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View Full Version : Beholder or Illithid, which one is more badass?



NekoJoker
2010-05-31, 08:00 PM
so it's basically that. i've got to come up with a BBEG on the Aberration side, so i am torn between Boholder or Ilithid, It must top on CR 20.

The glove has been thrown.

FIGHT!

Darwin
2010-05-31, 08:02 PM
Beholder. Yay for superior action economy! :smallbiggrin:

tyckspoon
2010-05-31, 08:09 PM
Beholders have much more impressive innate abilities and much better ability to deal with multiple opponents, which makes them more suitable to be a final challenge. On the other hand, illithids are much more believable villains, with plans and motivations that at least resemble humanoid ones (at least, if you go by Lords of Madness fluff, which states that every single Beholder is utterly, utterly insane.) I'd probably go with both- use an Illithid as the mastermind, and a Beholder as his Dragon, with the illithid having gotten as close to the beholder's trust as anything can. Then he uses that trust to point the beholder's paranoia at targets, resulting in disintegrations and petrifications.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-31, 08:20 PM
In terms of coolness? Beholder all the way.

In terms of 'evil mastermind' vibes? Illithid wins. Though, I throw out Lords of Madness fluff and use Goodman Games' Complete Guide to Beholders fluff instead, which makes the eye tyrants almost as believable masterminds as mind flayers.

In terms of power? By simple HD advancement, Beholder wins. If racial PrCs are taken into account - Beholder Mage vs. Illithid Savant...I'd still say Beholder Mage comes out on top. Illithid Savant can technically be better (that is to say, unbeatable/invincible), but then you might as well just have your BBEG be Pun-Pun. Without abusing the cheese, Savant is just a double-triple gestalt, while BMage still makes action economy squeal like a pig.

So, Beholder wins in 2/3 categories.

KillianHawkeye
2010-05-31, 08:24 PM
Yeah, it really depends on what kind of role you want the BBEG to fill. Beholders are better combatants, while Mind Flayers are great manipulators and have tons of minions.

NekoJoker
2010-05-31, 08:31 PM
I was actually thinking in terms of raw power or resources.

The idea of having a Beholder as the Dragon is neat, I still have to flesh it out.

sooo... seems like beholder wins the bad ass race right?

Private-Prinny
2010-05-31, 08:31 PM
Illithid Savants eating the brains of other Illithid Savants. Mmm, cheese...

(BTW, I prefer Illithids)

Barbarian_Dan
2010-05-31, 08:32 PM
An illithid...that also happens to be a vampire.

Vaynor
2010-05-31, 08:32 PM
Mind flayers all the way. Beholders may have some cool powers, but mind flayers will eat you for breakfast. Literally.

Vitruviansquid
2010-05-31, 08:34 PM
Beholder.

I find beholders much more powerful symbolically. I mean, it's a freakin' giant floating eye that shoots lasers! It just screams "evil-mastermind-who-wants-to-dominate-everything!" It just screams "LAWFUL EVIL BIG BROTHER."

Illithids just look a bit like Cthulhu. That's the extent of their bastardy. :smallsigh:

The Glyphstone
2010-05-31, 08:35 PM
Illithid Savants eating the brains of other Illithid Savants. Mmm, cheese...

(BTW, I prefer Illithids)

See also: Pun-Pun as the BBEG. At that point, why not?:smallconfused:


Mind flayers all the way. Beholders may have some cool powers, but mind flayers will eat you for breakfast. Literally.

Mind flayers will eat your brain for breakfast. Beholders will eat your entire body in a single sitting for a light snack.

For Valor
2010-05-31, 08:36 PM
alright, so there are two ways to think about this:

1) Mechanically: What would be a better challenge for the PC's? Honestly, the Beholder's eye rays and whatnot would be very little of a hassle, as the PC's saves would be high (at Level 20) at the Beholder's DC's would be rather low (meant for level 13). Also, the beholder would be taking 7 levels in a class to matchup to CR 20. What class does a Beholder take? Wizard. Basically, the PC's will be facing a 7th level Wizard with a scary antimagic cone and some blasting powers. Not very intimidating to your average party of 20th level chars.

The Illithid also doesn't have many impactful physical abilities to use on the PC's (it might get lucky with a Mind Blast), but it will have 12 levels of a class. For an illithid, that means Psion (or Erudite). And 12 levels of that is far more intimidating than 7 levels of anything else.

2) Badassery: Beholders are xenophobic and always hate each other. They carve out secluded lairs and usually live alone forever. Chances of a Beholder leading a big takeover of the world are next to 0.

Illithids are freaking amazing. They live in a city with an elder brain that contains the brains of all their dead ancestors. They know the secrets to everything, and they're constantly searching for more power. Illithids form inquisitions and cults to figure out dark secrets, and they're well-known for being HELLA power-hungry. They make a lot more sense to use...

The choice I'd have to make is actually between Aboleth and Illithid, but if you've already ruled the Aboleth out, then the Illithid is the way to go.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-31, 08:39 PM
Illithid.

I find illithids much more powerful symbolically. I mean, it's a freakin' mini-Cthulhu that eats brains! It just screams "evil-mastermind-who-wants-to-dominate-everything!" It just screams "LAWFUL EVIL BIG BROTHER."

Beholders just look a bit like a Gorgon. That's the extent of their bastardy. :smallsigh:

Fixed that for you.

Vaynor
2010-05-31, 08:41 PM
Beholder.

I find beholders much more powerful symbolically. I mean, it's a freakin' giant floating eye that shoots lasers! It just screams "evil-mastermind-who-wants-to-dominate-everything!" It just screams "LAWFUL EVIL BIG BROTHER."

Illithids just look a bit like Cthulhu. That's the extent of their bastardy. :smallsigh:

Lawful Evil Big Brother to me is the one that can actually read minds.

Also, as far as illithids' power goes, I prefer the psionic variant. Much more deadly.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-31, 08:50 PM
alright, so there are two ways to think about this:

1) Mechanically: What would be a better challenge for the PC's? Honestly, the Beholder's eye rays and whatnot would be very little of a hassle, as the PC's saves would be high (at Level 20) at the Beholder's DC's would be rather low (meant for level 13). Also, the beholder would be taking 7 levels in a class to matchup to CR 20. What class does a Beholder take? Wizard. Basically, the PC's will be facing a 7th level Wizard with a scary antimagic cone and some blasting powers. Not very intimidating to your average party of 20th level chars.

Why would the Beholder take Wizard levels? As you mentioned, that's pointless. He's going to level in Beholder Mage, making him an unholy combat terror, or else just pile on 22 Abberation Hit Dice and a couple levels of Fighter or something, then go mix it up in melee while firing his rays in all directions - they're still weak, but he can get a lot of shots off each turn, and 7 of its 10 rays are Don't Roll A One-Or-Lose.



The Illithid also doesn't have many impactful physical abilities to use on the PC's (it might get lucky with a Mind Blast), but it will have 12 levels of a class. For an illithid, that means Psion (or Erudite). And 12 levels of that is far more intimidating than 7 levels of anything else.

(Except Beholder Mage, but that's mentioned above). Mind Flayers can't advance by HD, which is unfortunate for them, so they're stuck with 12 levels of Sorcerer, or Psion, or whatever. Scary, but it's still only a level 12 caster... actually a level lower than the beholder's eyebeams are, which you already dismissed as having saves too low to matter for a level 20 party.



2) Badassery: Beholders are xenophobic and always hate each other. They carve out secluded lairs and usually live alone forever. Chances of a Beholder leading a big takeover of the world are next to 0.

Illithids are freaking amazing. They live in a city with an elder brain that contains the brains of all their dead ancestors. They know the secrets to everything, and they're constantly searching for more power. Illithids form inquisitions and cults to figure out dark secrets, and they're well-known for being HELLA power-hungry. They make a lot more sense to use...

With you on this one though. Without dispensing with the default fluff, Beholders' don't make great BBEGs unless you take advantage of the "sane beholder" phenomenon touched on in LoM.



The choice I'd have to make is actually between Aboleth and Illithid, but if you've already ruled the Aboleth out, then the Illithid is the way to go.

Aboleth don't make great villains unless you've planned an aquatic campaign though. Beholders (and illithids) can be used anywhere abovewater, which tends to be larger portions of most game worlds.




Both are iconic D&D monsters, but Beholders I find to be more pure-D&D creation, at least to the point that I don't recognize what mythological monster they rip off (and no, Gorgon is the wrong answer). Mind Flayers are pretty blatantly inspired by Cthulhu to at least some degree in their appearance.

awa
2010-05-31, 08:59 PM
beholders don't play well with other beholders but don't they have dominates or charms as at will abilities (all ive got on hand is the srd). He could easily have a cult of followers or armies of dupes by dominating their leader.

Vaynor
2010-05-31, 09:02 PM
(Except Beholder Mage, but that's mentioned above). Mind Flayers can't advance by HD, which is unfortunate for them, so they're stuck with 12 levels of Sorcerer, or Psion, or whatever. Scary, but it's still only a level 12 caster... actually a level lower than the beholder's eyebeams are, which you already dismissed as having saves too low to matter for a level 20 party.

Well with a psionic mind flayer that changes from 12th level psion + a few measly SLA's to 21st level psion there's a pretty large gap in power. Big difference, which I feel is worth mentioning.

Private-Prinny
2010-05-31, 09:08 PM
Both are iconic D&D monsters, but Beholders I find to be more pure-D&D creation, at least to the point that I don't recognize what mythological monster they rip off (and no, Gorgon is the wrong answer). Mind Flayers are pretty blatantly inspired by Cthulhu to at least some degree in their appearance.

This is what I was thinking of. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080217170105/finalfantasy/images/5/5a/FF3NES-Medusa.gifLooks a bit like a Beholder to me. It just has two eyes instead of one.

The Glyphstone
2010-05-31, 09:09 PM
Well with a psionic mind flayer that changes from 12th level psion + a few measly SLA's to 21st level psion there's a pretty large gap in power. Big difference, which I feel is worth mentioning.

True. A level 21 Psion can make an excellent CR20 boss encounter, especially since it's not nearly as helpless in melee as a typical Psion21 would be. It's definitely at least as powerful as a Beholder Mage 7, though I'm not sure which would actually come out on top - 7th-9th level psionic powers aren't the quadratic paradigm shift that 7th-9th level spells are, it's mainly just more power points to nova with...and the Mage is still better at nova-ing. It'd be an interesting comparison for certain.


This is what I was thinking of. http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080217170105/finalfantasy/images/5/5a/FF3NES-Medusa.gifLooks a bit like a Beholder to me. It just has two eyes instead of one.
Well, two eyes, and the 'hair' being snakes instead of eyeballs, like the mythological Medusa/Gorgon. I can see the hypothetical link, though if we're linking to video game monsters, I would have made the connection between beholders and the Cacodaemons of DOOM first.

http://dosglob.org/img/cacodemon.gif

Also Looks a bit like a beholder. it just has spikes instead of eye-tentacles.

JeminiZero
2010-05-31, 09:23 PM
Beholders are stronger (exception: only if the opposition did not prepare Ray Deflection the level 4 spell). But Mindflayers are smarter, and do not work alone. Between the 2, I would say that the Mindflayers make for far more scary BBEGs due to the ability to enact well-planned world domination schemes (which may or may not include complicated Troll crossbreeding).

The Glyphstone
2010-05-31, 09:30 PM
Beholders are stronger (exception: only if the opposition did not prepare Ray Deflection the level 4 spell). But Mindflayers are smarter, and do not work alone. Between the 2, I would say that the Mindflayers make for far more scary BBEGs due to the ability to enact well-planned world domination schemes (which may or may not include complicated Troll crossbreeding).

Technically, Mind Flayers can be mostly shut down with Freedom of Movement the Level 4 spell, but they still have their innate abilities (which can mimic a level 20+ psion with the adaptation). But beholders do lose almost all their offensive capability if your players have access to Spell Compendium and know they're fighting a beholder.

Mongoose87
2010-05-31, 09:54 PM
Illithid Savant that had eaten a Beholder Mage's brain.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-31, 09:54 PM
Mind Blank also shuts down Mind Flayers pretty hard. Mind Blank and Freedom of Movement and you've won half the battle.

You have to get more creative with beholders. Ray deflection, Invoke Magic, AMF... you've got some options.

As far as better BBEG potential, I've always favored illithids. Beholders just seem a bit too solitary and a bit too goofy for my tastes. Don't forget that Illithids have CR 25+ Elder Brains running the show.

Or course... then there's Hive Mothers... *shudders*

I see beholders serving as dominated illithid artillery. Mind Flayers get my vote.

PId6
2010-05-31, 10:00 PM
My vote goes to a Beholder Mage that PaOs himself into an Illithid in order to take levels in Illithid Savant and then eat the brain of another Beholder Mage.

Azernak0
2010-05-31, 10:05 PM
Illithid are awesome. They eat brains! They are like a zombie Uri Geller.

Draz74
2010-05-31, 10:05 PM
See also: Pun-Pun as the BBEG. At that point, why not?:smallconfused:

I was going to say "because Mind-Flayers are inherently more badass than kobolds," but then I realized that Pun-Pun can just give himself an ability like


[Ex] More Badass Than A Mind-Flayer
You are more badass than a mind-flayer.

Which then leads to questions arguments on how far Manipulate Form can reach into the metagame.

EDIT: btw, on-topic, my vote goes to "Beholder." They are more alien and thus it takes more work to explain their motivations credibly, but they are just cooler. And more capable of taking on a whole party as a solo encounter.

DragoonWraith
2010-05-31, 10:12 PM
The answer to any question put to Manipulate Form is always Yes, with the sole exceptions of those questions to which the affirmative answer would imply any kind of limitation on Manipulate Form's abilities beyond not being usable on Sarrukhs.

Anyway, I like Illithids much more, I think they're cooler, scarier, etc. But Beholder Mage is the Beholder Mage. It wins, unless against Pun-Pun.

DaDude9211
2010-05-31, 10:24 PM
Well if it's level 20, bump the Illithid up to an Ulitharid. 8 levels of Illithid Savant or if you perfer, templates. Phrenic Creature comes to mind.

Beholders have action economy and stuff, so they can generally be optimized to be more powerful, but they're just not as good BBEG material for various reasons mentioned so far.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-31, 10:48 PM
Has anyone ever used a beholder mage against actual players before? What happened? I'm interested in hearing any stories.

Mastikator
2010-05-31, 11:15 PM
An illithid psion telepath would make one heck of a dominator, the DC would be incredibly high since psionic dominate DC increases with augmentation, and illithids have massive int bonus.
Use domination on the warriors of the party and force them to attack the others. Sure, they get extra saves, which they probably can't make either.
In fact, an illithid telepath 20 can augment dominate to target 3 humanoids.

OldTrees
2010-05-31, 11:24 PM
An Illithid city is IMHO a better opponent than a lone Elder Orb.

I would use the CR 16 Elder Brain with Ulithid and Illithid Savant minions to increase the CR to 20.

Krüsher
2010-05-31, 11:31 PM
Illithids all the way man! They are the ultimate badass puppetmasters. Have we forgotten that they used to enslave ENTIRE RACES? Githyanki and Githzerai anyone? This campaign could be transformed to be another world domination thing! well...just putting that out there i guess

Gorgondantess
2010-05-31, 11:50 PM
Illithids just look a bit like Cthulhu. That's the extent of their bastardy. :smallsigh:

AND THAT IS ALL THE BASTARDY YOU'LL EVER NEED.:smallfurious:

Really, truly, illithids win on every count. Let's go through the motions.

Mechanically:
Beholders have all their action economy breaking crap, yeah, great. They disintegrate you or turn you to stone or whatever. Great one-shot encounter, terrible BBEG. Sure, they have charm monster, but it's not their focus. Illithids, on the other hand... their abilities SCREAM mastermind. If you go for the SLA illithid, you have charm monster and suggestion. 'Nuff said. Plane shift also allows it to be more effectively a recurring villain, as opposed to a battle. He can be anywhere. The psionic illithid is even better: as a 9th level telepath, they have dominate. 'Nuff said2.
So, do you want your villain to break action economy with save-or-dies, or use mind tricks and thralls? If the former...:smallsigh:

Appearance: Well, I've already gone over why illithids are better, but other than that, I've always found that beholders look just like a random, kinda cool monster. As for illithids, though, they are humanoid. Now, some might be turned off by this... but I think it makes them all the better. If it's humanoid, you feel you can relate to it... which makes it all the more shocking when presented with the illithid's alien mindset and habits.

As for fluff, well... honestly, that's all up to the DM. At its core, either they're brain eating scholars, or they're... floating subterranean eye guys? Honestly, I don't even know what beholders do.:smallconfused:

The Glyphstone
2010-05-31, 11:52 PM
Illithids all the way man! They are the ultimate badass puppetmasters. Have we forgotten that they used to enslave ENTIRE RACES? Githyanki and Githzerai anyone? This campaign could be transformed to be another world domination thing! well...just putting that out there i guess

Yeah, but they're squishy. Illithids are great for the 'oh gods, even if we win we're screwed later and probably turned into mindless thralls' sort of existential terror, but a squid-faced humanoid in robes doesn't carry the same sort of visceral 'OH CRAP' instantaneous terror that seeing a howling, frothing beholder charging at you with eye rays firing in all directions can bring. And they're both just complicated methods of suicide if you try to go after them on their home ground.

I'm still in favor of the beholder as Dragon, Illithid as BBEG Mastermind idea. But for the original question, which is more badass, beholders still win out.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-31, 11:53 PM
As for fluff, well... honestly, that's all up to the DM. At its core, either they're brain eating scholars, or they're... floating subterranean eye guys? Honestly, I don't even know what beholders do.:smallconfused:


According to Lords of Madness, beholders spend time eating, looking at magic things, killing stuff that they don't like, and tolerating charmed minions to fawn over it until they get bored/hungry, then eating the minions.

ninjaneer003
2010-05-31, 11:54 PM
Beholder
much more badass in my opinion, it can do a little of anything and can screw with everyone in some way

CockroachTeaParty
2010-05-31, 11:55 PM
Oh, and for the record: Aboleths are cooler than beholders and illithids. :smallwink:

The Glyphstone
2010-05-31, 11:55 PM
According to Lords of Madness, beholders spend time eating, looking at magic things, killing stuff that they don't like, and tolerating charmed minions to fawn over it until they get bored/hungry, then eating the minions.

Oh, and don't forget occasionally becoming spontaneously pregnant, puking out a fleshy sac full of beholder babies, then eating all of them except the one that looks most like itself who instead is driven away to fend for itself alone.

Eldan
2010-06-01, 03:18 AM
On the other hand, one is solitary and insane, the other has a time-traveling space empire. I know which I prefer.

But for pure combat power? Probably the Beholder, unless you are good at optimizing psions.

Ossian
2010-06-01, 03:45 AM
You should go beholder? Why? Because an illithid will stroke his tentacled goatee and join fingertips while pondering over how evil overlordly he is, which is really really cool, but a Beholder can go "serial killer genius" on the players.

He does not go on an all-out world takeover, but he could pull a "Saw I through IV" without effort. He'll be feeding his own paranoia maniacally scrying the town of the helpless meat-bags he is bent on killing, as well as his own dungeon, where he will gleefully float from torture chamber to torture chamber. A beholder can be as genius and dangerous as an illithid, only with a much more gory and splatter flavor to it, which you already know it is just what you want.

Now, Nekojoker, what became of your lambs?

PS
It is a giant floating eye with huge maws...just saying...

hamishspence
2010-06-01, 05:04 AM
There are exceptions to the "beholders are solitary" general rule- entire cities of beholders in the Underdark, led by Hive Mothers.

Bharg
2010-06-01, 06:17 AM
I like the illithid's cthulhu like otherworldlyness more than the pure aggressiveness of the beholders.

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 08:35 AM
Psionic Illithid, all the way.

And from the undead side, Alhoons >>> Death Tyrants.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-01, 08:38 AM
Psionic Illithid, all the way.

And from the undead side, Alhoons >>> Death Tyrants.

Well, duh. Liches > Zombies.

Deth Muncher
2010-06-01, 08:41 AM
Me, I like Gas Spores (http://www.toplessrobot.com/gas%20spore.jpg). :smallcool:

Amphetryon
2010-06-01, 08:47 AM
Alhoon Beholder Mage Cerebramancer. :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2010-06-01, 08:49 AM
Alhoon Beholder Mage Cerebramancer. :smallbiggrin:

Well, an Illithid who has to permanently PAO himself into a Beholder to gain power isn't making a terribly great argument for the natural superiority of illithids. :smallbiggrin:

Zanticor
2010-06-01, 09:10 AM
Aboleth are the ultimate aberration. They just have it all. If there ever is a level 20 fight between a mind flayer and a beholder, be sure an aboleth had a hand in it and that he planned it for a hundred years just as an experiment for some completely different purpose. That being said we all know the elder brains win in the end because thats part of what they are (being send back from the future and all). It just isn't explained why the aboleth planned for the elder brains to come together. Be sure mind flayer domination is part of their masterplan dating back from before the universe was created.

Zanticor

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-01, 09:12 AM
Yeah, aboleths! Spread the love! Spread the slime! Spread the madness. Tekeli-li, comrades. Tekeli-li.

Aeolius
2010-06-01, 09:33 AM
The choice I'd have to make is actually between Aboleth and Illithid, but if you've already ruled the Aboleth out, then the Illithid is the way to go.


Aboleth don't make great villains unless you've planned an aquatic campaign though. Beholders (and illithids) can be used anywhere abovewater, which tends to be larger portions of most game worlds.

For subaqueous games, one can always use the eye-of-the-deep for one's beholder fix. I added sea flayers, a mix of illithid and blue-ring octopus, for my undersea mind flayer envoy.

So, I suppose if the question is beholder or illithid, I choose... kraken ;)

Tinydwarfman
2010-06-01, 10:13 AM
Oh come one. Eat your brain and steal your memories and powers? Illithid Savant all the way. There is no better BBEG. Like others have said, a Beholder is a great Dragon, but Illithids are the ultimate in evil masterminds.

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 11:29 AM
I say Mindwitnesses (Beholder/Illithid hybrids) are the true kings. Think about an Death Tyrant Mindwitness Elder Brain (he's a Death Tyrant with Half-Illithid Template, making him an Elder Brain)

SaintRidley
2010-06-01, 11:38 AM
I say Mindwitnesses (Beholder/Illithid hybrids) are the true kings. Think about an Death Tyrant Mindwitness Elder Brain (he's a Death Tyrant with Half-Illithid Template, making him an Elder Brain)

That's not an Elder Brain...

Froogleyboy
2010-06-01, 11:48 AM
I love Beholders, my players love them as well, but Illithids are the bomb. My players pissed off an Illithid in the first session, and he's been messing with their head the entire game :)

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 01:14 PM
That's not an Elder Brain...

That's how it looked in my head! Don't Judge Me!

Siegel
2010-06-01, 02:54 PM
Aboleth don't make great villains unless you've planned an aquatic campaign though.


I don't understand this. An Aboleth can take control on half-aquatic creatures that take control on landcreatures. Why should the PCs fight the BBEG in an environment that favors them.

I love the fact that the PCs have to find a way to get underwater and fight there.

Koboldshroud
2010-06-01, 03:39 PM
the answer is simple... A beholder is a big floating face with lotsa eye balls that have magical powers -do i hear krickets chirpping?- The ilithis on the other hand is a non sickly version of darth vader who eats brains. -do i hear a loud applaud?- if you have not figured out by using my post what my opinion is.. You dont deserve to know

Tiki Snakes
2010-06-01, 07:50 PM
Beholders are essentially solitary, they lack the capability to really build anything and are argueably so mad that they could hold a conversation with a Slaad.

Illithids, on the other hand, are quite capable of teamwork, have constructed terrible, biomechanical citedaels across the underdark and are capable of forming any kind of creditable threat to anything larger than an adventuring party.

Sure, Beholders are intimidating, but they aren't Boss types, they're just monsters.

Gnorman
2010-06-01, 10:12 PM
Aboleth are the ultimate aberration. They just have it all. If there ever is a level 20 fight between a mind flayer and a beholder, be sure an aboleth had a hand in it and that he planned it for a hundred years just as an experiment for some completely different purpose. That being said we all know the elder brains win in the end because thats part of what they are (being send back from the future and all). It just isn't explained why the aboleth planned for the elder brains to come together. Be sure mind flayer domination is part of their masterplan dating back from before the universe was created.

Zanticor

But aboleths have no memory of the illithid! That's why the illithid frighten them.

And if you can frighten an aboleth, you're pretty friggin' scary.

For Valor
2010-06-01, 10:22 PM
Aboleth don't make great villains unless you've planned an aquatic campaign though. Beholders (and illithids) can be used anywhere abovewater, which tends to be larger portions of most game worlds.

Aboleths are useful in aboveground campaigns for the specific reason that they are water-dwellers. Not only do they live in caves, they live in hidden water-filled caves under continents. Either that, or they inhabit giant parts of major oceans. They know the secrets of everything because they get all their ancestors' memories, so they're usually accompanied by ridiculously powerful magic items and incredible artifacts. They also (if you really wanna be ridiculous) should get free class levels in psychic powers because those are all passed down. I mean, a 2nd generation of Aboleths have an ECL 30, and they've been alive for ages. There's also no one to disturb them since they live in underwater caves, so they can cultivate plans forever.

Aboleth = Best Major Villain.

Ever.

EDIT: I also completely forgot about Beholder Mage. But I hate that class anyways.

SaintRidley
2010-06-01, 11:08 PM
How about this?

A Mindwitness Beholder Mage/Illithid Savant that preys on Aboleths.

For Valor
2010-06-01, 11:14 PM
How about this?

A Mindwitness Beholder Mage/Illithid Savant that preys on Aboleths.

Or we could use the Advanced Bestiary to combine the Aboleth and Illithid, and then make the new creature into a charger with a Beholder for a mount.

Pronounceable
2010-06-01, 11:37 PM
Or we could use the Advanced Bestiary to combine the Aboleth and Illithid, and then make the new creature into a charger with a Beholder for a mount.
Mmmm. Beholder riding illithids.

NekoJoker
2010-06-01, 11:47 PM
Mmmm. Beholder riding illithids.

An uber charger that will kill you...
with his brain

...

And then EAT YOUR brain.

For Valor
2010-06-02, 12:52 AM
Famous Monster Manual quote--

"Step 4: Eat Brains."

guess where it's from?

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-02, 01:04 AM
Once upon a time, Beholders were the major menace... in SpellJammer. :smallbiggrin:

Machiavellian
2010-06-02, 11:42 AM
How about this?

A Mindwitness Beholder Mage/Illithid Savant that preys on Aboleths.

Heck Yeah! Used one for a Deity once! Though he also had 10 levels in Cerebremancer

Morph Bark
2010-06-02, 11:48 AM
An Illithid that uses a Beholder as a mount.

Alternatively, I remember once seeing a hybrid of these two monsters in an official book. Can't recall the name though... neither of the monster nor the book.

EDIT: Nevermind, the latter was already mentioned.

Lord Vukodlak
2010-06-02, 02:07 PM
Mind Blank also shuts down Mind Flayers pretty hard. Mind Blank and Freedom of Movement and you've won half the battle.

You have to get more creative with beholders. Ray deflection, Invoke Magic, AMF... you've got some options.

With beholders all you need is Ray Deflection and a range weapon. You've practically won. That is way easier to accomplish then mindblank and freedom of movement.

Now a tower shield provides you total cover blocking the emanation of the antimagic cone, while you must give up all your attacks to do so, you can still take a move action. But the eyeball is flying right? well because the tower shield blocks the antimagic cone's emanation, drink a potion of fly then go up and get behind the beholder.

And if your talking the psionic variant of Mindflayers they become high level manifesters and can remove your protections. Nothing like a quickened dispeling to remove your mindblanks before dominating all of you. When you first start encountering Mind Flayer's you won't have access to mindblank and freedom of movement would only be on one or two party members.

For Valor
2010-06-02, 06:24 PM
With beholders all you need is Ray Deflection and a range weapon. You've practically won. That is way easier to accomplish then mindblank and freedom of movement.

Now a tower shield provides you total cover blocking the emanation of the antimagic cone, while you must give up all your attacks to do so, you can still take a move action. But the eyeball is flying right? well because the tower shield blocks the antimagic cone's emanation, drink a potion of fly then go up and get behind the beholder.

And if your talking the psionic variant of Mindflayers they become high level manifesters and can remove your protections. Nothing like a quickened dispeling to remove your mindblanks before dominating all of you. When you first start encountering Mind Flayer's you won't have access to mindblank and freedom of movement would only be on one or two party members.

-*glances over post*-

That sounds creative!

VirOath
2010-06-02, 08:06 PM
Because I have to toss this in here, Blackguard Illithid with a Psionic Beholder as his mount. Add levels and flare as needed.

Wings of Peace
2010-06-02, 08:28 PM
Depends on the level and the goals. Rp side I always imagined Illithids as being more organized and enigmaticly evil. Power wise depending on level and build it varies. Beholder Mage is easier to optimize but wicked things can be done with a high level Illithid Savant.

SaintRidley
2010-06-02, 10:21 PM
This thread has inspired me to make use of all of Lords of Madness for a campaign.

Mindwitness Hive Mothers? An Ulitharid death squad riding Aboleths through the deeps?

Have I lost my mind?

Krüsher
2010-06-02, 10:22 PM
Oh, and don't forget occasionally becoming spontaneously pregnant, puking out a fleshy sac full of beholder babies, then eating all of them except the one that looks most like itself who instead is driven away to fend for itself alone.

interesting. Is there any way you could maybe catch one of these babies and sell them to an evil illithid? Ya actually I like your idea of the Beholder being the dragon of the castle

The Glyphstone
2010-06-02, 10:56 PM
interesting. Is there any way you could maybe catch one of these babies and sell them to an evil illithid? Ya actually I like your idea of the Beholder being the dragon of the castle

If you somehow managed to capture and contain a pregnant Beholder...

The Shadowmind
2010-06-02, 11:02 PM
If you somehow managed to capture and contain a pregnant Beholder...

Isn't it easier to try to capture and contain any Behold, and wait for the process to naturally occur? Or, have it confined with a friendly dragon for long enough, they can mate with any creature.

Skeppio
2010-06-03, 12:18 AM
Personally, I prefer Beholders, although both are cool. Beholders kae better in-your-face villians wheras Mind Flayers make better behind-the-scenes villians in my opinion.

Do the Beholders remind anyone else of the Daleks, or is it just me?

Eldan
2010-06-03, 02:14 AM
They look a little similar, yes. But the mentality is different. Well, except that they both want to kill all things different from them.

For Valor
2010-06-08, 12:21 AM
They look a little similar, yes. But the mentality is different. Well, except that they both want to kill all things different from them.

including members of their own species...

Lhurgyof
2010-06-20, 01:32 AM
alright, so there are two ways to think about this:

1) Mechanically: What would be a better challenge for the PC's? Honestly, the Beholder's eye rays and whatnot would be very little of a hassle, as the PC's saves would be high (at Level 20) at the Beholder's DC's would be rather low (meant for level 13). Also, the beholder would be taking 7 levels in a class to matchup to CR 20. What class does a Beholder take? Wizard. Basically, the PC's will be facing a 7th level Wizard with a scary antimagic cone and some blasting powers. Not very intimidating to your average party of 20th level chars.

The Illithid also doesn't have many impactful physical abilities to use on the PC's (it might get lucky with a Mind Blast), but it will have 12 levels of a class. For an illithid, that means Psion (or Erudite). And 12 levels of that is far more intimidating than 7 levels of anything else.

2) Badassery: Beholders are xenophobic and always hate each other. They carve out secluded lairs and usually live alone forever. Chances of a Beholder leading a big takeover of the world are next to 0.

Illithids are freaking amazing. They live in a city with an elder brain that contains the brains of all their dead ancestors. They know the secrets to everything, and they're constantly searching for more power. Illithids form inquisitions and cults to figure out dark secrets, and they're well-known for being HELLA power-hungry. They make a lot more sense to use...

The choice I'd have to make is actually between Aboleth and Illithid, but if you've already ruled the Aboleth out, then the Illithid is the way to go.

It's called beholder mage. Summon Monster VII, Summon Monster VI, Summon Monster V, Summon Monster IV, Lightning Bolt (or Fireball, whichever would be better in the situation), Summon Monster II, Magic Missile, plus 3 disintegrates. ALL IN ONE ROUND. Can a whimpy psion do that in one round? I think not. Just mix up the spell list for your needs, but that provides a nice wall for the beholder to prepare his next move. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of spells and being a spontaneous caster. Nasty.
Now, the illithid savant? It really needs outside sources to become powerful and it's all dependent on what he did beforehand. As a DM, you could just make up some stupid **** and give him crazy abilities, but the beholder doesn't need to go around devouring brains to be powerful. He's quite happy with using your lifeless statue to decorate his home.
Plus, as a high level monster, he's bound to happen upon or create something to up his int and cha, thus making his DCs not suck.
Now, bad-assedry? Illithids are like cthulhu and that makes them a little cool, but at the same time kidna knock-offy. Beholders are something pretty new, and are feared in general by players. I mean, even newbies would come to fear a giant flying eyeball with eyestalks that shoot rays out of them, as opposed to the slim human with an octopus head.

The beholder can easily wipe out a party not prepared to fight a beholder. So I would give the cup to the beholder.

Gnorman
2010-06-20, 06:30 AM
THOON IS THOON, AND THOON IS ALL!

'nuff said.

JeminiZero
2010-06-20, 07:09 AM
It's called beholder mage. Summon Monster VII, Summon Monster VI, Summon Monster V, Summon Monster IV, Lightning Bolt (or Fireball, whichever would be better in the situation), Summon Monster II, Magic Missile, plus 3 disintegrates. ALL IN ONE ROUND. Can a whimpy psion do that in one round?

A Psion who has set up Fission/Schism/Twinned Synchronicity (Hustle/Psionic Meditation to recover focus) can crank out 8 powers each round. A Psion wlling to resort to Affinity Field Synchronicity Abuse can in effect take infinite actions in one round.


I mean, even newbies would come to fear a giant flying eyeball with eyestalks that shoot rays out of them, as opposed to the slim human with an octopus head.

Perhaps, but newbies might also think that fighters are a strong class and a wizard is supposed to hurl fireballs. A better measure of badassery would be who the veterans are afraid of.

Octopus Jack
2010-06-20, 07:39 AM
Where is the Grell love? :smallbiggrin:

But between Beholders and Illithids its a hard contest, Illithids can work together, plan and plot. Beholders are psychopaths who resemble giant floating eyes. Giant floating eyes vs Cthulhu, it's actually pretty hard to call. I love them both! In fact, I love pretty much all Aberrations! You should join me and worship our rightful masters!

Dracons
2010-06-20, 10:48 AM
NOTE: I haven't read all pages, I have to go soon and I know I'll forget what I wanna write by time I get back.


Ether or would rock. Beholder as the dragon would be awesome with the Illithid as final boss.

But just make sure the final battle ground is on beholder's turf. I remember reading a dungeon issue where the beholder lived ion an area with lots of trap doors he could use to make pcs fall into vats of acid. (Have each pit have a tube with a center dispel magic on it to dispel any magic the pc's have when they fall into the vats of acid or whatnot below you. (or spikes), or solid ground to turn into mush for the beholder to enjoy.

Zombieboots
2010-06-20, 10:57 AM
Aboleth, Psionic. It will cave in you're players MINDS!

But since that isn't in your list and you need some sorta CR 20 go with the Suped up Illithid, an Ultralithid with Class level! (Lords of Maddness) preferably a psionic version

Over all Mindflayers: They just extrude that "Evil Villain Vibe."

Edit: Oooh! Too true.

FOR THOON!

The Glyphstone
2010-06-20, 11:13 AM
Perhaps, but newbies might also think that fighters are a strong class and a wizard is supposed to hurl fireballs. A better measure of badassery would be who the veterans are afraid of.

So....neither?:smallconfused:

Danin
2010-06-20, 04:56 PM
I am surprised at all the beholder supporters. Illithid just screams BBEG to me while a beholder might be the eccentric pet they keep around and feed bodies freshly divested of their brain matter too. Now, a hive of beholders would be a truly frightening sight, but really, mind flayers have cities. If it weren't for the elder brains keeping them down they would rule the world.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-20, 05:05 PM
I am surprised at all the beholder supporters. Illithid just screams BBEG to me while a beholder might be the eccentric pet they keep around and feed bodies freshly divested of their brain matter too. Now, a hive of beholders would be a truly frightening sight, but really, mind flayers have cities. If it weren't for the elder brains keeping them down they would rule the world.

Without the Elder Brains there wouldn't be Illithid cities. The only thing keeping them in check from turning on each other and betraying one another is the authority of the Brains, their whole society would fragment without them.

Octopus Jack
2010-06-20, 05:13 PM
Without the Elder Brains there wouldn't be Illithid cities. The only thing keeping them in check from turning on each other and betraying one another is the authority of the Brains, their whole society would fragment without them.

Then the world would belong to the Grell! :smallbiggrin: The true masters of the universe!

Danin
2010-06-20, 07:51 PM
Without the Elder Brains there wouldn't be Illithid cities. The only thing keeping them in check from turning on each other and betraying one another is the authority of the Brains, their whole society would fragment without them.

That's what the brains want you to think! Its all a giant cover up. They've so thoroughly ingrained themselves in illithid society that they are believed to be integral to their survival! Nothing could be further from the truth! Don't believe the lies!


The truth is out there...

Greymane
2010-06-20, 08:04 PM
I am surprised at all the beholder supporters. Illithid just screams BBEG to me while a beholder might be the eccentric pet they keep around and feed bodies freshly divested of their brain matter too. Now, a hive of beholders would be a truly frightening sight, but really, mind flayers have cities. If it weren't for the elder brains keeping them down they would rule the world.

Wait, what? Are you saying that Elder Brains are The Man? :smalltongue:

jumpet
2010-06-20, 08:05 PM
A race based on Cthulu gets my vote. They've got style and crunch to back them up.

Beholders are a mechanical failure, and look stupid to.

The-Mage-King
2010-06-20, 08:08 PM
Hm... giant floating heads that basically have a "magic on/magic off" light as their main feature...

Or time traveling brain eating aliens from the future... With psychic powers...





'flayers.

Zombieboots
2010-06-20, 08:14 PM
Then the world would belong to the Grell! :smallbiggrin: The true masters of the universe!
Aboleths shall rule over all, after the chaos, you beak loving freak! =P

Lhurgyof
2010-06-20, 08:48 PM
Then the world would belong to the Grell! :smallbiggrin: The true masters of the universe!

Hmm, I'd have to side with Psurlons. Noting that all the resources on Psurlons I have at the moment are the MMII and the AD&D Dark Sun monster manual. I mean, ****ing dominate on such a low challenge rating monster. The can do stone skin, and they have much more bad-assedry than either the illithid or beholder.

And organization? They tried to link their WHOLE race up telepathically, which ended up in a psionic rip in the future, sending them back in the past (to Dark Sun). Plus, just freakin' look at them! (and I mean the AD&D look, those are ****in' bad ass)

http://www.iwozhere.com/SRD/images/88268_620_102.jpg

(I could only find the MMII picture, alas)


A Psion who has set up Fission/Schism/Twinned Synchronicity (Hustle/Psionic Meditation to recover focus) can crank out 8 powers each round. A Psion wlling to resort to Affinity Field Synchronicity Abuse can in effect take infinite actions in one round.

So basically, we're having a level 20 party fight:
A) Pun Pun; or
B) An actual encounter.
Hmmm, which is most fitting for the 20th level encounter?

Yes, indeed illithids can be silly. But basically, to make them powerful you either need to use their racial prestige class and use your DM BS (How in the **** would an illithid savant end up eating a level 20 character's brain? Much less another illithid savant's brain? "Oh hey, a level 20 mon-"*quiverin palm*)
Or, you need to abuse the rules.

For beholders, it's all laid out in front of them. Beholder Mage, multiple spells in a round AND eye rays. they don't really need much added on stuff, or searching around. They're much more powerful straightforward and on their own.

Each side brings up great points, but I'd go with the beholder if it's just Beholders v. Illithids.

Danin
2010-06-20, 08:56 PM
Wait, what? Are you saying that Elder Brains are The Man? :smalltongue:

That, I'm afraid, is exactly what I'm saying.

Argument shamelessly ripped from someone who is far more articulate than I and possessed of much more free time.

So, this thread has got me thinking about, well, a lot of unrelated junk mostly.

But it's also got me considering Mindflayer related Character Ideas and Plot Hooks/Campaigns.

So, here are some things that have struck me throughout this debate.

1) Elder Brains are unquestionably and significantly evil. It's quite possible that they are more significantly evil, even in the opinions of those who have posted condeming the Illithids in general. They are Big Bad Brains.

2) Illithids may not necessarily, depending on interpretations of wording, and which splat-books you consider canon, need to eat sentient brains to live. Depending on what you listen to, they may not even need to eat brains!

3) They are 'wrong' on a cosmic level. Either they originate in the Far Realm, the Far Future, or are in some other way just damn wrong. (In addition, they freak the Aboleth's out on account of being the one creature they don't remember 'starting'. They just appeared, fully formed, as if from no-where.)

4) Illithids reproduce via their (original?) Larval form. The Larvae are left in the Elder Brain's Briny Bath for 10 entire years, and if they are one of the (probably few) who are not eaten by the elder brain then they are implanted in a sentient creature, preferably humanoid. If the 'Far Realm' origin is the true one, likely this form is carried over from their previous, insane-outside-realm origin.

5) Elder Brains completely and utterly dominate Illithid society. They enforce strict rules of conduct and whatever that create the 'classic' mindflayer society. They also have no compunction about lying to their illithid underlings. (Illithid's are unaware that once 'joined' with the Elder Brain, their personality DOES NOT continue. The Elder Brains jealously guard this secret, for quite obvious reasons).

6) Illithids do not go against the Elder Brain very often, if at all. Alhoon's (Illithid Liches) are about the only case of this. This is possibly due to the Elder Brain's psionic aura/dominance. The Illithid are so used to this ever-present psychic presence, or 'buzz', that when they have to be away from it, there exist items to reproduce the same sensation!

7) Illithids express a very limited range of emotions, but very strongly. However, despite being essentially rage-filled engines of spite and loathing, they have a natural tendancy to work together.

8) Depending on your sources, the Illithids once ruled a Vast multi-planar Empire. They were successful enough as a society to not only conquer a planet, but many planets across the entire multiverse. Though impressively enduring, at some point, something went wrong. Perhaps the Githyanki/Githerazi rebelion? Perhaps something that allowed the rebellion...


And all of this is just getting me thinking, suggesting things and Ideas that aren't even fully formed yet, but here's some;
(Spoilered for length)
Elder Brains do not feel right. They just don't. They're an Iconic part of Mindflayer society, but they just don't feel like they are entirely playing for the same team.
The illithid tadpoles - Ten years in the Elder Brains tank? That's a long time. Frankly, suspiciously long. I cannot believe that they are left there purely because of how defended the location is. I do not believe that the Brain is looking out for them. It snacks on them at will! So what else could be the reason? The only one that makes sense to me, for a psionic being of 'Godlike' Intelligence, is that it is indoctrinating them, psionically, over a long period of time so that it is both subtle and enduring.
So, why would it do this, if it is merely the collective conciousness of Illithid Ancestors? It just feels wrong.

Speaking of wrong, is it only me that has difficulty with the idea that the Elder Brains are a natural part of the Illithid life-cycle? I'd agree that's a view that the Brains themselves would no doubt hope the illithid held, but i'm not convinced. The Illithid, originally, were some kind of far realm creature that started in something analgous to their larval form. Perhaps they were essentially parasitic, perhaps not. There is still a kind of logic there. They live, quite probably hunt, (which would fit on some level with their essentially predatory mindset, and their tendancy to co-operate). They live, they thrive, and then? Everything dies. But why would a creature that see's brains as a source of Food, create an 'ancestor god' of sorts that is, itself, essentially a giant foodstuff? it doesn't fit. I propose that the Elder Brain must have been a later development. A matter for civilised times in their development, not the impossible primal past.

And Furthermore, I propose that they were one of two possible things.

First Option
At the height of their eternal empire of the planes, Illithid society must have gotten pretty damned decadent. I see the idea of Powerful Illithid 'Emperors', having conquered pretty much everything and everyone they could find, as then turning their attention to that last enemy, the one that all things must face. Death. The 'Elder Brain', would at it's core, be an attempt to cheat Death. A way for those few, ancient evils, to exist, and rule on till the end of time. just so long as their subjects can be convinced to continue feeding them with what they require.

To hold on to their position of god-kings of the Illithids, they make themselves part of the life-cycle of the Illithids, they make themselves ancestor gods, they deify themselves and make life without them unthinkable. Then, just to make sure? They literally crawl inside the brain of every new-spawned Illithid and quite literally worm out any possible hint or desire to even consider that possibility.

They have two or three main problems. Firstly, Illithids are powerful, essentially arrogant creatures. They sound on so many levels like the kind of 'Magnificent Bastard' types that they should be staging coup-de-etat's every couple of years. If the Elder Brain's Subjects ever really found out the unspeakable truth, their situation would become very...very dangerous.

Secondly, they are not Liches. They aren't even Undead. They can, if cared for properly, live forever. But they are bodiless monstrosities, soft, vulnerable. They need constant care and endlessly vigilant protection. A creature, no matter how powerful, that doesn't even have skin, is going to get a bit paranoid, really, don't you think? It would help make sense of the Elder Brain's Aversion to Illithid Liches, perhaps.

If something did go wrong with Mindflayer Society, wouldn't it make sense that the emergence of these self-proclaimed 'god kings' could have been the cause? An initial uprising of Illithids, or even just the inevitable lapses of quality of judgement that would arise from a lack of fresh blood, fresh ideas, at the head of their empire.

In the instability that followed, it would make any slave-uprising that much more likely both to happen, and to succeed.


The Second Option for their origin is that the Elder Brains come from an external source.
They are not, perhaps, Illithid in nature at all.
Think about it for a moment. They certainly do not act like they are part of Illithid Society. They do not, really, act like they have Illithid wellbeing as their main concern. They act, rather, like they are either the Slave-masters to the Illithid, or the Cookoo children of. They dominate, they stifle and rule absolutely, with a tenuous thread of lies and misdirection as their only protection.

What cosmic horror would be capable of infiltrating and subverting Illithid Society at it's height, so completely? So Utterly? it's an intruiging question, you've got to admit. Like the previous possibility, this event would make a perfectly disruptive calamity in the Mindflayer Empire to destablise it enough for the Rebelion to succeed.

So, Character Concept, and/or Adventure Hooks?
Imagine the consequences of revealing either of the above possibilities, (or even those few facts as we know are definite already) to Mindflayer Society. I do not see the 'masters of the universe' reacting very well to the idea that, far from joining an ancestral hive-mind with their memory and personality in tact, they essentially merely become food, with any kind of decorum or philosophical moderation.

Imagine, perhaps, that the revelation is given to a mindflayer (Or, for instant mindflayer adventuring party, a mindflayer inquisition...) whilst on an errand for their elder-brain outside of it's influence. Just imagine, for a moment.

I cannot see them reaching any decision other than for the pressing and complete need to return to their lair, set the Elder Brain's plans to the torch and feast on it's treacherous (Yet delicious!) brainy mass. Cue a campaign of mindflayer-on-mindflayer guerrilla terrorism, sedition, and outright assault culminating in them storming their own lair, kicking their own doors down, and eating their own hideous god.

Food for thought.

Zaq
2010-06-20, 10:22 PM
I've gotta throw my lot in with the Aboleths as well, though between Beholders and Illithids, I'm going to go with the Illithids.

I have a hard time seeing Beholders as anything other than a [semi-] random encounter. They're terrifying, they're destructive, and they're just a flash in the pan. You might find a spot that one has declared to be its territory (which it will fight to protect), or you might hear about one that's gone on a rampage, but you can't set a campaign or even a major arc around it. Beholders have, for better or for worse, absolutely zero subtlety. It's nice to see some variety in monster types, it's true, and not everything that's scary and powerful has to be all about the crazy-ass plots within plots, but the fact remains that you can't do much with a Beholder besides HAY GUYZ THERE'S A BEHOLDER KILLING US AAAARGH. (If you DID find some reason to make them... well, not rampaging paranoid death machines, maybe even have one willing to TALK to the players, now THAT would be scary... but I'm mostly going with the established fluff, primarily from LoM.)

Illithids are the opposite. You can totally have an Illithid-centered campaign without even trying. Thoon is cool, non-Thoon is cool. You can have everything tie into the whole with them, and they're a lot more... insidious. You don't worry about a Beholder. You fear them if you see them, yes, but you don't worry about them. Illithids? You worry about Illithids. Even if you have a climactic battle in which you smash the Elder Brain, you can never be certain that you got them all... or that there isn't more to the story.

Plus, Illithids have the whole psychological horror aspect to them. Being dominated and used as a thrall until you become useless and your brain is eaten is friggin' terrifying prospect. A Beholder will just zap you and then eat you. An Illithid has a good old-fashioned Fate Worse Than Death in store.

JeminiZero
2010-06-20, 10:31 PM
So basically, we're having a level 20 party fight:
A) Pun Pun; or
B) An actual encounter.
Hmmm, which is most fitting for the 20th level encounter?


You seem to be ignoring my first example, which is still a more appropriate encounter than a Beholder Mage (for a party of average optimization at any rate). Anyway, all I'm saying is that in terms of actions per round, Psions (not necessarily an Illithid, just Psions in general) aren't the slackers you seem to think they are*.

*My original calculations were a bit off. To hit the full 8 actions per round, a Psion also needs Metamorphosis/Assume Supernatural or Greater Metamorph and Choker form, on top of Fission/Schism/Twinned Sync/Hustle.


Yes, indeed illithids can be silly. But basically, to make them powerful you either need to use their racial prestige class and use your DM BS

No you don't. Illithids can keep taking levels in Psion/Erudite/Sorcerer/appropriate PrCs, turning them into as great a threat as anything else with those base classes.

Also, as widely noted, Illithids can plan and organize. When you go up against an illithid, you are not fighting a lone man with an octopus head (with one of the above base classes). There will be an army of minions in the way, and thats assuming you reach his lair before his assassin death squads silence you in the night. :smallwink:


(How in the **** would an illithid savant end up eating a level 20 character's brain? Much less another illithid savant's brain? "Oh hey, a level 20 mon-"*quiverin palm*)

How would something that has theoretically unlimited power, defeat a level 20 character?

Seriously? The most obvious way is to eat their way to the top. E.g. start by eating a bunch of level 10 characters, gain their powers, then eat a bunch of level 11 characters, gain their powers, and so on and so forth. By the time they start facing level 20s they will be more capable of swallowing their tasty tasty brains. :smallbiggrin:

The link in my sig might also interest you, it demonstrates how a mid level illithid cabal can create abomination (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Abomination) slaying super soldiers.


Or, you need to abuse the rules.

Right. So giving Beholders levels in a PrC that is widely acknowledged to be broken is not an abuse of the rules.


For beholders, it's all laid out in front of them. Beholder Mage, multiple spells in a round AND eye rays. they don't really need much added on stuff, or searching around. They're much more powerful straightforward and on their own.

In the grand scheme of badassery, maximum power attainable tends to be more important than how simple it is to attain said power. In fact, there seems to be an inverse correlation between badassery and simplicity (for optimizers around here anyway) I.e. The more complicated the plan, the more badass it is seen to be.

Lhurgyof
2010-06-20, 10:57 PM
You seem to be ignoring my first example, which is still a more appropriate encounter than a Beholder Mage (for a party of average optimization at any rate). Anyway, all I'm saying is that in terms of actions per round, Psions (not necessarily an Illithid, just Psions in general) aren't the slackers you seem to think they are*.

*My original calculations were a bit off. To hit the full 8 actions per round, a Psion also needs Metamorphosis/Assume Supernatural or Greater Metamorph and Choker form, on top of Fission/Schism/Twinned Sync/Hustle.
Ok, yes I agree that psions are quite over-powered with you. But, couldn't a beholder just give up his racial hit dice and take the same psionic levels? Blech, it don't matter, really.



Also, as widely noted, Illithids can plan and organize. When you go up against an illithid, you are not fighting a lone man with an octopus head (with one of the above base classes). There will be an army of minions in the way, and thats assuming you reach his lair before his assassin death squads silence you in the night. :smallwink:

Seriously? The most obvious way is to eat their way to the top. E.g. start by eating a bunch of level 10 characters, gain their powers, then eat a bunch of level 11 characters, gain their powers, and so on and so forth. By the time they start facing level 20s they will be more capable of swallowing their tasty tasty brains. :smallbiggrin:[/QUOTE]

Ah, yes, but that requires a lot of chance and such that the DM must make up. A beholder mage can just be powerful without having all of that "DM BS" added in. It's like the difference between fighting a tank or a box containing all the pieces needed to create a nuke, along with several large instruction manuals. :smallbiggrin:




Right. So giving Beholders levels in a PrC that is widely acknowledged to be broken is not an abuse of the rules.



In the grand scheme of badassery, maximum power attainable tends to be more important than how simple it is to attain said power. In fact, there seems to be an inverse correlation between badassery and simplicity (for optimizers around here anyway) I.e. The more complicated the plan, the more badass it is seen to be.

Ok, but the beholder mage is right there, all laid out in it's regular form. Wheras to do the psion thing, you have to really read into the powers and find which ones are most synergistic. The prior being ridiculously over-powered as opposed to abusing the rules. Either way, whatever is fighting it is screwed. :P

So yes, Illithids can get to be ridiculous, beholders can get to be ridiculous, but I will choose beholders. They just strike my fancy more.

But, I will forgo even beholders if psurlons are around. :D

The Glyphstone
2010-06-20, 11:19 PM
And organization? They tried to link their WHOLE race up telepathically, which ended up in a psionic rip in the future, sending them back in the past (to Dark Sun). Plus, just freakin' look at them! (and I mean the AD&D look, those are ****in' bad ass)

http://www.iwozhere.com/SRD/images/88268_620_102.jpg

(I could only find the MMII picture, alas)


Sorry, but all I see is a giant earthworm that likes bondage. Not terribly scary...

Greymane
2010-06-20, 11:30 PM
::Awesome stuff about Illithid::

I remember reading that once upon a time. Well, Mindflayers just became cooler to me.


Sorry, but all I see is a giant earthworm that likes bondage. Not terribly scary...

Are you daft?! The earthworm has arms! It is evolving! Flee, my brethren! The reign of man is ended!

Lhurgyof
2010-06-20, 11:43 PM
Sorry, but all I see is a giant earthworm that likes bondage. Not terribly scary...

I really wish I could find the AD&D picture... It's like a slimy worm-thing that's humanoid, has a silk cloak with crystals hanging off of it, and has a huge freakin' mouth with lots of teeth.
Oh, and did I mention that it's a challenge rating 5 with dominate person, hold monster, and mind fog AT WILL?

Crafty Cultist
2010-06-21, 12:12 AM
My vote goes to Illithids. both are pretty cool, and the beholder is more dangerous in terms of personal power, but I've always been partial to intelligent, alien entities that consume or assimilate their enemies

Beorn080
2010-06-21, 12:49 AM
Beholder.

As many people are fond of pointing out, Always in D&D terms does not really mean 100%. A sane Beholder would be a great BBEG. Party walks in, Beholder starts its evil speech, stops and casually munches on one of its dominated thralls. Beholder mage would make it nastier. Give it a really sympathetic goal too, like curing the other Beholders of their insanity, whose cure is incidentally killing everything else.

FoE
2010-06-21, 12:58 AM
A beholder to me seems like a straight-up monster; a frightening creature, to be sure, but no more a BBEG than, say, a bulette or a carrion crawler. They're watchdogs and guardians, but that's about it.

An illithid is a villain, incredibly intellegient and capable of commanding scores of minions. His motivations can either be simple (snatching people off the street to make meals out of) or grand (finding some lost artifact or acquiring an army) An illithid is home in all types of environments, even right dab in a huge sprawling metropolis. (Using a disguise, an illithid could at least walk down a city street.) And getting captured by a mind flayer could be considered a fate worse than death; getting your brain eaten might be a merciful end.