.
No spells that relate to alignment.
No spells that relate to outsiders.


Mordekainen's Disjunction was banned on top of this because nothing can alter the function of artifacts in this setting except for the creator of the artifact and direct divine intervention (often one and the same).

Necrotic Termination was banned because the destruction of the soul is impossible in this setting. Also, it relates to the soul, so that applies as well.

Time Stop was banned because at least in this setting, time doesn't actually exist. There is only the present. Also because it's a stupidly powerful spell.

Now, here's the list of banned spells. Please let me know if either a) this cripples the Wizard to the point of not being worth playing or b) I missed a spell from Core or Libris Mortis that fit the criteria for banned spells.


Animate Dead
Astral Projection
Awaken Undead
Banishment
Blink
Clone
Command Undead
Contact Other Plane
Control Undead
Create Undead
Create Greater Undead
Dimension Door
Dimensional Lock
Dismissal
Disrupt Undead
Ethreal Jaunt
Ethrealness
Gate
Halt Undead
Haunt Shift
Incorporeal Enhancement
Incorporeal Nova
Kiss Of The Vampire
Magic Circle Against Alignment
Mordekainen's Disjunction
Necrotic Burst
Necrotic Termination
Plague of Undead
Lesser Planar Binding
Planar Binding
Greater Planar Binding
Plane Shift
Protection From Alignment
Soul Bind
Spawn Screen
Summon Monster Line
Summon Undead Line
Teleport
Greater Teleport
Teleport Object
Teleportation Circle
Time Stop
Trap The Soul
Undeath To Death
Veil Of Undeath

chiasaur11
2010-05-30, 01:01 AM
I'm pretty sure the wizard is still a bit overpowered, never fear.

Just a bit... less.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-30, 01:02 AM
Yes, he's still not worthless.

He's just worth...less...

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 01:11 AM
Edited with the augmented Summon Monster Line.

Pluto
2010-05-30, 01:13 AM
No Faustian pacts makes me sad, but the Wizard's class features still fill a good number of books.

Hendel
2010-05-30, 01:24 AM
The wizard stills looks good and is powerful. I think this is fine, especially if you want to keep them out of the planes and away from necromancy in relation to undead.

As for missing spells, I am assuming that Greater Plane Shift is out since Plane Shift is out. Did you take these off other lists, such as for clerics or psions (the ones that have analogous powers)?

mucat
2010-05-30, 01:31 AM
Wizards have always been among the strongest core classes. Removing a few spells from their repertoire does not even begin to cripple them. (In fact, if your players are prone to cheesy rules abuse, then you'll want to remove or heavily nerf other spells as well, such as the polymorph line.)

As a player who really enjoys wizards from a roleplaying standpoint, I like it when a DM reins in their power. It makes for greater tactical challenges, rather than having to break immersion and think "Jake could do A, but it would end the encounter without letting other characters shine, so for inexplicable reasons he'll take (less effective) option B instead."

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 01:32 AM
The wizard stills looks good and is powerful. I think this is fine, especially if you want to keep them out of the planes and away from necromancy in relation to undead.

As for missing spells, I am assuming that Greater Plane Shift is out since Plane Shift is out. Did you take these off other lists, such as for clerics or psions (the ones that have analogous powers)?I'm only using Core and Libris Mortis at the moment. Greater Plane Shift doesn't seem to be in either, and I KNOW Psions aren't core.

And no, Clerics are not limited in this regard, as they DON'T royally piss of the gods. The only things currently on their banned list (mostly because I haven't given the Divine spell lists a good hard look yet) are Necrotic Termination and the Summon Undead Line. The former because of the reasons stated in the OP, and Summon Undead Line because the bodies gotta come from somewhere, natch. (Similarly I rule that with Summon Nature's Ally that if the animal specified doesn't live in that environment, nothing happens.)


As a player who really enjoys wizards from a roleplaying standpoint, I like it when a DM reins in their power. It makes for greater tactical challenges, rather than having to break immersion and think "Jake could do A, but it would end the encounter without letting other characters shine, so for inexplicable reasons he'll take (less effective) option B instead."

If you approve of such actions, keep in mind that this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152614) is still in effect on top of the barred spells.

(Which reminds me, I need to post the Divine version of that...)

Curmudgeon
2010-05-30, 02:00 AM
This does very little to a Wizard's power, really. It's similar to, but less than, the loss of a single school of magic.

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 02:20 AM
Hrm. It's just that the majority of the cheese that I've heard in regards to wizards generally involves Gate, Contact Other Plane or Mordekainen's Disjunction somehow.

Thespianus
2010-05-30, 02:25 AM
A Wizard without cheese is still a Wizard.

Especially if the same cheese is also removed from the other full casters' spell lists.

Draz74
2010-05-30, 02:31 AM
Hrm. It's just that the majority of the cheese that I've heard in regards to wizards generally involves Gate, Contact Other Plane or Mordekainen's Disjunction somehow.

Then I guess you haven't read enough threads about Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, Celerity, or Shivering Touch yet. :smallwink:

Chrono22
2010-05-30, 02:32 AM
Rather than banning/nerfing specific spells, you could try pathfinderizing/4eizing spell effects.
Some of the big problems with spells is that:
1. They scale with level, when other class features do not.
2. Spells that last longer than one round (such as slow) don't typically allow new saves to break free of their effects.
3. They target non-ac defenses that are difficult to raise outside of spurious multiclassing.
4. They have much wider reaching implications (scope) than other class features.
5. They can duplicate entire class features, or nullify them, or render them obsolete.
6. The game itself has alot of buried rules that implicitly or explicitly point to the fact that "magic > mundane". This depiction of magic, before anything else, is really what causes magic to be broken and is what must be expunged before you can balance magic.

There are some ways to fix these problems. Lower the scope of spells; *prepares to be shouted down* don't let them scale with level. Make fireball, for example, deal a fixed amount of less damage in a smaller area. Don't let spells like fabricate, gate, teleport, or the like into play without adding in things like higher experience or material costs. Like in 4e, allow a character to choose the highest of two abilities to apply to a save. Allow a character a new save each round to break free of a spell effect. Don't allow spells that duplicate class features or grant untyped bonuses. Change spells that they all include two of these three: a save, spell resistance, and/or and attack roll. When it comes up, fix class features (such as sneak attack, so that you can sneak attack opponents with concealment). Allow the Tome of Battle, and have classes' initiator level equal their base attack bonus.

I could say more, but to full on fix 3.5's magic system would require a total overhaul. These suggestions go a long way.

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 02:39 AM
Then I guess you haven't read enough threads about Alter Self, Polymorph, Polymorph Any Object, Shapechange, Celerity, or Shivering Touch yet. :smallwink:

The shapeshifting family is a bit of a problem, yeah, but I don't have much of a fluff-related reason to get rid of them right now. As for Celerity, I've never even heard of it (a cursory glance through by book says it isn't Core and by extension not my problem) and Shivering Touch is... also not Core, ergo, not my problem.

Kaiyanwang
2010-05-30, 04:19 AM
FYI, Celerity is PHII and Shivering Touch is Frostburn.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-30, 09:07 AM
Overhauling the 3.5 Dungeons & Dragons' magic & martial system is going to take a massive amount of effort, mostly due to what was described above.

You'd be better off widening your approach to non-core, and restricting your game to the desired two adjacent tiers (I like 2 & 3, although 3 & 4 is also okay), and playing with people who understand and apply optimization, but go in for minimum amounts of cheese.

Really, the core rulebooks are far and away THE most wildly unbalanced source for any material you could think of, containing three of the most insanely overpowering base classes in the game (meaning the cleric, druid, and wizard), combined with several of the weakest (fighter and monk, especially). We've got 3 top tier 1s, a severely unpredictably powerful tier 2 (a sorcerer's power fluctuates more wildly than most, either being virtually useless or OMGWTFBBQ, depending on build and spell loadout), 1 tier 3 (bard), 3 tier 4s (barbarian, ranger, and rogue - which straddles the line between tiers 3 and 4 rather uncomfortably), 1 middling tier 5 (paladin) 1 weak tier 5 (fighter), and 1 REALLY weak tier 5 (monk). They're all over the place.

I'd say go for tiers 2-4, replacing wizard and sorcerer with hexblade, adept, psion, wilder, dread necromancer, warlock, dragonfire adept, and (non-summoner) binder, replacing the cleric with favored soul and the druid with the wildshaping ranger and totemist, probably replacing rogue with factotum and beguiler, and replacing the fighter, monk, and paladin with the duskblade, psychic warrior, warblade, swordsage, and crusader. Add in the incarnate, and whatever other other tier 2-4 classes you can find, and go for it.

Really, core is pretty well unsalvageable, as it would, by that point, turn into an entirely different game. So average out at tier 3, and enjoy.

Godskook
2010-05-30, 09:39 AM
The shapeshifting family is a bit of a problem, yeah, but I don't have much of a fluff-related reason to get rid of them right now. As for Celerity, I've never even heard of it (a cursory glance through by book says it isn't Core and by extension not my problem) and Shivering Touch is... also not Core, ergo, not my problem.

No gods of nature in your setting?

Eldan
2010-05-30, 09:40 AM
Actually, reading your summon monster line:
Djinns, Slaads and elementals are also from other planes.

And the Wizard still has Wish. And Forcecage, Wall of Force, Grease, Solid Fog and half a dozen others to shut down fighters.

AstralFire
2010-05-30, 09:50 AM
The only fluff needed to ban spells is the same as the fluff used to introduce new spells. "It just is this way." Seriously, D&D magic does not interact in any significant way with any of the official settings with the exception of Eberron, after all.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-30, 09:54 AM
Something a lot of people seem to be missing:

He's not trying to balance the Wizard with these changes.

He knows it's overpowered and doesn't mind (would even like) nerfing them, but that's not the goal specifically with these changes. These are all entirely fluff-changes. He just wants to make sure his fluff doesn't make Wizards unplayable - for which, I must say, kudos to him.

Anyway, in answer to the question: no, it doesn't cripple them. They can still fill any slot from "weak archer wannabe" to "god", if they want. No Gate eliminates a lot of the highest-end cheese, but it was never necessary for Wizards in the first place.

aje8
2010-05-30, 10:30 AM
Yeah... Wizard have no problem with this. While some of your very best stuff is gone, the vast majority is still there.

Still got Grease, Glitterdust, Stinking Cloud, Enervation, Ray of Enfeeblement, Haste, Slow, Timestop, Poly-Morph Line...... yep, pretty sure GOD Wizard still works just fine under those rules. The nerf is minor.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-30, 11:03 AM
The shapeshifting family is a bit of a problem, yeah, but I don't have much of a fluff-related reason to get rid of them right now.
You don't need one, if you're hard-nosed about following all the rules. So your Wizard wants to use Alter Self. That's fine; they can assume any form that's allowed by the spell and that they know about. After all, knowing how to cast the spell doesn't inject a catalog of D&D creature stats into the caster's brain. There are other rules for that.

For instance: you want to know what a Lizardfolk looks like? You'll know if you Spot one and make your Knowledge (local) check to identify that creature as such. If you've never seen one, and never known any of its characteristics, you certainly can't assume the form of a ("uh, I don't know what it looks like or any of its racial traits, but I want +5 natural armor") creature.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-30, 11:08 AM
You don't need one, if you're hard-nosed about following all the rules. So your Wizard wants to use Alter Self. That's fine; they can assume any form that's allowed by the spell and that they know about. After all, knowing how to cast the spell doesn't inject a catalog of D&D creature stats into the caster's brain. There are other rules for that.

For instance: you want to know what a Lizardfolk looks like? You'll know if you Spot one and make your Knowledge (local) check to identify that creature as such. If you've never seen one, and never known any of its characteristics, you certainly can't assume the form of a ("uh, I don't know what it looks like or any of its racial traits, but I want +5 natural armor") creature.

Or let them study in a library when the party visits a city? Without divinations, that'd be the most logical way for a wizard looking to shapeshift to bone up on possible creatures he can turn into.

I prefer, rather (or alongside) making it more difficult to be 'familiar' with monsters, to just limit the number of known forms, a la the Master of 'Many' Forms. One creature per Wizard class level, or Intelligence modifier, can be memorized in enough detail to shapeshift into it.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-30, 11:43 AM
You don't need one, if you're hard-nosed about following all the rules. So your Wizard wants to use Alter Self. That's fine; they can assume any form that's allowed by the spell and that they know about. After all, knowing how to cast the spell doesn't inject a catalog of D&D creature stats into the caster's brain. There are other rules for that.

For instance: you want to know what a Lizardfolk looks like? You'll know if you Spot one and make your Knowledge (local) check to identify that creature as such. If you've never seen one, and never known any of its characteristics, you certainly can't assume the form of a ("uh, I don't know what it looks like or any of its racial traits, but I want +5 natural armor") creature.The rules simply state that you can turn into anything of a given HD limit or below, and are a little limited on the types of creatures you can polymorph into. Familiarity is irrelevant, as it's not mentioned at all, in alter self or otherwise.

This is fine (and even encouraged) if you're talking about houserules, but it's not RAW whatsoever, so please don't act like it is.

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 11:54 AM
Gonna take a few edits to catch up from sleeping...


Actually, reading your summon monster line:
Djinns, Slaads and elementals are also from other planes.

In canon, yes. In this setting, Riftspawn are from not-quite-planes. Those planes EXIST, yes, and the Riftspawn know what they're like, but not even clerics can Plane Shift to them or cast whatever Dismissal-equivalent they have (I don't have the spell lists memorized). But, on the other hand... why should I let Wizards summon the very things that exist to reign them in?

*kills the Summon Monster Line*


And the Wizard still has Wish.

Wish runs almost entirely on DM Fiat. Shouldn't be too hard to control.


You don't need one, if you're hard-nosed about following all the rules. So your Wizard wants to use Alter Self. That's fine; they can assume any form that's allowed by the spell and that they know about. After all, knowing how to cast the spell doesn't inject a catalog of D&D creature stats into the caster's brain. There are other rules for that.

For instance: you want to know what a Lizardfolk looks like? You'll know if you Spot one and make your Knowledge (local) check to identify that creature as such. If you've never seen one, and never known any of its characteristics, you certainly can't assume the form of a ("uh, I don't know what it looks like or any of its racial traits, but I want +5 natural armor") creature.

I like this idea. Especially considering theres plenty of creatures that just flat-out don't exist in my setting.


I prefer, rather (or alongside) making it more difficult to be 'familiar' with monsters, to just limit the number of known forms, a la the Master of 'Many' Forms. One creature per Wizard class level, or Intelligence modifier, can be memorized in enough detail to shapeshift into it.

Perhaps per (Inherent, since simply putting on a Head band of Intellect is not going to make you know more things) Intelligence modifier per Wizard level? Or would that be a bit much?


This is fine (and even encouraged) if you're talking about houserules, but it's not RAW whatsoever, so please don't act like it is.

I believe it was a suggestion, not an accusation of RAW.

Right, that's all fer now.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-30, 12:05 PM
I believe it was a suggestion, not an accusation of RAW.The wording he used:


You don't need one, if you're hard-nosed about following all the rules. So your Wizard wants to use Alter Self. That's fine; they can assume any form that's allowed by the spell and that they know about....indicated that following his 'suggestion' is following the rules, which it, most unfortunately, isn't.

Even so, 'familiarity' in this context is undefined, so it's not a useful benchmark for determining what a wizard can get.

Unless you allow a wizard unrestricted access to all forms he can potentially take it's a houserule. Houserules aren't bad (quite the opposite, as the game is unplayable otherwise), and it's not a bad houserule, but call a spade a spade, folks.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-30, 12:10 PM
The rules simply state that you can turn into anything of a given HD limit or below, and are a little limited on the types of creatures you can polymorph into. Familiarity is irrelevant
You're making up something not specified in the rules.
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself. Alter Self provides no information about creature traits, nor does it permit you to assume an arbitrary form. (The word "anything" is conspicuously absent from the spell description.) Spells which do provide creature information for their caster, such as the Summon Monster line, are quite clear.
The spell conjures one of the creatures from the 1st-level list on the accompanying Summon Monster table.
You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. Alter Self itself provides no information about what characteristics "a creature of that kind" has, so you refer to the existing other rules of the game, such as Knowledge (local), to determine if you know what's "within the norms for the new form’s kind" for humanoid forms.

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 12:12 PM
On very flimsy standards, it might qualify as RAW. A Druid's Wild Shape functions like polymorph, but a Druid can't turn into an animal it's never seen. (I believe the example they used was "a Druid who has never been outside a temperate forest could not become a polar bear.")

Like I said, very flimsy standards. Cannot stress that enough.

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-30, 12:20 PM
Note that there are a lot of spells that you haven't banned despite fitting your criteria. Such as Teleport (uses the Astral Plane), Astral Projection, Blink, Etherealness, Ethereal Jaunt, etc.

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-30, 12:22 PM
On very flimsy standards, it might qualify as RAW. A Druid's Wild Shape functions like polymorph, but a Druid can't turn into an animal it's never seen. (I believe the example they used was "a Druid who has never been outside a temperate forest could not become a polar bear.")

Like I said, very flimsy standards. Cannot stress that enough.The mechanics may be similar insofar as you can shapeshift into something else, but wild shape doesn't reference the polymorph line of spells in any way, shape, or form, and neither does the alternate form special ability, which it's based around. Likewise, alter self and its derivatives don't reference wild shape or alternate form.

They're completely unrelated, other than changing your shape into something else, but that's thematic, rather than rules-related. It's an excessively tenuous connection, but only via fluff, rather than rules.

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 12:25 PM
Note that there are a lot of spells that you haven't banned despite fitting your criteria. Such as Teleport (uses the Astral Plane), Astral Projection, Blink, Etherealness, Ethereal Jaunt, etc.

Hm, well, teleport doesn't need to use the Astral Plane, and the Ethreal ones could be cured simply by ignoring the foofahrah about the Ethreal Plane and just change it so they go incorporeal... but on the other hand, wizards can level city blocks with their brain. Why cut them any slack?


The mechanics may be similar insofar as you can shapeshift into something else, but wild shape doesn't reference the polymorph line of spells in any way, shape, or form, and neither does the alternate form special ability, which it's based around. Likewise, alter self and its derivatives don't reference wild shape or alternate form.

They're completely unrelated, other than changing your shape into something else, but that's thematic, rather than rules-related. It's an excessively tenuous connection, but only via fluff, rather than rules.

VERY flimsy. Not so much outright stated by the rules as it is logical to infer one from the other. On the other hand, when most people think RAW they're very insistant at leaving logic at the door so they can do things like heal from drowning.

PId6
2010-05-30, 12:27 PM
Losing Summon Monster and Planar Binding is a bit annoying, but no, arcane casters aren't hurt by this at all.

You should probably add Astral Projection to the list too.

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 12:29 PM
You should probably add Astral Projection to the list too.

Workin on it. Just gotta pull out my PHB so I can look at spells that are of the related criteria. (Astral and Ethreal fiddling.)

Lycanthromancer
2010-05-30, 12:37 PM
Losing Summon Monster and Planar Binding is a bit annoying, but no, arcane casters aren't hurt by this at all.

You should probably add Astral Projection to the list too.Astral projection wouldn't be nearly so bad if, A.) your real equipment was damaged/expended when your copies are, and B.) there were some serious downsides to being killed when so projected (say, forever lose 2 points from all stats, no save).

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 12:46 PM
Updated with the Astral/Ethreal bits and a few others that I missed (Clone, Time Stop, and a few others.)

PId6
2010-05-30, 12:54 PM
Astral projection wouldn't be nearly so bad if, A.) your real equipment was damaged/expended when your copies are, and B.) there were some serious downsides to being killed when so projected (say, forever lose 2 points from all stats, no save).
B would just make it kinda unusable, since that's worse than actual death. I'd much rather just say that A) no free charged magic items, B) can't go back to the Prime Material Plane, and C) if you die, your body dies as well. On the other hand, then it's not really worthwhile as a 9th level spell, and it does have an expensive material component cost, so it doesn't really seem necessary as a spell at all. Greater Plane Shift is way better and more straightforward if you cut out the abuses.

But in this case, I think it should be banned purely for fluff reasons. Without abuse, the spell's purpose is planar travel, which arcane casters aren't supposed to get in this setting.


Updated with the Astral/Ethreal bits and a few others that I missed (Clone, Time Stop, and a few others.)
Why ban Teleport? It's fluffed as traveling through the Astral Plane, but that fluff can easily be changed. And if you're banning Teleport you'd have to ban the entire Teleportation subschool, which would IMO cut off a lot of interesting and worthwhile spells without much cause (Benign Transposition, Dimension Hop, Dimension Door, etc).

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-30, 01:01 PM
Time Stop doesn't actually stop time, it just makes you very, very, very much faster. So, there is no reason to ban it because time doesn't exist.

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 01:02 PM
Why ban Teleport? It's fluffed as traveling through the Astral Plane, but that fluff can easily be changed. And if you're banning Teleport you'd have to ban the entire Teleportation subschool, which would IMO cut off a lot of interesting and worthwhile spells without much cause (Benign Transposition, Dimension Hop, Dimension Door, etc).

I consider that fact, but ultimately concluded that Wizards don't need any slack cut to them. They can already blow up cities for ****s 'n giggles. And given that the Wizard in the campaign I'm setting up is pretty much a straight blaster-type, I doubt he'll miss it much.

Not to mention it ruins alot of Wacky Wayside Tribe (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WackyWaysideTribe) opportunities.

Also, Benign Transportation and Dimension Hop are both non-Core and thus don't exist in this setting anyway.


Time Stop doesn't actually stop time, it just makes you very, very, very much faster. So, there is no reason to ban it because time doesn't exist.

There's still the second, "stupidly powerful" caveat.

waterpenguin43
2010-05-30, 01:07 PM
This only really cripples necromancers.

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 01:08 PM
This only really cripples necromancers.

Makes them nonexistant, actually. Arcane spellcasters just flat-out can't become necromancers in this setting.

Endarire
2010-05-30, 06:09 PM
Given these restrictions, I'd more likely be a Transmuter than a Conjurer in this game. Conjurers get hosed. No summoning, no calling, no teleport, no plane shift.

While it isn't crippling, it makes arcane casters much less fun to play. At least I can polymorph into a many-headed Pyrohydra or pull a Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer).

You could change protection from alignment to protection from type. The effects are the same, but the caster must specify a type or subtype to ward against, with Undead and Outsiders possibly excluded.

3.5 Wizards aren't primary blasters. They're mostly crowd controllers, buffers, and debuffers if you follow Treantmonk (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards:_Being_a_God).

Lamech
2010-05-30, 07:39 PM
Yeah, this really does't affect the logicninja batman wizard much at all. And those are still pretty powerful, but if you believe that guide its okay because the wizard doesn't actually kill very much, just cripple it and make the party much more powerful. I for one don't think a character is much less unbalanced if all it focuses on is support.

On that note polymorph is fine because the wizard should be using it on fighter/rogue/factotum anyway. (Assuming its not something like hydra and the monster takes 48d8+960 points of damage.)

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 08:04 PM
Based on commentary from this thread, I'm making polymorph, shapechange, alter self, etc., follow this rule:


Any character attempting to shapeshift using spells such as Alter Self, Polymorph, or Shapechange may only take a number of different forms equal to (Caster Level x Inherent INT Modifier). In order to obtain a new form, they must study the form (be it the actual creature, a detailed anatomical sketch, or a lengthy text description) for 10 minutes. If they are interrupted at any point during this study, they must start the 10 minutes over again before they can obtain the form.

And note that these are specific forms, not general ones. Just because you can shapeshift into a human doesn't mean you can shapeshift into any human.

avr
2010-05-30, 08:20 PM
I'll just say that the problem with familiarity as a nerf for shapeshifting IME is that it either leads to the DM severely censoring the monsters he lets the players see/kill (with the possible occasional facepalm "Oh no, I let them see a fang dragon!"), or to the same problems as existed already.

Drakevarg
2010-05-30, 08:38 PM
I just throw creatures at them that it makes sense for them to encounter. I don't generally do freak-of-the-week style gameplay. With the exception of Riftspawn that is, and if they're going to exist in the Mortal Realm for ten minutes that means they've already killed everyone in the party. Most of the monsters I use are largely mundane (mundane here being less "fire breath" and more "very large teeth"), or they're the direct consequence of magical abuse (which tend to disappear after death either way).