Tome of Magic: Truenamer Questions

[MiniMoose]

Hello, I was looking at the truenamer in the Tome of Magic and had some questions I couldnt find answers to:

1) It mentions a truespeak check everytime you use an utterance. I can only find modifier to the DC, like +5 to utter defensivley or +10 to apply metamagic, but I cannot find anywhere the base DC for it.

2) Do you get an unlimited amount of uses for each utterance per day? I can't find the rule anywhere in the book, so i'm assuming either unlimited uses for 1 use each. 1 use each seems way underpowered at low levels and unlimited uses seems way overpowered at high levels.

[Flickerdart]

The base DC of an Utterance is 15+2xCR of your target. This DC increases by 2 with each subsequent successful use of that Utterance, and you can try to use one as often as you want.

So, for example, take a 10th level Truenamer. The DC for him to use Lesser Word of Nurturing on his 10th level Fighter friend (CR10) is 35. If he succeeded, the Lesser Word of Nurturing would have a DC of 37 when he tried to use it again (regardless of who he wanted to use it on) but a different utterance (say, Seek the Sky) would still be DC35. However, when you consider that the Truenamer's base skill ranks are only 13, with Skill Focus Truenaming (+3), an Amulet of the Silver Tongue (+5) and his INT (let's say +7) he's still going to fail almost half the time on the initial check, much less subsequent ones.

[Greenish]

1 use each seems way underpowered at low levels and unlimited uses seems way overpowered at high levels.Unlimited uses are rather overpowered, but if you can repeatedly make the check at high levels you're using some insane optimization.

[The Glyphstone]

It only looks overpowered until you see the DC's you have to make - DC45 at lvl15, DC55 at lvl20, for your first use of the utterance that day, and then you realize that each time you use that "unlimited" utterance again, the DC goes up by 2.

[Zeta Kai]

Dude, seriously, run away. Away from the Truenamer class, away from these forums, just run. Save yourself & run. Fast. :smalleek:

To provide context for why your should run, this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269) will provide not only the answers that you seek, but also an in-depth analysis that explains in excruciating detail exactly why the Truenamer is the absolute worst class ever published.

[MiniMoose]

Wouldn't that DC eventually get nearly impossible? I mean things that are CR 4 could easily have 8 HD, making the DC 31. At 4th level with 7 ranks and a high int you probably only get +11, which means you'd need to roll a 20. How can truenamers even make these at higher levels?

[Zaq]

Unlimited uses are rather overpowered, but if you can repeatedly make the check at high levels you're using some insane optimization.

I can tell you from experience that this is not even close to the case. Warlocks can use their tricks all day, and most of the time, those tricks are better than Utterances... and Warlocks are nowhere near overpowered.

There are some gems, but even they aren't so good as to say that using them over and over is overpowered. Not with the damned Law of Sequence in place, anyway.


Wouldn't that DC eventually get nearly impossible? I mean things that are CR 4 could easily have 8 HD, making the DC 31. At 4th level with 7 ranks and a high int you probably only get +11, which means you'd need to roll a 20. How can truenamers even make these at higher levels?

The stupidly high Utterance DCs are just the first hurdle facing a Truenamer. There are ways around them, but they're not cheap.

May I ask why you're playing a Truenamer? Is it because they look cool, or because you want to challenge yourself by playing one of the weakest classes in the game? Either way, I'd recommend that you check out the link in my signature. It'll explain a lot about how Truenamers can work. I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have, but I will say that Truenamers are not a good class and are very difficult to use in a way that's actually fun from game to game. If your heart's set on it, I can try to help you, but I don't recommend the Truenamer as a class.

[Greenish]

I can tell you from experience that this is not even close to the case. Warlocks can use their tricks all day, and most of the time, those tricks are better than Utterances... and Warlocks are nowhere near overpowered.I didn't mean unlimited uses in general, obviously (monks get unlimited uses of pelvic thrusts). I meant some of the Truenamer ones, like Gate.

[Adumbration]

There are also a few gems in there, such as no-save no-SR Slow.

[Starbuck_II]

Wouldn't that DC eventually get nearly impossible? I mean things that are CR 4 could easily have 8 HD, making the DC 31. At 4th level with 7 ranks and a high int you probably only get +11, which means you'd need to roll a 20. How can truenamers even make these at higher levels?

CR 4 = 23.
CR 8= 31.

You only use Hd for allies.

[Draz74]

There are also a few gems in there, such as no-save no-SR Slow.

But with the exception of Gate (which is only available at L20), Zaq's point stands that these Truenamer "gems" are no better than a Warlock's decent Invocations at the same level.


Wouldn't that DC eventually get nearly impossible? I mean things that are CR 4 could easily have 8 HD, making the DC 31. At 4th level with 7 ranks and a high int you probably only get +11, which means you'd need to roll a 20. How can truenamers even make these at higher levels?

In approximate ascending order of cheesiness:

Ranks.
Intelligence Bonus.
Skill Focus.
Silvertongue Amulet (from the Tome of Magic itself).
The Universal Aptitude utterance used as a self-buff.
Various items (like Luckstone and Pale Green Ioun Stone) that give small buffs to all skills.
Various special abilities that buff skill checks, like the Marshal's Motivate Intelligence aura.
Various spells (cast by allies, or UMD) that buff skill checks, like Heroism or Improvisation.
Custom magic items.
Item Familiars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm).
Crazier shenanigans.


Depending how high up this ladder of cheesiness your optimization ruthlessness climbs, making insanely high Truespeak checks can become pretty manageable. Then you just have to worry about how Utterances' effects still aren't all that impressive.

[Zaq]

I didn't mean unlimited uses in general, obviously (monks get unlimited uses of pelvic thrusts). I meant some of the Truenamer ones, like Gate.

Conjunctive Gate is never relevant to Truenamer discussions. Yes, cost-free Gate many times per day is stupidly overpowered, but you cannot see it before 20th level. Period. A level 19 Truenamer doesn't get it. If you're playing at 20th level, a few Gates here and there is the LEAST of your worries. (Not to mention that you can only have one open at a time, thanks to the Law of Sequence... How that works with Gate's sorta-instantaneous-sorta-not duration is ambiguous and stupid.) An ability that only comes into play at 20th level is not relevant to how good or how bad a class is.


There are also a few gems in there, such as no-save no-SR Slow.

That's one of the better ones, yes. Of course, it's still only on one target. For three rounds. During which point you cannot cast it again. Or use Haste on your allies. One of the best abilities, but by no means overpowered, no matter how many per day you get.

[DragoonWraith]

There are a number of homebrew fixes for Truenaming: Kellus's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90961) and Kyeudo's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120488) seem to be the most popular.

[Aharon]

Actually, due to bad editing, you can get some decent Truenamers with optimization:

There is a variant from Complete Arcane, magic ceramic tiles instead of potions. Those have to be broken to be activated. The 3rd level Lexicon of the Crafted Tool Utterance Rebuild Item lets you restore an item destroyed in the last round to perfect functionality, including magic properties. Complete Arcane states about tiles that

While it’s possible to introduce new item creation feats into a game, so long as new forms of existing magic items follow all the rules for use as their original forms, new rules shouldn’t be required. A potion in the shape of a tile you snap to activate is mechanically identical to a potion you drink—you need no special magical training to use it, its magic is used up by the activation, and using it is a moderately distracting physical task that provokes attacks of opportunity from any nearby foes. The tile might be slightly more useful in some situations (underwater, for instance, or in the hands of a creature that has no way to ingest the contents of a potion vial), but the difference is too minor to justify the existence of a Craft Magic Tile feat. Tiles and potions both fill the same game niche.

so I assume this is possible. Obviously, for the Truenamer the ability to rebuild it is one of the situations where the tile is not only slightly, but far more useful than the potion).

If you have a DM who allows magic marts, you can even buy tiles containing infusions: they can be bought from an Alchemist Savant who uses Brew Universal Potion to create Tiles instead of Potions.

Also note that the law of sequence is not as hard as it seems at first: you can use the option to increase the effective spell level of utterances by raising the Truespeak check by 4 (ToM p. 233). The paragraph about the law of Sequence (p.233/234) says that

„It's also okay to use a higher-level version of an utterance while a lower-level version is active, or vice versa, because these constitute different utterances.“
It was obviously intended for the different versions of the Words of Nurturing, but, RAW, applies to utterances whose effective spell level has been raised in the way detailed above. This means that the law of sequence (los) applies seperately for those utterances, and thereby changes the progression from 0,2,4,6... to 0,2,4,4,6,6,8,8,8...(0 – standard use. 0+2 – standard use, +2 due to los, +4 – standard use, +4 due to los, +4 – heightened, +6 – standard use, +6 due to los, +6 – heigtened use +4, +2 due to los, +8 – standard use, +8 due to los, +8 – heightened use +4, +4 due to los, +8 – heightened two levels +8). This raises the number of Rebuild Item utterances you can use per day considerably.
It also makes many utterance boni stack, as they provide unnamed boni that are specifically from different aptitudes.
It also allows a very effective use of a feat from Book of Vile Darkness, Mortalbane - it allows you to add 2d6 damage to each of your spell-likes 5 times per day. As your heightened spell-likes are specifically different from the base utterances, your damage can be increased either moderately lots of times, or by up to 10d6 each.
Perhaps most importantly, it defeats the law of sequence - you can use the same utterance however often you want, as long as you heighten it.

You can also store utterances in wands and scepters (only short section on this). This is especially useful for the many good truenamer buffs: this way, you can persist them via a tile of Metamagic Item (Persistent Spell), which you rebuild immediately afterwards, of course. A little discourse on why this is allowed, in my opinion:

In Complete Arcane, it is stated that sudden metamagic feats work on spell-like abilities. The relevant quotes are in Complete Arcane, page 71.
Sudden Metamagic Feats: These metamagic feats don’t require modified spell slots, and so they work as well with spell-like abilities or invocations as they do with spells (though because spell-like abilities don’t have verbal or somatic components, Sudden Silent Spell doesn’t apply and Sudden Still Spell applies only to invocations). Creatures with spell-like abilities at a high enough level will find sudden metamagic feats less useful than the dedicated feats Empower Spell-Like Ability and Quicken Spell-Like Ability (see page 303 of the Monster Manual), as well as the Maximize Spell-Like Ability feat introduced in
this chapter. Other Metamagic Feats: Except as noted above, metamagic feats can’t generally be used to modify spell-like
abilities or invocations.
Using Metamagic Item on a Wand doesn't require a modified spell slot, the same way as sudden metamagic feats don't require a modified spell slot, so I figured utterances stored in items are eligible targets - it's a specific case that meets the same requirement (the spell slot isn't modified) as sudden metamagic feats, but they obviously couldn't mention it, as it hadn't been printed yet. As specific beats general, I thought it should be ok.

Potions - and thus tiles - of 9th level spells can be created by master alchemists (Magic of Faerun).

[Eurus]

As long as we're speaking of magic items, let's not forget the absolutely ridiculous limitation on spell trigger/completion items of utterances. Specifically, that they have to be designed to target one specific person and can never be used on anyone else...

[Flickerdart]

As long as we're speaking of magic items, let's not forget the absolutely ridiculous limitation on spell trigger/completion items of utterances. Specifically, that they have to be designed to target one specific person and can never be used on anyone else...
On the bright side, you can mass-manufacture items that make your party's "Black Mage" puke his organs whenever anyone uses them, and stick that property underneath a useful item per MIC rules. :smallbiggrin:

[Radar]

@Aharon
So... there was an utterance, that gave a bonus to skill checks - for example to Truespeak. If differently hightened utterances stack and the bonus is at least a +4, you can start an infinite chain of bonuses, since each subsequent hightening is compensated by an ever-increasing bonus. If it is true, then Truenamers can be broken in more then one way. :smallbiggrin:

Renewable magic items are neat as well. :smallsmile:

[Kobold-Bard]

There are a number of homebrew fixes for Truenaming: Kellus's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90961) and Kyeudo's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120488) seem to be the most popular.

Use Kyeudo's, it uses the same style as the original but with a DC system that's more manageable without obscene optimization.

I'm playing a Kyeudo Truenamer and it's sweeet.

[Zaq]

Oh my. Well, let's begin.


Actually, due to bad editing, you can get some decent Truenamers with optimization:

There is a variant from Complete Arcane, magic ceramic tiles instead of potions. Those have to be broken to be activated. The 3rd level Lexicon of the Crafted Tool Utterance Rebuild Item lets you restore an item destroyed in the last round to perfect functionality, including magic properties. Complete Arcane states about tiles that „While it’s possible to introduce new item creation feats into a game, so long as new forms of existing magic items follow all the rules for use as their original forms, new rules shouldn’t be required. A potion in the shape of a tile you snap to activate is mechanically identical to a potion you drink—you need no special magical training to use it, its magic is used up by the activation, and using it is a moderately distracting physical task that provokes attacks of opportunity from any nearby foes. The tile might be slightly more useful in some situations (underwater, for instance, or in the hands of a creature that has no way to ingest the contents of a potion vial), but the difference is too minor to justify the existence of a Craft Magic Tile feat. Tiles and potions both fill the same game niche.“, so I assume this is possible. Obviously, for the Truenamer the ability to rebuild it is one of the situations where the tile is not only slightly, but far more useful than the potion).

Ah, this trick. Yes, this should work. There's that sentence in the DMG (p.229) that says "a potion or oil can be used only once," but the "retains all magical properties" clause in Rebuild Item probably overrides that. We agree so far. Generally speaking, it's not worth it (because you have to spend a standard action on a potion/tile/whatever, then another action to fix it within one round... and you still only get a potion, nothing fancy), but I do think that this is legit. By the time you have Rebuild Item, of course, potions are very rarely worth using, Master Alchemist notwithstanding... and I'd really rather not rely on access to a high-level member of an obscure prestige class from a 3.0 book from a specific campaign setting, you know?



If you have a DM who allows magic marts, you can even buy tiles containing infusions: they can be bought from an Alchemist Savant who uses Brew Universal Potion to create Tiles instead of Potions.

Dicey at best, really, but legal. Again, you're relying on a high-level member of a prestige class, but if you can get it, I'm not going to deny a Truenamer a unique trick.


Also note that the law of sequence is not as hard as it seems at first: you can use the option to increase the effective spell level of utterances by raising the Truespeak check by 4 (ToM p. 233). The paragraph about the law of Sequence (p.233/234) says that „It's also okay to use a higher-level version of an utterance while a lower-level version is active, or vice versa, because these constitute different utterances.“ It was obviously intended for the different versions of the Words of Nurturing, but, RAW, applies to utterances whose effective spell level has been raised in the way detailed above. This means that the law of sequence (los) applies seperately for those utterances, and thereby changes the progression from 0,2,4,6... to 0,2,4,4,6,6,8,8,8...(0 – standard use. 0+2 – standard use, +2 due to los, +4 – standard use, +4 due to los, +4 – heightened, +6 – standard use, +6 due to los, +6 – heigtened use +4, +2 due to los, +8 – standard use, +8 due to los, +8 – heightened use +4, +4 due to los, +8 – heightened two levels +8). This raises the number of Rebuild Item utterances you can use per day considerably.

It also makes many utterance boni stack, as they provide unnamed boni that are specifically from different aptitudes.

This old trick again? I do not believe it works, because the "Effective Spell Level" blurb is referring to just that, effective spell level, while the Law of Sequence piece on the same (and following) page is referring to the utterance's level. D&D has many different kinds of "levels," after all: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) spell level, caster level, class level, character level, and spellcaster level (different from caster level) all immediately leap to mind, as well as things that are derived from those (manifester level, maneuver level, etc.). While I have been known to take advantage of the poor editing in the Truenamer chapter once or twice (see my sig for the reason that Spell Rebirth is basically the Truenamer's Iron Heart Surge), I think that it is eminently clear that effective spell level and utterance level are not the same thing, and that while this is poorly edited, it does not invalidate or skirt around the Law of Sequence.

Out of curiosity, using the same logic, would you also say that a character under the effects of Haste (cast from a 3rd level slot) and Heightened +1 Haste (from a 4th level slot) gets a +2 untyped bonus on attack rolls and a +2 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex (dodge bonuses explicitly stack, recall)? Sure, the spell says that multiple Haste effects don't stack, but it's Haste and Heightened Haste, right? Or am I misunderstanding your meaning?


It may be hair-splitting, but creating items of heightened utterances does not violate the rule of no items with metamagic, as heightening them isn't a metamagic effect, but achieved through a higher Truespeak check.

What rule of no items with metamagic? If the changed slot fits into the item, then it works, so far as I know. (If you wanted to, you could make a potion of Empowered CLW. You shouldn't, but you could.) Also, notice that the "effective spell level" bar says that the effective spell level changes for the purposes of interacting with other spells and abilities, not for all purposes. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.


It also allows a very effective use of a feat from Book of Vile Darkness, Mortalbane - it allows you to add 2d6 damage to each of your spell-likes 5 times per day. As your heightened spell-likes are specifically different from the base utterances, your damage can be increased either moderately lots of times, or by up to 10d6 each.
Perhaps most importantly, it defeats the law of sequence - you can use the same utterance however often you want, as long as you heighten it.

I disagree for the reasons noted above. I do not believe that the line "It's okay to use a higher-level version of an utterance while a lower-level version is active, or vice versa, because these constitute different utterances" applies to utterances whose effective spell levels have changed.



You can also store utterances in wands and scepters (only short section on this). This is especially useful for the many good truenamer buffs: this way, you can persist them via a tile of Metamagic Item (Persistent Spell), which you rebuild immediately afterwards, of course. A little discourse on why this is allowed, in my opinion:

In Complete Arcane, it is stated that sudden metamagic feats work on spell-like abilities. The relevant quotes are in Complete Arcane, page 71. Sudden Metamagic Feats: These metamagic feats don’t require modified spell slots, and so they work as well with spell-like abilities or invocations as they do with spells (though because spell-like abilities don’t have verbal or somatic components, Sudden Silent Spell doesn’t apply and Sudden Still Spell applies only to invocations). Creatures with spell-like abilities at a high enough level will find sudden metamagic feats less useful than the dedicated feats Empower Spell-Like Ability and Quicken Spell-Like Ability (see page 303 of the Monster Manual), as well as the Maximize Spell-Like Ability feat introduced in
this chapter. Other Metamagic Feats: Except as noted above, metamagic feats can’t generally be used to modify spell-like
abilities or invocations.
Using Metamagic Item on a Wand doesn't require a modified spell slot, the same way as sudden metamagic feats don't require a modified spell slot, so I figured utterances stored in items are eligible targets - it's a specific case that meets the same requirement (the spell slot isn't modified) as sudden metamagic feats, but they obviously couldn't mention it, as it hadn't been printed yet. As specific beats general, I thought it should be ok.

Eeeengh. That's a real stretch. Sudden Metamagic seems like more of a specific exception than a rule guideline, really. If you can sneak this past your GM, eh, good luck I suppose, but I think you're on shaky ground, here. (Not that the book is very clear about how the hell Utterance-based items are supposed to work anyway...)

One thing I will point out is that you're taking advantage of one of the physical characteristics tiles have that potions don't (namely, that there are pieces to put back together afterward), citing the "may be slightly more useful in certain situations" clause, but ignoring one of the physical characteristics that oils have that tiles don't (that they can be smeared on an item). If you're going to dig in deep and apply the really fiddly bits like that, I think it's fair to call you on them and say that the tile trick probably works on potion-tiles but not on oil-tiles, since an item can't break an oil-tile. It's all what you can get your table to agree to, I guess, but you're being kind of selective about what changes when you turn a potion/oil into a tile.



Potions - and thus tiles - of 9th level spells can be created by master alchemists (Magic of Faerun).

See above.

You're not the first one to bring up these tricks, Aharon, and while I see where you're coming from, I think that they're just tricks, nothing more. (Besides, if a class requires you to do THIS much rules-lawyering to be playable, along with requesting items from high-leveled members of two separate prestige classes from two separate campaign settings... yeah. Doesn't really say much in the Truenamer's favor.)

[DragoonWraith]

Use Kyeudo's, it uses the same style as the original but with a DC system that's more manageable without obscene optimization.

I'm playing a Kyeudo Truenamer and it's sweeet.
I'm a big fan of Kellus's, personally. I really like the way his works, and I like the tie-in with the Word of _____ spells. I really have absolutely no problem with abandoning Tome of Magic's system entirely, rather than try to salvage it. Not saying salvage is impossible or a poor choice, just that it doesn't count as a bonus for me.

[Kobold-Bard]

I'm a big fan of Kellus's, personally. I really like the way his works, and I like the tie-in with the Word of _____ spells. I really have absolutely no problem with abandoning Tome of Magic's system entirely, rather than try to salvage it. Not saying salvage is impossible or a poor choice, just that it doesn't count as a bonus for me.

Fair enough. I personally liked the system, it's just that it was executed poorly.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Fun Fact: There's an affiliation in Complete Champion that can really benefit Truenamers, bestowing up to a +10 bonus on Truespeech checks if you whore yourself out to them. It will cost you 10% of your treasure for the rest of your career, but every little bit helps for the poor Truenamer.

[onthetown]

I played a Truenamer and managed to squeeze by, but it cost me a lot of gp and in the end I trashed the sheets because I was spending so much to keep up with the stupid DCs.

I tried playing another Truenamer without spending any money on any enhancements for the poor thing -- I played the class as basically as it was meant to be played. By the end of that character, I had given up on truenaming and was just taking combat feats so I could survive.

[Zaq]

I tried playing another Truenamer without spending any money on any enhancements for the poor thing -- I played the class as basically as it was meant to be played. By the end of that character, I had given up on truenaming and was just taking combat feats so I could survive.

That's so sad, and so believable. Yeah, that's about how WotC wrote it. On my Truenamer I kind of had the same issue... I had maxed UMD and access to magic items, but I decided not to use many wands or scrolls or staves, because doing so was better than my actual class features. I looked at what I could buy and realized that if I were to use it, as I could, I would no longer be a Truenamer, but just a schmuck with UMD. Mind you, this was with a character into which I had invested enough to get... I think +45 or +50 (it was still around +35 or +40 without the custom +10 ring my GM insisted that I buy) on Truespeak checks. I could Utter. It just wasn't the best thing my character could do, though I did it anyway.

[Ravens_cry]

The flavour of Truenamer is awesome. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was You. It has an ancient and mythic feel.
But actual reality?
I am a pretty low optimiser and I say it is ultimate fail. And that's just from looking at it.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The flavour of Truenamer is awesome. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was You. It has an ancient and mythic feel.
But actual reality?
I am a pretty low optimiser and I say it is ultimate fail. And that's just from looking at it.

On the flavor bit of it, I find that as you go through the classes of Tome of Magic, the fluff gets better while the crunch gets worse, leaving poor Shadowcasters with a half-bag on both ends.

[Optimystik]

Isn't there a 4e Paragon Path that uses Truespeech?


On the flavor bit of it, I find that as you go through the classes of Tome of Magic, the fluff gets better while the crunch gets worse, leaving poor Shadowcasters with a half-bag on both ends.

While you're right about Shadowcasters (mediocre fluff, mediocre crunch,) Binders are actually very good in both respects, rather than having strong crunch and weak fluff as you imply.

[The Glyphstone]

On the flavor bit of it, I find that as you go through the classes of Tome of Magic, the fluff gets better while the crunch gets worse, leaving poor Shadowcasters with a half-bag on both ends.

Did you somehow manage to get a misprinted copy of ToM, where they printed all the Binder crunch at the beginning and all the Binder fluff at the end?:smallbiggrin:

[Gnaeus]

In approximate ascending order of cheesiness:

Ranks.
Intelligence Bonus.
Skill Focus.
Silvertongue Amulet (from the Tome of Magic itself).
The Universal Aptitude utterance used as a self-buff.
Various items (like Luckstone and Pale Green Ioun Stone) that give small buffs to all skills.
Various special abilities that buff skill checks, like the Marshal's Motivate Intelligence aura.
Various spells (cast by allies, or UMD) that buff skill checks, like Heroism or Improvisation.
Custom magic items.
Item Familiars (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm).
Crazier shenanigans.


Depending how high up this ladder of cheesiness your optimization ruthlessness climbs, making insanely high Truespeak checks can become pretty manageable. Then you just have to worry about how Utterances' effects still aren't all that impressive.

You forgot Masterwork Tool, somewhere between Int and Silvertongue amulet.

[Theodoxus]

The base DC of an Utterance is 15+2xCR of your target. This DC increases by 2 with each subsequent successful use of that Utterance, and you can try to use one as often as you want.

So, for example, take a 10th level Truenamer. The DC for him to use Lesser Word of Nurturing on his 10th level Fighter friend (CR10) is 35. If he succeeded, the Lesser Word of Nurturing would have a DC of 37 when he tried to use it again (regardless of who he wanted to use it on) but a different utterance (say, Seek the Sky) would still be DC35. However, when you consider that the Truenamer's base skill ranks are only 13, with Skill Focus Truenaming (+3), an Amulet of the Silver Tongue (+5) and his INT (let's say +7) he's still going to fail almost half the time on the initial check, much less subsequent ones.

Is the bolded part true? Because it seems to me, the easiest 'cheese' would be take a level 1 commoner kobald with you, "cast" your spells on him first (with the easy DC 16 base utterance) and go to town.

[Flickerdart]

Is the bolded part true? Because it seems to me, the easiest 'cheese' would be take a level 1 commoner kobald with you, "cast" your spells on him first (with the easy DC 16 base utterance) and go to town.
Well, I meant it's a +2 increase regardless if it's the same target or a different one.

[Rothen]

No, that's not correct. The text reads:

...each time you successfuly speak the same utterance in a day, the DC of your Truespeak check for that utterance increases by 2.

So the actualy formula for speaking an utterance is:
DC= 15 + CR*2 + N*2
Where N is the number of times you successfully used the utterance this day.

Damn Truespeak Ninjas, altering reality so they can post before me.

[Draz74]

You forgot Masterwork Tool, somewhere between Int and Silvertongue amulet.

You're right, I did forget it. However, I'd say it's definitely quite a bit more cheesy than Silvertongue Amulet, since the amulet was obviously intended to be one of the Truenamer's main boosts, while I don't believe masterwork items of certain skills were ever intended to exist.

On that note, at the top of the cheesiness ladder, I also forgot to put Nanobots: Aid Another shenanigans.

[Siegel]

The answer to all Truenamer Questions is :
NOOOO !

[Aharon]

Generally speaking, it's not worth it (because you have to spend a standard action on a potion/tile/whatever, then another action to fix it within one round... and you still only get a potion, nothing fancy), but I do think that this is legit. By the time you have Rebuild Item, of course, potions are very rarely worth using, Master Alchemist notwithstanding... and I'd really rather not rely on access to a high-level member of an obscure prestige class from a 3.0 book from a specific campaign setting, you know?

Well, you have to do a lot of digging, but you would be amazed how many useful 1st to 3rd level spells with long durations are in the game. And obviously, if you deny resources, classes become weaker. I admit it's an obscure resource, but its a resource nevertheless. Wizard without celerity or Psion without anticipatory strike are weaker, too.




[...]I think that it is eminently clear that effective spell level and utterance level are not the same thing, and that while this is poorly edited, it does not invalidate or skirt around the Law of Sequence.[...]

What wording do you base your eminently clear interpretation on? It would be nice if you cited something that clearly shows why my interpretation is wrong.


Out of curiosity, using the same logic, would you also say that a character under the effects of Haste (cast from a 3rd level slot) and Heightened +1 Haste (from a 4th level slot) gets a +2 untyped bonus on attack rolls and a +2 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex (dodge bonuses explicitly stack, recall)?

No, because of the rule on stacking effects: Stacking Effects

Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. Haste and heightened Haste are still the same spell - unlike, say, Universal Aptitude and heightened Universal Aptitude: The ToM specifically states that a higher level version is different from a lower level one, which is not the case for spells.


One thing I will point out is that you're taking advantage of one of the physical characteristics tiles have that potions don't (namely, that there are pieces to put back together afterward), citing the "may be slightly more useful in certain situations" clause, but ignoring one of the physical characteristics that oils have that tiles don't (that they can be smeared on an item). If you're going to dig in deep and apply the really fiddly bits like that, I think it's fair to call you on them and say that the tile trick probably works on potion-tiles but not on oil-tiles, since an item can't break an oil-tile. It's all what you can get your table to agree to, I guess, but you're being kind of selective about what changes when you turn a potion/oil into a tile.


hm, I guess you might be right. Have to ask my DM about that.


You're not the first one to bring up these tricks, Aharon, and while I see where you're coming from, I think that they're just tricks, nothing more. (Besides, if a class requires you to do THIS much rules-lawyering to be playable, along with requesting items from high-leveled members of two separate prestige classes from two separate campaign settings... yeah. Doesn't really say much in the Truenamer's favor.)

Well, I haven't seen these tricks put in consistent form, like a handbook or something. Might have to write that :smallbiggrin:
As long as they work (and I obviously believe they do), so what? Rogues aren't easy to build, either, nor are non-Tashalatora monks. The game has many classes where you have to do a lot of book-dipping (i.e. Rogues worth far more with Craven from Champions of Valor, Monks being worth more with Greater Mighty Wallop).
And he doesn't rely on these items. They make him stronger, but I believe I could build an effective truenamer using nothing but 1st to 3rd level tiles. They are really cheap, after all - even if you buy them at a high caster level. Example: Greater Magic Weapon for +5 enhancement bonus costs 3000 gp, so does Magic Vestments (these examples rely on oil-tiles, though).