New alignment system

[tribble]

I wasn't sure whether to put this in the tabletop section or here, but because it's me who's writing it, I put it here. If you disagree, get a mod, I guess.

So I see a ton of alignment debates. I see a ton of vitriol. I get kind of tired of this, and decide to come up with a different system.

In this system, we measure authoritarian viewpoint (Authoritarian->Neutral->Anarchic) versus "moral fiber" (Nice Guy-Neutral-Tool).

working towards a system against a lack thereof is Authoritarian, working for one system over another is neutral and doesn't affect alignment, and working to remove a system with no plan to replace it or just resisting the sytem (by circumvention or defiance) is Anarchic.

The second part of alignment is determined by how you go about doing that. A man who fights crime by finding legal ways for criminals to get by is an Authoritarian Nice Guy. A man who fights crime by fighting criminals is an Authoritarian Tool. A man who steals to feed other people who can't feed themselves is an Anarchic Nice Guy, while a man who steals "because" is an Anarchic Tool. A man who steals and redistributes based on who he thinks deserves the wealth can range from a Neutral Nice Guy to a Neutral Tool depending on how he goes about it (EG: a tool behaves self-righteously.)

Paladins can be Nice Guys, Tools, or in between, but they must be Authoritarian. (Yes, I am aware that this makes paladins range all the way from Superman through Miko Miyakazi to Claude Frollo.) They can detect supernatural influence instead of "evil". (IE: they can detect demonic, diabolical, or undead influence, but cannot know with a mere focusing of will that random thug #24601 is evil. To balance, DMs may wish to make "detect whatever you want to call it" a passive ability.)
Assasins cannot be Nice Guys, because murdering strangers for cash is not nice. whether they are authoritarian or not depends on whether the powers that be tolerate them or (at least officially) seek to stamp them out.
Obviously, rogues must be Anarchic, but they can be nice, tools, or neutral.

Hopefully, what I'm going for is clear by now. I think this solves a lot of problems I have with the 3X system, such as "Lawful Evil finds an ordered society easier to dupe" (HOW is cheating the system not chaotic? How?)

Anyway, this is the part where I ask you fine folks to rip my idea to shreds so I can rebuild it harder, better, faster, and stronger.

[AstralFire]

The 'Tool' - 'Nice Guy' axis just makes me kind of cringe. Especially because fighting criminals automatically makes you a tool. Wha?

I also feel like measuring someone's attitude towards government is odd. A lot of people (and games) just don't care. It doesn't make sense as an ethical axis, not with 'I like order, just not the order we have right now' pinging 'neutral.'

I do like the Paladin Detect Evil <-> Detect Supernatural change, but that's it.

[Riffington]

(HOW is cheating the system not chaotic? How?)

It is. Some people are just confused.

Ok, for the shreds:
*Why do rogues have to be anarchic? Or do you just mean thieves?
*What is a system? Is the wilderness a system? Is the free market a system?
*What is niceness? Is it the same as goodness? Is refusing a stranger's sexual advances non-nice? Is stopping a criminal non-nice?

[Merk]

All I'm hearing is "let's change some words" with some rules changes for paladins and rogues:

Lawful = Authoritarian
Chaotic = Anarchic
Good = Nice Guy
Evil = Tool

How is this not the case?

[Ouranos]

Well, the law to Chaos axis doesn't mean You follow the laws or not. It;s are you discplined, orderly, or wild and carefree. Good to evil is obvious, but Law to Chaos isn't what most people think. A paladin would gladly break a law if it was wrong.

Found this several years ago too btw, may help explain alignments at the VERY most basic level.
http://dndadventure.com/html/articles/alignment.html

[Corporate M]

Replace alignment with tropes. Ask your players to use key tropes to describe their alignment for simplicity's sake.

Axe crazy+Nietzsche wannabe? Chaotic Evil.

Axe crazy+Love Freak? Chaotic good.

I contribute alot to that damn site. (Even though the bastards don't appreciate me and I had to change my name just to avoid bans) Nearly half of the matirial was either written by or atleast updated by me. Rorschach for example, may not be lawful good to some. I say he's lawful good. But then I see him as lawful good because he's morally absolute, and has a rigid personal code. I'm a literalist in alignment. Where as someone would see hacking up someone, even a childkiller with a hatchet as crossing the line and not allow him to be lawful good. So we look at his tropes.

Knight Templar+Conspiracy Theorist.

Could constitute as lawful neutral if you focus on his knight templarness, or lawful evil if he gets distracted. (As most PCs would)


I myself got chaotic evil recently on a test, and the tropes I ussually invoke are Devil in plain sight+Laughably Evil. (With a philsophy thats basically Evil versus evil+EmotionvsStoiscm) So obviously CE seems relatively accurate. But it's not the same chaotic evil as say, the ax crazy, or say, the guy Rorschach just cut into giblets... Alignments are not equally distrubuted be it as they may them falling into the same categories...



I mean I really shouldn't have to say this stuff. But atleast I can expect people here to either see my point or think "whatever". Rather then the usual insults or mod attacks I receive. But the point I'm trying to make is it's not alignment thats wrong, it's peoples idea that it has to be fantastic, completely accurate, and equal every single time...

[Bogardan_Mage]

All I'm hearing is "let's change some words" with some rules changes for paladins and rogues:

Lawful = Authoritarian
Chaotic = Anarchic
Good = Nice Guy
Evil = Tool

How is this not the case?
It depends greatly in the sides you take in the unending alignment arguments, but you're quite right that this makes just as much sense (arguably more, I'd say) with the old labels, and really ought to be a reinterpretation of the existing system rather than a new system in its own right.

[Athaniar]

A paladin would gladly break a law if it was wrong.

How is that to "respect legitimate authority"?


Replace alignment with tropes. Ask your players to use key tropes to describe their alignment for simplicity's sake.

Not a bad idea, actually. Do you have a list of appropriate tropes?

[Yora]

How is that to "respect legitimate authority"?
The key words are legtimate and wrong.

[Haarkla]

All I'm hearing is "let's change some words" with some rules changes for paladins and rogues:

Lawful = Authoritarian
Chaotic = Anarchic
Good = Nice Guy
Evil = Tool

How is this not the case?
+1. I agree.

[Mongoose87]

All I'm hearing is "let's change some words" with some rules changes for paladins and rogues:

Lawful = Authoritarian
Chaotic = Anarchic
Good = Nice Guy
Evil = Tool

How is this not the case?

Because some Good people are tools and some Evil people come across as nice guys?

[Ouranos]

If the authorities in power are passing laws that violate a paladin's morals, chances are the law-passers aren't legitimate. For example, Robin Hood could very nearly be a paladin based on his personality, yet he himself was an Outlaw. Yet everything about him screams lawful good.

[Anonymouswizard]

All I'm hearing is "let's change some words" with some rules changes for paladins and rogues:

Lawful = Authoritarian
Chaotic = Anarchic
Good = Nice Guy
Evil = Tool

How is this not the case?

*Casts Detect Word Change on the new system*

You seem to be correct.

*Casts Detect Alignment on tribble*

?
Authoritarian Tool?

[Corporate M]

Not a bad idea, actually. Do you have a list of appropriate tropes?
Well there's way too many for me to list like I'd want too. But lets say someone is evil alignment.


Lawful Evil:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilInc
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadSamaritan
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvenEvilHasStandards

Neutral Evil:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeautyIsBad
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilerThanThou
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvillyAffable

Chaotic Evil:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BadPowersBadPeople
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DickDastardlyStopsToCheat
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoomsdayDevice


Just some examples. Albeit you could mix and match them and decide for yourself what alignment you are. This just sortof helps determine it with less feelings of "my character is this and this because he's evil" and more of "my character is evil because of this and this". It compliments a character with detail and drive rather then you trying to justify your alignment label.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoveMakesYouEvil
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AntiVillain
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoveFreak

Like rightnow im trying to get into a game invoking those as his central tropes. A guy who proves "even evil has standards". But those standards don't translate well with good characters. For example killing someone instead of just disabling them in combat. Because weakness and having to rely on others mercy is a disgusting feeling noone should have to endure. It's all very romantic of wanting to cling to his girl, keep his pride, and get his way. But it's all done very deceptively and involving murdering the people he loves (or rather the people his loved ones love...)

So he borders between lawful evil and lawful neutral. Probably more LE, especially considering his clan seems to be NE to CE of applauding depravity, brutality, and morally questionable acts. As long as it's done with jazz hands... This guys like Sessemaru from inuyasha+Lethal Attraction. And his clan is like the ginyu force. People have good reason to worry... lol!

[ForzaFiori]

If the authorities in power are passing laws that violate a paladin's morals, chances are the law-passers aren't legitimate. For example, Robin Hood could very nearly be a paladin based on his personality, yet he himself was an Outlaw. Yet everything about him screams lawful good.

Except that the chaotic alignment is described almost exactly by what your saying lawful people do.

Chaotic means that you resist laws you think are wrong by simply pretending they aren't there. Robin Hood's stealing, or Rosa Park's sitting in the front of bus.

Lawful means that you resist laws you think are wrong through legal means. Brown v Board, the Dred Scott case (granted, Dred Scott lost, but still)

A paladin would obey a law he thought was wrong, as long as it didn't violate his code of conduct (for instance, he would disobey a law that says 'slaughter an infant ever tuesday', but not 'it is illegal to go through the King's Forest'). However, he might petition the king or ruler to change said law.

[Bogardan_Mage]

How is that to "respect legitimate authority"?
A legitimate authority can be evil.


Because some Good people are tools and some Evil people come across as nice guys?
You're missing the point. They're just labels, there's no need to call this a "new alignment system" just because the names and some minor details have changed.

[Roderick_BR]

So, all hero-like characters that try to respect the local law, and make plans, and doesn't "make things as he goes", is Authoritarian?

And there's no evil guys, only tools?

Wha?

[Anonymouswizard]

And there's no evil guys, only tools?

Wha?

No, all evil guys are called tools (get it right).

[Lord_Gareth]

Don't make me bust out the Color Wheel on ya'll. I'll do it >.>

[Athaniar]

Ah, yes. Magic's color wheel is still my favorite alignment system.

[Lord_Gareth]

Me too, my friend, me too. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136177)

[enigmatime]

Me too, my friend, me too. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136177)

You know, that is actually pretty cool. This is off topic but I am going to use that in my next game. In regards to this thread though, as was said before, you're not really making a new alignment system, just changing words and editing an already made alignment system. However, might I suggest that, if you were to use this, change Tool to something more approriatte (spelling fail). Such as, Bad Guy, Evil Guy, or whatever. You don't want to call Cthulhu an Anarchic Tool, do you? :smallconfused:

[tribble]

Lawful = Authoritarian
Chaotic = Anarchic
Good = Nice Guy
Evil = Tool


The point I'm driving for is to cut down on bull sessions on whether an action is "evil" or "chaotic". We've all heard stories about characters who bum rush and murder gods of good and say "lolchaoticneutral". I'm well aware that this is very, very similar to the DnD version. I don't get why Anon is calling me Sauron for proposing the change, though.

And no, refusing sexual advances is not a tool move unless you're a total jerk about it, and yes, fighting people is a tool move, but if you get in fights from time to time, it does not alter alignment. If fighting, bullying, etc. are your primary methods of getting stuff done, THEN you are a tool. If your interactions neither lean heavily towards nastiness nor toward being nice about it, your alignment on that axis is neutral. an example of a non-tool who fights would be Vash the Stampede from Trigun.


So, all hero-like characters that try to respect the local law, and make plans, and doesn't "make things as he goes", is Authoritarian?
Just existing according to what's already in place is not authoritarian or anarchic, it's neutral.


The point of the scale I made is to make alignment more than a label, and to make it something that tells you something about the character. saying a D&D PC is "chaotic good" can mean he's anything from robin hood to vash the stampede to Karl Marx to V to "lolrandumb but I'm always the good guy because I say so" crud that leads directly to hour-long debates on morality that end when somebody leaves the campaign. My alignment chart, "Anarchic Nice guy" rules out robin hood (neutral) and it rules out V and "lolrandom claims he's "good"" (Tools). this is because Robin hood screws over travelers in his forest (tool) in order to donate to starving plebians (nice). This system is meant to delineate a messiah from a conan, not to delineate Superman from Hitler. I mean, why exactly do we need a system for that?