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Fouredged Sword
2010-05-30, 03:21 PM
Ok, I was sitting down museing about dnd 3.5 and I thought to myself what would happen if you removed all magic. Just cut out all arcane and devine magic and only had psycic powers flavored as magic. Most magic items could be reflavored and re-prereqed to be psycic.

How would that change the dynamic of the game?

Thoughts?

Greenish
2010-05-30, 03:26 PM
So, Dark Sun (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkSun)?

Also, it's "psionics" or "psychic powers". And "divine" and "musing"…

The Rose Dragon
2010-05-30, 03:27 PM
It would probably help balance the game a bit.

Also, it's psionics, not psycis. Not to be confused by psychic, which comes up several times in the psionics ruleset.

lsfreak
2010-05-30, 03:50 PM
It would make the game a lot more balanced. You'd lost out on a lot of the buffs that clerics and wizards give out, and you'd need a way of getting healing. A psionics + ToB campaign would be among the easiest ways to ensure everyone is near the same power level (just get rid of soulknives and divine minds).

Death Monkee
2010-05-30, 03:53 PM
Yeah, soulknife is too strong. It would over-shadow the other classes.

Fax Celestis
2010-05-30, 03:55 PM
Yeah, soulknife is too strong. It would over-shadow the other classes.

You had better be kidding. Or trolling.

Greenish
2010-05-30, 03:59 PM
You had better be kidding.http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/D_oh.jpg

Optimystik
2010-05-30, 04:09 PM
Yeah, soulknife is too strong. It would over-shadow the other classes.

Is it April 1 already?

The Dark Fiddler
2010-05-30, 04:26 PM
But guys, the Soulknife doesn't have to worry about sundered weapons! :smallwink:

Although perhaps making your mind blade your Item Familiar.... nah, still not that good.

gallagher
2010-05-30, 04:31 PM
i would actually be totally for a psionic and TOB game. it would be an excellent team to make a swordsage, a warblade, a psychic warrior, and an erudite (though that wouldnt be as powerful if you dont allow the spells for powers ACF, and in that case a psion.)

hope you give them all vampiric weapons and a full heal after 8 hours of rest

lsfreak
2010-05-30, 04:33 PM
i would actually be totally for a psionic and TOB game. it would be an excellent team to make a swordsage, a warblade, a psychic warrior, and an erudite (though that wouldnt be as powerful if you dont allow the spells for powers ACF, and in that case a psion.)

hope you give them all vampiric weapons and a full heal after 8 hours of rest

Oh, yea. Throw out erudite too. Psions are much more balanced.

More than likely, wound system with the Heal skill actually, you know, healing (though only vitality). Probably add a few powers that heal a bit as well.

Oslecamo
2010-05-30, 04:36 PM
It would make the game a lot more balanced. You'd lost out on a lot of the buffs that clerics and wizards give out, and you'd need a way of getting healing. A psionics + ToB campaign would be among the easiest ways to ensure everyone is near the same power level (just get rid of soulknives and divine minds).

Eerr, how exactly is that true? Psionics is weaker than magic, but it's by far the second strongest thing in D&D. A psion is more than capable to wipe the floor with anything ToB has. Heck psychic warrior alone could probably take them all on by himself(cough metamorphosis cough).

The big offenders are all there. Teleport, save or dies, infinity loops, mighty minions, mind control, extra actions, superior mobility, you name it, the psion has almost all of it. And the psychic warrior can take them with expanded knowledge.

Really, I never understood the whole "psionics is wonderfully balanced!" thingy. It's just less broken than magic, but still broken compared to everything else in D&D.

Optimystik
2010-05-30, 04:44 PM
Really, I never understood the whole "psionics is wonderfully balanced!" thingy. It's just less broken than magic, but still broken compared to everything else in D&D.

Uh, you can break anything in 3.5, even Truenaming. The underlying system is what's at fault here, not any given power source.

Oslecamo
2010-05-30, 04:46 PM
Uh, you can break anything in 3.5, even Truenaming. The underlying system is what's at fault here, not any given power source.

But psionics is specialy easy to break. Probably even easier than magic. Making nova scry and die psions is extremely easy.

Optimystik
2010-05-30, 04:53 PM
But psionics is specialy easy to break. Probably even easier than magic. Making nova scry and die psions is extremely easy.

No, it's not easier to break than magic at all. Psions don't get half the broken crap from PrCs that Wizards, Clerics and Druids get. Hell, they don't even get illusions.

The only psionic class that's Tier 1 is the one that gets magic spells. What does that tell you?

AstralFire
2010-05-30, 04:58 PM
The only thing psionics does easier than others is nova blast one/day encounters. That's it.

Anyway, some types of ardents can heal, as can any psionic character of high enough ML with Expanded Knowledge - it's a power in C. Psi. Alternately, consider a more gritty setting where recovery takes a long time.

Oslecamo
2010-05-30, 05:06 PM
No, it's not easier to break than magic at all. Psions don't get half the broken crap from PrCs that Wizards, Clerics and Druids get. Hell, they don't even get illusions.

Ah, you mean the school of magic that gets defeated by a single 6th level spell?:smalltongue:

Anyway, when I say "easy" I mean that psions don't have piles of "crap" powers and prcs to hide the good ones. Yes magic gets stronger stuff but it's hidden under piles of considerably weaker stuff.

It's very easy to gimp yourself as a wizard, but a psion? You'll have to work hard to suck. And then you get a power that lets you go back in any bad decisions you made. That's easy power. It's right at the grasp of the psion.

Magic classes demand much more planning to break the game. Heck, mr.fireball/cone of cold may actualy lag behind the fighter!



The only psionic class that's Tier 1 is the one that gets magic spells. What does that tell you?
That the tier system makes no sense and that the max power level of D&D only happens when you have very skilled players to use the rules to their fullest.:smallamused:

AstralFire
2010-05-30, 05:09 PM
Wizard lagging behind the Fighter doesn't happen in any situation where the same two players wouldn't also have the Psion lagging behind.

Oslecamo
2010-05-30, 05:19 PM
Wizard lagging behind the Fighter doesn't happen in any situation where the same two players wouldn't also have the Psion lagging behind.

Really?

What if the wizard feels like wearing armor? Wizard even more screwed, psion slightly bothered but actualy gains a bonus.

Wizard picks fireball? Well psion has no psionic fireball available to gimp himself, so he picks something more usefull.

Lighting bolt? Wizard screwed, psion just a little screwed since he's dealing more damage with higher DC and no damage cap.

Wizard tied up whitout vocal only spells? Royally screwed. Psion doesn't care at all.

Wizard loses spellbook? Roll a new character. Psion losing his head is much less likely to happen.

I could go on all day, but as you can see the psion has plenty of built-in advantages that prevent him from lagging behind badly, while the wizard is filled with traps.

AstralFire
2010-05-30, 05:28 PM
Really?

What if the wizard feels like wearing armor? Wizard even more screwed, psion slightly bothered but actualy gains a bonus.

You're dealing with a really dumb Wizard player most likely. It's not a trap when it warns you.


Wizard picks fireball? Well psion has no psionic fireball available to gimp himself, so he picks something more usefull.

Fireball is good. Fireball is not anywhere near the top of a Wizard's picks, but a Fighter would kill for an ability that good. Same for Lightning Bolt.


Wizard tied up whitout vocal only spells? Royally screwed. Psion doesn't care at all.

Wizard loses spellbook? Roll a new character. Psion losing his head is much less likely to happen.

Those aren't traps. Those are 'DM is targeting you' and have nothing to do with the player's competence being at fault.

Greenish
2010-05-30, 05:31 PM
What if the wizard feels like wearing armor? Wizard even more screwed, psion slightly bothered but actualy gains a bonus.Wizard can take the armor off.

Wizard picks fireball? Well psion has no psionic fireball available to gimp himself, so he picks something more usefull.Wizard can learn other spells. Heck, they can learn all the 3rd level spells if they want to. Psion who takes Dismiss Ectoplasm? He'd better be sure to pick Psychic Reformation, since he can only learn a limited number of powers.
Lighting bolt? Wizard screwed, psion just a little screwed since he's dealing more damage with higher DC and no damage cap.Wizard screwed? It's not like he's using his precious powers known slots to learn these spells! (But do you know who is using the few slots they have?)

Wizard tied up whitout vocal only spells? Royally screwed. Psion doesn't care at all.O noes, psionics have an advantage!

Wizard loses spellbook? Roll a new character. Psion losing his head is much less likely to happen.I'd say they're about equally likely, when the DM is gunning for you.

I could go on all day, but as you can see the psion has plenty of built-in advantages that prevent him from lagging behind badly, while the wizard is filled with traps.Wizard has more traps to avoid because the class gets so much more support it's not even funny. Besides, picking wrong spells is a minor bother for a wizard, but a psion can be royally screwed by poor selection of powers.

Khatoblepas
2010-05-30, 05:45 PM
I ran a Psionics and ToB campaign once. Ran smooth as butter, noone overshadowed each other, and the casting system was much easier to run than the vancian casting we had before. True, we had an Erudite, a Crusader and a Warblade - this just meant that we had all the angles covered with just three of us.

I highly recommend it. The more you can slice out magic, the better. In fact, it was a plot point in our campaign :P Magic had been destroyed, and the only vestigial remains were the odd scroll and some incantations of my design which shored up the rest of the party's lacking (Mostly Raise Dead)

Eldan
2010-05-30, 05:50 PM
I'd actually use Binder, Warlock, Beguiler and Shadowcaster for a more or less balanced set of casters. Warmage if a player really has to blast. That and ToB should give you a pretty good ensemble.

Death Monkee
2010-05-30, 05:56 PM
No, I was not joking about soulknife being over-powered. Mindblade damage can be stacked with claw damage and unarmed damage. You can get mindblade damage alone up to 16d8 per hit with a 200ft range. Without homebrew.
You can get an armor bonus that stacks with the monks ac bonus, and if you add the kung fu genius feat you can get all monk stuff to opperate off of int which makes this thing great for going into psion for the power points and powers. Oh, and the mindblade? It does force damage.

Its hard to do and you have to do some digging but if you can pull it off it is BUFF.

[Edit]
And you can FLURRY with a mindblade. And did I mention that the 16d8 is at level 6.

Pluto
2010-05-30, 06:00 PM
And did I mention that the 16d8 is at level 6.Where exactly is this coming from?

Optimystik
2010-05-30, 06:01 PM
Ah, you mean the school of magic that gets defeated by a single 6th level spell?:smalltongue:

1) You have to survive long enough to get to 6th-level spells first. Illusions help A LOT with that, more than any psionic power. Hell, Psions can't even turn invisible.

2) Don't get me started on the "wonders" of True Seeing. 250 gp a pop, and the right Illusions get worse when you see through them. Hell, let's not even bring "Invisible Solid Fog" shenanigans into this. But Psionics can do all that, amirite?


Anyway, when I say "easy" I mean that psions don't have piles of "crap" powers and prcs to hide the good ones. Yes magic gets stronger stuff but it's hidden under piles of considerably weaker stuff.

Psions don't have piles of crap PrCs and powers? Have you read CPsi and the XPH?


It's very easy to gimp yourself as a wizard, but a psion? You'll have to work hard to suck. And then you get a power that lets you go back in any bad decisions you made. That's easy power. It's right at the grasp of the psion.

Whereas if a wizard picks the wrong spells, he can just... learn the ones that don't suck. Yeah, that's much harder than spending XP to rewrite your powers known.


That the tier system makes no sense and that the max power level of D&D only happens when you have very skilled players to use the rules to their fullest.:smallamused:

No offense, but I think I'll go with CharOp's opinion of the tier system over yours :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2010-05-30, 06:02 PM
No, I was not joking about soulknife being over-powered. Mindblade damage can be stacked with claw damage and unarmed damage. You can get mindblade damage alone up to 16d8 per hit with a 200ft range. Without homebrew.
You can get an armor bonus that stacks with the monks ac bonus, and if you add the kung fu genius feat you can get all monk stuff to opperate off of int which makes this thing great for going into psion for the power points and powers. Oh, and the mindblade? It does force damage.

Its hard to do and you have to do some digging but if you can pull it off it is BUFF.

[Edit]
And you can FLURRY with a mindblade. And did I mention that the 16d8 is at level 6.

When you find the portal that leads back to your home alternate dimension, can I come with you? I'd love to live in a place where soulknives worked anything like you think they do.

Mongoose87
2010-05-30, 06:03 PM
I have never heard of Soulknife Op-Fu this strong, before.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-30, 06:05 PM
When you find the portal that leads back to your home alternate dimension, can I come with you? I'd love to live in a place where soulknives worked anything like you think they do.

And I'd hate to see the strength of the Wizards there. Assuming equal power increases.

Death Monkee
2010-05-30, 06:06 PM
There was a ruling by wizards a while back that a mindblade is both a nat weapon and a manufactured one. Guess they were trying to fix the soulknife. Well that fixed it and more. (I think it was in a Dragon magazine, not sure)

Everything that can apply to nat weapon can apply to a mindblade, including Improved Natural Weapon which gives +1 step in damage.

Then theres a couple supplements that have soulknife feats in them and some of the feats increase the damage by a bit. Add the ability to make ANY spear with one feat(no prereqs). And you now have a spear that does +4 steps in damage in melee and +6 steps for ranged.

Then one feat for nat weapon stacking, another for monk damage stacking.
If you want to be really mean give up the "something" strike a soulknife gets for feats, which is an actual varient. Then theres the fact that soulknife can into assassin very easily, and the fact that Iajutsu Master would be a perfect fit for it.

Combine all this and you have the ultimate master of surprise attacks.

lesser_minion
2010-05-30, 06:07 PM
Uh, you can break anything in 3.5, even Truenaming. The underlying system is what's at fault here, not any given power source.

Incoming pedantry.

The issue is that a massive slice of the game's content is borked either on its own or in combination with other content. The game system itself isn't at fault.

What is at fault is an excessively-short development cycle; a QA team whose eyes weren't exactly on the ball; and the 'ivory tower principle', which is so absolutely, patently, categorically retarded as to defy all expression.

Death Monkee
2010-05-30, 06:08 PM
Sue me I make characters as a hobby.

Pluto
2010-05-30, 06:08 PM
Combine all this and you have the ultimate master of surprise attacks.
Show me (with specifics) and I'll believe you.

Deth Muncher
2010-05-30, 06:10 PM
Then one feat for nat weapon stacking, another for monk damage stacking.
If you want to be really mean give up the "something" strike a soulknife gets for feats, which is an actual varient. Then theres the fact that soulknife can into assassin very easily, and the fact that Iajutsu Master would be a perfect fit for it.

Combine all this and you have the ultimate master of surprise attacks.

Arguably, Iajutsu wouldn't work, since you have to unsheathe the weapon, not just surprise the enemy with it.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-05-30, 06:10 PM
and the 'ivory tower principle', which is so absolutely, patently, categorically retarded as to defy all expression.

Where are the sources that detail this principle?

Death Monkee
2010-05-30, 06:11 PM
Soon as I remember where I stuck my old notepad. I stuck it somewhere when i filled up all the pages.

[Edit]
I always thought that manifesting the blade counted as drawing it. Meh, depends on what your DM thinks of it. Personally I always just went Assassin. The one time I started to use the build I got kicked out of the game.

Greenish
2010-05-30, 06:11 PM
Arguably, Iajutsu wouldn't work, since you have to unsheathe the weapon, not just surprise the enemy with it.And Soul Knife can only manifest the blade once a round, anyway.

HunterOfJello
2010-05-30, 06:14 PM
Magic vs. Psionics vs. ToB thread with a Monk mention. This thread should prove to be very interesting.

Death Monkee
2010-05-30, 06:15 PM
Hey make you all a deal, I cant find the book(must have left it in the boxes when I moved last week). When I find it I'll post the build, shouldnt take me more than a day to figure out which box its in.

Anyways, how high can any of you get caster level by 20? I want to know if i missed any tricks.

[Edit]
Yes, CL 166 by level 20 is possible.

lesser_minion
2010-05-30, 06:16 PM
Sue me I make characters as a hobby.

Because that means so much. There are people who make characters as a profession. They did an exceedingly bad job.


Where are the sources that detail this principle?

You know that my post degenerated into hyperbole there, right?

In any event, it's a design principle, not a rule, and it was explained on one of Monte Cook's blog posts.

It's pretty old, so it'll take a while to dig up, however.

Eldan
2010-05-30, 06:17 PM
From what I've heard, infinity, somehow.

Anyway. 200 feet range? How? I don't think there's a spear in the world able to do that. Soulbow, perhaps.

Greenish
2010-05-30, 06:17 PM
Anyways, how high can any of you get caster level by 20? I want to know if i missed any tricks.What would you do if I said "167"? :smallwink:

[Edit]:
Because that means so much. There are people who make characters as a profession. They did an exceedingly bad job.Have a cookie.

Mongoose87
2010-05-30, 06:17 PM
Hey make you all a deal, I cant find the book(must have left it in the boxes when I moved last week). When I find it I'll post the build, shouldnt take me more than a day to figure out which box its in.


I'm willing to wait to see this.

Death Monkee
2010-05-30, 06:19 PM
I would ask how you did it.

I did it by taking levels in ten different spell casting classes then adding caster level bonuses that applied to all of them. Then I stacked the caster levels. Three times.

[Edit]

Theres a feat that raises mindblade throw range to 200ft.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-30, 06:21 PM
Where are the sources that detail this principle?

Assuming you mean the definition, it's easily Googled/other search engined.

Assuming you mean evidence for this in WotC, they tested with blaster Wizards, meatshield Fighters, healbot Clerics and skillmonkey Rogues, if at all. Despite having themselves introduced new ways to play each class they did not test those ways. That they don't play by their own RAW doesn't really help, and I've read of at least one rule that was introduced because something frustrated a DM who worked on the book the rule was printed in (a DM got surprised by a Wilder using their Overchannel-like ability (can't remember the name) on an Astral Construct power, leading to the much-maligned Complete Psionic nerfing).

Note: This is based on a definition I found to do with taxes after a Google search and my own poor memory, take this as the truth at your own risk.
I do not accept responsibility for those mislead, uninformed, bamboozled or otherwise not at full knowledge concerning the above subject. Any complaints about my information will be dealt with as Psionics advice on the Paizo boards: promptly ignored to be replaced by preconcieved notions that I am correct despite having no figures or facts supporting this.

Greenish
2010-05-30, 06:22 PM
I would ask how you did it.

I did it by taking levels in ten different spell casting classes then adding caster level bonuses that applied to all of them. Then I stacked the caster levels. Three times.Master Spelltief & lots of Practiced Spellcasters?

Death Monkee
2010-05-30, 06:32 PM
Lets see......
Race: Illumian, Krau sigil and Aesh sigil
Classes: Evoker 1/Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1/Fire Shugenja 1/Favored Soul 1/druid 1/Bard 1/War Mage 1/Wu Jen 1/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Mystic Theurge 10(apply to wizard and cleric)
Taint: 40=Casting Stat 50
Variants: Focused Specialist Evoker/Sphere Sorcerer[Evil/Good],
Feats:
Illumian racial trait, +2 caster level in all spellcasting classes.
Fiend Cabalist, +4 caster level for Evil spells, which all my spells are.
Evil Domain, +1 for Evil spells
Fire Domain, +1 for Fire spells
The feat that stacks caster level for all Evil spells, which all my spells are.
The feat that stacks caster level for all Fire spells, which is all I selected(except for bard spells).

thats.....damn it wheres that calculator....CL 198...huh...now to find some spells with no damage cap from caster level.

[Edit]
I suppose you could take practiced caster some, this thing has the feats for it. That would be an increase of +12 caster levels per feat.
[Second Edit]
Wait...did fire domain give +1 caster level? shrug its just one caster level if it didnt.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-30, 06:35 PM
I would ask how you did it.

I did it by taking levels in ten different spell casting classes then adding caster level bonuses that applied to all of them. Then I stacked the caster levels. Three times.

[Edit]

Theres a feat that raises mindblade throw range to 200ft.

I do it with Greater Consumptive Field and a large supply of commoners. Possibly not infinite, but it gets into the thousands easily enough.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-30, 06:36 PM
On the subject of the mindblade being OMGROFLlariously overpowered based on damage, that means nothing if either you can't hit or even see your target. Besides, 16d8 at level 6 is on average 72 HP. Your standard shock-trooper fighter or barbarian could beat that at that point with a gorrammed tree branch.

Now, if a Soulknife could do that damage blindfolded as a touch attack while over coming any number of negative status effects like slow and company while dropping his own on his foes, we'll talk.

Greenish
2010-05-30, 06:36 PM
Lets see......
Race: Illumian, Krau sigil and Aesh sigil
Classes: Evoker 1/Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1/Fire Shugenja 1/Favored Soul 1/druid 1/Bard 1/War Mage 1/Wu Jen 1/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Mystic Theurge 10(apply to wizard and cleric)
Taint: 40=Casting Stat 50
Variants: Focused Specialist Evoker/Sphere Sorcerer[Evil/Good],
Feats:
Illumian racial trait, +2 caster level in all spellcasting classes.
Fiend Cabalist, +4 caster level for Evil spells, which all my spells are.
Evil Domain, +1 for Evil spells
Fire Domain, +1 for Fire spells
The feat that stacks caster level for all Evil spells, which all my spells are.
The feat that stacks caster level for all Fire spells, which is all I selected(except for bard spells).

thats.....damn it wheres that calculator....CL 198...huh...now to find some spells with no damage cap from caster level.

[Edit]
I suppose you could take practiced caster some, this thing has the feats for it. That would be an increase of +12 caster levels per feat.
[Second Edit]
Wait...did fire domain give +1 caster level? shrug its just one caster level if it didnt.What, that's total caster levels? Man, I was thinking you got them all to apply to the same class.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-05-30, 06:37 PM
Lets see......
Race: Illumian, Krau sigil and Aesh sigil
Classes: Evoker 1/Sorcerer 1/Cleric 1/Fire Shugenja 1/Favored Soul 1/druid 1/Bard 1/War Mage 1/Wu Jen 1/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Mystic Theurge 10(apply to wizard and cleric)
Taint: 40=Casting Stat 50
Variants: Focused Specialist Evoker/Sphere Sorcerer[Evil/Good],
Feats:
Illumian racial trait, +2 caster level in all spellcasting classes.
Fiend Cabalist, +4 caster level for Evil spells, which all my spells are.
Evil Domain, +1 for Evil spells
Fire Domain, +1 for Fire spells
The feat that stacks caster level for all Evil spells, which all my spells are.
The feat that stacks caster level for all Fire spells, which is all I selected(except for bard spells).

thats.....damn it wheres that calculator....CL 198...huh...now to find some spells with no damage cap from caster level.

[Edit]
I suppose you could take practiced caster some, this thing has the feats for it. That would be an increase of +12 caster levels per feat.

Regardless of the legality of the build and the rather vague feat descriptions, Wings of Flurry apparently has no damage cap, and this build is most definitely best used as a buffer. Go Focused Specialist Transmuter and have buffs going on near enough all day.

Edit: Just read the post above mine, you are aware that caster level for each individual class is the second most important thing (the most important being actual spellcasting levels, which your build is somewhat lacking in)? Total caster level over multiple classes is irrelevant, it literally never comes up.

Death Monkee
2010-05-30, 06:39 PM
Um....it uses that caster level for every Evil Fire spell. Which since all spells are evil......is every fire spell. I suppose you could tweak it some and double it again for every fire druid spell but thats going a little far.

[Edit]
Sue me I couldnt remember the feat names. I should have added School Theurgist shouldnt i.....it would stack it again for evocation spells.....which most fire spells are.

[Second Edit]
The caster level differs depending which theurgist feats you took and what spells you learn.

[Third Edit]
And the buffer idea is a good one, thanks. And with the ability to use your taint score as your casting stat this thing gets a ton of bonus spells per day, going epic this thing just needs to get access to higher level casting.

Optimystik
2010-05-30, 06:53 PM
Incoming pedantry.

The issue is that a massive slice of the game's content is borked either on its own or in combination with other content. The game system itself isn't at fault.

What is at fault is an excessively-short development cycle; a QA team whose eyes weren't exactly on the ball; and the 'ivory tower principle', which is so absolutely, patently, categorically retarded as to defy all expression.

Fair enough. I agree that 3.5 COULD be balanced with enough playtesting. Fax's d20r is a step in the right direction.

Heliomance
2010-05-30, 06:56 PM
I'd be more convinced if you could cite the feats that stack caster levels for evil and fire spells, I've never heard of them before. Also, your taint is only your casting stat for Tainted Sorcerer, and you only have first level Tainted Sorcerer spells. In fact, at level 20, you only have 6th level anything spells. This is incredibly, unbelievably underwhelming.

Death Monkee
2010-05-30, 06:59 PM
tainted sorcerer doesnt get its own spells it gets a +1 spellcasting level every level

And the taint score as casting stat applies to ALL spellcasting....at least according to the wording on d20srd.org.

Which means if my calculations are correct this thing has 45 first level bonus spells.

[Edit]
checked dandwiki.com, same wording for tainted sorcerer. and yes this thing doesnt have very high level spell, it comes into its own with the cap-less spells. And I designed it for my room-mate who feels a strange urge to take 1 level in everything every game. This way he actually gets something out of it.

Greenish
2010-05-30, 07:01 PM
Which means if my calculations are correct this thing has 45 first level bonus spells.45 first level spells at level 20. I'm overwhelmed by the power.

Heliomance
2010-05-30, 07:02 PM
I stand corrected, haven't actually read the Tainted Sorcerer. However, my other point still stands. At level 20, you have around 60 first level spells. Wow. How useful are those really going to be? You can't cast anything higher than 6th level spells at level 20, you're so much meat paste.

Death Monkee
2010-05-30, 07:04 PM
like i said this isnt for me, i like my caster level 89 wizard/urpreist/mystic theurge who casts as a level 19 wizard and a level 18 cleric.

[Edit]
The feat names are....
Aligned Theurgy: stack caster levels for evil, good, law, or chaos spells must have cleric domain to take feat.
Druidic Theurgy: stack caster levels for druid spells.
Elemental Theurgy: stacks caster levels for fire, earth, air or water spells must have domain.
Theurgic Specialist: stack caster levels for specialty school.

Fouredged Sword
2010-05-30, 07:12 PM
Spellthief level one and masterspell thief. All levels in arcane casting classes stack for caster level. Add that in somewhere.

Back to the main topic, couldn't a crusader/psion make a decent healer. He takes wounds into himself and heals them, and in combat he heals useing crusader strikes. He'd be an in your face healer/warior.

Death Monkee
2010-05-30, 07:17 PM
Thanks, gonna have to look that feat up later, anyways back to the original conversation.

Have you considered removing magic and psionics and using Psychic Powers?
It was either green ronin or mongoose that released a book of psychic powers that you actually had skill ranks for and had to roll to use. The list of skills was pretty good sized and the way they limited uses was pretty cool. Every time you used a power you took non-lethal damage.

[Edit]
jinx, and I'll post that build when i find the notebook. later.

Heliomance
2010-05-30, 07:20 PM
like i said this isnt for me, i like my caster level 89 wizard/urpreist/mystic theurge who casts as a level 19 wizard and a level 18 cleric.

[Edit]
The feat names are....
Aligned Theurgy: stack caster levels for evil, good, law, or chaos spells must have cleric domain to take feat.
Druidic Theurgy: stack caster levels for druid spells.
Elemental Theurgy: stacks caster levels for fire, earth, air or water spells must have domain.
Theurgic Specialist: stack caster levels for specialty school.

Where are they from?


Thanks, gonna have to look that feat up later, anyways back to the original conversation.

Have you considered removing magic and psionics and using Psychic Powers?
It was either green ronin or mongoose that released a book of psychic powers that you actually had skill ranks for and had to roll to use. The list of skills was pretty good sized and the way they limited uses was pretty cool. Every time you used a power you took non-lethal damage.

[Edit]
jinx, and I'll post that build when i find the notebook. later.

Be a necropolitan, and so immune to non-lethal damage. Twink out your skill checks - it's easy to get them high. Laugh.

Greenish
2010-05-30, 07:26 PM
Where are they from?Dragon Mag. #325.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-30, 07:31 PM
Where are they from?


Dragon Magazine, according to Crystalkeep.

And aside from the Druidic Theurgy, which only stacks caster levels on spells which appear on both the Druid spell list and the other casters' spell list, it looks like he's mostly correct.

Eldan
2010-05-31, 04:30 AM
I'm still sure I've seen Ur-Priest shenanigans (I like that word!) which got both a higher caster level than that and 9th level spells.

Claudius Maximus
2010-05-31, 04:57 AM
There is an ability in Complete Champion that adds you intelligence modifier to caster level, and a spell in Book of Vile Darkness that if used correctly can add twice your caster level to intelligence. Given time the combo can become arbitrarily high if you get the starting point high enough (you'll need CL 72, which really isn't very hard to get).

Eldan
2010-05-31, 05:30 AM
Actually, since you can also get your intelligence arbitrarily high, you only need the CChamp ability, then.

Optimystik
2010-05-31, 09:35 AM
There is an ability in Complete Champion that adds you intelligence modifier to caster level, and a spell in Book of Vile Darkness that if used correctly can add twice your caster level to intelligence. Given time the combo can become arbitrarily high if you get the starting point high enough (you'll need CL 72, which really isn't very hard to get).

Have an Archivist with these abilities use Greater Consumptive Field near a termite mound, and then...