Factotum or Chameleon?

[Kobold-Bard]

Once again I have a class choice dilemma: should I go full Factotum or move into Chameleon?

Currently Level 6 and Gestalted with Red Mage (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Red_Mage_(3.5e_Class)), though It'll hopefully go quite high.

Thoughts? Advice?


Thanks in advance,
K-B

[Ranos]

Looks like you've already got casting covered, and while the shifting feat is good, it's not THAT good by itself. Go full factotum, you'll get more out of breaking action economy.

[Amphetryon]

Factotum 18/Chameleon 2.

[Kobold-Bard]

Factotum 18/Chameleon 2.

Should I take Chameleon levels now or later?

[Marriclay]

Should I take Chameleon levels now or later?

that's a tough question and it really comes down to roleplaying style and how far you expect to get in the campaign. personally, I'd leave it till the end

[Amphetryon]

Should I take Chameleon levels now or later?

I personally prefer to hit the floating feat around level 12, because I'll have virtually any pre-reqs already in the bag for them at that point. That said, Marriclay is right; it comes down to the play style of both you and your group without a definitively 'right' answer.

[Godskook]

I'd snag it ASAP, just because a floating feat gives you something for everything.

And don't forget that Heroics and Mirror Move exist, for even more bonus feat fun.

[Kobold-Bard]

I'd snag it ASAP, just because a floating feat gives you something for everything.

And don't forget that Heroics and Mirror Move exist, for even more bonus feat fun.

Technically I didn't forget, I just have no idea what they are. Care to explain please?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Should I take Chameleon levels now or later?

It depends on whether or not you plan on making any magic items, if you'll get time to make quite a few, and what you want to make. If the party typically gets a few weeks to a few months in-game between adventures I'd say get it immediately. You should probably charge the rest of the party at least 75% of full price for crafted items (50% cost, 20% for 5 gp per 1 xp, 5% profit), keep in mind that multiple characters can contribute different portions of the prerequisites to craft something, and as per DMG errata (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) an item's given caster level is not required to craft it. You may fall a little behind on levels, but you'll have considerably better gear. Be sure to get a Belt of Battle, Circlet of Rapid Casting, +1 Twilight Mithril Heavy Shield, metamagic rods, etc.

Another reason to get it early is so you can prestige class on the Red Mage side later on. Something like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil or Mage of the Arcane Order would be useful, or maybe Divine Oracle to get Evasion and Uncanny Dodge. There wouldn't be any loss of BAB, skills, saves, or HD for taking a caster prestige class with Wizard-quality progressions in those areas due to Factotum, so you'd be trading out the weaker class features for stronger ones.

[Godskook]

Technically I didn't forget, I just have no idea what they are. Care to explain please?

Mirror Move (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20030504x) and Heroics are spells, from WotC website and Spell Compendium respectively, that grant you additional fighter feats. With 2nd level spells and 18 int(something factotums have both of), you can get shock trooper + 2 more core fighter feats(Improved Initiative is great, among others).

Mirror move lasts minutes per level(so 3 minutes in a min-caster wand) and, iirc, heroics is 10 minutes per level(so 30 minutes).

Also, I'm not sure about the RAW exactly, but I've seen quite a few people use Heroics in stacking form, which means that yes, your Factotum could have almost every fighter feat up and running, if he wanted to. Check with your DM and/or Curmudgeon on that to be sure.

[strider24seven]

It kind of depends on what you want.

If you want more versatility in combat, go full Factotum, or Factotum 19/Whatever 1. Master of Masks is a good dip here for proficiency with pretty much every weapon ever.

If you want more versatility out of combat, go at least 8 Factotum and at least 2 Chameleon. Here's why:

Factotum 8/Chameleon 10/Whatever 2- Cunning Surge, and arcane and divine casting (6th lvl spells and 20 CL). Makes for a good boomstick and Batman, especially with Red Mage.

Factotum 11/Chameleon 9- My personal favorite. The ability to overcome DR/SR with Cunning Breach is freaking awesome for a combat spellcaster, and you still get 6th level spells. You don't get that last ability boost, though.

Factotum 16/Chameleon 2/Whatever 2- INT to AC all the time, a floating feat, and some minor spellcasting. Good with Marshall for an INT/CHA based character. Also good with Warblade.

The breakpoints for Factotum are 8, 11, and 19, for Surge, Breach, and Brilliance. The breakpoints for Chameleon are 2 and 9, for the floating feat and 6th level spells. Make it work.

Also, IMO, don't go 18 Factotum, ever. Cunning Brilliance is worth more than that floating feat.

Edit: If you want Chameleon for more than the feat, frontload your Chameleon levels because of the high CL. If you just want the feat, then you can take Chameleon whenever it's convenient.

[Curmudgeon]

Also, I'm not sure about the RAW exactly, but I've seen quite a few people use Heroics in stacking form, which means that yes, your Factotum could have almost every fighter feat up and running, if he wanted to. Check with your DM and/or Curmudgeon on that to be sure.
I'll save you the trouble. Heroics has as a primary effect the temporary granting of a feat. You couldn't use Heroics twice for the same feat, even those few (like Toughness) which normally allow stacking benefits.
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. Beyond that, only some feats will "provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes". If you steer clear of this limitation you're fine.

For instance, you couldn't use Heroics to get stacking benefits from both Point Blank Shot and Weapon Focus with a ranged weapon, because both feats provide a +1 bonus to attack rolls within 30'; the combination will only net you +1 (instead of +2) to ranged attacks. You would receive the constant +1 to attacks with that ranged weapon (from Weapon Focus) and also the +1 to damage within 30' (from Point Blank Shot).

[Gametime]

Should I take Chameleon levels now or later?

If you leave them until later, it becomes questionable whether the floating feat is better than the 19th level ability of the Factotum.

The fact that the floating feats can be acquired earlier is a strong point in their favor. (Of course, if you're doing gestalt, you might be able to get both in the build with careful level distribution.)

[DragoonWraith]

I'd say wait until Factotum 8 before going anywhere. Factotum 8 is just such a great break level that even if you're coming back, it's a good place to take a detour. (the other would have been 3 if you were multiclassing, but that's moot).

[Pluto]

Factotum 20//Red Mage 6/Chameleon 10/Red Mage 4

Cast Red Mage spells from Chameleon slots. >.>

[Zaq]

The Factotum is a very competent generalist.

The Chameleon is a serial specialist.

Choose which one of those appeals to you more.

[Lycanthromancer]

The Factotum is a very competent generalist.

The Chameleon is a serial specialist.

Choose which one of those appeals to you more.You could generalize in specialization? >.>

[strider24seven]

You could generalize in specialization? >.>

No, you specialize in generalization!:smallbiggrin:

[Kobold-Bard]

No, you specialize in generalization!:smallbiggrin:

You could always generally specialise in general-specialisation.

[strider24seven]

You could always generally specialise in general-specialisation.

Whatever the case, it is better than specializing in mediocrity, like most generalists do.

[Mystic Muse]

Whatever you do you have to have ranks in animal husbandry.

[Kobold-Bard]

Whatever you do you have to have ranks in animal husbandry.

:smallconfused: I confuz?

[Person_Man]

Red Mage? If you're playing Gestalt, why use a 3/4 caster? Wouldn't Factotum 20//Wizard 5/PrC 5/PrC 10 give you much better results? Doublecast and Arcane Resilience are nice, but not worth nerfing your entire spell progression.

[Mystic Muse]

:smallconfused: I confuz?

Have you not read the comic 8 bit theater?

[strider24seven]

Person Man, Factotum//Fullcaster is just ridiculous no matter how you play it. A 3/4 caster is more of a challenge/RP thing than a powergame thing. Don't get me wrong, I love Factota//Wizards. But sometimes spamming Cunning Surge (Finger of Death) can get old.

[Kobold-Bard]

Red Mage? If you're playing Gestalt, why use a 3/4 caster? Wouldn't Factotum 20//Wizard 5/PrC 5/PrC 10 give you much better results? Doublecast and Arcane Resilience are nice, but not worth nerfing your entire spell progression.

Because I wanted to use Healing Spells. It sounds a bit Stormwindy, but I really would rather play the Red Mage over a Wizard because it's more in-keeping with the character idea I have.