The Order of the Stick and Character Optimization [Archive]

derfenrirwolv

2010-05-31, 07:55 PM

Here are a few examples:

1. Miko Miyazaki - Monk/Paladin. Both the Monk and the Paladin are tier 5 classes that are not compatible with each other. Her unfavorable multiclassing actually makes her one of the weakest characters in the game. Despite her horrible build, she is depicted as a highly-skilled combatant, the strongest Paladin of the Sapphire Guard.

This is just wrong. The classes are HIGHLY compatible. The only problem is the extreme multiple attribute dependency. A monks all good saves plus the paladins CHA bonus to saves makes a fighter with a good will save. Its well worth loosing 1 bab to pick up 2-3 levels of monk for the saves and evasion. A paladin's weakspot is his will save. +3 from 2 monk levels or +5 (still mind) are well worth loosing 1 bab and a few measly hp

Aside from the fact that you're not a full caster, there's hardly a better fighting type class build than a monk paladin if you have the stats for it.

2. Belkar Bitterleaf - Ranger/Barbarian. If not for the Rule of Cool, Belkar would be even worse than Miko in an actual game. With his strength penalty and suboptimal weapon choice, he shouldn't be able to effectively contribute in combat. But hey, Rule of Cool and all that.

Ranger barbarian isnt bad... for a bashy class. Its probably better than either one alone. Both are very front loaded classes without a lot of payoff at higher levels.A little rage helps to offset the problems with 2 weapon fighting, both wear non heavy armors, and have compatible skill sets.

Belkars problems come in the form of 2 weapon fighting (which is suboptimal)

Not having the wisdom to cast spells (why not be a fighter or a barbarian?)

Not acquiring an animal companion until recently.

Not putting his skill points into survival (for tracking) spot and listen.

Being a small sized combat class (str reduction, grapple reduction, reduced damage from smaller weapons)

3
. Xykon - Lich Sorcerer. A member of a tier 2 class and potentially the highest-level character in the world, Xykon shouldn't even need the Gates to conquer the world. In a game that follows RAW, Xykon should be able to conquer the world through raw magical power alone. The fact that he hasn't means that having a high tier class doesn't mean an autowin in the Stickverse.

Somewhat like belkar, he operates somewhat on the rule of cool. When a wizard should be able to dance around him, they instead go toe to toe with his brute power. He also doesn't suffer from the class's weakness of being unable to cast in a grapple even with still spell.

Durkon: Is to bland to be optimized or not, since we don't know what feats he has. Dwarf is a good choice for cleric though for the +2 con. Who turns undead anyway?

V: evocation isnt bad under oots dmming. Most fights consist of lots of lower level mooks and the aoe blasting does very well. Its not his fault conjuration got moved from a very dump able school to a necessity. For core, quickenspell and maximize spell are good choices. Elf is, despite the flavor text, probably the worst choice of race for a wizard next to the half orc.

Elan: Bard.

Haley: Archer Rogue. Seems fairly and well optimized.. for a rogue (who are useless at high levels)

Kish

2010-05-31, 08:02 PM

Not having the wisdom to cast spells (why not be a fighter

Too lazy to go to fighter college.

or a barbarian?)

Because BARBARIANS SUCK!...at least until he decides he wants to multiclass as one.

Belkar's Wisdom penalty probably interfered with him realizing that the free dual-wield feats didn't compare favorably to the benefits from the barbarian class, and could be easily exceeded by a fighter.

SadisticFishing

2010-05-31, 08:05 PM

Actually, in a one on one fight between a Wizard and a Sorcerer... The class is 100% irrelevant. It's all about spell selection.

Xykon just has this odd thing where his Life Drain stuns for a round. Never really made sense to me, and totally undermined his point, in my eyes. But anyhoo...

Yitzi

2010-05-31, 08:06 PM

The most broken combos wouldn't be allowed by a sane DM anyway. And from the looks of it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html), OOTS has someone who doesn't like cheesy optimizers.

derfenrirwolv

2010-05-31, 08:23 PM

The most broken combos wouldn't be allowed by a sane DM anyway. And from the looks of it (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html), OOTS has someone who doesn't like cheesy optimizers.

That combo doesn't work that way anyway. Moving is 1 attack of opportunity, not 1 per square.

Dark Matter

2010-05-31, 10:36 PM

3. Xykon - Lich Sorcerer. A member of a tier 2 class and potentially the highest-level character in the world, Xykon shouldn't even need the Gates to conquer the world. In a game that follows RAW, Xykon should be able to conquer the world through raw magical power alone...Let us all dread the day when someone points this out to him. He doesn't have any understanding of planning, or tactics and I think it's just never occurred to him. Without RC he'd be off wiping out small villages for entertainment. If it's not in front of him then it doesn't exist.

3. What spells does Xykon have? Mostly direct damage spells, from what we've seen. True, he probably could conquer the multiverse with raw magical power if he had a better spell selection, but does he really want to devote that much time and energy to optimization?I was really impressed with Symbol of Insanity. Keeping with RAW, what high level spells *should* he have?

Savannah

2010-06-01, 01:15 AM

That combo doesn't work that way anyway. Moving is 1 attack of opportunity, not 1 per square.

You provoke an AoO when you leave a threatened square. Since the half ogre has a 15' reach, Roy has to leave two threatened squares to get to him. Normally, you can only make one AoO per round, but with combat reflexes you can make more (the half ogre has to have at least 12 Dex since he's making two AoOs). I think it works, unless I'm forgetting something :smallconfused:

Shale

2010-06-01, 01:24 AM

The SRD specifically says "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."

Savannah

2010-06-01, 01:28 AM

So it does. As I said, "unless I'm forgetting something" :smalltongue:

Deliverance

2010-06-01, 03:18 AM

Let us all dread the day when someone points this out to him. He doesn't have any understanding of planning, or tactics and I think it's just never occurred to him. Without RC he'd be off wiping out small villages for entertainment. If it's not in front of him then it doesn't exist.

Though I understand the sentiment, I think this is where we need to remember SoD: Don't confuse not caring with not knowing.

Xykon has shown himself capable of decent planning and devising non-obvious tactics, when he cares. They sometimes even work. While to us as readers it appears that mostly he does not care, that should not be mistaken for an inability to plan or to think of other approaches than a sledgehammer to the face. He prefers the sledgehammer to the face approach and considers it to beat most other tactics or long term strategies when you hit hard enough, but that does not make it the only option; when needed he will manipulate others or even charm them to take care of unlikely contingencies.

This is something that is spelled out explicitly in SoD and doesn't appear that often in the main strip, but even in the main strip it shines through in a few places: Xykon's terminal state is boredom, not ignorance.

Delusion

2010-06-01, 03:33 AM

I seriously doupt Xykon is yet powerful enough to just take over world. Sure he is powerful but if he just tried to take over the multiverse multiple only slightly less powerful than he opponents would just gang up on him eventually. Soon's ghost for example did kick his ass and whos to say there aren't any other epic level creatures who could rival that power (great wyrm dragons etc etc).

Prodan

2010-06-01, 04:38 AM

Aside from the fact that you're not a full caster, there's hardly a better fighting type class build than a monk paladin if you have the stats for it.

Barbarian
Warblade
Crusader
Duskblade
Various gish builds involving wizards and Paladin/Sorcerers

Delgarde

2010-06-01, 06:03 AM

Xykon has shown himself capable of decent planning and devising non-obvious tactics, when he cares. They sometimes even work. While to us as readers it appears that mostly he does not care, that should not be mistaken for an inability to plan or to think of other approaches than a sledgehammer to the face. He prefers the sledgehammer to the face approach and considers it to beat most other tactics or long term strategies when you hit hard enough, but that does not make it the only option; when needed he will manipulate others or even charm them to take care of unlikely contingencies..

I agree he's smarter than he often acts, but I do think you give him too much credit. Remember, the Gates business isn't his idea - it came from Redcloak in the first place, and were it not for Redcloak, Xykon would be long dead of old age. He has the capacity for long-term planning, but he rarely uses it - he's too easily bored, prone to finding trivial entertainment while Redcloak does all the work.

That said, he has one *very* good reason for preferring the sledgehammer - he's a frightfully effective one, having beaten down both Dorukan and the boosted Varsuuvius in a fight. But he does get fixated on that approach - the Symbol of Insanity ploy was clever, but consider when he came up against the Ghost Paladins - he was flailing away ineffectually until Redcloak showed up and reasoned out a weakness.

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-01, 06:08 AM

Barbarian

Poor will save. Rampaging barbarian for the party Charm person/charm monster/dominat person = rampaging barbarian for the opposition. Fear= rampaging yellowstreak in the opposite direction,

Warblade

non core.

Crusader

non core

Duskblade

Various gish builds involving wizards and Paladin/Sorcerers

Thats going to eat into your BAB alot, not provide evasion, eat into your hp all for what.. 2nd level spells?

Prodan

2010-06-01, 06:09 AM

Poor will save. Rampaging barbarian for the party Charm person/charm monster/dominat person = rampaging barbarian for the opposition. Fear= rampaging yellowstreak in the opposite direction,
You'd be surprised at what can be done with a properly build barbarian.

non core.

You never restricted it to core.

That thing you just did? I saw it?

non core

See above

Thats going to eat into your BAB alot, not provide evasion, eat into your hp all for what.. 2nd level spells?
You've never seen a proper Sorcadin build, have you?

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-01, 06:17 AM

Actually, you'd be surprised. Steadfast Determination does wonders.

Non core.

Are you getting these builds from never winternights?

Were are not restricted to core.

Its optimization for the oots. Of course overpowered prestige and new base classes are going to be more optimal, but oots is largely limited to core. The fair comparison to make would be to determine how optimized they are for core.

Strait 16's or 18's and i'd run a paladin monk. Its not about dishing out huge amounts of damage, its about being able to survive any spell being thrown at you, which is a very, very, underrated ability because optimizers tend to forget they're making someone to function in an adventuring party, no solo a dungeon or win a duel with another character.

You've never seen a Sorcadin build, have you?

One that can function *as a bashy type* no. They always grab 2 levels of paladin for the saving throw cheese and move on.

Prodan

2010-06-01, 06:22 AM

Non core.
Why are we restricted to core again?

Are you getting these builds from never winternights?
No.

Its optimization for the oots. Of course overpowered prestige and new base classes are going to be more optimal,
New base classes like the Truenamer?

but oots is largely limited to core.
There's no evidence that OotS is restricted to core though.

The fair comparison to make would be to determine how optimized they are for core.
If you insist. I think I could build a better core melee character than the monk/paladin. As a barbarian.

Strait 16's or 18's and i'd run a paladin monk. Its not about dishing out huge amounts of damage, its about being able to survive any spell being thrown at you, which is a very, very, underrated ability because optimizers tend to forget they're making someone to function in an adventuring party, no solo a dungeon or win a duel with another character.
Surviving any spell thrown at you is a highly valued thing among optimizers. Unfortunately, a monk/paladin doesn't do that very well, at least in my opinion. Making saves is good, but there's a lot of ways to kill people without relying on saves. Enervation comes to mind.

One that can function *as a bashy type* no. They always grab 2 levels of paladin for the saving throw cheese and move on.
Haha... no.

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist8 has +16 BAB, gets +9 AC from Mage Armor, +9 from Shield, can cast Alter Self for +6 NA, can cast Ruin Delver's Fortune for either evasion + Cha to Ref, immunity to poison + Cha to Fort, or immunity to fear + Cha to Will, and much much more.

If we abide by your restriction, it'd be some sort of Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple, which would certainly be interesting...

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-01, 06:42 AM

Why are we restricted to core again?

Answered Below. Seriously?

[QUOTE]
There's no evidence that OotS is restricted to core though.

No evidence at all, except all of the classes being core, 99 percent of on screen spells being core or home brew, and the fact that 3.X is freely used as part of an SRD while using non core classes and spells are copyrighted and have to rely on byzantine and subjective copyright laws.

If you insist. I think I could build a better core melee character than the monk/paladin. As a barbarian.

And you deal with the horrible will save by... ?

Surviving any spell thrown at you is a highly valued thing among optimizers. Unfortunately, a monk/paladin doesn't do that very well, at least in my opinion.

What opinion? This is mechanics. You have +3 or more from your charismia,+3 for being a monk, possibly another +2 on will saves from still mind.. you're going to compete with that as a core barbarian.. how?

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/Sacred Exorcist8 has +16 BAB, gets +9 AC from Mage Armor, +9 from Shield, can cast Alter Self for +6 NA, can cast Ruin Delver's Fortune for either evasion + Cha to Ref, immunity to poison + Cha to Fort, or immunity to fear + Cha to Will, and much much more.

yes yes yes.. prestige class cheese special.

If we abide by your restriction, it'd be a Paladin3/Sorcerer2/Dragon Disciple5/Eldritch Knight10, which would be... interesting. Buy a ring of Evasion and you're good to go for melee.

You'd still have an abysmal reflex save. That's the save i usually skimp on, but it does leave you open to a few spells like the hampster ball.

Prodan

2010-06-01, 06:45 AM

No evidence at all, except all of the classes being core, 99 percent of on screen spells being core or home brew, and the fact that 3.X is freely used as part of an SRD while using non core classes and spells are copyrighted and have to rely on byzantine and subjective copyright laws.
Hold on. You have just admitted that OotS isn't restricted to core by mentioning the SRD and homebrew.

And you deal with the horrible will save by... ?

Being very angry.

What opinion?
That you have great survivability vs spellcasting. Seriously, Enervation.

This is mechanics. You have +3 or more from your charismia,+3 for being a monk, possibly another +2 on will saves from still mind.. you're going to compete with that as a core barbarian.. how?

At the level OOtS is at, roughly 14 I think, a Barbarian will have a base will save of +4. One can reasonably expect a Cloak of Resistance for another +4. He can get +3 from Greater Rage, +2 from Iron Will, and +4 vs Enchantment from Indomitable will. +10 when not raging for a will save isn't really horrible - it's about as much as you'd expect from the average sorcerer or wizard, since they do not typically have more Wis than is needed to avoid a penalty (some dump it if they're strapped for stats) and the base will save for an arcane caster is +9 at level 14.

A Monk6/Paladin 8 for example, will have a base will save of +7 (+5 from Monk, +2 from Paladin), and has access to many of the same buffs as the barbarian has. No rage though, and the monk bonus to resist enchantment is 2 less than the Barbarian's. On the up side, the Monk/Paladin should have at least a 14 in Wisdom. Barbarians do not typically have good Wisdom, though Survival and Listen are important skills that are keyed off of wisdom, so... I'm going to assume a 10 in Wisdom for the barbarian, although I tend to make Barbarians with a 12 in Wis and a tad less strength. Charisma wise, I'm not sure what Charisma we should give the Monk/Paladin, since he's being rather strained for stats what with needing Str, Dex, Con, Wis and Cha, but let's say a 14.

In combat, the Monk/Paladin will have a will save that's better by 4 points when not saving vs enchantment and by two points vs enchantment. During a surprise attack, before the barbarian rages, he does not get the +3 from raging and is at a disadvantage.

Yes, you get a better will save if you have good stats and etc. Barbarians are not at that huge a disadvantage as you think, though, when it comes to will saves. At least, not more than your typical arcane caster.

You'd still have an abysmal reflex save. That's the save i usually skimp on, but it does leave you open to a few spells like the hampster ball.
If only there was some way for someone who can cast spells to get out of Resilient Sphere. Perhaps if they could somehow teleport, or suppress magical effects, or disintegrate things, or dispel the magic, or have some sort of item that granted continuous Freedom of Movement, or...

Gandariel

2010-06-01, 06:58 AM

A Monk6/Paladin 8 for example...

i thought Miko was like monk 3/paladin 14 or something like that..

Prodan

2010-06-01, 07:01 AM

i thought Miko was like monk 3/paladin 14 or something like that..

Miko is. We're talking about the generic concept of a Monk/Paladin, and I felt it best to give an example build with a good helping of both for the sake of the concept, and having it at level 14 would put it around the level of the rest of OotS.

Also, only having 3 levels in Monk would have lowered the saves. Monk 3/ Paladin 11 would have a base will save of +6, which isn't really much more than the Barbarian's base will save of +4.

hamishspence

2010-06-01, 07:06 AM

Noncore classes have been mentioned in the strip.

Warlocks:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html

And samurai as a class rather than a noble title:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html

I'm not sure if OoTS ninjas have ever been explicitly designated as a class though- or exhibited abilities available only to the 3.5 ninja class.

Prodan

2010-06-01, 07:08 AM

Ah, I had forgotten.

Half orgres too, from that spiked chain strip. And a psion recently.

Dark Matter

2010-06-01, 07:15 AM

Noncore classes have been mentioned in the strip.True but all of these are one shot (often one panel) things. There's a world of difference between someone mentioning something one time and actually thinking the DM would allow it for a PC.

hamishspence

2010-06-01, 07:18 AM

Both the Warlock & the Samurai are pretty low in power- nothing overwhelming. (Warlock is a bit better, but still a long way below wizard or cleric).

Might be interesting for them to encounter a warlock enemy (or ally).

Dr.Epic

2010-06-01, 07:21 AM

This is actually a good thing for the Order of the Stick. Not following the class tier system means that the good guys actually have a chance at victory and battles are less predictable (and more enjoyable).

What do you think?

Well yeah duh. OotS wouldn't be OotS if they didn't make fun of the D&D rules. They need to exist in a 3.5 version world but still abide by the rules of drama and comedy to make it work.

3. Xykon - Lich Sorcerer. A member of a tier 2 class and potentially the highest-level character in the world, Xykon shouldn't even need the Gates to conquer the world. In a game that follows RAW, Xykon should be able to conquer the world through raw magical power alone. The fact that he hasn't means that having a high tier class doesn't mean an autowin in the Stickverse.

SoD spoilers:

Xykon became a lich because he was trapped in a situation that prevented him from using his powers as a living creature. The situation that cause his lose of arcane powers resulted from him following Red Cloak to get a Gate. He later became enraged due to the fact that undead could not taste coffee (one of his few and great pleasures). The only reason Xykon didn't kill Red Cloak for turning him into a lich was because only Red Cloak knew the ceremony for taking control of a Gate thus meaning he went through the change for nothing. Xykon pursues the Gates because its his justification for becoming a lich and losing coffee.

Prodan

2010-06-01, 07:21 AM

Warlock is a bit better, but still a long way below wizard or cleric.

Below even a Sorcerer, since even they can put one word in front of another.

hamishspence

2010-06-01, 07:23 AM

The main advantage a Warlock has is it's abilities never run out.

Which doesn't usually make that much of a difference.

Another noncore class reference- "18th level incarnum user":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html

Deliverance

2010-06-01, 07:33 AM

In combat, the Monk/Paladin will have a will save that's better by 4 points when not saving vs enchantment and by two points vs enchantment. During a surprise attack, before the barbarian rages, he does not get the +3 from raging and is at a disadvantage.

Strictly speaking, since you are including spending a feat (Iron Will) on the Barbarian build but not the Monk/Paladin build, the proper comparison is better by 6 points vs. non-enchantment and 4 points vs enchantment.

The barbarian may be the one most likely to take Iron Will - but that's precisely because his will saving throw is so bad and cannot be taken as a factor in comparing how good the classes are at avoiding spells.

I either case, I consider a difference of +2 in will saving throws significant, +4 huge, and +6 so much greater that even talking about how it doesn't seriously inconvenience you if up against enemies targeting your will save is alien to me. In your example, being at a -7 (or -9 if both or neither took Iron Will) in a surprise attack, I don't consider the barbarian to be "disadvantaged" - I consider him to be "probably taken out of the equation" assuming that the party is being surprise attacked by something with attacks targeting the will save and capable of seriously threatening the party in the first place. He may be saved by luck or by attacks prioritising other targets in the party but, if not, too bad. :smallsmile:

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-01, 07:37 AM

Hold on. You have just admitted that OotS isn't restricted to core by mentioning the SRD and homebrew.

Uhm dude, the srd is technically the definition of core. As to homebrew yes, anything the giant comes up with on his own is free to be thrown into the comic.

Being very angry.

Yeah, +3 at level 11 and a bag of chips will get you.. a bag of chips.

That you have great survivability vs spellcasting. Seriously, Enervation.

Enervation isn't that bad *when you're in a party* if your party can't drop the wizard or at least interupt a few of his spells in the 5 rounds it till take to kill you then something's going on if the wizard is fighting on his own. If the wizard is firing into melee with that ranged touch attack and doesn't have point blank and precise shot he's not going to hit the broad side of anything with an effective -8 to the attack

At the level OOtS is at, roughly 14 I think, a Barbarian will have a base will save of +4. One can reasonably expect a Cloak of Resistance for another +4. He can get +3 from Greater Rage, +2 from Iron Will, and +4 vs Enchantment from Indomitable will. +10 when not raging for a will save isn't really horrible - it's about as much as you'd expect from the average sorcerer or wizard, since they do not typically have more Wis than is needed to avoid a penalty (some dump it if they're strapped for stats) and the base will save for an arcane caster is +9 at level 14.

But you're comparing a naked wizard and a fully dressed barbarian why?

At level 14, the BEST level your barbarian can be for the comparison since he just got a big increase in his will save, the paladin monk could easily have

A base will save of

+3 monk Base,

+2 still mind,

+3 Paladin base

+2 iron will

+4 cloak of resistance

+3 from charisma

for a whopping +17... 24 7 365 come hell, high water, long fight or surprise rounds. +16 if we use your charisma. The only downside here is that the cloak of resistance and cloak of charismia occupy the same slot. The upside is that you can make use of spells that up one or the other.

[QUOTE]
I'm not sure what Charisma we should give the Monk/Paladin, since he's being rather strained for stats what with needing Str, Dex, Con, Wis and Cha, but let's say a 14.

Right, this is NOT a build I would ever try on point buy, or with my usual run of dice rolling luck.

Yes, you get a better will save if you have good stats and etc. Barbarians are not at that huge a disadvantage as you think, though, when it comes to will saves. At least, not more than your typical arcane caster.

You gave the barbarian a few assumptions there that you didn't give to the paladin monk, like iron will. Also, a level 13 or 20 the analysis is quite different, since that ability you pick up at level 14 (gee.. why did you pick that level) skews things in your favor.

If anything for the barbarian i would have used dwarf, since the paladin monk can't do that without taking xp penalties. Thats a +2 to 99% of all saves right there.

If only there was some way for someone who can cast spells to get out of Resilient Sphere. Perhaps if they could somehow teleport, or suppress magical effects, or disintegrate things, or dispel the magic, or have some sort of item that granted continuous Freedom of Movement, or...

I don't know if freedom of movement would work. I don't think your build would send the sorcerer spellcasting level up high enough to cast teleport in a reasonable amount of time for most campaigns.

Claudius Maximus

2010-06-01, 08:33 AM

Uhm dude, the srd is technically the definition of core.

No, it's not. Core is the Player's Handbook, the DMG, and the first Monster Manual. The SRD contains material from several other sources.

Morty

2010-06-01, 08:55 AM

Belkar and Miko are much more effective than they should be? Wow, that's a newsflash.
I also agree that it's both understandable and good Giant doesn't pay attention to optimization. If he did, he'd have to jump through the hoops to tell the story he wants to tell but it'd have no positive impact on the comic. As it is, the power level sticks to a) what the Giant intends it to be and, partly, b) what the designers wanted it to be before it turned out rules don't work as they should. Of course, it's not something new either.

Prodan

2010-06-01, 11:10 AM

Strictly speaking, since you are including spending a feat (Iron Will) on the Barbarian build but not the Monk/Paladin build, the proper comparison is better by 6 points vs. non-enchantment and 4 points vs enchantment.
I factored it in, I believe, when I said that the monk/paladin had access to the same boosting options. Correction is not necessary.

Prodan

2010-06-01, 11:20 AM

Yeah, +3 at level 11 and a bag of chips will get you.. a bag of chips.
So +3 to your will save from Charisma is about as useful, then?

Enervation isn't that bad *when you're in a party*
I like how you're arguing that you're ok vs Enervation since you have a party which will protect you and beat the wizard up beforehand.

if your party can't drop the wizard or at least interupt a few of his spells in the 5 rounds it till take to kill you then something's going on if the wizard is fighting on his own.
It's called optimization.

If the wizard is firing into melee with that ranged touch attack and doesn't have point blank and precise shot he's not going to hit the broad side of anything with an effective -8 to the attack
True Strike.

But you're comparing a naked wizard and a fully dressed barbarian why?
I am not. The base will save of a barbarian is +4 from class levels and then +2 from Iron Will, and +4 if vs Enchantments. This is at most 3 points behind most wizards before anything else comes into play. A wizard with Wis as a dump stat vs a Barb with a small Wis modifier would even the field a bit more.

If the Wizard takes Iron Will, then things are different, but I do not believe that happens often just from what I see around myself and on GitP.

At level 14, the BEST level your barbarian can be for the comparison since he just got a big increase in his will save, the paladin monk could easily have
Hold on, how much Paladin and how much Monk are we talking about?

A base will save of

+3 monk Base,

+2 still mind,

+3 Paladin base

+2 iron will

+4 cloak of resistance

+3 from charisma

for a whopping +17... 24 7 365 come hell, high water, long fight or surprise rounds. +16 if we use your charisma. The only downside here is that the cloak of resistance and cloak of charismia occupy the same slot. The upside is that you can make use of spells that up one or the other.

Still Mind only works on Enchantments. Also, you haven't factored Wisdom into your score. I may have made the same mistake myself, come to think of it.

You gave the barbarian a few assumptions there that you didn't give to the paladin monk, like iron will.
Unless I misremember my post or made a calculation error, Iron Will should have been factored in under the "monk/paladin has access to the same boosts" clause of my previous post.

Let's see... what I said was the Barbarian had a constant +10, +13 when raging, and +4 vs enchantments.

My paladin should have a paladin had a +18 static will save, and +20 vs Enchantment. I think I may have miscalculated the other will save. Likely forgot to factor in Wis.

Your paladin should have a will save of +17 static, if we assume 14 Wis and get rid of the Still Mind bonus since that only applies to will saves.

Does that strike you as more accurate?

Here's the question, though: is a +10 static will save, +13 raging, bad enough that at level 13, the barbarian will "Rampaging barbarian for the party Charm person/charm monster/dominat person = rampaging barbarian for the opposition. Fear= rampaging yellowstreak in the opposite direction"?

Also, a level 13 or 20 the analysis is quite different, since that ability you pick up at level 14 (gee.. why did you pick that level) skews things in your favor.

Because that's where OotS is at?

At level 13, the Barbarian's static will save will still be +10, +13 when raging. Feel free to calculate things off of that.

Aside: Rings of calling the kettle black if you ask me.

If anything for the barbarian i would have used dwarf, since the paladin monk can't do that without taking xp penalties. Thats a +2 to 99% of all saves right there. We were comparing class abilities, weren't we?

I don't know if freedom of movement would work.
You're quite possibly right.

I don't think your build would send the sorcerer spellcasting level up high enough to cast teleport in a reasonable amount of time for most campaigns.
1. Dimension Door is a 4th level spell. Unless the campaign refuses to budge past the midpoint, you can have it.
2. The phrase "In most campaigns" makes your position look good and valid at first glance, but is utterly meaningless unless you lack statistical evidence of the nature of most campaigns.

Deliverance

2010-06-01, 11:31 AM

I factored it in, I believe, when I said that the monk/paladin had access to the same boosting options. Correction is not necessary.
You are right and I am wrong. My apologies.

EDIT: I still consider a +2 difference big and +4 huge, though, but the difference is obviously not as great as I thought so long as the Barbarian gets the benefit of raging. (EDIT to EDIT - or when not raging. Oh, how one can tie oneself up with unclear formulations :smallbiggrin:)

Prodan

2010-06-01, 11:32 AM

No apologies necessary. I did not make it clear enough.

AceOfFools

2010-06-01, 11:57 AM

Monk, even multiclass monk, has a few other benefits over barbarians when it comes to fighting casters, especially under the assumption of cheesy stats (as was made earlier).

Firstly, a much higher touch AC, which is the best defence against energy drain spells such as enervation short of the cleric spells that grant immunity. It's genuine ineffectiveness against someone who specializes in these spells is more a energy drain being unbalanced; but my players aren't that bitter about it.

Secondly, the bonus feats a monk gets at first level are great at targeting spellcasters (Stunning fist is a fort save not protected by anything but immunity to stunning, which is difficult to get by class, even if the save isn't exactly game breaking; Grappling is so potent an anti-caster tactic that a caster that doesn't take plans for dealing with it isn't optimized).

Also, Paladin's get immunity to fear at 3+, which cuts off the most virulent non-Enchantment will saves (at least in core).

On the other hand, Barbarians generally have substantially higher stopping power, and while I've never played a monk/paladin, I have played barbarians whose philosophy when it came to hostile enchantment was "The best defence is a strong offence." (Game ended 6~8th level, but it worked out OK the one or two times enchanter-types came up).

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Does any one else find the way character tiers are being used here, hilarious? As originally posited, they were describing the effectiveness and ability to contribute towards to combats in their stated role of equally optimized builds. They characterize the upper limit of class potency, and the ease of avoiding situations where they are powerless.

Prodan

2010-06-01, 12:02 PM

Secondly, the bonus feats a monk gets at first level are great at targeting spellcasters (Stunning fist is a fort save not protected by anything but immunity to stunning, which is difficult to get by class, even if the save isn't exactly game breaking; Grappling is so potent an anti-caster tactic that a caster that doesn't take plans for dealing with it isn't optimized).
Theoretically yes. It's just a pity optimizing enough to deal with grappling and avoiding Stunning Fist is easier than it rightfully should be.

Also, Paladin's get immunity to fear at 3+, which cuts off the most virulent non-Enchantment will saves (at least in core).
There's always Slow.

JonestheSpy

2010-06-01, 06:36 PM

The very concept of thinking that a good story needs to adhere to the collective theories a bunch of gaming geeks have come up with via internet chatting is inherently flawed, in my opinion.

Obviously, a strip largely based on the game rules should not fly in the face of those rules, but that's about it. Maybe no one in an "optimized" group would be running a single class fighter, let alone one with above-average intelligence and wisdom, but who the boop cares?

And really, I much prefer RB's looseness with some rules to strict adherence. The rules are supposed to be a simulation, after all, and no rules system can account for all possibilities in a situation without being insanely unwieldy. In the strip, people are often momentarily stunned after taking a lot of damage or being hit with a powerful spell like Energy Drain, for instance. There's absolutely no game mechanic for that because it would slow down combat way to much BUT it is completely believable when you look at how people react to being clobbered in real life.

It's not just "the rule of cool" that Miko is a kickass warrior, it's not subjugating the narrative to an arbitrary system that can't really account for the kind of variables good storytelling demands.

Shale

2010-06-01, 07:10 PM

Ont he topic of stat dependencies, it seems pretty clear that OotS works on a dice-roll system, rather than point buy. There's no other way for Roy to have the high STR and CON he needs to be a good fighter and meatshield plus the good WIS, INT and CHA to have the best mental aggregate of the team, and not have DEX as an extreme dump stat (which he certainly doesn't seem to). Meanwhile, Vaarsuvius has 18 INT, but poor STR, poor CON, poor CHA, mediocre-at-best WIS and if s/he has 18 DEX it's pretty well hidden.

What that means for characters like Miko is that, in a big enough pool of characters with PC classes - say, the entire Sapphire Guard - somebody's eventually going to roll a whole lot of 16s, 17s and 18s, and that person is going to do pretty damn well with a build that requires lots of high stats. Sort of like, out of a group of 100+ paladins, one of them has to have more HP than anybody else, and that person turned out to be named O-Chul. It's just the law of averages in action.

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-06, 01:32 PM

So +3 to your will save from Charisma is about as useful, then?

Your +3 is static. The +3 from cha can scale with level.

I like how you're arguing that you're ok vs Enervation since you have a party which will protect you and beat the wizard up beforehand.

Yes, because as stated above, you do not make a D&D character to function alone in a gladatorial style arena. You make one to function in a party. I am not making anything to duel with here. If you're making a fighting type you're making someone to stand in front, keep the mooks off the wizard and deal consistant damage every round.

It's called optimization.

Its called loosing sight of what it is you're making.. someone to function WITH other people. I don't care if other optimizers do the same thing. Remember what mom said about the brooklyn bridge? Fine. you suck at taking down a flying enervating wizard. GUess what? If the wizard is firing enervations at you you're doing your job of keeping the party alive.

True Strike.

Then you're only getting pinged every other round, since truestrike is not a free action to cast.

I am not. The base will save of a barbarian is +4 from class levels and then +2 from Iron Will, and +4 if vs Enchantments. This is at most 3 points behind most wizards before anything else comes into play. A wizard with Wis as a dump stat vs a Barb with a small Wis modifier would even the field a bit more.

But its still a pretty uneven field.

Hold on, how much Paladin and how much Monk are we talking about?
2-3 monk, the rest paladin. You can't switch back and forth between them (they both have that rule that once you're out there's no comming back)

Still Mind only works on Enchantments. Also, you haven't factored Wisdom into your score. I may have made the same mistake myself, come to think of it.

Wasn't a mistake on my part i was just copying your homework.

Unless I misremember my post or made a calculation error, Iron Will should have been factored in under the "monk/paladin has access to the same boosts" clause of my previous post.

Since we had different numbers i think not.

My paladin should have a paladin had a +18 static will save, and +20 vs Enchantment. I think I may have miscalculated the other will save. Likely forgot to factor in Wis.

i think it was the iron will

Your paladin should have a will save of +17 static, if we assume 14 Wis and get rid of the Still Mind bonus since that only applies to will saves.

... uhm, no. The still mind bonus is important. And will saves are what we're trying to figure out here. If you mean because it only applies to enchantment, MOST will saves are enchantment.

Here's the question, though: is a +10 static will save, +13 raging, bad enough that at level 13, the barbarian will "Rampaging barbarian for the party Charm person/charm monster/dominat person = rampaging barbarian for the opposition. Fear= rampaging yellowstreak in the opposite direction"?

lets see.. at 13th level chances are the bbged is going to be around 16- 17th or so. Thats 8th level spells, so 10 + 8 level + 4 (minimum int of 18) = a will save of 22.. leaving you worse than a 50 50 chance of being the wizards plaything when the mass charm person comes out if the wizard is barely competant and wins init. Assuming that at that level they have some level adjustments to their primary spellcasting stat and a +4 to +6 int/cha/wis item it gets a lot worse., even with the raging bonus.

Because that's where OotS is at?

Fine fine.

1. Dimension Door is a 4th level spell. Unless the campaign refuses to budge past the midpoint, you can have it.

Sure, at 17th level by that build. (dragon disciple doesn't add spellcaster levels)

2. The phrase "In most campaigns" makes your position look good and valid at first glance, but is utterly meaningless unless you lack statistical evidence of the nature of most campaigns.

Fine. Would you like to try to tell me that most campaigns last a reasonable amount of time after 17th level? Unless you disagree with the point you're just flailing at the epistomology for no reason.

That thing you just did? I saw it?

Hey now, what thing? The coyote asked ME for the mayonase...

Gametime

2010-06-06, 03:01 PM

Sure, at 17th level by that build. (dragon disciple doesn't add spellcaster levels)

At the risk of sounding flippant, intentionally disregarding the actual Sorcadin build he offered and only looking at what a Dragon Disciple can do is not a particularly convincing position.

Eldritch Knight is a far better gish than a Dragon Disciple, if we're restricting ourselves to core, and gets 4th level spells at 11th (assuming 2 levels of Paladin). Still fairly late, but well within the reach of a lot of campaigns, I'd wager.

Prowl

2010-06-06, 04:16 PM

If you have been following the strips since the beginning, then you should already know that non-optimal character builds are a running theme/joke throughout the whole comic. Other than the ill-fated character in #216, I don't think we've seen an actually-optimized character, PC or NPC, anywhere.

And this makes sense, because in the real world people aren't created optimally for what they will eventually be, in the vast majority of cases - that's where reality diverges significantly from how D&D is generally played.

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-06, 09:32 PM

At the risk of sounding flippant, intentionally disregarding the actual Sorcadin build he offered and only looking at what a Dragon Disciple can do is not a particularly convincing position.

Eldritch Knight is a far better gish than a Dragon Disciple, if we're restricting ourselves to core, and gets 4th level spells at 11th (assuming 2 levels of Paladin). Still fairly late, but well within the reach of a lot of campaigns, I'd wager.

You sound more than flippant. Since you want to question my honesty, would you mind telling me what criterea i'm supposed to judge the core build he provided on if not the order it was given to me?

YOU tell me, since you think i'm intentionally disregarding what i was given, what level the core build that i was given actually casts dimension door?

No, Im not intentionally ignoring anything. I am not delibrately "misreading" what you mean, and no, i am not screwing with you. If this isn't what you meant, come out and say it. If you think i'm ignoring the non core build, i have to wonder why i've qualified "considering core only" within this thread.

Eloi

2010-06-06, 09:37 PM

Elan is well optimized, isn't he?

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-06, 09:48 PM

Elan is well optimized, isn't he?

Honestly that would depend entirely on the dm. Illusions are very subjective in what they can and can't do and what will draw a will save with what kind of bonus.

On the othe hand, elan is too stupid to use his illusions to a 10th of their potential.

As a bard his spell progression is slower, and thus the save DC's are easier. As a bard i usually try to stick with mostly buffing spells.

Also.. bard.

Eloi

2010-06-06, 09:49 PM

Yes but his prestige class is Dashing Swordsman (cha modifier instead of str in battle), and he has a high charisma. How is that not optimized?

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-06, 09:53 PM

Yes but his prestige class is Dashing Swordsman (cha modifier instead of str in battle), and he has a high charisma. How is that not optimized?

Because in 3.5 eugene greenhilt is, unfortunately, right. Once you hit mid levels and higher poking things with metal objects to kill them is a waste of time when you can simply spell them to death. We don't know the specifics of the dashing swordsman, but i would be surprised if it allowed spell progression. In 3.5 the optimization mantra is spells spells spells.

Eloi

2010-06-06, 09:56 PM

But Elan already has spells, why would he need any more in a prestige class?

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-06, 10:02 PM

But Elan already has spells, why would he need any more in a prestige class?

Compared to what he could have, he gets fewer and gets lower level spells every time he takes a class that doesn't increase his bardic spellcasting. Even though he's vastly increasing his melee attack ability, he's still loosing more than he's gaining (or should gain if he had half a brain, or if the power of plot didn't keep melee relevant)

AxeD

2010-06-07, 09:54 AM

Yes but his prestige class is Dashing Swordsman (cha modifier instead of str in battle), and he has a high charisma. How is that not optimized?

I'd say that for a bard of his level, he's about as optimized (using core+homebrew) as you could probably get. I mean, sacrificing 1 (or more) level of bard for the perks of the Dashing Swordsman is a pretty good trade considering how useless he was in melee beforehand. He'd be significantly better if he could add his Cha modifier to damage (when he makes a pun), otherwise he's still pretty useless at high levels.

Then again, its pretty hard to tell how optimized Elan is considering he rarely casts spells (we don't know what spells he has in his arsenal).

factotum

2010-06-07, 10:38 AM

Well, we know he pretty much specialises in illusions, since every spell we've seen him cast is one (apart from Mass Cure Light Wounds). We also know he got Neutralise Poison at his last level-up, but he didn't have it before.

SoC175

2010-06-07, 01:55 PM

I'd say that for a bard of his level, he's about as optimized (using core+homebrew) as you could probably get. I mean, sacrificing 1 (or more) level of bard for the perks of the Dashing Swordsman is a pretty good trade considering how useless he was in melee beforehand. Unless you factor in the opportunity costs of not having taken the bard PrC that extends the bard spellcasting to full 9 levels of spell. That would have almost instandly made him the second to third powerfull member of the OOtS (below V, either above or below Durkon), just imagine Elan being able to throw fireballs, chain lightnings and disintegrations

Shale

2010-06-07, 01:57 PM

just imagine Elan being able to throw fireballs, chain lightnings and disintegrations

And you think that would help?

Mellisan

2010-06-07, 02:51 PM

Unless you factor in the opportunity costs of not having taken the bard PrC that extends the bard spellcasting to full 9 levels of spell. That would have almost instandly made him the second to third powerfull member of the OOtS (below V, either above or below Durkon), just imagine Elan being able to throw fireballs, chain lightnings and disintegrations

Spell-wise, Elan would probably better serve the group with divination spells like Legend Lore and Find the Path to help acquire knowledge about the Gates and their locations or the mysterious individuals they encounter in their journeys. For example they have some time while they wait for dinner right now. A legend lore about Tarquin, Girard, or the empress might glean some information important to the quest. His desire for dramatic and unexpected reveals would probably prohibit this though.

If he were to go the evocation route, Shout would probably be better to diversify the group's damage types.

Travel and communication spells are another area the group is lacking at times. Shadow Walk and Dream or Whispering Wind could prove useful.

Firepower is actually the thing the party already has in abundance.

AgentofOdd

2010-06-07, 03:07 PM

Kish

2010-06-07, 03:11 PM

Unless you factor in the opportunity costs of not having taken the bard PrC that extends the bard spellcasting to full 9 levels of spell.
Until he talked to Julio Scoundrel, Elan thought prestige classes were for munchkins.

(Frankly, he was right, and Sublime Chord is Exhibit A.)

Mellisan

2010-06-07, 03:27 PM

Out of curiosity, what's the name of this PrC please?

The Sublime Chord from Complete Arcane (p61).

Until he talked to Julio Scoundrel, Elan thought prestige classes were for munchkins.

(Frankly, he was right, and Sublime Chord is Exhibit A.)

That's not really fair. Prestige classes are a great way to specialize your character and play a particular style. Certainly some of them are unbalanced relative to other options, but the same could be said for a number of feats. Even within the core books there's imbalance between some options, but people still play bards on occasion. I think the important distinction is intent. In this case it would make little sense for Elan to take Sublime Chord since the flavor of the prc doesn't fit his personality at all. Study of mathematics and insight into the workings of the universe doesn't quite fit. Dashing Swordsman on the other hand suits him perfectly.

Southern Cross

2010-06-07, 03:58 PM

Not always - while the mindbender Prc has lots of cool (but nasty) abilities, it's limited casting progression (5 over ten levels) makes it a prime target for level dipping.
And don't get me started on the dragon kith Prc from Arcana Evolved.....

stabbybelkar

2010-06-07, 04:18 PM

There's no evidence that OotS is restricted to core though.
Indeed, In fact, if Tsueku being alowed to cast electric orb is any indication then there is accually proof that it ISN'T!

Prodan

2010-06-07, 04:33 PM

Until he talked to Julio Scoundrel, Elan thought prestige classes were for munchkins.

(Frankly, he was right, and Sublime Chord is Exhibit A.)

Then that must make Dragon Disciple Exhibit B.

Prodan

2010-06-07, 04:49 PM

Your +3 is static. The +3 from cha can scale with level.

Actually, the Barb. will save bonus from Rage increases with level as well.

Yes, because as stated above, you do not make a D&D character to function alone in a gladatorial style arena. You make one to function in a party. I am not making anything to duel with here. If you're making a fighting type you're making someone to stand in front, keep the mooks off the wizard and deal consistant damage every round.

Except, your Monk/Paladin with high mental stats for saves can't really fight well, keep mooks off the wizard, and deal constant damage every round, can he?

Its called loosing sight of what it is you're making.. someone to function WITH other people.
That's the goal? Then the barbarian functions with other people better because he can actually fulfill the role of beatstick, as opposed to your Monk/Paladin.

I don't care if other optimizers do the same thing. Remember what mom said about the brooklyn bridge?
Your mom or mine? Mine called it a wonderful work of architecture.

Fine. you suck at taking down a flying enervating wizard. GUess what? If the wizard is firing enervations at you you're doing your job of keeping the party alive.
I think you're missing the point; You said being a monk/paladin helps survive what a wizard puts out at you. I am pointing out that isn't quite true.

Then you're only getting pinged every other round, since truestrike is not a free action to cast.
Is if you quicken it.

But its still a pretty uneven field.

+3 is nothing, remember?

... uhm, no. The still mind bonus is important. And will saves are what we're trying to figure out here. If you mean because it only applies to enchantment, MOST will saves are enchantment.

Glitterdust. Pyrotechnics. Scare. Fear. Slow. Phantasmal Killer. Scry. Hallucinatory Terrain. Silent Image. Minor Image. Major Image. Persistent Image. Permanent Image. Illusory Wall. Color Spray. Cause Fear. Hypnotic Pattern. Rainbow Pattern. Scintillating Pattern. Bestow Curse. Magic Jar. Telekinesis. Sanctuary. Repulsion. Sequester. Trap the Soul. Sunburst. Imprisonment. Disjunction. Soul Bind.

lets see.. at 13th level chances are the bbged is going to be around 16- 17th or so. Thats 8th level spells, so 10 + 8 level + 4 (minimum int of 18) = a will save of 22.. leaving you worse than a 50 50 chance of being the wizards plaything when the mass charm person comes out if the wizard is barely competant and wins init.
I am amused that you conveniently forgot that the barb would get a +5 to his will save against the Charm Person.

Perhaps you'd prefer to use another spell, like Insanity?

Well, all I can say is, "Fine. you suck at taking down a flying enervating enchanting wizard. GUess what? If the wizard is firing enervations enchantments at you you're doing your job of keeping the party alive."

Sure, at 17th level by that build. (dragon disciple doesn't add spellcaster levels) Wand.

Fine. Would you like to try to tell me that most campaigns last a reasonable amount of time after 17th level? Unless you disagree with the point you're just flailing at the epistomology for no reason.

Except, you know, wands.

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-07, 09:59 PM

Actually, the Barb. will save bonus from Rage increases with level as well.

Now you're trying to count it twice. Is it one bonus or one that scales over level?

Except, your Monk/Paladin with high mental stats for saves can't really fight well, keep mooks off the wizard, and deal constant damage every round, can he?

Why not? Oh, right, because you're assuming that we're doing point buy and high mental stats automatically means low physical ones despite statements to the contrary.

That's the goal? Then the barbarian functions with other people better because he can actually fulfill the role of beatstick, as opposed to your Monk/Paladin.

The idea isn't to be a beat stick its to be a meat shield.

Your mom or mine? Mine called it a wonderful work of architecture.

*puts on an apron* If all of your friends were jumping off of the brooklyn bridge would you do it too?

The problem is those nay saying the optimization of some members of the order are comparing

1) apples to oranges.

Sure, wizards are better at damaging things than warriors. But they're not better at playing meat shield. The wizard being a better character overall doesn't do it squat if you're seeing how well a build meat shields. That a mazarati is faster and handles better than a pickup and has a cool leather interior doesn't do you squat if you need to haul logs around the back 40.

2) Core to non core. Yes, 3.5 didn't have power creep so much as power sprint. Prestige classes leave no discernable reason for remaining any core class (except mayby druid) past 6th level. But these options are not readily available in ootsverse. Non core prestige classes are a toucy subject because they're not under the ogl. Additionally, requirements such as "You be taught the prestige class by an existing member of the class" that are glossed over in most campaigns are apparently in force here.

3) Freedom to mishmash prestige classes vs the loss of identity.

Cheeser builds often use bizare combinations of regular and prestige classes that non all dm's (including the one in charge of oots) may allow. Prestige classes are dive bombed for 1-2 levels for the frontloaded abilities and then abandoned. In oots , classes are apparently part of who and what you are. You ARE a fighter. You ARE a barbarian. Level dipping in other classes seems ok (but rare) but we've never seen someone that was part wizard part archmage part loremaster part camel part initiate of the seven fold veil part eldritch kanigit part dragonslayer (the ultimate 1 cheese level class)

I think you're missing the point; You said being a monk/paladin helps survive what a wizard puts out at you. I am pointing out that isn't quite true.

You're trying to make the case that enervation makes it untrue. What makes your case fail is the large number of castings of enervation that are ALWAYS required to kill someone of a level that should be having enervations cast at them. In other words, charm person et all can be one shot one kill. Enervation CANNOT one shot you.

Is if you quicken it.

Then its a 4th level spells, and people you fight can take a lot more enervations.

+3 is nothing, remember?

A bunch of them add up though

Glitterdust. Purotechnics.

A meat shield still does most of their job blind.

Scare. Fear.

Paladin, immune.

Slow.

Minor annoyance.

Phantasmal Killer.

Paladin. Immune.

Scry.

Please. Like they don't know you're comming.

Hallucinatory Terrain.

No save till you interact with it anyway.

Silent Image. Minor Image. Major Image. Persistent Image. Permanent Image.

Not deadly.

Cause Fear.

Paladin. Immune.

Hypnotic Pattern.

Anoying.

Rainbow Pattern.

Scintillating Pattern. Bestow Curse. Magic Jar.

Magic jar is a nasty one. But see below.

I am amused that you conveniently forgot that the barb would get a +5 to his will save against the Charm Person.

Nothing convinient about it. I plum forgot.

And you treated the barbarian's +4 vs enchantment as it it applied to all will saves when it too only applies to enchantment. Enchantment is worthless on a will save when its the monks still mind, but is factored in fully for the barbarians +4 ?

Indomitable Will (Ex): While in a rage, a barbarian of 14th level or higher gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves he also receives during his rage.

Perhaps you'd prefer to use another spell, like Insanity?

Sure, why not.

Well, all I can say is, "Fine. you suck at taking down a flying enervating enchanting wizard. GUess what? If the wizard is firing enervations enchantments at you you're doing your job of keeping the party alive."

No, because against a barbarian the wizards only going to have to fire 1-2. The chances of 4 enervations bringing down a 12th level character are 1 in 256.

[/quote]Wand.
Except, you know, wands.[/QUOTE]

Which don't require anything other than a 1 level dip into sorcerer or wizard.

Wymmerdann

2010-06-07, 11:50 PM

This debate seems to be completely pointless. One of you is arguing off the assumption of a high-rolled monk-paladin (which makes sense since it rebutts the initial claim that Miko had a poor build and was stated as having great stats).

The other (Prodan) is arguing for a point-buy character, which would make sense, if we hadn't already limited the question to someone with Miko's stats.

Also, saying something like "Aha, but this specific spell (or indeed spells)" gets around your exceedingly high saves, does not invalidate the build as a whole. 2-3 levels of Monk entails very, very small detriment in terms of bab and hp for the whole raft of benefits it gives the character.

Most of which were illustrated in Miko's search for the Oots.

If this debate really needs to continue, do so under the assumption that Miko's lowest stat is about a 15 and that the rest are a tad higher. It's a safe bet.

AxeD

2010-06-08, 02:58 AM

The Sublime Chord from Complete Arcane (p61).

Look, no main characters/villians get non-core classes in the story. IMHO, the giant only mentions non-core stuff as a joke, like the cheesy-halfogre, or the incarium guy (only mentioned- never shown).

I doubt non-core classes are even available, since if they existed, most of the PCs would have them, purely because they offer so much more optimisation then the core classes.

I think we can all agree that seeing as only core stuff is applied to the characters, they're not going to have access to any non-core crap (since they would if they could). ERGO, there's no point claiming that Elan should take all of these obscure prestige classes.

kabbes

2010-06-08, 04:30 AM

I know sweet FA about D&D and its almost autistically-detailed rules. But this debate has shown me one thing, from a wider standpoint. Regardless of whether it is the best class you can possibly have for fighting purposes, the "Monk-paladin" is a perfectly reasonable thing to create and use.

So that's that, really. It is supposed to be about role-playing, after all. If a story calls for a character that trained as a monk then became a paladin then there wouldn't be much point in creating her as a barbarian, would there? She functions adequately in battles and more than adequately as an antagonist.

factotum

2010-06-08, 06:43 AM

So that's that, really. It is supposed to be about role-playing, after all.

You'd think that, but a D&D powergamer would rather cut off their arm than spend a single non-optimised point on their characters, regardless of what background they've created for them.

Kish

2010-06-08, 07:38 AM

I think we can all agree that seeing as only core stuff is applied to the characters, they're not going to have access to any non-core crap (since they would if they could).
No, we most certainly cannot agree on the parenthetical premise (not everyone values optimization above all), and so we cannot agree on the conclusion, either.

Shale

2010-06-08, 08:20 AM

Look, no main characters/villians get non-core classes in the story. IMHO, the giant only mentions non-core stuff as a joke, like the cheesy-halfogre, or the incarium guy (only mentioned- never shown).
I doubt non-core classes are

And Elan's third-party non-core prestige class.

Prodan

2010-06-08, 08:22 AM

You'd think that, but a D&D powergamer would rather cut off their arm than spend a single non-optimised point on their characters, regardless of what background they've created for them.

Don't presume to speak for everyone. My barbarians routinely have points in Craft: Poetry.

Prodan

2010-06-08, 08:41 AM

Now you're trying to count it twice. Is it one bonus or one that scales over level?
Those two categories are not mutually exclusive... I don't see your point.

Why not? Oh, right, because you're assuming that we're doing point buy and high mental stats automatically means low physical ones despite statements to the contrary.
My apologies. We can assume all 18's for both characters if you like, in which case... both saves go up.

The idea isn't to be a beat stick its to be a meat shield.
How do you shield a wizard with your meat body?

*puts on an apron* If all of your friends were jumping off of the brooklyn bridge would you do it too?
If it was in order to bungee jump onto the deck of a passing cargo ship guarded by US Marines in order to take pictures of an illegal prototype Metal Gear, then... yes.

Sure, wizards are better at damaging things than warriors. But they're not better at playing meat shield. The wizard being a better character overall doesn't do it squat if you're seeing how well a build meat shields. That a mazarati is faster and handles better than a pickup and has a cool leather interior doesn't do you squat if you need to haul logs around the back 40.
Except, the Mazarati is also a Transformer.

2) Core to non core. Yes, 3.5 didn't have power creep so much as power sprint. Prestige classes leave no discernable reason for remaining any core class (except mayby druid) past 6th level. But these options are not readily available in ootsverse. Non core prestige classes are a toucy subject because they're not under the ogl. Additionally, requirements such as "You be taught the prestige class by an existing member of the class" that are glossed over in most campaigns are apparently in force here.
Hold on. Even in core, Wizards went into Loremaster and Archmage, and Clerics went into Thamaturge.

3) Freedom to mishmash prestige classes vs the loss of identity.
How does doing that lose idenity? I think you're introducting a false dichotomy.

Cheeser builds often use bizare combinations of regular and prestige classes that non all dm's (including the one in charge of oots) may allow.
Or go straight full caster.

Prestige classes are dive bombed for 1-2 levels for the frontloaded abilities and then abandoned.
Prestige classes such as Incantatrix, Planar Shepard, Beholder Mage, Tainted Scholar, Swiftblade, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil...

In oots , classes are apparently part of who and what you are. You ARE a fighter. You ARE a barbarian. Level dipping in other classes seems ok (but rare) but
Belkar is a Ranger/Barbarian, Thog is a Barbarian/Fighter, Girard is a Range/Sorcerer, Miko is a Monk/Paladin, Nale is complicated, and Elan thought of becoming a Wizard.

Haley uses a Longbow, so she either took a level of Fighter at some point, or spent a feat on MWP: Longbow.

we've never seen someone that was part wizard part archmage part loremaster part camel part initiate of the seven fold veil part eldritch kanigit part dragonslayer (the ultimate 1 cheese level class)

Ah... no.

You're trying to make the case that enervation makes it untrue. What makes your case fail is the large number of castings of enervation that are ALWAYS required to kill someone of a level that should be having enervations cast at them. In other words, charm person et all can be one shot one kill. Enervation CANNOT one shot you.
At high levels, you mean? Yes, one enervation can't one shot you. That's very true. If it reduces you to uselessness, however, which is pretty good.

Also, Charm Person isn't a one shot one kill either. Charmed people won't go murder their allies. You're thinking Dominate Person.

Then its a 4th level spells, and people you fight can take a lot more enervations.
Quicken True Strike is a 5th level spell. And I'm not sure what the second half of that sentence is, but I would like to point out you can get quite a few enervations if you know how. Also, metamagic. You can have Empowered Enervations at level 11 onwards.

A meat shield still does most of their job blind.
If you're blind, you're not hitting people. If you're not hitting people, how do you stop enemies from going past you, killing the person you were protecting, and laughing?

Paladin, immune.
I'm just listing will save spells that aren't enchantments.

Minor annoyance.
Slow prevents people from moving and attacking, and kills full attacks. This is pretty significant. You are either unfamiliar with the spell or downplaying its power.

Interestingly enough, you treat Charm Person as something much more powerful than it actually is.

Please. Like they don't know you're comming.
They infact did not.

No save till you interact with it anyway.
No save vs enchantments until they are cast on you.

Not deadly.
And charm person kills people outright, does it?

Anoying.

See above comments regarding charm person.

And you treated the barbarian's +4 vs enchantment as it it applied to all will saves when it too only applies to enchantment.
Pretty sure I had seperate numbers for static will save, will save when raging, and will save vs enchantment.

No, because against a barbarian the wizards only going to have to fire 1-2.
Why is that?

The chances of 4 enervations bringing down a 12th level character are 1 in 256.
Except, at that level people have access to Empowered Enervation.

Which don't require anything other than a 1 level dip into sorcerer or wizard.
I note you're not disputing the actual point.

kabbes

2010-06-08, 08:58 AM

Holy crap. Death-by-quote.

Johel

2010-06-08, 10:02 AM

Yeah, you can see an argument is drifting into personal when people start cutting each other's post into bits and quoting said bits one after another.

I usually withdraw at that point.

Kish

2010-06-08, 10:15 AM

Don't presume to speak for everyone. My barbarians routinely have points in Craft: Poetry.
He didn't speak for everyone, he said "D&D powergamers."

Do you consider yourself a powergamer?

Prodan

2010-06-08, 10:16 AM

He didn't speak for everyone, he said "D&D powergamers."

Do you consider yourself a powergamer?

Very much so.

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-08, 10:18 AM

My apologies. We can assume all 18's for both characters if you like, in which case... both saves go up.

Right, but the paladin monk's go up twice as fast.

How do you shield a wizard with your meat body?

You stand in the narrowest part of the room and keep things from going over around or through you as best they can.

If it was in order to bungee jump onto the deck of a passing cargo ship guarded by US Marines in order to take pictures of an illegal prototype Metal Gear, then... yes.

But not just due to peer pressure.

Except, the Mazarati is also a Transformer.

Right, which CAN turn into a fighter, but its still not as good as the real thing. So the question is, if you need a pickup truck, how good of a pickup truck does it turn into? I don't think the wizard turns into a very good fighter. There is a good case for the druid doing that though.

Hold on. Even in core, Wizards went into Loremaster and Archmage, and Clerics went into Thamaturge. How does doing that lose idenity? I think you're introducting a false dichotomy.

Right. Your wizard became a loremaster or archmage. If you have 10 levels of wizard and 10 of Loremaster, you ARE a Loremaster. *opens fortune cookie* If you are everything, then you are nothing.

What is a Wizard 5 incantrix 1 initiate of the seven fold veil 3, Dragonslayer 1, Travelers guild 1 ?

Or go straight full caster.

Which is poweful, but not as strong as the power of cheese.

Belkar is a Ranger/Barbarian, Thog is a Barbarian/Fighter, Girard is a Range/Sorcerer, Miko is a Monk/Paladin, Nale is complicated, and Elan thought of becoming a Wizard.

Blekar is a ranger with a sprinkle of barbarian. He is a ranger

Thog took 2 levels of fighter cheese. He IS a barbarian.

Girard is apparently an illusionist (do we know if he's a sorcerer or wizard?) with 2 levels of ranger.. he IS an illusionist, he dables at rangering.

Nale is a bard via Albaquerque.

Elan thought of adding A level of wizard. It wouldn't change him from BEING a bard.

Haley uses a Longbow, so she either took a level of Fighter at some point, or spent a feat on MWP: Longbow.

Neither of which would stop her from being a rogue

At high levels, you mean? Yes, one enervation can't one shot you. That's very true. If it reduces you to uselessness, however, which is pretty good.

you're still in the optimizer gladatorial arena mindset. Reducing YOU to uselessness over 4 rounds does not render your PARTY useless.

Also, Charm Person isn't a one shot one kill either. Charmed people won't go murder their allies. You're thinking Dominate Person.

A charm person takes the charmee, effectively, out of the fight.

Quicken True Strike is a 5th level spell. And I'm not sure what the second half of that sentence is, but I would like to point out you can get quite a few enervations if you know how. Also, metamagic. You can have Empowered Enervations at level 11 onwards.

1) if anything, the pallymonk can just take off their armor and be twice as effective against it as the barbarian.

2) otherwise it works just as well on the barbarian

3) Even empowered enervations aren't going to drop a character all that quickly. In a duel enervation is obscenely good. Against a group its less thant optimal because for every action you take to enervate someone, the party gets 4+ actions to do something to you. Also, doing the same trick round after round is going to get you pummeled by a smart party.

If you're blind, you're not hitting people. If you're not hitting people, how do you stop enemies from going past you, killing the person you were protecting, and laughing?

You get by with a little help from your freinds.

You still occupy your square while blind, so your meatshield duties are still being fullfilled, just not your beatstick ones.

You hold your action to swing until a designated party member yells "now" and then you swing.

I'm just listing will save spells that aren't enchantments.

and its longer than the list of ones that are? It furthers my original point that a sprinkle of monk and paladin synergize well together

Slow prevents people from moving and attacking, and kills full attacks. This is pretty significant. You are either unfamiliar with the spell or downplaying its power.

I'm doing neither. I'd like you to consider the possibility of a genuine disagrement rather than dishonesty or ignorance every time we disagree on something.

it does NOT prevent moving and attacking. You can still partial charge. In my experience full attacks are overrated because they rarely actually happen. As a meatshield most of the job becomes standing still so the wizard can do all the work.

My barbarians always took the opposite approach by running into over and passed the mooks to harrass the opposing wizard.

Interestingly enough, you treat Charm Person as something much more powerful than it actually is.

Use a heightened dominate if you want, but asking the barbarian to "hold the wizard down for a minute while i work this out with your other friends" is a very reasonable use of charm person.

They infact did not.

Then they know to scry on you because.....?

No save vs enchantments until they are cast on you.

Ok, the point of halu****ary terrain is to gain a combat advantage of surprise over your foes. You're not going to avoid that happening with the will save.

And charm person kills people outright, does it?

They're out of the fight for your side until its dispelled.

Pretty sure I had seperate numbers for static will save, will save when raging, and will save vs enchantment.

and i'm pretty sure i included the barbarians +4 and the monks +2 equally, but it was only the monks inclussion that you objected to.

Why is that?

Because statistically the chances of making the first save are less than 50%, the chances of making both are less than 25%, the chances of making 3 are less than 12.5%

Except, at that level people have access to Empowered Enervation.

What is it with you and enervation?

Even firing off empowered enervations you have a 1 in 16 chances of killing a 12th level adventurer in 2 hits and near as i can figure a 50 50 shot at killing them in 3.

A badguy's goal in a fight is to WIN against the party so he can continue with whatever vile scheme it was he had before the party showed up, not to kill one member of it. You're still stuck in the gladatorial style optimization contest.

I note you're not disputing the actual point

I was. Let me connect the dots. We're comparing abilities here. You claimed that your build gave a number of abilities to deal with the drawbacks of low reflex saves. It did not. That ability came from a toy, NOT your build. Everything after the 2 sorcerer levels was unnecesary to, at higher levels when you can afford it, use a wand to teleport out. hell, ANY high level build can do that through the use of use magic device.

Mellisan

2010-06-08, 10:23 AM

Personally, I'd like to see V branch into Archmage for a prestige class. It would fit the character, and with her predilection for using counterspell actions against spellcasting opponents, the Mastery of Counterspelling arcana would be a great choice.

Though not as great against Xykon since he's immune to most of his commonly used spells.

hamishspence

2010-06-08, 10:26 AM

Mastery of elements- allows V to substitute something that Xykon isn't heavily resistant to.

Sonicballs, Cones of Acid, and so on.

As a lich, Xykon is immune to cold and electricity, and here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html

he says he has a magic item granting immunity to fire.

That pretty much leaves Sonic, Acid, and non-energy spells. And given that V's banned Conjuration, there aren't very many ways V can do high physical damage.

Kish

2010-06-08, 10:34 AM

Very much so.
Okay, I'll bite. What does Craft: Poetry have to do with power?

Mellisan

2010-06-08, 10:40 AM

Mastery of elements- allows V to substitute something that Xykon isn't heavily resistant to.

Sonicballs, Cones of Acid, and so on.

That would definitely be very handy as well. It adds a lot of flexibility for an evoker. The Spell Power arcana for SR checks could also be good. (though V really needs to get some kind of Assay Spell Resistance variant in her spellbook).

I was just referring to the Spell Turning of the counterspelling arcana. I don't think you can apply the element change to that since you aren't the one casting the spell, and Xykon is immune to the lightning, fire, and negative energy spells he tends to cast (not to mention a lot of them aren't legal targets for spell turning anyway).

hamishspence

2010-06-08, 10:45 AM

I thought for a moment you'd meant V when you said Xykon is immune to most of his commonly used spells- hence bringing up Mastery of Elements.

Since V casts Fireball, Cone of Cold, and Chain Lightning.

Now that I've checked- it is clearer that you meant Xykon.

Prodan

2010-06-08, 11:05 AM

Right, but the paladin monk's go up twice as fast.

Yes. Does give the Barbarian a substantial save boost though.

You stand in the narrowest part of the room and keep things from going over around or through you as best they can.
That assumes a room with a narrow bit to begin with; not a consistant feature in "most" campaigns.

But not just due to peer pressure.

I didn't do whatever you were complaining about earlier due to peer pressure either.

Right, which CAN turn into a fighter, but its still not as good as the real thing.
Debatable: It very well might be depending on how the real thing is built and what forms are available. I've seen some really bad fighters and some really good forms for polymorph.

So the question is, if you need a pickup truck, how good of a pickup truck does it turn into? I don't think the wizard turns into a very good fighter. There is a good case for the druid doing that though.
In Core, the fighter has feats that the polymorphed wizard doesn't. Unfortunately, most core feats suck, and polymorph allows access to some really crazy forms so...

Right. Your wizard became a loremaster or archmage. If you have 10 levels of wizard and 10 of Loremaster, you ARE a Loremaster. *opens fortune cookie* If you are everything, then you are nothing.
So how does taking a non core prestige class make you nothing? Or two, or three? Is there some magic number that makes you nothing when you reach that many prestige classes? What if the prestige classes are thematically linked, like a Paladin/Sorcerer taking levels in Spellsword, then Abjurant Champion, then Sacred Exorcist? Or a Wizard/Master Specialist/Incantatrix/Archmage?

Being everything, or nothing, depends on the player and how he roleplays things, not on the amount of classes in the mix. There are single class characters that are "nothing" and multiclass characters that are "everything". Your false dichotomy avails you not.

What is a Wizard 5 incantrix 1 initiate of the seven fold veil 3, Dragonslayer 1, Travelers guild 1 ?
A waste of time. Dipping in the most powerful clases (of which Dragonslayer and the other one are not) doesn't net you as much as a committment.

Blekar is a ranger with a sprinkle of barbarian. He is a ranger

Thog took 2 levels of fighter cheese. He IS a barbarian.

Girard is apparently an illusionist (do we know if he's a sorcerer or wizard?) with 2 levels of ranger.. he IS an illusionist, he dables at rangering.

Nale is a bard via Albaquerque.

Elan thought of adding A level of wizard. It wouldn't change him from BEING a bard.

Neither of which would stop her from being a rogue

So... how would, say, a Paladin/Sorcerer multiclass stop being a Paladin, or Sorcerer?

you're still in the optimizer gladatorial arena mindset. Reducing YOU to uselessness over 4 rounds does not render your PARTY useless.
Certainly helps if your part in the party was important.

A charm person takes the charmee, effectively, out of the fight.
Not necessarily. If your best friend started attacking your other best friend, you'd probably try to do somthing about it.

1) if anything, the pallymonk can just take off their armor and be twice as effective against it as the barbarian.
Not unless he has Dex and Wis off the wazoo, he won't be.

3) Even empowered enervations aren't going to drop a character all that quickly. In a duel enervation is obscenely good. Against a group its less thant optimal because for every action you take to enervate someone, the party gets 4+ actions to do something to you. Also, doing the same trick round after round is going to get you pummeled by a smart party.
This highly depends on the other tactics in the battle. You can divide up a party, for instance.

You get by with a little help from your freinds.

You still occupy your square while blind, so your meatshield duties are still being fullfilled, just not your beatstick ones.
Unless you are blocking a 5x5 wide/tall corridor, you aren't doing much. And that's a pretty narrow set of circumstances.

You hold your action to swing until a designated party member yells "now" and then you swing.
Ok, while your party members can tell you which direction to swing at, you do suffer a 50% miss chance. And I'm not sure, but I don't believe you can act when other people provoke AoOs.

and its longer than the list of ones that are?
Don't have time to compile an extensive list, but there's enough non-enchantment will save targeting spells that you can't just assume a bonus to enchantment counts as a flat bonus to your will save. Because it isn't.

It furthers my original point that a sprinkle of monk and paladin synergize well together
Good saving throws, yes, but how that makes it the best class for melee in core is beyond me.

I'm doing neither. I'd like you to consider the possibility of a genuine disagrement rather than dishonesty or ignorance every time we disagree on something.
From the same person that accused me of cherrypicking levels and other dishonesty?

Fair enough. Let's start over.

it does NOT prevent moving and attacking. You can still partial charge. My mistake. Still, rather crippling, since your speed is reduced.

In my experience full attacks are overrated because they rarely actually happen. As a meatshield most of the job becomes standing still so the wizard can do all the work.
If you're standing still... you get full attacks.

My barbarians always took the opposite approach by running into over and passed the mooks to harrass the opposing wizard.
"Additionally, it takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for decreased speed. "

Use a heightened dominate if you want, but asking the barbarian to "hold the wizard down for a minute while i work this out with your other friends" is a very reasonable use of charm person.

Except the "working out" part will involve some sort of attack.

Then they know to scry on you because.....?
Possibly something in the plot.

Ok, the point of halu****ary terrain is to gain a combat advantage of surprise over your foes. You're not going to avoid that happening with the will save.
How do you figure? If the party walks into a halucinatory terrain and they make their will saves, it would at least clue them in that something is up.

They're out of the fight for your side until its dispelled.
Or Protection from Evil'd. But

and i'm pretty sure i included the barbarians +4 and the monks +2 equally, but it was only the monks inclussion that you objected to.
You included it as part of the static will save, which it was not since it only applied to enchantments.

What is it with you and enervation?
What's with you and Charm Person?

Even firing off empowered enervations you have a 1 in 16 chances of killing a 12th level adventurer in 2 hits and near as i can figure a 50 50 shot at killing them in 3.
Even if you don't kill them, the effects are pretty bad.

A badguy's goal in a fight is to WIN against the party so he can continue with whatever vile scheme it was he had before the party showed up, not to kill one member of it. You're still stuck in the gladatorial style optimization contest.

And how do you win against the party? You either attack them all at the same time, or deconstruct the group individually. Either is a valid approach.

I was. Let me connect the dots. We're comparing abilities here. You claimed that your build gave a number of abilities to deal with the drawbacks of low reflex saves. It did not. That ability came from a toy, NOT your build.
The ability to use said toy comes from... the build.

Everything after the 2 sorcerer levels was unnecesary to, at higher levels when you can afford it, use a wand to teleport out.
I'm a little confused. A Dragon Disciple build, which would need the wand, wouldn't have more than 2 sorcerer levels. An Eldritch Knight build wouldn't need the wand.

hell, ANY high level build can do that through the use of use magic device.
Heh. You reminded me of someone with that statement.

Deme

2010-06-08, 11:49 AM

This is getting a little off-topic, yes? This isn't about whether a Monk/Paladin is a good build -- it's about how OotS uses (or, does not use) the idea of character optimization.

From the perspective of the Tier system, OotS seems to say "forget about that." The characters and story feel no need to do what the tier system is designed to describe -- how good can you be at everything?

In that sense, OotS doesn't care about conventional optimization, preffering instead to rely on "story" optimization, on the hypothetical DM and the PCs working to create a story in which the characters' failings are used for drama/comedy as needed, and their strengths are useful. Would it fly on the internet, in an arena duel or an optimization challenge? No. Could it do tomb of horrors? Probably not. But it's the right party for this story, because this is the right story for this party. And it's true that this is largely possible because there are no players or characters, but I've DMed people who don't care about optimizing, who would never play a wizard but would always be a blaster sorcerer -- and that's the goal I always shot for.

...Also, optimizing is good for jokes, because things that are complicated always make for good comedy.

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-08, 12:23 PM

That assumes a room with a narrow bit to begin with; not a consistant feature in "most" campaigns.

You can at least make the bad guys take time to walk around you. Or back the wizard in a corner and stand right in front of him so all avenues of approach go through the meatshield.

I didn't do whatever you were complaining about earlier due to peer pressure either.

I'm wondering why on earth you're still preping a charcter for gladatorial combat rather than to function in the party.

Debatable: It very well might be depending on how the real thing is built and what forms are available. I've seen some really bad fighters and some really good forms for polymorph.

How many of those forms are core though?

In Core, the fighter has feats that the polymorphed wizard doesn't. Unfortunately, most core feats suck, and polymorph allows access to some really crazy forms so...

The problems with that being the lack of gear that go with you to most forms... and figuring out which versioni of polymorph was the new one this week...

So how does taking a non core prestige class make you nothing? Or two, or three? Is there some magic number that makes you nothing when you reach that many prestige classes?

No, number cruncher. Its a gray area down the well to depravity, sort of like the line between a good idea and absolute cheese.

What if the prestige classes are thematically linked, like a Paladin/Sorcerer taking levels in Spellsword, then Abjurant Champion, then Sacred Exorcist? Or a Wizard/Master Specialist/Incantatrix/Archmage?

Your running theme is... good at being a wizard?

Being everything, or nothing, depends on the player and how he roleplays things, not on the amount of classes in the mix. There are single class characters that are "nothing" and multiclass characters that are "everything". Your false dichotomy avails you not.

Its not a false dichotomy in oots. your class is part of who and what you are.

A waste of time. Dipping in the most powerful clases (of which Dragonslayer and the other one are not) doesn't net you as much as a committment.

Dragonslayer for a level is d10 hp, +1 bab, and full spellcasting. It was on most cheeser builds unless it got replaced by something else in the last few months of 3.5.

So... how would, say, a Paladin/Sorcerer multiclass stop being a Paladin, or Sorcerer?

A paladin sorcerer would not. A paladin sorcerer dragon disciple eldritch knight would. Its like crayons, how many can you mix before you wind up with a color called Gunk?

Certainly helps if your part in the party was important.

IS important.

Not necessarily. If your best friend started attacking your other best friend, you'd probably try to do somthing about it.

well, irl get between them , not sure what to do when targeted spells can ignore that.

Not unless he has Dex and Wis off the wazoo, he won't be.

That WAS the premis of when making a paladin monk would be a good idea, was it not?

This highly depends on the other tactics in the battle. You can divide up a party, for instance.

Don't split the party.

Tactically its a good idea. But if they stay split up for 6 rounds they're doing something wrong. (mind you, i HAVE seen parties go very, very wrong)

Unless you are blocking a 5x5 wide/tall corridor, you aren't doing much. And that's a pretty narrow set of circumstances.

Bud ump Bump.

Ok, while your party members can tell you which direction to swing at, you do suffer a 50% miss chance. And I'm not sure, but I don't believe you can act when other people provoke AoOs.

No, which is why i suggested using a held action.
I had a DM that LOVED blindness, invisibility, darkness, and other complicating factors in combat. They can be dealt with if you're thinking tactically, like getting folks against a wall, caltrops, grappling, flour, cottage cheeese, and creative use of familiars.

Don't have time to compile an extensive list, but there's enough non-enchantment will save targeting spells that you can't just assume a bonus to enchantment counts as a flat bonus to your will save. Because it isn't.

It was an easier comparison to make and worked in the barbarians favor. Most will saves i've seen have been enchantment ones.. and all of the ones that really screwed over the party were enchantment.

Good saving throws, yes, but how that makes it the best class for melee in core is beyond me.

No class is the best at everything. My point is that a touch of monk synergizes very well with a paladin and does make a very effective warrior. A meatshields ability to perform their roll in the party is more often limited by their spell save than their hp or damage capacity.

From the same person that accused me of cherrypicking levels and other dishonesty?

Not for having an opinion different than mine.

If you're standing still... you get full attacks.

Only if the person is standing next to you when you're standing still, otherwise you get 5 attacks at the air next to you.

"Additionally, it takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for decreased speed. "

-1 isn't that bad. Half movement isnt usually that bad (unless the dm is evil and has a fight in a dwarven smelting factory or something....) iinstead of full move and attack you partial charge for a full move and attack.

Except the "working out" part will involve some sort of attack.

Hamster ball the cleric, polymorph the rogue into something thing cute and cuddly (He'll be fine really.. we'll dispel it later.. and until then you can call him george) while having the barbarian sit on the wizard. Then polymorph the wizard, then tell the barbarian you'd like to cast a spell on him, please lower your defenses... and proceed to the TPK. Mind you, something SHOULD go wrong with that plan , but the plan or something like it SHOULD be there.

Spending 3-4 rounds taking down one character doesn't sound like a good plan against a party of 4 to me.

How do you figure? If the party walks into a halucinatory terrain and they make their will saves, it would at least clue them in that something is up.

I don't know if i'd consider just walking into it, or mor likely next to it, interacting with it.

Or Protection from Evil'd. But

That ones always been a bit fuzzy for me on charm person.

What's with you and Charm Person?

As both a player and a DM its caused a lot of.. interesting fights.

Even if you don't kill them, the effects are pretty bad.

The first attack in a warriors routine is almost guaranteed to hit anyway, since about half of it comes from level. The other +'s from strength, weapon focus, the magic weapon usually remain enough to hit a wizard or a mook on the first hit.

And how do you win against the party? You either attack them all at the same time, or deconstruct the group individually. Either is a valid approach.

But an enervation to the face takes too long if you're going to do it individually.

I'm a little confused. A Dragon Disciple build, which would need the wand, wouldn't have more than 2 sorcerer levels. An Eldritch Knight build wouldn't need the wand.

The eldritch knight build you gave WOULD need the want until level 17.. which as i said is a LONG time to wait.

Heh. You reminded me of someone with that statement.

good someone or a bad someone?

Prodan

2010-06-08, 12:55 PM

You can at least make the bad guys take time to walk around you. Or back the wizard in a corner and stand right in front of him so all avenues of approach go through the meatshield.
Walking around/past someone doesn't cost much movement.

How many of those forms are core though?
Quite a few (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872134/The_Complete_Polymorph_Thread_3.5)

The problems with that being the lack of gear that go with you to most forms... and figuring out which versioni of polymorph was the new one this week...
This can be planned around, no?

Your running theme is... good at being a wizard?
Metamagic.

Its not a false dichotomy in oots. your class is part of who and what you are.
Samurai.

Dragonslayer for a level is d10 hp, +1 bab, and full spellcasting. It was on most cheeser builds unless it got replaced by something else in the last few months of 3.5.
Heh. That all? You spend two feats on Dodge and Iron Will, plus 4 skill points cross class into Tumble and you gain immunity to fear, +1 BaB, +2 Fort and Will, +1 caster level and +1 extra damage against dragons.

It's ok for gish builds, but if we're talking about cheesing something up, a Wizard5/Incantatrix5 is going to be much more powerful than your dipping build.

In 3.5, supreme ultimate power doesn't come from dips, it comes from a healthy number of levels in full casting advancement classes with broken class features. Examples: Incantatrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Taint Scholar, Beholder Mage, Dewometerkeeper, Planar Shepard, Shadowcraft Mage,... they're not bad dips, but their true power comes later in the class. And those are the most powerful prestige classes printed in 3.5e.

A paladin sorcerer would not. A paladin sorcerer dragon disciple eldritch knight would. Its like crayons, how many can you mix before you wind up with a color called Gunk?
Don't believe anyone advocated combining DD and EK. They are both geared for different kinds of characters.

IS important.
I note the actual points remains undisputed.

well, irl get between them , not sure what to do when targeted spells can ignore that.

Nonlethal damage, sunder spell component pouch, or grapple are other options.

That WAS the premis of when making a paladin monk would be a good idea, was it not?
Thought the premise was making saves. In any case, the paladin monk would need a score of higher than 20 in Wis and Dex to counter True Strike.

Don't split the party.
If you're the enemy, that's a great tactic to use.

Tactically its a good idea. But if they stay split up for 6 rounds they're doing something wrong. (mind you, i HAVE seen parties go very, very wrong)
Well, some characters can do more about it than others. Ie, Paladin/Monk can't do much vs a Wall of Force, so he's on his own while the other party members are forced to engage the enemy without him.

It was an easier comparison to make and worked in the barbarians favor. Most will saves i've seen have been enchantment ones.. and all of the ones that really screwed over the party were enchantment.

Silent Image Sleet Storm. Make will saves or see white. This is bad.

Fear would be bad for a party too, as would be Slow, Symbols, and etc. This sort of thing isn't limited to enchantment, which is why I'm making the point.

No class is the best at everything. My point is that a touch of monk synergizes very well with a paladin and does make a very effective warrior.
You're not fighting so much as acting as a human barrier, though. Warriors fight. You're more of a bodyguard.

A meatshields ability to perform their roll in the party is more often limited by their spell save than their hp or damage capacity.
Depends on the DM, really.

Only if the person is standing next to you when you're standing still, otherwise you get 5 attacks at the air next to you.

Reach weapons are your friend.

-1 isn't that bad. Half movement isnt usually that bad (unless the dm is evil and has a fight in a dwarven smelting factory or something....) iinstead of full move and attack you partial charge for a full move and attack.
Most melee characters have a movement speed of 20 ft in full armor, 30 ft without, and 40 ft as a barbarian. Halving that can get pretty bad.

Hamster ball the cleric
You mean, the guy who can dispel magic?

polymorph the rogue into something thing cute and cuddly (He'll be fine really.. we'll dispel it later.. and until then you can call him george) while having the barbarian sit on the wizard. Then polymorph the wizard, then tell the barbarian you'd like to cast a spell on him, please lower your defenses... and proceed to the TPK. Mind you, something SHOULD go wrong with that plan , but the plan or something like it SHOULD be there.
The first objection is that all the spells that have been cast are used in the offensive capacity. This is something that will likely be noticed.

I don't know if i'd consider just walking into it, or mor likely next to it, interacting with it.
Walking into an illusion is definitely interacting with it.

That ones always been a bit fuzzy for me on charm person.
There's a decent argument to be made that it does work that way.

The first attack in a warriors routine is almost guaranteed to hit anyway, since about half of it comes from level. The other +'s from strength, weapon focus, the magic weapon usually remain enough to hit a wizard or a mook on the first hit.
Enervation has more effects than just a penalty to hit.

But an enervation to the face takes too long if you're going to do it individually.

Spending two rounds crippling someone with enervation seems fine to me.

The eldritch knight build you gave WOULD need the want until level 17.. which as i said is a LONG time to wait.
I see what you mean. Let me clarify: While that build would need to wait until lvel 17, other builds involving Sorcerer, Paladin, and Eldritch Knight would not. If you want Paladin2/Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight3, you'd have Dimension Door at level 11, for instance.

good someone or a bad someone?
No offense, but it's Sir Giacomo.

Jaysyn

2010-06-08, 05:28 PM

1. Miko Miyazaki - Monk/Paladin. Both the Monk and the Paladin are tier 5 classes that are not compatible with each other.

...

What do you think?

I think I don't need to read any farther then your first question. :smallconfused:

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-08, 09:09 PM

Walking around/past someone doesn't cost much movement.

enough to get the whack of opportunity if you do it right.

Quite a few (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872134/The_Complete_Polymorph_Thread_3.5)

Some of the numbers there look a little screwy. The adult red dragon's bite for example, seems to assume that you get the new forms bab, which you dont.

This can be planned around, no?

Depends. Polymorph doesn';t last hours in 3.5 So you need to know the fight is comming in advance, and have enough time to swap all of your gear.

Metamagic.

Some DM's might allow prestige class hopping. The one running the ootsverse seems to discourage it.

Samurai.

You think in binary don't you?

Being a PART of who and what you are does not mean it is the sum total of who and what you are.

Heh. That all? You spend two feats on Dodge and Iron Will, plus 4 skill points cross class into Tumble and you gain immunity to fear, +1 BaB, +2 Fort and Will, +1 caster level and +1 extra damage against dragons.

It's ok for gish builds, but if we're talking about cheesing something up, a Wizard5/Incantatrix5 is going to be much more powerful than your dipping build.

Well the incantrix author was either on meth or being bribed by someone who thought wizards weren't powerful enough.

In 3.5, supreme ultimate power doesn't come from dips, it comes from a healthy number of levels in full casting advancement classes with broken class features. Examples: Incantatrix, Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Taint Scholar, Beholder Mage, Dewometerkeeper, Planar Shepard, Shadowcraft Mage,... they're not bad dips, but their true power comes later in the class. And those are the most powerful prestige classes printed in 3.5e.

I don't own all the splat books. When i was on the wizards forums the dragonslayer showed up a LOT on cheese builds.

Don't believe anyone advocated combining DD and EK. They are both geared for different kinds of characters.

People who want to cast spells and bash things.. sounds right up boths ally.
And i beleive that you did. I have the build you proposed for it worked out on paper, trying to figure out when it would cast 4th levels spells.

If we abide by your restriction, it'd be a Paladin3/Sorcerer2/Dragon Disciple5/Eldritch Knight10, which would be... interesting. Buy a ring of Evasion and you're good to go for melee.

I note the actual points remains undisputed.

Because there is no point. If you get hurt protecting the rest of the party and keel over as they kill the bad guy thats mission accomplished for you. As a tank thats your job.

Nonlethal damage, sunder spell component pouch, or grapple are other options.

How effective sundering a spell component pouch is is up to the dm. Grapple is nasty, but monking is a good way to go for that.

Thought the premise was making saves. In any case, the paladin monk would need a score of higher than 20 in Wis and Dex to counter True Strike.

You're going to run out of spells FAST going through quickened truestrikes and empowered enervations.

Well, some characters can do more about it than others. Ie, Paladin/Monk can't do much vs a Wall of Force, so he's on his own while the other party members are forced to engage the enemy without him.

He can wait for the party to deal with it for him. Seriously, do you play with a party or a herd of cats?

Silent Image Sleet Storm. Make will saves or see white. This is bad.

as opposed to the half a dozen ways to make actual fog?

Fear would be bad for a party too, as would be Slow, Symbols, and etc. This sort of thing isn't limited to enchantment, which is why I'm making the point.

Which goes in favor of the pallymonk, since he's immune to the fears.

You're not fighting so much as acting as a human barrier, though. Warriors fight. You're more of a bodyguard.

Haaaaaaaaalelujia he's seen the light.

Thats all a warrior type is good for really if your casters are half competant. If you're going that route, you may as well go for it all the way.

Depends on the DM, really.

What encounter is going to whittle down a warriors hp before their will save?

Reach weapons are your friend.

Yes, but you still tend to run out of people standing next to you in a hurry.

Most melee characters have a movement speed of 20 ft in full armor, 30 ft without, and 40 ft as a barbarian. Halving that can get pretty bad.

Right, but since charging normally lets you double your movement , halving your movement means you can charge 20 and attack instead of walking 20 and attacking.

You mean, the guy who can dispel magic?

If he can get through whats probably a higher level spell than his, sure.

The first objection is that all the spells that have been cast are used in the offensive capacity. This is something that will likely be noticed.

Right, but all non lethal.. the sort of attacks *your friend* might use to subdue your other friends until you can explain *what a great and wonderful person he is*

Walking into an illusion is definitely interacting with it.

In that case i would simply set the illusion off to the side a bit, or not change the ground at all.

There's a decent argument to be made that it does work that way.

Yes there is. But i'm a little leary of resting a comparison of class abilities on decent arguments.

Enervation has more effects than just a penalty to hit.

I know. it was my kobold sorcerer's favorite spell. Its nasty but hardly fool proof.

Spending two rounds crippling someone with enervation seems fine to me.

They're not as crippled as you're making them out to be, and certainly MUCH less crippled than if they were, lets say, dominated.

I see what you mean. Let me clarify: While that build would need to wait until lvel 17, other builds involving Sorcerer, Paladin, and Eldritch Knight would not. If you want Paladin2/Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight3, you'd have Dimension Door at level 11, for instance.

Which is fine, i was just commenting on the build i was given.

No offense, but it's Sir Giacomo.

Haven't met him.

I am not a hard core optimizer. I dont say that if you're not a full caster you're wasting your time and can't ever be inthe game, you're dragging the party down etc. But I do like to take it into consideration when designing characters. I don't have to embrace the reality that in 3.5 non spellcasters are rather hosed, but i am forced to acknowledge its reality.

Prodan

2010-06-08, 09:37 PM

Quite a few (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872134/The_Complete_Polymorph_Thread_3.5)

Some of the numbers there look a little screwy. The adult red dragon's bite for example, seems to assume that you get the new forms bab, which you dont.
Even so, if you turn into, say, a Hydra at level 8, you attack with a +8 bonus and have... 8 attacks. Even after moving. And fast healing 13.

Some DM's might allow prestige class hopping. The one running the ootsverse seems to discourage it.
We don't know anyone's actual build, so that depends.

That evil necrophile chick is a multiclass character who prestige classed, though.

You think in binary don't you?
0101000101110101

Being a PART of who and what you are does not mean it is the sum total of who and what you are.
I think I said that in response to your insistence that the character's class defined everything about them.

Well the incantrix author was either on meth or being bribed by someone who thought wizards weren't powerful enough.
In any case, your dipping build was most certainly not an optimized build powerful because of prestige dipping.

I don't own all the splat books. When i was on the wizards forums the dragonslayer showed up a LOT on cheese builds.
It's good filler. Doesn't give much by itself. It's better than another level in Wizard, but that's it.

Well, the prerequisites suck so... hm. That's actually debatable. I can see it as a good dip for Gish builds if there's nothing else to do, but that's about it.

People who want to cast spells and bash things.. sounds right up boths ally.
Dragon Disciple is for melee characters who don't care about spellcasting progression. Eldritch Knight is for people who want some spellcasting along with their BAB.

And i beleive that you did.
Yeah, mostly as just an example of a core Paladin/Sorcerer. Another way to do it, with more emphasis on spellcasting, is Paladin2/Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight10, and finishing up with Dragon Disciple or two more levels of Sorcerer.

Because there is no point. If you get hurt protecting the rest of the party and keel over as they kill the bad guy thats mission accomplished for you. As a tank thats your job.
Here's the issue I have with your tanking; the enemy doesn't need to hurt you if they want to screw over the party.

You're going to run out of spells FAST going through quickened truestrikes and empowered enervations.
I'd be more distressed if Scribe Scroll wasn't a class feature.

He can wait for the party to deal with it for him.
How does the party get by without this all important meat shield?

Seriously, do you play with a party or a herd of cats?
I prefer that each member of a party be able to hold his own individually as well as in a group.

as opposed to the half a dozen ways to make actual fog?

At lower levels, you have Obscuring Mist (personal space only, not as concealing) and Fog Cloud (not as concealing).

Which goes in favor of the pallymonk, since he's immune to the fears.

The point is that there are potent non-enchantment will save spells out there that you really don't want to fall victim to. Again, Slow, since you apparently want something that is not Fear.

Haaaaaaaaalelujia he's seen the light.

Thats all a warrior type is good for really if your casters are half competant. If you're going that route, you may as well go for it all the way.
That's all a warrior's good for, really? Isn't there also murdering monsters and other people in combat?

What encounter is going to whittle down a warriors hp before their will save?
Hydras.

Right, but since charging normally lets you double your movement , halving your movement means you can charge 20 and attack instead of walking 20 and attacking.
" If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. "
I see this as supporting my point of view.

Right, but all non lethal.. the sort of attacks *your friend* might use to subdue your other friends until you can explain *what a great and wonderful person he is*
"You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell."
Winning a charisma check takes a standard action. To get him to ignore his friends and incapacitate one of them is going to require you to make several checks, which are a standard action apiece, I believe.

In that case i would simply set the illusion off to the side a bit, or not change the ground at all.
To the side of what?

They're not as crippled as you're making them out to be, and certainly MUCH less crippled than if they were, lets say, dominated.

On the subject of Dominated,
"Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus."

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-08, 10:08 PM

Even so, if you turn into, say, a Hydra at level 8, you attack with a +8 bonus and have... 8 attacks. Even after moving. And fast healing 13.

You're still stuck with your wizard hit points and the hydra's low armor class. Its a GREAT offensive move but your defense is going to be in the john.

That evil necrophile chick is a multiclass character who prestige classed, though.

She has A prestige class that requires that she multiclasses. She IS a mystic theurge. A mysthic theurge is a combination preist and wizard.

0101000101110101
I think I said that in response to your insistence that the character's class defined everything about them.

That would be a strawman, because i didn't insist that. I beleive i even capitalized part more than once.

In any case, your dipping build was most certainly not an optimized build powerful because of prestige dipping.

I didn't give a dipping build. I was ragging on the practice of dipping in general and how it dilutes a large part of a characters identity.

Well, the prerequisites suck so... hm. That's actually debatable. I can see it as a good dip for Gish builds if there's nothing else to do, but that's about it.

Better than eldritch knight and its d6 hp. Iron will isn't horrible and i always try to get my wizards tumble (because many monsters have reach)

Dragon Disciple is for melee characters who don't care about spellcasting progression. Eldritch Knight is for people who want some spellcasting along with their BAB.

Right, but DD lets you take damage (natural armor and e12 hp) eldrich knight does not.

Yeah, mostly as just an example of a core Paladin/Sorcerer. Another way to do it, with more emphasis on spellcasting, is Paladin2/Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight10, and finishing up with Dragon Disciple or two more levels of Sorcerer.

Right, but that would be a horrible tank since you have a LOT of d 4s and d 6's in the HPS of that build. I'm not saying the build is BAD, i'm saying it would make a bad tank.

Here's the issue I have with your tanking; the enemy doesn't need to hurt you if they want to screw over the party.

Depends on how it plays out on the mat. But i don't see the barbarian being all that useful.

I'd be more distressed if Scribe Scroll wasn't a class feature.

Having an npc wizard burn through 7 expensive scrolls in a fight is a dm cheese factory.

How does the party get by without this all important meat shield?

Sub in the cleric for a round. Its not like casting is actually interuptable in 3.5.

I prefer that each member of a party be able to hold his own individually as well as in a group.

So no bards then?

At lower levels, you have Obscuring Mist (personal space only) and Fog Cloud (not as concealing).

And stinking cloud

Obscuring mist is centered on you, but its not limited to your square

Effect: Cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius from you, 20 ft. high

That's all a warrior's good for, really? Isn't there also murdering monsters and other people in combat?

Really? No.

" If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn. "

and being slowed does that.

"You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell."

Who wouldn't ordinarily break up a fight between two friends with a little harmless wrasslin? Its not a stretch. Its the effect of magic that makes someone your trusted friend and makes you perceive everthing they do in the best light possible. If holding off the rampaging red dragon for a round or two is reasonable, then so is holding down your friend with subdual damage while your other friend subdues without hurting your other friends.

On the subject of Dominated,
"Subjects resist this control, and any subject forced to take actions against its nature receives a new saving throw with a +2 bonus."[/QUOTE]

Tell him to compose poetry then. He's out of the fight in one shot which is, quite frankly, all the time that a spellcaster has when dealing with an adventuring party.

So your whole objection to saying that a pallymonk can survive spells is that there is one combination of spells that could potentially take him out? Isn't that more than a LITTLE pendantic for the internet? It obviously has a higher saving throw than your barbarian or any other build you've offered, plus immunity to some spells and resistance to others. With almost all d10 hp and heavy armor its a build set to be a very formidable tank.. IF you have the stats to pull it off its quite good compared to most of the options that appear to be available in ootsverse.

Prodan

2010-06-09, 06:52 AM

You're still stuck with your wizard hit points and the hydra's low armor class. Its a GREAT offensive move but your defense is going to be in the john.
Hydra, at level 8, has fast healing 17 (made a mistake earlier) which helps make up for the lack in HP and +1 AC from Dex, and +8 NA on top of +4 from the wizard's Mage Armor. This results in an AC of 23. What's the typical fighter AC, +9 from enchanted Full Plate and +3 from an enchanted shield for an AC of 22?

She has A prestige class that requires that she multiclasses. She IS a mystic theurge. A mysthic theurge is a combination preist and wizard.
What you are saying is that dipping and prestige classing is OK as long as it fulfills a concept, which is kinda the point of what I've been trying to say.

That would be a strawman, because i didn't insist that. I beleive i even capitalized part more than once.
Stop misusing the term strawman. That's for people who deliberately misinterpret a position. Interpreting something incorrectly is different.

I didn't give a dipping build. I was ragging on the practice of dipping in general and how it dilutes a large part of a characters identity.

That is not inherently due to dipping. You can certainly have a character with many base/prestige classes that has strong identity as well.

Better than eldritch knight and its d6 hp. Iron will isn't horrible and i always try to get my wizards tumble (because many monsters have reach)

And Dodge?

Right, but DD lets you take damage (natural armor and e12 hp) eldrich knight does not.
Eldritch Knight lets you cast spells and DD does not. Like Polymorph. Which you can use to turn into something with lots of natural armor and fast healing or regeneration.

Having an npc wizard burn through 7 expensive scrolls in a fight is a dm cheese factory.
A wizard making use of his class features to make scrolls that he can cast normally is now cheese? What's next, Fighters using Power Attack?

Also, wouldn't Empowered enervation only take about 4 shots on average to down a level 13 character?

So no bards then?
It's not about classes; it's more about builds. And bards are medium powered and versatile in any case

Obscuring mist is centered on you, but its not limited to your square

Effect: Cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius from you, 20 ft. high
Never said it was. I said it had to take place in your immediate area.

Really? No.
Dealing damage to enemies has never been a problem for well built melee characters; its the lack of other options. So I disagree.

and being slowed does that.
Yes, being slowed means that you cannot partial charge at x2 movement, while reducing your normal movement to 1/2.

Who wouldn't ordinarily break up a fight between two friends with a little harmless wrasslin?
I wouldn't.

Its not a stretch.
That is to be determined by the player, not you.

You still haven't addressed the part where you have to win about 2 charisma checks to prevent the barbarian from interfering with you attacking his allies, and to help you subdue his allies.

Tell him to compose poetry then. He's out of the fight in one shot which is, quite frankly, all the time that a spellcaster has when dealing with an adventuring party.
Don't you spend two rounds on average getting him dominated like that?

So your whole objection to saying that a pallymonk can survive spells is that there is one combination of spells that could potentially take him out?
I'm pointing out that he's not god's gift against spellcasters. And there's more than one combination of spells that can do it; that's just an example I chose to use.

It obviously has a higher saving throw than your barbarian or any other build you've offered, plus immunity to some spells and resistance to others. With almost all d10 hp and heavy armor its a build set to be a very formidable tank.. IF you have the stats to pull it off its quite good compared to most of the options that appear to be available in ootsverse.
In WoW, a tank is useful because he draws aggro. In DnD, the pallymonk can't do that. He cannot stop enemies from bypassing him and attacking who he's tanking for unless the fight happens to occur in a narrow space, against enemies without Bull Rush or Tumble.

Makes for a poor tank in my book.

Manga Shoggoth

2010-06-09, 07:24 AM

Okay, I'll bite. What does Craft: Poetry have to do with power?

The pen is mightier than the sword?

(...and although it may have little to do with power, it may have a great deal to do with making those nice little bits they add to their names when introducing themselves)

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-09, 02:38 PM

Hydra, at level 8, has fast healing 17 (made a mistake earlier) which helps make up for the lack in HP and +1 AC from Dex, and +8 NA on top of +4 from the wizard's Mage Armor. This results in an AC of 23. What's the typical fighter AC, +9 from enchanted Full Plate and +3 from an enchanted shield for an AC of 22?

I don't think you get fast healing when you polymorph.

You usually gain any extraordinary special attacks your assumed form has, but not the assumed form's extraordinary special qualities. That's because most extraordinary special attacks are based off gross physical features (such a big, nasty claws and teeth) while extraordinary special qualities tend to be subtler and largely derived from a creature's essential nature.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a

You loose 1 ac from being large.

and at that level a fighter isn't just going to have full plate +1 and a shield +1. They're going to have an amulet of natural armor and a ring of deflection as well.

[QUOTE]
What you are saying is that dipping and prestige classing is OK as long as it fulfills a concept, which is kinda the point of what I've been trying to say.

I'm not saying that. At. All. She didn't dip prestige classes. She has ONE prestige class.

Stop misusing the term strawman. That's for people who deliberately misinterpret a position. Interpreting something incorrectly is different.

Then why are you missing concepts multiple times when i go through great pains to make the distinction, including capitalizing the key word repeatedly?

That is not inherently due to dipping. You can certainly have a character with many base/prestige classes that has strong identity as well.

They can be a well done person and character like that, but their class will not be a part of it. For some campaigns thats fine. It however seems contradictory to how oots works.

And Dodge?

That one i'll give you.

Eldritch Knight lets you cast spells and DD does not. Like Polymorph. Which you can use to turn into something with lots of natural armor and fast healing or regeneration.

So you're saying that all fighter types are useless?

A wizard making use of his class features to make scrolls that he can cast normally is now cheese? What's next, Fighters using Power Attack?

An NPC who has had his feats and level effectively handed to him by the dm, and is loaded up with powerful, expensive, 1 shot magic items stratespherically beyond what the PC's can afford to blow in a fight yes, is cheese. Enough scrolls to effectively cost someone half a level being blown in one fight should warrant a higher CR.

100101000001001010

Blowing a few scrolls and potions in a fight is fairly normal. Going through the great library of alexandria is Cheese.

Also, wouldn't Empowered enervation only take about 4 shots on average to down a level 13 character?

Sure. But the bbged can't spend 16 rounds to finish off a party.

It's not about classes; it's more about builds.

But if you're looking at the characters individual contribution and not what they add through the group you're overlooking a large part of some classes utility.

Dealing damage to enemies has never been a problem for well built melee characters; its the lack of other options. So I disagree.

Its nigh impossible to compete with casters in that regard, who have large number of "removes all of the enemies hitpoints on failed save" as an option at higher levels.

Yes, being slowed means that you cannot partial charge at x2 movement, while reducing your normal movement to 1/2.

Right, so you charge at 1x movement. I don't see the problem here.

I wouldn't.
That is to be determined by the player, not you.

Actually thats to be determined by the dm, otherwise charmed players would never do anything they've been charmed to do.

You still haven't addressed the part where you have to win about 2 charisma checks to prevent the barbarian from interfering with you attacking his allies, and to help you subdue his allies.

As long as you keep it non lethal its well within the power of charm person.

Don't you spend two rounds on average getting him dominated like that?

Nope, just one.

I'm pointing out that he's not god's gift against spellcasters.

ANd gods gift against spellcasters would be...?

In WoW, a tank is useful because he draws aggro. In DnD, the pallymonk can't do that. He cannot stop enemies from bypassing him and attacking who he's tanking for unless the fight happens to occur in a narrow space, against enemies without Bull Rush or Tumble.

Trip and grapple can be very helpful in that regard, stopping opponents from getting near the wizard.

Nothing gets a spellcaster trying to melt your face like a few grapple checks. But yes, its hard to stop them or an archer from pinging your casters.

SoC175

2010-06-09, 03:20 PM

Why not? Oh, right, because you're assuming that we're doing point buy and high mental stats automatically means low physical ones despite statements to the contrary. Well, if you go with 18s everywhere (or just 16s) almost every class and class-combo becomes powerful.

Yet the 3.x standard assumption are stats equivalent to 25-points point buy (Living Greyhawk was already generous by granting 28-points point buy)

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-09, 03:48 PM

Well, if you go with 18s everywhere (or just 16s) almost every class and class-combo becomes powerful.

The pallymonk gets more of a boost though, since str is used for bashing, dex for ac, con for hp and fort saves, int for.. nothing, wis for pally spells, possibly monk ac, and cha for saves. A wizard is largely wasting the strength, charismia , and wisdom.

Yet the 3.x standard assumption are stats equivalent to 25-points point buy (Living Greyhawk was already generous by granting 28-points point buy)

No. The standard 3.5 assumption is dice rolling. Thats the default mechanism in the PHB. Living greyhawk does point buy to keep everything fair and to keep folks from showing up with all 18's that they "rolled honestly"

Prodan

2010-06-09, 04:54 PM

I don't think you get fast healing when you polymorph.

You usually gain any extraordinary special attacks your assumed form has, but not the assumed form's extraordinary special qualities. That's because most extraordinary special attacks are based off gross physical features (such a big, nasty claws and teeth) while extraordinary special qualities tend to be subtler and largely derived from a creature's essential nature.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a

My mistake.

You loose 1 ac from being large.

and at that level a fighter isn't just going to have full plate +1 and a shield +1. They're going to have an amulet of natural armor and a ring of deflection as well.
They only have an amulet of Natural Armor if they don't have an Amulet of Health, that other thing that melee characters tend to wear around their necks.

And since you pointed out that people don't get fast healing, there's no need to stick with Hydra. An Annis Hag has +10 NA, -1 for size, +1 Dex, for an AC of 24 assuming Mage Armor is on the table. Since it's humanoid, it can wear the wizard's Gloves of Dexterity and Ring of Protection for more AC. (I assume that I am allowed to add on magic items ad hoc as well?)

I'm not saying that. At. All. She didn't dip prestige classes. She has ONE prestige class.
1. As far as we know.
2. And if she had a dip that would would be too much, would it?

Then why are you missing concepts multiple times when i go through great pains to make the distinction, including capitalizing the key word repeatedly?
And you were the one who suggested giving each other the benefit of a doubt.

They can be a well done person and character like that, but their class will not be a part of it. For some campaigns thats fine. It however seems contradictory to how oots works.

We don't know the build of anyone in OotS for certain. You can't really say that.

So you're saying that all fighter types are useless?
Don't accuse me of straw manning if you're going to do something like this.

I never said all fighter types are useless. I said an Eldritch Knight can cast Polymorph. How you extrapolated that to "fighter types are useless" I do not know.

An NPC who has had his feats and level effectively handed to him by the dm, and is loaded up with powerful, expensive, 1 shot magic items stratespherically beyond what the PC's can afford to blow in a fight yes, is cheese. Enough scrolls to effectively cost someone half a level being blown in one fight should warrant a higher CR.

Blowing a few scrolls and potions in a fight is fairly normal. Going through the great library of alexandria is Cheese.

Don't you only need about 4 scrolls of Empowered Enervation to kill one 13th level PC?

Let's see, a 6th level scroll costs 1,650. Four of them cost 6,600. (Crafting yourself is cheaper, but it counts into the enemy's WBL just the same as if he had bought them so accounting is the same). A level 16 enemy should be able to afford this.

Four sets of four cost 26,400. This isn't a lot of money at level 16.

Sure. But the bbged can't spend 16 rounds to finish off a party.

Wasn't suggesting using it against the entire party.

But if you're looking at the characters individual contribution and not what they add through the group you're overlooking a large part of some classes utility. I don't see the Monk/Paladin contributing much through the group.

Its nigh impossible to compete with casters in that regard, who have large number of "removes all of the enemies hitpoints on failed save" as an option at higher levels.

Save Or Die - Not as good as you've been told:

Yes, Save or Die is powerful - however, it is overrated. This is why:

Lots of enemies: You take down one and do little else to help your Big Stupid Fighter and Glass Cannon. You spent a high level spell doing so. Congratulations - you've been demoted from God to Glass Cannon. Ouch!

One Big Enemy: You either do nothing or everything. The Big Stupid Fighter and Glass Cannon are either in lots of trouble or are feeling useless. This is like the chess player who is addicted to using his queen - ends up losing it, and then sucks for the rest of the game. Use your lesser pieces (That's the big stupid fighter and the glass cannon - your peons) to your advantage - let them do the dirty work - your job is to make it easy for them, not to take their place. Try to take their place your spells will run out fast.

By Yourself: Now in this rare circumstance - save or dies are actually quite good. However - avoid this situation like the plague. If there is no Big Stupid Fighter, then YOU are the Big Stupid Fighter, except you aren't Big, and you're not a fighter (but you are stupid if you had any chance to avoid this ugly situation).

Incidentally, both his guide and TLN's advocate supporting the fighter in letting him beat things up, not relegating him to guard duty.

Right, so you charge at 1x movement. I don't see the problem here.
You were claiming you could move at x2 movement on a partial charge earlier, weren't you?

Actually thats to be determined by the dm, otherwise charmed players would never do anything they've been charmed to do.
I will partially agree to this, but only partially. In any case, it's not your call, so don't be so sure how things will turn out.

As long as you keep it non lethal its well within the power of charm person.
And I disagree. A non lethal attack is still an attack. Furthermore, isn't it metagaming for the barbarian to know that it's nonlethal damage?

Nope, just one.
You definitely mentioned something about roughly 50% success rate when casting an enchantment against a barbarian earlier.

ANd gods gift against spellcasters would be...?

For me? Barbarian/Warblade with Mad Foam Rager and Iron! Heart! Surge! if you ask me. (With Iron Heart Surge run as the writers intended, not as written.) Important feats: Steadfast Determination, Mad Foam Rager, Instantaneous Rage, Intimidating Rage, and Imperious Command. Important items: that armor that allows you to intimidate as a move action, plus a Cloak of Charisma.

When the wizard starts his attack, you rage instantly in response, intimidate people, fear lock them, and either pound on them while they're cowering and unable to do anything in response, or let your party do it for you. Use Mad Foam Rager and Iron Heart Surge to either delay or get rid of any negative spells you might find yourself subject to.

Incidentally, the best tank in my book would have 3 levels in Knight for the ability to hinder enemy movement, and a few levels in either Warblade or Crusader for Thicket of Blades, a stance that also hinders movement.

Possibly also with the Goad feat which forces people to attack you if they fail a save.

That's not particularly relevant against combating spellcasters, but I thought I'd highlight the abilities that I personally find useful in tanks: the ability to make yourself an obstacle that must be dealt with first in order to get to someone behind you, and the ability to make others attack you.

Trip and grapple can be very helpful in that regard, stopping opponents from getting near the wizard.
Grapple only works against one person, and is less likely to work if your opponent is larger than you, or is a spellcaster above 10th level. Tripping fails against flying enemies, really large or strong enemies, or enemies with more than two legs/without legs. These tactics are less situational than having a narrow corridor or a corner in which to back the wizard up against, but it still bears pointing out.

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-09, 06:08 PM

My mistake.

No biggie, the rules are confusing and were often changed. Of course it means druids turn into bats without blindsense ....

They only have an amulet of Natural Armor if they don't have an Amulet of Health, that other thing that melee characters tend to wear around their necks.

True, but then you get into a greater disparity of HP instead of ac.

And since you pointed out that people don't get fast healing, there's no need to stick with Hydra. An Annis Hag has +10 NA, -1 for size, +1 Dex, for an AC of 24 assuming Mage Armor is on the table. Since it's humanoid, it can wear the wizard's Gloves of Dexterity and Ring of Protection for more AC. (I assume that I am allowed to add on magic items ad hoc as well?)

Yes, the humanoid does get to keep the magic gear (and keeps it through the change) Thats a good ac comperable to a fighters.

1. As far as we know.
2. And if she had a dip that would would be too much, would it?

1) Since she said she's a mystic theurge, and has been seen casting as if she was a mystic theurge, the reasonable assumption is that she's a mystic theurge. Assuming she is something else is the fallacy of affirming the consequent.

2) and AGAIN, its not binary.

And you were the one who suggested giving each other the benefit of a doubt.

It does start to look for a recall the third or fourth time i have to point something out specifically.

We don't know the build of anyone in OotS for certain. You can't really say that.

Roy has said flat out he's a single class fighter. Miko has said she's a mystic theurge, Elan is a bard/dancing swordsman, V is a wizard, Belkar is a "ranger with a sprinkle of barbarian" and Xykon is a sorcerer. NO ONE has demonstrated being an unholy amalgamation of prestige classes.

Don't accuse me of straw manning if you're going to do something like this.I never said all fighter types are useless. I said an Eldritch Knight can cast Polymorph. How you extrapolated that to "fighter types are useless" I do not know.

I did put the ? there. If gish's can tank better than fighting types (the case you're trying to make above) then what is the point of being a fighting type, at all?

Don't you only need about 4 scrolls of Empowered Enervation to kill one 13th level PC?

Four sets of four cost 26,400. This isn't a lot of money at level 16.

That is a TON of cash for someone to blow through in one fight. Its like showing up at a convention and spending all of your GP on oe shot items because you're not going to need them for the character next week.

I don't see the Monk/Paladin contributing much through the group.

I see them contributing a fair amount all the time, rather than a lot in fits and starts.

Hold on. Just because casters do it better doesn't mean there's no reason for melee characters to fight in combat. In fact, if there's a choice between someone bludgeoning a demon to death via a mounted charge and casting a spell to do the same thing, the most logical thing would be to let the melee character handle it in order to conserve spells.

But why even have the melee character there at all?

You were claiming you could move at x2 movement on a partial charge earlier, weren't you?

No. 20 feet is ONE move.

I will partially agree to this, but only partially. In any case, it's not your call, so don't be so sure how things will turn out.

And who's call is it? Again, dominate could make the same point with less argument.

And I disagree. A non lethal attack is still an attack. Furthermore, isn't it metagaming for the barbarian to know that it's nonlethal damage?

Its not non lethal damage, its a visibly non lethal effect. The cleric is in a ball,the rogue is a hamster, and everyone knows that fists are non lethal damage.

The only metagaming would be the barbarian without spellcraft knowing that staying cute and fuzzy while poliymorphed can be detrimental to your longterm health. Actually since the barbarian is raging it hink he blows the knowledge check automatically.

You definitely mentioned something about roughly 50% success rate when casting an enchantment against a barbarian earlier.

It was slightly better than 50 50, which means you only need to do it once statistically speaking. Or if its exactly 50 you would have to do it 1.5 times, which doesn't make any sense. *shrug* Its still better than absolutely having to do it 4 times per person.

Honestly? Barbarian/Warblade with Mad Foam Rager and Iron! Heart! Surge! if you ask me. (With Iron Heart Surge run as the writers intended, not as written.)

Yeaaah thats always pretty murky ground.

Important feats: Steadfast Determination, Mad Foam Rager, Instantaneous Rage, Intimidating Rage, and Imperious Command. Important items: that armor that allows you to intimidate as a move action, plus a Cloak of Charisma.

When the wizard starts his attack, you rage instantly in response, intimidate people, fear lock them, and either pound on them while they're cowering and unable to do anything in response, or let your party do it for you. Use Mad Foam Rager and Iron Heart Surge to either delay or get rid of any negative spells you might find yourself subject to.

In other words you fake casting fear on someone.

That's not particularly relevant against combating spellcasters, but I thought I'd highlight the abilities that I personally find useful in tanks: the ability to make yourself an obstacle that must be dealt with first in order to get to someone behind you, and the ability to make others attack you.

None of which are apparently acheivable in core.

Grapple only works against one person. Tripping fails against flying enemies, really large or strong enemies, or enemies with more than two legs/without legs. These tactics are less situational than having a narrow corridor or a corner in which to back the wizard up against, but it still bears pointing out.

Big critters are, ironically, easier to block from going through you since they need a wider cooridoor (unless they're mor ethan two sizes, in which case nothing you do is stopping them anyway)

Oh, if only the enemies once faced at level 13 and higher weren't effectively immune to grappling..

most aren't. Unless your party is collecting a vending machines worth of rings of freedom of movement off of your enemies? Or do you mean because they're ginormous?

WowWeird

2010-06-09, 06:25 PM

No, we most certainly cannot agree on the parenthetical premise (not everyone values optimization above all), and so we cannot agree on the conclusion, either.

No, not everyone values optimization above all. Heck, most of the party don't.

But there is one character whom I can't see passing up one of the many many many PRCs for overpowering arcane casters- Pre-Splice Vaarsuvius.

If your strategy is to hit everything as hard as possible, in as many places as possible, you're going to grab some front-loaded abilities- while I own only 3 non-core books, I can find one for V right off the bat.
The Ultimate Magus. V takes one level of sorcerer, then 3 levels of UM. You get four spellcasting levels for sorcerer and three for wizard, all of your spells are +1 caster level, you get other abilities that aren't as blaster-centric, the ability to sacrifice an arcane spell slot to apply a metamagic feat to a different spell, and you lose 1 bab.

Level 16 wizard who casts as 17, 3 sorcerer who casts as 4, and able to sacrifice sorcerer spell slots (V won't care for them) to metamagic them out. Assuming Cha 9, she has 15 sorcerer spells per day. 15 metamagic spells extra, cast by a level 17 wizard. OUCH

WowWeird

2010-06-09, 06:27 PM

And Elan's third-party non-core prestige class.

Non-core? Yes. Third party?
... I think not.
Julio mentions finding it in a third party sourcebook as a bit of a joke, but unless someone else can find it, I think it's really homebrew.
If someone can prove me wrong, go ahead.

Prodan

2010-06-09, 06:28 PM

1) Since she said she's a mystic theurge, and has been seen casting as if she was a mystic theurge, the reasonable assumption is that she's a mystic theurge. Assuming she is something else is the fallacy of affirming the consequent.
She didn't say she was a Wizard3/Cleric3/MT10; she just said she was a mystic theurge. We don't necessarily know the composition of her non MT classes for a fact. What I am trying to say is it is possible some people have dipped a bit and it just hasn't come up.

Roy has said flat out he's a single class fighter. Miko has said she's a mystic theurge, Elan is a bard/dancing swordsman, V is a wizard, Belkar is a "ranger with a sprinkle of barbarian" and Xykon is a sorcerer. NO ONE has demonstrated being an unholy amalgamation of prestige classes.

My mistake; some people have stated their builds. But again, we don't know the exact details of every character in OotS; forming a conclusion such as "no one dips around" from the evidence presented is a good idea.

Besides, most of them probably haven't actually been statted out, leaving the actual build up in the air.

What I would like for you to take away is that there's no hard evidence that anyone is or is not an "unholy amalgamation of prestige classes" so you should probably drop that.

I did put the ? there. If gish's can tank better than fighting types (the case you're trying to make above) then what is the point of being a fighting type, at all?
Just because something is less powerful does not mean that there is no point in playing it.

That is a TON of cash for someone to blow through in one fight.
Please consider how much it is relative to the level at which it is being blown.

50 dollars is a lot if you have no money. It's nothing if you are Bill Gates.

Incidentally, how is 6,650 for 4 scrolls (the amount I've been suggesting for this hypothetical encounter for a while) a TON of cash?

But why even have the melee character there at all?

See Treantmonk's quoted analysis of why Save or Dies are overrated. It's in the post above if you missed it.

Here, I'll even post it again.

Save Or Die - Not as good as you've been told:

Yes, Save or Die is powerful - however, it is overrated. This is why:
Spoiler

Lots of enemies: You take down one and do little else to help your Big Stupid Fighter and Glass Cannon. You spent a high level spell doing so. Congratulations - you've been demoted from God to Glass Cannon. Ouch!

One Big Enemy: You either do nothing or everything. The Big Stupid Fighter and Glass Cannon are either in lots of trouble or are feeling useless. This is like the chess player who is addicted to using his queen - ends up losing it, and then sucks for the rest of the game. Use your lesser pieces (That's the big stupid fighter and the glass cannon - your peons) to your advantage - let them do the dirty work - your job is to make it easy for them, not to take their place. Try to take their place your spells will run out fast.

By Yourself: Now in this rare circumstance - save or dies are actually quite good. However - avoid this situation like the plague. If there is no Big Stupid Fighter, then YOU are the Big Stupid Fighter, except you aren't Big, and you're not a fighter (but you are stupid if you had any chance to avoid this ugly situation).

Incidentally, both his guide and TLN's advocate supporting the fighter in letting him beat things up, not relegating him to guard duty.

No. 20 feet is ONE move.

Right, but since charging normally lets you double your movement , halving your movement means you can charge 20 and attack instead of walking 20 and attacking.

Its not non lethal damage, its a visibly non lethal effect. The cleric is in a ball,the rogue is a hamster, and everyone knows that fists are non lethal damage.
1. Monks can deal lethal damage with their fists.
2. Resilient Sphere is opaque; you can't really see through it to determine what's going on inside with great clarity.
3. Being turned into a hamster falls under the category of "victim of an attack".

The only metagaming would be the barbarian without spellcraft knowing that staying cute and fuzzy while poliymorphed can be detrimental to your longterm health.
That would not be metagaming, since barbarians eat cute and fuzzy things for breakfast.

Some things are obvious enough that you don't need to make a check for them.

It was slightly better than 50 50, which means you only need to do it once statistically speaking. Or if its exactly 50 you would have to do it 1.5 times, which doesn't make any sense. *shrug* Its still better than absolutely having to do it 4 times per person.
The hell? If something has a slightly better than 50% chance of success, you have to do it twice on average to ensure it happening.

And don't accuse me of not paying attention to things you made obviously clear if you're going to continue using the Straw Man of 4 enervations per person.

In other words you fake casting fear on someone.

It's better than fear. Fear offers a will save. Intimidate is an opposed check that relies on the intimidate skill which can be pumped very, very high. Also, happens as an immediate action.

None of which are apparently acheivable in core.
You can make enemies attack you with a Suggestion spell, but that's not something your average Monk/Paladin has.

Big critters are, ironically, easier to block from going through you since they need a wider cooridoor (unless they're mor ethan two sizes, in which case nothing you do is stopping them anyway)
This depends on you being indoors.

Also, logic question: if you're fighting them on their home turf... won't the corridors be large enough for them to go through by default?

most aren't. Unless your party is collecting a vending machines worth of rings of freedom of movement off of your enemies?
There's also Silent Spell Dimension Door. And Blink.

Mellisan

2010-06-09, 07:09 PM

No, not everyone values optimization above all. Heck, most of the party don't.

But there is one character whom I can't see passing up one of the many many many PRCs for overpowering arcane casters- Pre-Splice Vaarsuvius.

If your strategy is to hit everything as hard as possible, in as many places as possible, you're going to grab some front-loaded abilities- while I own only 3 non-core books, I can find one for V right off the bat.
The Ultimate Magus. V takes one level of sorcerer, then 3 levels of UM. You get four spellcasting levels for sorcerer and three for wizard, all of your spells are +1 caster level, you get other abilities that aren't as blaster-centric, the ability to sacrifice an arcane spell slot to apply a metamagic feat to a different spell, and you lose 1 bab.

Level 16 wizard who casts as 17, 3 sorcerer who casts as 4, and able to sacrifice sorcerer spell slots (V won't care for them) to metamagic them out. Assuming Cha 9, she has 15 sorcerer spells per day. 15 metamagic spells extra, cast by a level 17 wizard. OUCH

There's a lot of anti-sorcerer bias / stereotyping of sorcerers as dumb in the OotS universe, particularly by wizards. V almost loses her temper at being called a sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html). Even Roy makes a snarky remark about sorcerers being dumb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html), which is particularly funny coming from the person who constantly struggles against the "big dumb fighter" stereotype.

So yea, while I definitely agree that Ultimate Magus is a great path thematically for those seeking "ultimate arcane power", multiclassing as a sorcerer just doesn't seem probable for V. Archmage from SRD, or Incantatrix if we move outside that, seems more likely.

edit: also forgot: if I recall correctly, Beguiler/Wizard is a better combo for Ultimate Magus than Sorcerer/Wizard since Beguiler is a spontaneous Int-based caster, so V wouldn't need to improve her poor CHA score. But that's PHB2 so again, not OGL I don't think.

Kish

2010-06-09, 07:17 PM

So yea, while I definitely agree that Ultimate Magus is a great path thematically for those seeking "ultimate arcane power", multiclassing as a sorcerer just doesn't seem probable for V.
There's also the slight issue of Vaarsuvius having a Charisma of "not my problem," also known as "all the party members with any Charisma to speak of aren't here," which I would estimate as approximately equalling "Vaarsuvius the amazing non-spellcasting sorcerer" if s/he ever took sorcerer levels. That doesn't mean much if s/he only plans to use the levels for a crazy-powerful prestige class, of course, but only one character in the whole comic has shown signs of thinking that way, and he fell into a chasm at the end of the only strip he appeared in.

SPoD

2010-06-09, 07:39 PM

I've never heard of the tier system before reading this thread (well, the parts before it became Duel of the Quotes).

I think it highly possible that the author of the comic hasn't, either, and therefore feels no need to cling to it with the depiction of different classes.

Kish

2010-06-09, 07:59 PM

I doubt he doesn't know of it--he's a pretty Internet-savvy D&D player, and it's, unfortunately, pretty hard to avoid on the Internet. (Also, a number of the jokes, notably the ones where wizards look down on everyone else and where Leeky says that he has class features more powerful than Haley's entire class, show awareness of the concepts behind the tier system.)

I do, however, concur that Rich doesn't show any sign of viewing the tier system as anything other than a target for merciless mockery.

SPoD

2010-06-09, 08:16 PM

I doubt he doesn't know of it--he's a pretty Internet-savvy D&D player, and it's, unfortunately, pretty hard to avoid on the Internet.

First, I would argue that Rich WAS a pretty Internet-savvy D&D player when he started the strip, but started making statements along the lines of "I don't really play D&D much anymore" in 2006 or so. The earliest incarnation of a formal tier system that Google could find me was posted in 2008.

Second, anything is easy to avoid on the Internet if you don't go to places where it is discussed. If Rich doesn't read his own forums, I don't know why he would spend time reading others.

(Also, a number of the jokes, notably the ones where wizards look down on everyone else and where Leeky says that he has class features more powerful than Haley's entire class, show awareness of the concepts behind the tier system.)

I would say that Rich's observations are pretty easy to glean just by playing the game, and most predate any attempt by Internet pundits to create a standard ranking of class power.

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-09, 08:25 PM

She didn't say she was a Wizard3/Cleric3/MT10; she just said she was a mystic theurge. We don't necessarily know the composition of her non MT classes for a fact. What I am trying to say is it is possible some people have dipped a bit and it just hasn't come up.

Is there any reasono to think that that is the case, or can i go back to drawing conclussions from the evidence we DO have rather than the evidence i could make up by logical fallacy?

My mistake; some people have stated their builds. But again, we don't know the exact details of every character in OotS; forming a conclusion such as "no one dips around" from the evidence presented is a good idea.

We don't know the exact details of any of them because they're fluid as plot demands.

Just because something is less powerful does not mean that there is no point in playing it.

what is the point in playing something that is objectively inferior in every way?

Please consider how much it is relative to the level at which it is being blown.

Thats what.. 10% of his net worth? The dmg is burried, i'll dig it out later.

See Treantmonk's quoted analysis of why Save or Dies are overrated. It's in the post above if you missed it.

I disagree with treantmonks analysis. Wizards have AOE to help as well if they need it. You use aoe against multiple mooks (or just buff your friends and let them go to town) and SOD vs the big bad. While your sod's are statistically risky, you and another person throwing sod's for a few rounds are almost a sure bet.

1. Monks can deal lethal damage with their fists.
2. Resilient Sphere is opaque; you can't really see through it to determine what's going on inside with great clarity.
3. Being turned into a hamster falls under the category of "victim of an attack".

Doing that to his friends doesn't break the charm. Attacking HIM does.

Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

You and your allies, not him and his allies.

That would not be metagaming, since barbarians eat cute and fuzzy things for breakfastSome things are obvious enough that you don't need to make a check for them.

what i was refering to was the will save needed to keep your identity. Its not an obvious effect of the spell.

The hell? If something has a slightly better than 50% chance of success, you have to do it twice on average to ensure it happening.

if something happens better than 50 percent of the time it will PROBABLY happen the first time.

Technically you can't EVER ensure that it WILL happen.

And don't accuse me of not paying attention to things you made obviously clear if you're going to continue using the Straw Man of 4 enervations per person.

well, if you're going to be that inefficient with your spells i'm wondering how you plan on taking out the other 3

It's better than fear. Fear offers a will save. Intimidate is an opposed check that relies on the intimidate skill which can be pumped very, very high. Also, happens as an immediate action.

Yeah, prestige class "as it was meant to be" diplomacy intimidate cheese. Not impressive.
Core. Core. Core. Quote the raven "Core". All statements were made for core and qualified as such.

This depends on you being indoors.

Name of the game is DUNGEONS and dragons.

Also, logic question: if you're fighting them on their home turf... won't the corridors be large enough for them to go through by default?

Yes. But will it be wide enough for two of them? (this is hard to show without pictures but bear with me.

Shale is our meat shield.

5 foot tall person 5 foot wide cooridoor. Easily blocked by a medium critter.

5 foot person. 10 foot wide cooridoor. Not easily blocked by Shale

10 foot ogre. 10 foot wide cooridoor. Easily blocked by shale.

10 foot ogre. 15 foot cooridoor. Easily blocked by shale (he stands in the middle square)

10 foot ogre 20 foot wide cooridoor. Shale stands in the middle, Squishy the wizard stands behind him, and he'll draw an aoo and loose most of his movement getting to squishy. You can also use the cleric to backup tank.

There's also Silent Spell Dimension Door. And Blink.

Blink is bad for everyone involved. Dimension door is good but there's only a limited number and you can't break out the wands or scrolls with any ease while grappeled. It also eats their action for a round, every round they're dimension dooring is a round they're not killing your friends.

Prodan

2010-06-09, 08:49 PM

Is there any reasono to think that that is the case, or can i go back to drawing conclussions from the evidence we DO have rather than the evidence i could make up by logical fallacy?
It's a possibility, and I've been maintaining that.

what is the point in playing something that is objectively inferior in every way?

Cause it's fun. You know, fun, that thing we play games to have?

Thats what.. 10% of his net worth? The dmg is burried, i'll dig it out later.

I disagree with treantmonks analysis. Wizards have AOE to help as well if they need it. You use aoe against multiple mooks (or just buff your friends and let them go to town) and SOD vs the big bad. While your sod's are statistically risky, you and another person throwing sod's for a few rounds are almost a sure bet.
Feel free to disagree, but that is a reason to not toss out SoD spells like it's candy on Halloween.

Doing that to his friends doesn't break the charm. Attacking HIM does.
And convincing HIM to sit still while doing it takes convincing. Ie, standard action charisma check.

what i was refering to was the will save needed to keep your identity. Its not an obvious effect of the spell.
In a combat situation, being polymorphed into a defenseless animal is so obviously a bad thing that an insistence that a Barbarian will not object to it is absurd.

if something happens better than 50 percent of the time it will PROBABLY happen the first time.
It will be more likely to happen the first time than the second time, but on average it will take two tries to get it through. The formula for this statistical probability is 1/(probability).

well, if you're going to be that inefficient with your spells i'm wondering how you plan on taking out the other 3
Maze the cleric. Blind the Rogue. Feeblemind the wizard, or use a Fort SoD on him. Three actions, three characters.

Yeah, prestige class "as it was meant to be" diplomacy intimidate cheese. Not impressive.
I was not stating it to impress you; you asked what I would like to counter casters and I gave it to you.

In other words, feel free to be not impressed.

Core. Core. Core. Quote the raven "Core". All statements were made for core and qualified as such.

Like a broken record. The core limitation is rediculous because the campaing world clearly is not restricted to core.

Name of the game is DUNGEONS and dragons.

That's not an actual argument; the game of DUNGEONS and Dragons does not take place exclusively in dungeons. There's also ships, tundras, deserts, forests, mountains, cities, the skies...

Yes. But will it be wide enough for two of them? (this is hard to show without pictures but bear with me.

Why do you need two when you can bull rush the defender?

Blink is bad for everyone involved.
It's rather good for Rogues. They get a source of concealment from which to sneak attack with arrows. Arrows don't suffer the miss chance because once an object leaves your posession, it cannot be affected by the Blink spell and returns to the material plane. (Of course, it can be also ruled that the arrow stays on the ethereal plane.)

Dimension door is good but there's only a limited number and you can't break out the wands or scrolls with any ease while grappeled.
If you're getting grappled constantly as a level 16 caster, you're doing it wrong.

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-09, 10:12 PM

It's a possibility, and I've been maintaining that.

Based on a logical fallacy.

Cause it's fun. You know, fun, that thing we play games to have?

I don't subscribe to the idea that less roll play automatically makes more role play. What i make a character for doesn't have to be optimal, but what its doing it SHOULD do well. People tell me if i want to do a conjurer, play a cleric. I played it as a wizard... and used the high int to get languages so i could order the beasts around in combat. and snagged the improved summoning feats. It was fun and worked very well.

Feel free to disagree, but that is a reason to not toss out SoD spells like it's candy on Halloween.

well, you don't do it on mooks. You wait till you see the big bad and hear the evil rant. Goatees are a good sign too.

And convincing HIM to sit still while doing it takes convincing. Ie, standard action charisma check.

Is the charismia check listed as a standard action? Its not a diplomacy check, and stopping one friend from frying another with a tackle is well within the barbarian job description.

In a combat situation, being polymorphed into a defenseless animal is so obviously a bad thing that an insistence that a Barbarian will not object to it is [I]absurd

Its not combat. As far as the charmed person is concerned its a serious disagrement between freinds that the polymorphing wizard is solving non lethally.

It will be more likely to happen the first time than the second time, but on average it will take two tries to get it through. The formula for this statistical probability is 1/(probability).

No. Its no more likely to happen on any one particular time than any other time.

If you have a (non loaded) 6 sided die and you need a 6. You roll a 1 3 4 2 1. your chances of Rolling a 6 on the next roll are STILL 1/6. (the idea that its more likely the 6th time is the gamblers fallacy)

If your chances of making something happen are 55%, then 55% of the time it will happen on the first shot. IF the first shot misses and you do it again, the chances of it working the second time are STILL 55%.

If you haven't cast it at all yet, and plan on casting it twice, the odds of him making both saves are (1-.55) *(1- .55) or 30.25 (giving mr wizard 69.75% chance of victory)

Maze the cleric. Blind the Rogue. Feeblemind the wizard, or use a Fort SoD on him. Three actions, three characters.

You're up to 7 actions for four. That means during the first 3 rounds you had to deal with 3 wizard spells and 3 cleric spells.. good chance that was enough to dust you before you can get to the maze spell.

I was not stating it to impress you; you asked what I would like to counter casters and I gave it to you.

What options do you like if you're limited to core?

Like a broken record. The core limitation is rediculous because the campaing world clearly is not restricted to core.

It also has clear limits on cheese, and splatbooks are no OGL material, so the author has to be a little more careful with describing them.

That's not an actual argument; the game of DUNGEONS and Dragons does not take place exclusively in dungeons. There's also ships, tundras, deserts, forests, mountains, cities, the skies...

Right, unusual situations happen, but they're not the norm. In the woods you use trees, in tundra's you use ice bridges, ships are naturally crowded. Ok, in the desert you're kind of hosed, but cites have the same confines as dungeons.

Why do you need two when you can bull rush the defender?

Because that blows your attack action for the round. Depending on the defender it may not be a sure thing either.

It's rather good for Rogues. They get a source of concealment from which to sneak attack with arrows. Arrows don't suffer the miss chance because once an object leaves your posession, it cannot be affected by the Blink spell and returns to the material plane. (Of course, it can be also ruled that the arrow stays on the ethereal plane.)

What i mean is the opponent blinking is problematic for everyone.

If you're getting grappled constantly as a level 16 caster, you're doing it wrong

It can be defended against but it burns actions.

Prodan

2010-06-09, 10:36 PM

Based on a logical fallacy.
Since you're so fond of logical fallacies, here's one for you.

Argument from Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy)

I don't subscribe to the idea that less roll play automatically makes more role play. What i make a character for doesn't have to be optimal, but what its doing it SHOULD do well. People tell me if i want to do a conjurer, play a cleric. I played it as a wizard... and used the high int to get languages so i could order the beasts around in combat. and snagged the improved summoning feats. It was fun and worked very well.

"What i make a character for doesn't have to be optimal, but what its doing it SHOULD do well."

This is the key part. And as has been said, warriors have no problem fighting. It's just that that's all they're good for.

Is the charismia check listed as a standard action? Its not a diplomacy check, and stopping one friend from frying another with a tackle is well within the barbarian job description.
"Ability Checks

Sometimes a character tries to do something to which no specific skill really applies. In these cases, you make an ability check. An ability check is a roll of 1d20 plus the appropriate ability modifier. Essentially, you’re making an untrained skill check. "
The standard assumption is that checks are made as standard actions.

Its not combat. As far as the charmed person is concerned its a serious disagrement between freinds that the polymorphing wizard is solving non lethally. I don't know about your friends, but mine do not solve serious disagreements by punching each other in the face, turning each other into animals, and knocking someone out. It would take a very good argument to convince me to stand aside, and another even better one to get me to help.

Two charisma checks, please.

You're up to 7 actions for four. That means during the first 3 rounds you had to deal with 3 wizard spells and 3 cleric spells.. good chance that was enough to dust you before you can get to the maze spell.
Why you assume I went for the paladin first is beyond me, since he obviously was posing no threat.

Combat goes:
Round 1: Either Cleric or Wizard is attacked
Round 2: Survivor is attacked
Round 3: Rogue is attacked
Round 4: Paladin, unable to defend the wizard, cleric, or rogue by standing around, is attacked.

What options do you like if you're limited to core?

Taking doesn't work in core. Best you can hope for is to get good reach, trip and make use of AoOs. And be in people's face about it; attacking someone draws fire better than standing around passively.

Right, unusual situations happen, but they're not the norm.
Open combat isn't unusual if WotC published campaigns are anything to go by.

Because that blows your attack action for the round. Depending on the defender it may not be a sure thing either.
In the example of Ogre vs Human, it would probably work.

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-09, 11:16 PM

Argument from Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy)

Not remotely what i'm doing.

I have evidence. You have none. Thats how conclussions are drawn.

This is the key part. And as has been said, warriors have no problem fighting. It's just that that's all they're good for.

And what aspect of fighting are they good at according to you?

The standard assumption is that checks are made as standard actions.
I don't know about your friends, but mine do not solve serious disagreements by punching each other in the face, turning each other into animals, and knocking someone out. It would take a very good argument to convince me to stand aside, and another even better one to get me to help.

You've never had friends that were in a frat or an adventuring party apparently.

We're not talking about charming an office worker here, we're talking about charming someone whos life is dedicated to squishing the internal organs of other sentient beings with a sharp metal object.

Bob the wizard charms the barbarian. The barbarian sees his friend, Bob, get shot with Aragorns arrows, slashed by stabby the 8th dwarf, and take a magic missle in the face from merlin. Obviously, Bob is not at fault here (since nothing he did was overtyly offensive), and either Aragorn, stabby, or merlin need to be stopped pronto. To a rational 21st century person they can be stopped by talking. To a barbarian or a tackle has a higher rate of success than a diplomacy check.

Two charisma checks, please.

how on earth do you get 2?

Why you assume I went for the paladin first is beyond me, since he obviously was posing no threat.

Right, because he has his build posted on his shield with his family crest and it says "all defenseive ability"

Combat goes:
Round 1: Either Cleric or Wizard is attacked
Round 2: Survivor is attacked
Round 3: Rogue is attacked
Round 4: Paladin, unable to defend the wizard, cleric, or rogue by standing around, is attacked.

I'd go for the pally after the casters. Rogues are far less lethal.

Taking doesn't work in core. Best you can hope for is to get good reach, trip and make use of AoOs.

Its always worked for me, with a number of DM's. Trips, grapples, cleaves, great cleaves, and a wizard that knows the value of an enlarge person on his meatshield always did wonders for me. The difference is that i'm willing to accept my role in the party without worrying what i'm doing to a damage meter.

In the example of Ogre vs Human, it would probably work.

Right, but it burns the attack, meaning the wizard and cleric are free to retaliate.

Prodan

2010-06-10, 07:36 AM

Argument from Fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy)

Not remotely what i'm doing.
Oh, then I am totally convinced you are not doing it.

I have evidence. You have none. Thats how conclussions are drawn.
You have evidence that she is a Mystic Theurge. You do not have evidence as to any other prestige class she might have; the possibility is there. You cannot conclude that she definitely does not have any other dips.

And what aspect of fighting are they good at according to you?
Dealing damage, hitting things in the face.

You've never had friends that were in a frat or an adventuring party apparently.

We're not talking about charming an office worker here, we're talking about charming someone whos life is dedicated to squishing the internal organs of other sentient beings with a sharp metal object.

Bob the wizard charms the barbarian. The barbarian sees his friend, Bob, get shot with Aragorns arrows, slashed by stabby the 8th dwarf, and take a magic missle in the face from merlin. Obviously, Bob is not at fault here (since nothing he did was overtyly offensive), and either Aragorn, stabby, or merlin need to be stopped pronto. To a rational 21st century person they can be stopped by talking. To a barbarian or a tackle has a higher rate of success than a diplomacy check.
1. It is not up to you to decide how the character would react; not all barbarians in this world solved social problems by violence and I have no reason to believe that violence would be the first solution the fictional barbarian chooses.
2. Barbarians have Intimidate as a class skill.

how on earth do you get 2?
1. "Don't interfere."
2. "Grapple your friend."

Right, because he has his build posted on his shield with his family crest and it says "all defenseive ability"
Let's see: Melee character, likely not a cleric, compared to the cleric and the wizard. I choose to believe that the man with an intellect superior to Einstein's will be able to accurately asses the power level of the people he is fighting and attack the strongest first.

Also, the other characters are probably doing something, and not standing around defensively.

I'd go for the pally after the casters. Rogues are far less lethal.
The essential points remains undisputed.

Its always worked for me, with a number of DM's. Trips, grapples, cleaves, great cleaves, and a wizard that knows the value of an enlarge person on his meatshield always did wonders for me. The difference is that i'm willing to accept my role in the party without worrying what i'm doing to a damage meter.

Have you considered that it's due to DMing styles? While it makes less sense for the enemy to target a tank first if he lacks significant offensive capability, a DM may do so in order to avoid causing problems for the player.

Right, but it burns the attack, meaning the wizard and cleric are free to retaliate.
As opposed to the normal course of events, where the wizard and cleric would have just let the Ogre go about his way?

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-10, 08:34 AM

Oh, then I am totally convinced you are not doing it.

Reality is not so subjective.

You have evidence that she is a Mystic Theurge. You do not have evidence as to any other prestige class she might have; the possibility is there. You cannot conclude that she definitely does not have any other dips.

Again, affirmig the consequent. "You can't technically "prove" anything, therefor you're free to make up anything you want" doesn't work. I don't have any disproof that nixon wasn't a realistic alien Robot Pirate ninja from the future, so i'm going to write a history book about Nixons Robot pirate ninja adventures.

Dealing damage, hitting things in the face.

Wizards do that MUCH much better than fighting types.

1. It is not up to you to decide how the character would react; not all barbarians in this world solved social problems by violence and I have no reason to believe that violence would be the first solution the fictional barbarian chooses.

We don't have a DM between us in this situation or a particular barbarian's brain to dissect. Since the charm person spell is not recognizable as a threat, and in all likelyhood the party will continue to beat on Bob , the barbarian needs to stop the party from beating on bob somehow. I can't see that "Somehow" translating into "attacking Bob" (except mayby to carry him away) since all bob did was apparently stand there.

I'm sure that there are barbarians that wouldn't use violence in that situation.. but they're pretty rare.

[quote]2. Barbarians have Intimidate as a class skill.
That would work too.

1. "Don't interfere."
2. "Grapple your friend."

You're not required to charm someone through the stages of interference.those are also mutually contradictory orders.

Grapple your friend is at most, one check. I consider trying to argue that its outside the normal actions for a barbarian facing two friends in a lethal fight cheese to avoid the spells intent. The spell is powerful enough to make someone hold off a rampaging red dragon for a round or two, its more than enough to put the wizard in a bear hug.

Let's see: Melee character, likely not a cleric, compared to the cleric and the wizard. I choose to believe that the man with an intellect superior to Einstein's will be able to accurately asses the power level of the people he is fighting and attack the strongest first.

Reason doesn't get you everywhere. Just because gaming groups have characters with all the same level doesn't mean that this group didn't grab pompey back in town or grab someone's nephew to show them the ropes.

But again, you're pointing out problems with fighting types in general, not this particular fighting type.

Also, the other characters are probably doing something, and not standing around defensively.
The essential points remains undisputed.

That point being the pendantic observation that since there is a set of spells the wizard might have preparred (quickened true strike and enervations) that would be effective on anyone that the pallymonk is not completely immune to spells?

Speaking of essential points remaining undisputed -

For oots verse (which has limited access to non core prestige classes) , and with high stats the class combo makes a very effective party tank. The monks high saves synergize well with the pallys bonuses vs spells.

You've challanged all of the initial assumptions but not the conclussion if they're correct. Just because 1 spell combination might be effective against it, assuming that somehow, the wizard knew ahead of time the characters class levels, does not negate the fact that they're very resistant to magic.

Have you considered that it's due to DMing styles?

Yes, since i said under a number of DMs.

While it makes less sense for the enemy to target a tank first if he lacks significant offensive capability, a DM may do so in order to avoid causing problems for the player.

But being grappled or tripped puts a aserious crimp in the wizards style, so if the tank is moving in to position to do that, he needs to be dealth with eventually.

Also this is ignoring a large number of fights against melee monsters where the tank has a chance to shine. Not every character is built for every fight (even though the wizard can be rebuilt for every fight, they're still built at 8 am and they're stuck with it till the next day)

As opposed to the normal course of events, where the wizard and cleric would have just let the Ogre go about his way?

No, as opposed to the normal course of events when the ogre would get to bash them an extra time.

SoC175

2010-06-10, 11:11 AM

No. The standard 3.5 assumption is dice rolling. Thats the default mechanism in the PHB. Living greyhawk does point buy to keep everything fair and to keep folks from showing up with all 18's that they "rolled honestly" And the average result of dice rolling is app. 25 points point-buy which is indeed the version used to playtest 3.x.

Prodan

2010-06-10, 11:21 AM

Again, affirmig the consequent. "You can't technically "prove" anything, therefor you're free to make up anything you want" doesn't work. I don't have any disproof that nixon wasn't a realistic alien Robot Pirate ninja from the future, so i'm going to write a history book about Nixons Robot pirate ninja adventures.
It would explain a lot about Nixon, to be honest.

Wizards do that MUCH much better than fighting types.
Hitting things in the face? Really? Weren't you just saying a few posts ago how a wizard could not do as well as a pickup trick?

Also, wizards dealing direct damage has always been viewed as suboptimal. Citations: TLN's wizard guide, Treantmonk's wizard guide.

We don't have a DM between us in this situation or a particular barbarian's brain to dissect. Since the charm person spell is not recognizable as a threat, and in all likelyhood the party will continue to beat on Bob , the barbarian needs to stop the party from beating on bob somehow. I can't see that "Somehow" translating into "attacking Bob" (except mayby to carry him away) since all bob did was apparently stand there.
I never said the barbarian would attack Bob. Is this not a straw man?

I'm sure that there are barbarians that wouldn't use violence in that situation.. but they're pretty rare.
And you know this due to your extensive research on the barbarians of the Mongolian steppes and Visigoths?

Grapple your friend is at most, one check.
So that takes up one standard action. If the party's pressing up hard enough on a wizard that he can't afford a spare action (as you seemed to have indicted earlier when telling me I could not afford the time to level drain someone; apologies if I am mistaken) how well will this tactic work?

I consider trying to argue that its outside the normal actions for a barbarian facing two friends in a lethal fight cheese to avoid the spells intent. The spell is powerful enough to make someone hold off a rampaging red dragon for a round or two, its more than enough to put the wizard in a bear hug.
The spell Charm Person can't affect red dragons.

That point being the pendantic observation that since there is a set of spells the wizard might have preparred (quickened true strike and enervations) that would be effective on anyone that the pallymonk is not completely immune to spells?
There are other spells that the pallymonk isn't immune to. I have made this point several times and you seem to be ignoring it.

Speaking of essential points remaining undisputed -

For oots verse (which has limited access to non core prestige classes) , and with high stats the class combo makes a very effective party tank. The monks high saves synergize well with the pallys bonuses vs spells.

You've challanged all of the initial assumptions but not the conclussion if they're correct. Just because 1 spell combination might be effective against it, assuming that somehow, the wizard knew ahead of time the characters class levels, does not negate the fact that they're very resistant to magic.

I dispute that you can make a good tank because you can't draw aggro. And there's more than one spell combination that will be effective against a pallymonk's so called "resistance to magic".

Want an example? Wall of Force. The Pallymonk is now cut off from the party and his contribution to the fight is roughly zero unless he can teleport.

Yes, since i said under a number of DMs.
Was it also under a number of different DMing styles?

But being grappled or tripped puts a aserious crimp in the wizards style, so if the tank is moving in to position to do that, he needs to be dealth with eventually.

If the tank's trying to trip the enemy wizard, the wizard laughs and casts spells. If the tank's trying to grapple the enemy wizard 3-4 levels above him, there's enough ways to negate or escape grapple at higher levels that it's unlikely to happen unless the wizard is not being played to full strength.

Also this is ignoring a large number of fights against melee monsters where the tank has a chance to shine.
How will he shine? He can't force anyone to attack him, so the best tactic is to be an obstacle which can be ignored (move around) or bypassed (bull rush) depending on the monster's abilities. Being the tactical equivalent of a speed bump is not shining.

No, as opposed to the normal course of events when the ogre would get to bash them an extra time.
How would the ogre get to bash the wizard an extra time if the wizard is behind the tank?

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-10, 05:49 PM

It would explain a lot about Nixon, to be honest.

Don't be ridiculous.. the ninja pirate zombie robots are MUCH much better at emulating human behavior, and have a conscience.

Hitting things in the face? Really? Weren't you just saying a few posts ago how a wizard could not do as well as a pickup trick?

A pickup truck in this example being a tank, not a beatstick.

Also, wizards dealing direct damage has always been viewed as suboptimal. Citations: TLN's wizard guide, Treantmonk's wizard guide.

Citing someone else on the internet doesn't work very well. Could you provide the gist of their argument for consideration?

I never said the barbarian would attack Bob. Is this not a straw man?

You said an order would need to be given to Get The barbarian to stand aside. If he's already standing aside why wouldn't this be neccesary?

And you know this due to your extensive research on the barbarians of the Mongolian steppes and Visigoths?

Mostly conan movies.

So that takes up one standard action. If the party's pressing up hard enough on a wizard that he can't afford a spare action (as you seemed to have indicted earlier when telling me I could not afford the time to level drain someone; apologies if I am mistaken) how well will this tactic work?

Very, since you're now saying that the barbarian won't attack bob, its one hit and he's out of the fight. Even if he needs a cha check to get the barbarian to grapple the wizard, thats 2 actions to deal with two party members. His scheduel would prefer to be 1 party member per round, so that puts him on course.

The spell Charm Person can't affect red dragons.

...........

You charm someone else (a person) into holding off the red dragon for a round for you.

There are other spells that the pallymonk isn't immune to. I have made this point several times and you seem to be ignoring it.

Shooting down your ideas is ignoring? You mentioned the wall of force.. its no big deal, you just wait for someone else to deal with it.

I dispute that you can make a good tank because you can't draw aggro. And there's more than one spell combination that will be effective against a pallymonk's so called "resistance to magic".

SInce when is resistance proof? He IS in fact highly resistant to spells. Thats a good thing. Also, since the bbged isn't the dm and doesn't get to see what his saves are, he doesn't know that certain combos are almost needed to deal with him.

Want an example? Wall of Force. The Pallymonk is now cut off from the party and his contribution to the fight is roughly zero unless he can teleport.

So anyone that can't teleport has zero usefulness?

Was it also under a number of different DMing styles?

Yes, everything from gladatorial arena's to dungeon delving to deep imersion rp.

If the tank's trying to trip the enemy wizard, the wizard laughs and casts spells.

From the ground, where everyone flanks him (for +2) and gets a +4 to attack him. (from being prone)

If the tank's trying to grapple the enemy wizard 3-4 levels above him, there's enough ways to negate or escape grapple at higher levels that it's unlikely to happen unless the wizard is not being played to full strength.

You can only dimension door so many times, and if the parties smart when the pally grapples the wizard will have his own dimension door ready to use with a counterspell.

How will he shine? He can't force anyone to attack him, so the best tactic is to be an obstacle which can be ignored (move around) or bypassed (bull rush) depending on the monster's abilities. Being the tactical equivalent of a speed bump is not shining.

bull rush is far from automatic, and not everything has tumble.

How would the ogre get to bash the wizard an extra time if the wizard is behind the tank?

With out tank: the ogre charges and hits the wizard. the wizard casts. The ogre hits the wizard again. The wizard casts.

With tank: the ogre bull rushes the fighter and gets a whack of oopportunity. The wizard casts. The fighter gets up, gets whacked by the ogre, whacks the ogre probably with a flanking bonus) The ogre whacks the wizard (if its smart enough or instructed to) The wizard casts