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balistafreak
2010-05-30, 11:02 AM
No, not a PC who mopes around all the time while doing backflips off walls writing emo poetry at the same time.

Fighters and Warblades are mostly SAD on Strength. Druids and Clerics are SAD on Wisdom. Wizards are SAD on Intelligence, Sorcerers on Charisma. Dragonfire Adepts are mostly SAD on Constitution with a possible aside on Charisma.

The only SAD on Dexterity class I can think of is Scout, but I'm not a huge fan of them. Are there any (non-epic fail) classes that are mostly SAD on Dexterity?

Reynard
2010-05-30, 11:06 AM
X stat to Y bonus. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732)

Boci
2010-05-30, 11:07 AM
iF you assume a warblade is SAD on strengths, isn't a swordsage SAD on Dex with shadowblade and weapon finesse?

Greenish
2010-05-30, 11:11 AM
Daring Outlaw. To-hit from Dex, damage from SA & Craven.

Saph
2010-05-30, 11:13 AM
Shadow Blade Swordsage is the classic one. Use Dex for attack, damage, AC, Reflex, Initiative, and most of your skills as well.

Zaq
2010-05-30, 11:44 AM
If you do this and you have a lighthearted GM, you should play a Muckdweller, found on pages 71 and 72 of the FR book Serpent Kingdoms (yes, that Serpent Kingdoms. Hear me out, this isn't bad.), which has an LA listing of "0" (not "--," which is not suitable for PCs, but actually 0.) They're Tiny, with a +6 to DEX (–6 STR and -2 WIS and CHA, but you're DEX-SAD, right?), but that's not what makes them interesting. What makes them interesting is that they have a racial ability with a save DC based off of DEX. I don't know of anything else in D&D that has a DEX-based save DC (the game's big enough that I'm sure there's at least one more, but I can't think of any).

Also interesting, the same book indicates that Muckdwellers may be taken as familiars by a caster with the Improved Familiar feat. There's no limitation against Muckdwellers taking this feat, and honestly, there are worse wizards out there (The stat penalties are mostly to dump stats, and while DEX isn't as good as CON for wizards, it's still good, and Tiny size is delightful). So you can have a Muckdweller with a Muckdweller familiar.

Anyway, DEX-based save DC. Weird, huh?

Curmudgeon
2010-05-30, 11:48 AM
So let's put this together. A Rogue 3/Swashbuckler X has Weapon Finesse, which they can use with a Sword of Graceful Strikes for DEX to both attack and damage in melee. For ranged weapons, add Dead Eye and they can add DEX for both attack and damage within 30', or Crossbow Sniper and they can add DEX to attack and ˝ DEX to damage within 60'. With Daring Outlaw they add the full sneak attack progression of a Rogue of their combined levels, +1 per character level from Craven.

The problem with the Shadow Blade Swordsage is their lack of useful ranged options. They can't use Shadow Blade with any decent ranged weapon (daggers, with a penalty at any range that doesn't provoke an AoO, are quite indecent). And Shadow Blade doesn't keep the Swordsage from also needing Weapon Finesse to be able to use DEX for attacks as well as damage.

Boci
2010-05-30, 11:53 AM
And Shadow Blade doesn't keep the Swordsage from also needing Weapon Finesse to be able to use DEX for attacks as well as damage.

Feycraft weapon.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-30, 11:56 AM
Feycraft weapon.

Correct me if I am wrong but don't feycraft weapons reduce the damage die in order to let such weapon be use with weapon finnese (In other words, you can finnesse a feycraft greataxe; but only if you have weapon finnesse as a feat) or does it lets you use DEX to hit regardless if you have or not the weapon?

Zaq
2010-05-30, 11:58 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but don't feycraft weapons reduce the damage die in order to let such weapon be use with weapon finnese (In other words, you can finnesse a feycraft greataxe; but only if you have weapon finnesse as a feat) or does it lets you use DEX to hit regardless if you have or not the weapon?

If the weapon is initially a light weapon, making it Feycraft makes it use DEX for to-hit.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-05-30, 12:02 PM
Ohhh I see, thanks... BTW in which book do you find feycraft weapons?

Draz74
2010-05-30, 01:07 PM
DMG2.

And Feycraft does reduce the damage die, but that's usually just a -1 damage reduction on average. Not a big deal when you've got things like Sneak Attack to add to your damage.

true_shinken
2010-05-30, 02:33 PM
Depending on feycraft weapons means you are totally screwed if you get disarmed, if your weapon is sundered and if you are captured and they take your equipment.
Take weapon finesse or at least have a wand of heroics always well-hidden in your person.

AstralFire
2010-05-30, 02:37 PM
Depending on feycraft weapons means you are totally screwed if you get disarmed, if your weapon is sundered and if you are captured and they take your equipment.
Take weapon finesse or at least have a wand of heroics always well-hidden in your person.

Uh, aren't quite a few things screwed in that case?

Saint GoH
2010-05-30, 04:07 PM
)And Shadow Blade doesn't keep the Swordsage from also needing Weapon Finesse to be able to use DEX for attacks as well as damage.

There is an addendum to the feat. It reads, "Shadow Blade can be used in place of Weapon Finesse to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. If this substitution allows you to gain a benefit that normally applies to all finesse weapons (those described in the Weapon Finesse feat description), it instead applies only to the Shadow Hand discipline’s preferred weapons."

So just as long as you are using Shadowhand Weapons (which you should be, because Shadowblade's DEX to damage only applies to those weapons.) the feat qualifies for both attack and damage, because a listed ability of Weapon finesse is using your dex to attack. :smallbiggrin:

Of my many Dex SAD builds, my favorite is a Swordsage with a few fighter dips using "Hit and Run Tactics" ACF from Drow of the Underdark. Double dex to damage when they are flat-footed? Yes please.

Reynard
2010-05-30, 04:22 PM
Hmm, a Halfling Shadowblade Swordsage with two daggers could do a good Belkar impersonation. If it wasn't for the Wis thing.

Riffington
2010-05-30, 04:33 PM
There is an addendum to the feat. It reads, [I]"Shadow Blade can be used in place of Weapon Finesse to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability....a listed ability of Weapon finesse is using your dex to attack. :smallbiggrin:


If there were some class, race, or feat that gave you dex to attack and required Weapon Finesse to qualify, you'd be able to qualify for it. You don't actually gain the benefit of Weapon Finesse without taking the feat.

Mongoose87
2010-05-30, 05:15 PM
If there were some class, race, or feat that gave you dex to attack and required Weapon Finesse to qualify, you'd be able to qualify for it. You don't actually gain the benefit of Weapon Finesse without taking the feat.

Unless you convince your DM to include Dex to to-hit as a "special ability."

Riffington
2010-05-30, 05:20 PM
Unless you convince your DM to include Dex to to-hit as a "special ability."

A special ability that Weapon finesse qualifies you for?

Mongoose87
2010-05-30, 05:21 PM
A special ability that Weapon finesse qualifies you for?

That's the ticket. :smallwink:

bartman
2010-05-30, 08:07 PM
If you are allowed non WoTC books, Alderac Entertainment has a book called Feats. In it there is a feat called Superior Finesse, which needs expertise (their version of combat expertise) and weapon finesse. it lets you apply DEX to damage.

Mongoose87
2010-05-30, 08:19 PM
I think Expertise was just 3.0 Combat Expertise.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-30, 08:29 PM
I think Expertise was just 3.0 Combat Expertise.
Indeed. Alderac's Feats came out a few months before the 3.5 core books. So you'd need approval of 3rd party material, then DM review of each feat for any required 3.5 modification.
This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments.

dextercorvia
2010-05-30, 09:36 PM
So let's put this together. A Rogue 3/Swashbuckler X has Weapon Finesse, which they can use with a Sword of Graceful Strikes for DEX to both attack and damage in melee. For ranged weapons, add Dead Eye and they can add DEX for both attack and damage within 30', or Crossbow Sniper and they can add DEX to attack and ˝ DEX to damage within 60'. With Daring Outlaw they add the full sneak attack progression of a Rogue of their combined levels, +1 per character level from Craven.

Like rogues much? Thanks for the tips.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-30, 09:39 PM
No, Curmudgeon just has a ridiculously encyclopedic knowledge of the rules of this game.

EDIT: In case this was unclear, that was intended as a compliment.

lsfreak
2010-05-30, 10:09 PM
No, Curmudgeon just has a ridiculously encyclopedic knowledge of the rules of this game.

EDIT: In case this was unclear, that was intended as a compliment.

Well, actually, I believe it's both. I'm fairly sure I've seen him post that rogues are his favorite class several times.

Saint GoH
2010-05-30, 10:10 PM
That's the ticket. :smallwink:

The ticket indeed. We convinced because of this line, "If this substitution allows you to gain a benefit that normally applies to all finesse weapons (those described in the Weapon Finesse feat description) it instead applies only to the Shadow Hand discipline’s preferred weapons." one of the benefits from Weapon Finesse is Dex to Attack, so you could gain the benefit from Weapon Finesse while using Shadowblade, only with Shadowhand weaps...

Devious, I know. :smallwink:

Curmudgeon
2010-05-30, 10:23 PM
Well, actually, I believe it's both. I'm fairly sure I've seen him post that rogues are his favorite class several times. Got it in one. With an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules Wizards are boringly easy. I'll use Cleric as a dip, and I had a Favored Soul character that I liked, but generally I stick to Tiers 3-5. I enjoy a challenge, and I don't know of a class that benefits from an extensive collection of D&D books as much as the Rogue. :smallamused:

Mongoose87
2010-05-30, 10:49 PM
Got it in one. With an encyclopedic knowledge of the rules Wizards are boringly easy. I'll use Cleric as a dip, and I had a Favored Soul character that I liked, but generally I stick to Tiers 3-5. I enjoy a challenge, and I don't know of a class that benefits from an extensive collection of D&D books as much as the Rogue. :smallamused:

I am going to walk wherever you are, to learn at your feet. Wax on, wax off.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2010-05-31, 06:58 AM
There is an addendum to the feat. It reads, "Shadow Blade can be used in place of Weapon Finesse to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. If this substitution allows you to gain a benefit that normally applies to all finesse weapons (those described in the Weapon Finesse feat description), it instead applies only to the Shadow Hand discipline’s preferred weapons."

So just as long as you are using Shadowhand Weapons (which you should be, because Shadowblade's DEX to damage only applies to those weapons.) the feat qualifies for both attack and damage, because a listed ability of Weapon finesse is using your dex to attack. :smallbiggrin:
/QUOTE]

I tried making that arguement, and it did not work. It helps if a pre-requisite to a class is Weapon Finesee, but you are still using STR to hit, regardless. One feat does not give you the effect of two feats, even if it is limited. I asked WotC, and they said "ask your DM you non-4th edition adopting infidel!!!" :smallfrown:

If you go with something insane, like Pixie race, or Swashbuckler (which is more "optimized") you get Finesse as a freebee. besides... if you do go Swashbucker, you'll be adding STR, DEX, and INT to damage. At least 2 of those are going to be good :smallbiggrin:

[QUOTE=Boci;8593319]Feycraft weapon.

Feycraft weapons typically have less hardness and HP than standard weapons, right? Even adding a magical enhancement won't help much. Ahh, Improved Sunder... /eeevil DM smirk

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-05-31, 07:26 AM
The problem with the Shadow Blade Swordsage is their lack of useful ranged options. They can't use Shadow Blade with any decent ranged weapon (daggers, with a penalty at any range that doesn't provoke an AoO, are quite indecent). And Shadow Blade doesn't keep the Swordsage from also needing Weapon Finesse to be able to use DEX for attacks as well as damage.

That, my friend, is why Shadow Hand has move and swift action teleports. Also, Swordsages have access to Tiger Fang for Pouncing Strike.

So you have melee, then you have the ability to make it melee.

Boci
2010-05-31, 09:07 AM
Feycraft weapons typically have less hardness and HP than standard weapons, right? Even adding a magical enhancement won't help much. Ahh, Improved Sunder... /eeevil DM smirk

-1 hardness, -1 hp. The difference will rarely even be noticable.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-31, 09:39 AM
That, my friend, is why Shadow Hand has move and swift action teleports. Also, Swordsages have access to Tiger Fang for Pouncing Strike.

So you have melee, then you have the ability to make it melee.
Against flying opponents? You still need a ranged option.

Boci
2010-05-31, 09:47 AM
Against flying opponents? You still need a ranged option.

What's wrong with a light crossbow?

Curmudgeon
2010-05-31, 10:28 AM
What's wrong with a light crossbow?

The range could be better. You're in bad shape against flying foes attacking with long range spells.
Reloading for a full attack requires either a feat or magical enhancement.

Draz74
2010-05-31, 11:54 AM
The range could be better. You're in bad shape against flying foes attacking with long range spells.

So is ... everyone else who can't counterattack with long range spells. :smalltongue:

Zore
2010-05-31, 01:05 PM
Against flying opponents? You still need a ranged option.

Or the walk on air stance! :smallsmile:

Which has a bunch of restrictions and comes late...

Reynard
2010-05-31, 01:09 PM
Or get a bow and maneuvers from the many homebrew Disciplines that have been made for ranged fighters.

Curmudgeon
2010-05-31, 01:28 PM
So is ... everyone else who can't counterattack with long range spells. :smalltongue:
No, they're really not. A Ready action to hit spellcasters with an arrow is still a viable strategy if you can make the shot. Long range starts at 440'; that's 4 range increments for a composite longbow, or under 3 with Far Shot. Given the typical spellcaster AC you can usually keep them occupied while your own fliers close or your spellcasters do their thing. Unlike the real world, where projectiles lose energy as they travel, a D&D missile does full damage at all distances.

Spellcasters boost their skills enough to be able to make their Concentration checks to cast spells defensively; that's at most 15 + 9 (spell level) = DC 24. The Concentration check DC to retain a spell is 10 + damage dealt. So if the party can hit a spellcaster for 15+ damage you're outside the usual range for them to succeed. One specialized archer or a couple of ordinary martial types with bows hitting the same caster is all it usually takes; they lose the spell and accomplish nothing.