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View Full Version : Archmages and Epic? *Confused*



Kantolin
2010-05-31, 02:44 PM
Okay, I think there's something I'm misunderstanding here, so I'm hoping someone can explain it.

Normal example:
A wizard 20 advances a level. Huzzah! He is now level 21. He chooses to make that 21st level of wizard, and thus more or less is a wizard 20 / epic wizard 1. Thus, in addition to his typical epic feats at (21, 24, 27), he also gets the epic wizard bonus feats at every third level of the class. That seems pretty clear.

Another normal example:
A wizard 10 / Loremaster 10 advances a level. Huzzah! He is now level 21. He can choose, since loremaster is a 10 level prestige class, to take an 11th level of wizard, and thus become more or less wizard 10 / loremaster 10 / epic loremaster 1. Thus, in addition to his typical epic feats (21, 24, 27), he also gets whatever the loremaster's bonus feats are.

The question:
A wizard 15 / Archmage 5 advances a level. Huzzah! He is now level 21.

But archmage can't be taken to epic as it's only a five level class, so he has to look for wizard. But since he lacks 20 levels of wizard, he'd basically take wizard 16... so he doesn't get the epic wizard's epic bonus feats at all for five more levels?

Is that seriously how it works? O_o Do epic archmages (comparably) suck?

And slightly unrelatedly, are there any other epic prestige classes in some other book?

Mongoose87
2010-05-31, 02:45 PM
This is why you grab Master Specialist, before going into Archmage, so you can get your DM to give you Epic Bonus Feats by taking Master Specialist 11+

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-31, 02:48 PM
The rule for prestige classes is that they must have 10 levels in them pre-epic to have an epic advancement. (It may simply be "at least 10 levels," but I am not certain on that.)

As such, a wizard 15/archmage 5 would be forced to take either his 16th level of wizard or his first level in some other class. These types of situations can be avoided via taking multiple prestige classes. For example, a similar character could go Wizard 5/Master Specialist 10/Archmage 5 before advancing in Epic Master Specialist.

EDIT: Looks like Mongoose is a Transmuter Master Specialist, cuz that was some celerity he pulled on me.:smalltongue:

Axolotl
2010-05-31, 03:01 PM
Is this realy a problem in any way? If your a 21st level spellcaster your already overpowerede pretty much by default, losing a few bonus feat doesn't change that.

Murdim
2010-05-31, 03:16 PM
The (much weaker) Core-only alternative would be Wizard 5 / Loremaster 10 / Archmage 5 / Loremaster x. For early access to Loremaster, don't forget that Scribe Scroll count as an item creation feat.

Kantolin
2010-05-31, 03:25 PM
Man, that's astonishing, but I guess I was indeed reading it correctly.

Boy is this going to screw over everyone that isn't the party's cleric (particularly our physical units). ^_^

One more question though. Say I meant Sorceror 15 / Archmage 5, who then takes one more level of sorceror.

Your spells do not go up, right? So what exactly do you get out of that sorceror level you've taken? Nothing but familiar advancement?

Ernir
2010-05-31, 03:27 PM
Your spells do not go up, right? So what exactly do you get out of that sorceror level you've taken? Nothing but familiar advancement?

You get a caster level increase.

Kobold-Bard
2010-05-31, 03:42 PM
Or just take another Pre-Epic PrC. IotSV or something.

The Cat Goddess
2010-05-31, 03:51 PM
Because D&D treats multi-classing as somehow a terrible thing when it comes to Epic Levels...

I just treat Epic Levels as requiring Epic Class Levels. The other thing to do is allow PC's who hit level 19+ to buy Templates appropriate to their character. A Favored Soul could easily justify buying Half-Celestial (or Half-Fiendish), while a Wu Jen or Shugenja could justify buying Half-Elemental.

And what do you do if a class doesn't list Epic Class Progression?

Ultimate Magus, for example. You only need Sorcerer-1, Wizard-3 and character level 5. Let's say, to avoid Multiclassing penalties (because you're not a Human or Elf, for example), you go Sorcerer-2, Wizard-3. Then you go Ultimate Magus-10. You are now casting as a Sorcerer-11, Wizard-11. For the remaining 5 levels, you go Sorcerer-3, Wizard-2. You're now casting as a Sorcerer-14, Wizard-13.

You can't (by RAW) take Epic Wizard or Epic Sorcerer... and there is no progression for Epic Ultimate Magus. What do you do?

What about Epic Progression for Tome of Battle? Clearly, since ToB is meant to keep Melee classes in the same realm as (many) Casters, there should be some Epic Maneuvers and Epic Stances... shouldn't there?

Epic Levels, besides being broken for Epic Magic and Epic Skills, are broken for Epic Class Progression.

Kantolin
2010-05-31, 03:55 PM
Welp, that's a general pity, but thank you all for the responses (Speedily, yet!)

Seems house rules are necessary, otherwise I'll just grab some additional class or another.

One last question that got lost amidst the replies, though. Are there any epic classes in any other book? The Epic Handbook has a few, but I'm curious about other options. ^_^

Pluto
2010-05-31, 03:59 PM
The (much weaker) Core-only alternative would be Wizard 5 / Loremaster 10 / Archmage 5 / Loremaster x. For early access to Loremaster, don't forget that Scribe Scroll count as an item creation feat.
Feats aren't the prerequisite that delays Loremaster to level 8.
(*without shenanigans, anyway)

AstralFire
2010-05-31, 04:16 PM
Welp, that's a general pity, but thank you all for the responses (Speedily, yet!)

Seems house rules are necessary, otherwise I'll just grab some additional class or another.

One last question that got lost amidst the replies, though. Are there any epic classes in any other book? The Epic Handbook has a few, but I'm curious about other options. ^_^

Nope. And with good reason.

hamishspence
2010-05-31, 04:24 PM
Races of Faerun has the Elven High Mage, Players Guide to Faerun has the Netherese Arcanist and the Spellfire Hierophant.

Olo Demonsbane
2010-05-31, 04:27 PM
There are a couple...a few in Players' Guide to Faeurun, IIRC.

hamishspence
2010-05-31, 04:31 PM
A couple is right- all the rest, are epic progressions of the 10-level prestige classes (since every 10-level PRC in Player's Guide to Faerun has an epic progression as well.)

Analytica
2010-05-31, 05:07 PM
Now I am confused, or rather, maybe I fail to see the problem.

Suppose you are indeed a Wizard 3/Sorcerer 2/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 5. You will then have spellcasting as a 15th level wizard, and an 11th level sorcerer. You cannot take either epic wizard, sorcerer or Ultimate Magus.

However, you can take wizard or sorcerer levels, either of which would increase your spells/day, caster level etc. The only thing you would lose out on then would be not gaining as many epic feats, as you would get only regular wizard bonus feats, and no sorcerer bonus feats. Same if you would take whichever full-casting prestige class you want. Is that really a problem?

hamishspence
2010-05-31, 05:13 PM
In Champions of Ruin, the sample epic lich was described as:

Necromancer 15/Archmage 5/Epic Wizard 7/Netherese Arcanist 5.

Implying, that once you hit epic, all subsequent levels of wizard taken, are levels of epic wizard.

(and the number of feats he has, requires it to work this way).

This might resolve the issue somewhat. However, it may just be a quirk of that particular book.

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-31, 05:38 PM
In Champions of Ruin, the sample epic lich was described as:

Necromancer 15/Archmage 5/Epic Wizard 7/Netherese Arcanist 5.

Implying, that once you hit epic, all subsequent levels of wizard taken, are levels of epic wizard.

(and the number of feats he has, requires it to work this way).

This might resolve the issue somewhat. However, it may just be a quirk of that particular book.

Don't trust the stat blocks, man. :smallwink:

hamishspence
2010-05-31, 05:40 PM
True- statblocks can be iffy.

Still, it would be an interesting way of handling epic characters.

Riffington
2010-05-31, 07:21 PM
You cannot take either epic wizard, sorcerer or Ultimate Magus.
Actually, you can take epic Ultimate Magus. However, epic Ultimate Magus sucks. It gains no spells (since 1/4/7/not10 is not a strict arithmetical progression), but it improves expanded spell knowledge and augmented casting. Sorcerer or Wizard would be the way to go, as you point out.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-31, 07:32 PM
Actually, you can take epic Ultimate Magus. However, epic Ultimate Magus sucks. It gains no spells (since 1/4/7/not10 is not a strict arithmetical progression), but it improves expanded spell knowledge and augmented casting. Sorcerer or Wizard would be the way to go, as you point out.

Actually, by the test of UM, Epic UM should be a straight +1 prepared/+1 spontanenous.:smallbiggrin:

Riffington
2010-05-31, 07:53 PM
Actually, by the test of UM, Epic UM should be a straight +1 prepared/+1 spontanenous.:smallbiggrin:

Please explain this reasoning.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-31, 07:55 PM
Please explain this reasoning.

"At every level other than 1st, 4th, and 7th..." would include levels 11+ for complete dual advancement, no?

noiadodh
2010-05-31, 08:43 PM
"Any class features that increase or accumulate as part of a repeated pattern (such as a rogue’s sneak attack or the number of times per day a barbarian can rage) also continue to increase or accumulate after 20th level at the same rate."

UM progression isnt a repeated pattern. Besides that, mystic theurge epic progression isnt +1 arcane/+1 divine..

Lysander
2010-05-31, 08:47 PM
Alternatively, don't take all five levels of archmage. Just make it a one or two level dip.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-05-31, 09:10 PM
UM progression isnt a repeated pattern. Besides that, mystic theurge epic progression isnt +1 arcane/+1 divine..

You could see it as a repeated pattern within the ten levels, such that every 10 levels you have the same sort of progression as it has pre-epic. As for the Mystic Theurge argument, assuming you're almost better going with alternating levels of cleric and wizard. The epic MT is almost some sort of joke.

Bogardan_Mage
2010-06-01, 01:32 AM
Please explain this reasoning.
Can you explain the reasoning that leads you from "UM's spells aren't covered by the repeated pattern clause" to "UM's spells don't continue into epic levels at all"? Not to mention the fact that that section isn't even talking about creating new epic progressions, it's just describing general trends in the progressions listed below. Analysis was correct, from a purely RAW perspective.

The Big Dice
2010-06-01, 04:23 AM
A quick read of the SRD turns this up in the Epic Level Basics section:

Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.
Class level doesn't seem to factor in to things at all. Hitting character level 21 is what qualifies you for Epic Feats, which is backed up by the Epic Feats section:

At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.
Each character class gains bonus epic feats according to the class description. These feats must be selected from the list of bonus epic feats for that class.
It reads like Epic is a level-based descriptor, not a class-based one. So once you hit 20th level, that's the top of the tree as far as gaining things like spells per day. To qualify for Epic Feats, you just need to reach 21st level.

Kobold-Bard
2010-06-01, 04:46 AM
A quick read of the SRD turns this up in the Epic Level Basics section:

Class level doesn't seem to factor in to things at all. Hitting character level 21 is what qualifies you for Epic Feats, which is backed up by the Epic Feats section:

It reads like Epic is a level-based descriptor, not a class-based one. So once you hit 20th level, that's the top of the tree as far as gaining things like spells per day. To qualify for Epic Feats, you just need to reach 21st level.

You can take Epic Feats for your level up Feats, but the classes don't count as Epic Progression until you hit Class Level 21 / PrC Level Max+1.

Analytica
2010-06-01, 07:27 AM
It reads like Epic is a level-based descriptor, not a class-based one. So once you hit 20th level, that's the top of the tree as far as gaining things like spells per day.

This is what I would dispute. If you were, say, Rogue 4/Wizard 16 and took a level of wizard, you would be an epic character. The 17th level of wizard you got would not be epic wizard, even though you are epic and a wizard. Because it is a level of "regular" wizard rather than epic wizard, it would give you ninth-level spell slots.

If instead you took a level of archmage, it would not be epic archmage, and it would increase your effective wizard spellcasting to 17th level, also granting you ninth-level spell slots.

Once you are a Rogue 4/Wizard 20, say, taking further levels in wizard would give you levels in epic wizard, which would only increase your caster level, familiar abilities, and grant you epic wizard bonus feats.

... unless I am wrong. :smallsmile:

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 08:33 AM
This is what I would dispute. If you were, say, Rogue 4/Wizard 16 and took a level of wizard, you would be an epic character. The 17th level of wizard you got would not be epic wizard, even though you are epic and a wizard. Because it is a level of "regular" wizard rather than epic wizard, it would give you ninth-level spell slots.

If instead you took a level of archmage, it would not be epic archmage, and it would increase your effective wizard spellcasting to 17th level, also granting you ninth-level spell slots.

Once you are a Rogue 4/Wizard 20, say, taking further levels in wizard would give you levels in epic wizard, which would only increase your caster level, familiar abilities, and grant you epic wizard bonus feats.

... unless I am wrong. :smallsmile:

This is how I have always read it.

The Big Dice
2010-06-01, 12:55 PM
The problem is, the SRD and ELH both talk about character level, not class level. I don't see "epic classes" as being a separate thing from "non epic classes." It's simply that 20th level is the cutoff point between the two systems. And the text being open to multiple interpretations doesn't help. Though I tend to go with character levels rather than class levels being what matters.

It's all a bit of a mess really and I never saw any good reaon why there's a need to split the game like that.

Hendel
2010-06-01, 01:11 PM
This is what I would dispute. If you were, say, Rogue 4/Wizard 16 and took a level of wizard, you would be an epic character. The 17th level of wizard you got would not be epic wizard, even though you are epic and a wizard. Because it is a level of "regular" wizard rather than epic wizard, it would give you ninth-level spell slots.

If instead you took a level of archmage, it would not be epic archmage, and it would increase your effective wizard spellcasting to 17th level, also granting you ninth-level spell slots.

Once you are a Rogue 4/Wizard 20, say, taking further levels in wizard would give you levels in epic wizard, which would only increase your caster level, familiar abilities, and grant you epic wizard bonus feats.

... unless I am wrong. :smallsmile:

You are correct because there is a distinct difference between an Epic Level Character and an Epic Level Class. If you keep that distinction clear in your mind, it is not as difficult to understand.

For example, I have a 30th Level Character. He is a Sorcerer 10/Argent Savant 5/Loremaster 15. He became an Epic Level Character ten levels ago and began getting his Epic Level Character bonus feats (21, 24, 27, etc). He was a 19th level caster at 20th Character level because Argent Savant cost him one level of casting. However, at 21st he became a 20th level caster and maxed out his Sorcerer casting as far as new spells and new slots were concerned.

At 26th Character Level he became a 11th level Loremaster and was now an Epic Loremaster as well. He began at that point to start gaining bonus feats as an Epic Loremaster (13, 16, etc). His caster level has contiuned to increase, but he does not gain anymore slots or spells known unless he takes a feat to gain Improved Spell Capacity or more spells known.

Hendel
2010-06-01, 01:14 PM
Is this realy a problem in any way? If your a 21st level spellcaster your already overpowerede pretty much by default, losing a few bonus feat doesn't change that.

True, but in the example of the character that I just gave, I gave up the potential of several Epic feats from levels 21 to 25 by having that extra class in there. Those Epic Feats are powerful and very rare so I would almost at this point rather have those than the benifits from Argent Savant class.

Dracons
2010-06-01, 01:15 PM
What's so confusing?

After level 20 your Base Attack and Saves are no longer what your class would dicate. You trade point for point each level (base attack one level, all saves next, etc). At 21 you qualify for epic feats.

You can contenue gaining levels in classes, and your abilities go up.

So, 15 level wizard/11 level fighter, would have spells per day and bonus (NOT EPIC) of a 15 level wizard, and a 11th level fighter bonus feats (again, not epic). At level 27 you gain a new level, and decide to go wizard. You now have spells per day as a 16th level wizard as normal. You also get one epic feat due to be level 28.

The only thing that that happens At level 20, is your Base Attack and Saves are done. No more extra attacks, even if they exceed the normal 5 points above 1.

The EPIC progression of classes, such as wizard, bard are for when you reach level 21 in those classes, you don't gain anything other then the epic beniefts.


But if your level 16 wizard/11 fighter decides to gain a level of cleric? Your now level 16 wizard/11 fighter/1 cleric. You will have the skill points of first level cleric, the spells per day as a cleric, the Hit Die of a cleric, you just don't get the base attack or save, other then what the EPIC progression dicates. (in this case, as a level 16 wizard/12 fighter/1 level cleric, being it level 28 would be +1 to attack.

Salbazier
2010-06-02, 01:25 AM
UM progression isnt a repeated pattern. Besides that, mystic theurge epic progression isnt +1 arcane/+1 divine..

No progression for one side at 1/4/7. That's every three levels. And the other side progress at every level. How is this not a repeated pattern?

Is there any official/written definition of 'repeated pattern' somewhere?

olentu
2010-06-02, 01:59 AM
No progression for one side at 1/4/7. That's every three levels. And the other side progress at every level. How is this not a repeated pattern?

Is there any official/written definition of 'repeated pattern' somewhere?

The problem being I assume that level 10 breaks the pattern.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-02, 02:03 AM
The problem being I assume that level 10 breaks the pattern.

If you work under the assumption that it repeats every three levels. I rather see it as a one-sided advancement every 3 levels in 10, spaced at 1/4/7 intervals. Just my take on it, as I'd rather just see Theurge style classes be full dual advancement in epic.

I mean, you're almost better off just alternating levels in cleric and wizard once you hit epic. May just be me, though.

olentu
2010-06-02, 02:09 AM
If you work under the assumption that it repeats every three levels. I rather see it as a one-sided advancement every 3 levels in 10, spaced at 1/4/7 intervals. Just my take on it, as I'd rather just see Theurge style classes be full dual advancement in epic.

I mean, you're almost better off just alternating levels in cleric and wizard once you hit epic. May just be me, though.

Well if you are doing that then everything is a repeating pattern.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-02, 02:12 AM
Well if you are doing that then everything is a repeating pattern.

Well, yeah.:smalltongue: Seriously, though, it's pretty easy to pick out patterns like that, even if no such pattern technically exists. It's partly due to how the human brain is wired.

olentu
2010-06-02, 02:25 AM
Well, yeah.:smalltongue: Seriously, though, it's pretty easy to pick out patterns like that, even if no such pattern technically exists. It's partly due to how the human brain is wired.

Patterns do seem like they are there perhaps more often then they really are.

Also I think once you get into epic cleric and wizard it is better to just alternate the classes then mystic theurge as I recall. I believe the theurge is +3 levels in each class and a bonus epic feat every 6 levels while alternating gives +3 in each, two bonus epic feats (one from each class), bigger HD, and I think some miscellaneous class abilities.

dextercorvia
2010-06-02, 08:08 AM
Except, that if MT10 is included in your pre-epic build, you won't get those Bonus Epic feats from Wizard or Cleric Levels for at least 11 epic levels of the dominant side and 19 of the secondary class.

olentu
2010-06-02, 08:35 PM
Except, that if MT10 is included in your pre-epic build, you won't get those Bonus Epic feats from Wizard or Cleric Levels for at least 11 epic levels of the dominant side and 19 of the secondary class.

Well I did say when one gets into the epic versions of the classes.