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View Full Version : 4e Tomb of Horrors Sample Encounter



Gralamin
2010-06-01, 12:32 AM
So, today wizards released a for free sample encounter (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/TombT3.pdf) from the 4e version of tomb of horrors. While this does not show instant death, it does show an incredibly powerful and deadly trap, and thus potentially, the challenge of the Tomb may still be there.

As a side note a bit of math on the "Second failed Saving Throw"

The chance of failing two saves before making one is (1-ChanceToSucceed)^2. For various chances (Normal is 55%), Your chance is as below of becoming dominated for the encounter:

{table=head]Modifier|Chance to be permeantly dominated
-10|90.25%
-9|81.00%
-8|72.25%
-7|64.00%
-6|56.25%
-5|49.00%
-4|42.25%
-3|36.00%
-2|30.25%
-1|25.00%
0|20.25%
1|16.00%
2|12.25%
3|9.00%
4|6.25%
5|4.00%
6|2.25%
7|1.00%
8|0.25%
9|0.00%[/table]

Obviously you might have a round that you have +0, and a round you have +6, as well as bonus saves, etc. So in actual play your chance is likely to be higher. Unless all your leaders get dominated first.


What are your opinions?

The New Bruceski
2010-06-01, 04:56 AM
Looks like fun. Note that it's not PERMANENT domination if they're prepared, a ritual can cure people (if enough folks are sane enough to restrain them), disabling the trap cures people 75% of the time, and dispelling it cures people 100%.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-01, 05:16 AM
So, today wizards released a for free sample encounter (https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/TombT3.pdf) from the 4e version of tomb of horrors. While this does not show instant death, it does show an incredibly powerful and deadly trap, and thus potentially, the challenge of the Tomb may still be there.

What are your opinions?
Uh, yeah. While I'm sure that's a novel design, it is a far cry from being "incredibly powerful" and certainly not "deadly".

After its first attack, and very likely even before that, any adventuring party worthy of the name will simply realize they should not step into the friggin' mist, thus making it irrelevant. Even if that one character is hit, any decent leader can simply dispel the effect for him, and two very easy skill checks can get rid of the trap. So we have a trap which looks nasty on paper, but turns out to do very little in actual gameplay.

Come on, this is the Tomb Of Horrors we're talking about, it's supposed to disintegrate you for even thinking about it. It's a nice solo monster but there's zero synergy: at the very least, the trap should trigger on PCs being pushed into there, and be placed in an area so that this is a reasonable strategy.

Mercenary Pen
2010-06-01, 05:35 AM
Uh, yeah. While I'm sure that's a novel design, it is a far cry from being "incredibly powerful" and certainly not "deadly".

After its first attack, and very likely even before that, any adventuring party worthy of the name will simply realize they should not step into the friggin' mist, thus making it irrelevant. Even if that one character is hit, any decent leader can simply dispel the effect for him, and two very easy skill checks can get rid of the trap. So we have a trap which looks nasty on paper, but turns out to do very little in actual gameplay.

Come on, this is the Tomb Of Horrors we're talking about, it's supposed to disintegrate you for even thinking about it. It's a nice solo monster but there's zero synergy: at the very least, the trap should trigger on PCs being pushed into there, and be placed in an area so that this is a reasonable strategy.

There's a fairly quick way to make that a lot more deadly... add in some forced movement from monsters of some variety.

Hallavast
2010-06-01, 05:40 AM
Uh, yeah. While I'm sure that's a novel design, it is a far cry from being "incredibly powerful" and certainly not "deadly".

. . . .

Come on, this is the Tomb Of Horrors we're talking about, it's supposed to disintegrate you for even thinking about it. It's a nice solo monster but there's zero synergy: at the very least, the trap should trigger on PCs being pushed into there, and be placed in an area so that this is a reasonable strategy.

Indeed.
One of the crusades that 4e has reportedly taken up is to prevent instant TPKs (or instant TEKs). This classic dungeon has always contradicted that mindset.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-01, 05:51 AM
There's a fairly quick way to make that a lot more deadly... add in some forced movement from monsters of some variety.
Except that the trap doesn't trigger on forced movement. And can be removed by two very easy skill checks, too.


Indeed.
One of the crusades that 4e has reportedly taken up is to prevent instant TPKs (or instant TEKs). This classic dungeon has always contradicted that mindset.
Precisely. Tomb Of Horrors goes against so many 4E design principles that it's simply impossible to put it there (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InNameOnly).

Mad Wizard
2010-06-01, 09:04 AM
I think this has the potential to be fairly deadly. As it stands, it's nastier than your average 4e encounter, but I think that with a few changes it could be truly evil. Add another at-will to the fey - call it "Call of the Deep" or something. Something like:

Call of the Deep At-Will
Attack: Ranged 6 (one enemy); +21 vs. Will
Hit: 2d10 + 11 damage, and she slides the target 1 (2?) square.

Then, make the mist trigger at both the beginning and at the end of their turn. Actually, that might not even be necessary, since she can now slide them into the mist, then immobilize them, all at once.

Tiki Snakes
2010-06-01, 10:26 AM
She can teleport, (recharges on a 6), has several push powers (one that is a close blast 5 that pushes 5 AND knocks prone (and recharges when first bloodied) and a reaction that allows her to push 2 if flanked.

She can also immobilise 3 people in one turn if she rolls well. She could do this every turn. Alternatively, she could use the basic attack that gives saving throw penalties, or any combination of the two. (Though using her immobilising basic attack in melee would provoke, as it's a ranged attack).
Note - 5 basic attacks, rather than 3, when she is bloodied.


Also note, the water is difficult terrain, and she also has an aura 5 that creates slow terrain. The mist's attack is a burst 1 focused on the triggering character. So if she locks two people in there, they'll be firing off one at the end of each of their rounds, and people not even entirely in the mist could be affected.

All told, no. I don't think we really need to add call of the deep, really. :smallsmile:
Played suitably horribly, this is very much TPK territory. As appropriate.

[edit] Nearly missed this, actually; The mist grants concealment vs creatures more than 2 squares away, and total concealment. The Stone circle also provides cover, there's only 2 squares outside of the room, (and the corridor is very narrow) so standing and sniping is pretty much straight out. The party essentially has the choice to wade in all together, send in only one or two people (to almost certain death on their own) and a high chance of domination, or ignore the room entirely.

But in typical style, mindressa seems to have something they are likely to need. :smallbiggrin:

Kurald Galain
2010-06-01, 10:44 AM
She can teleport, (recharges on a 6), has several push powers (one that is a close blast 5 that pushes 5 AND knocks prone (and recharges when first bloodied) and a reaction that allows her to push 2 if flanked.
Yes. Like I said, nice solo. The problem is that the area map works against her: From most places where the PCs can stand, they can't actually be pushed anywhere. And, from most places where Mindressa can stand, she can't actually hit a PC in the concealing cloud without provoking an OA from another PC.


Also note, the water is difficult terrain, and she also has an aura 5 that creates slow terrain.
That doesn't stack, though.

Oh, even funnier? Disabling the trap ends the encounter because Mindressa will then be un-charmed and gives them the key. I've not seen anyone use Dispel Magic, ever, but two skill checks at 24 and 25 will do the trick. A level-14 character easily has +16 to skill checks, so the encounter could plausibly be over before Mindressa acts.

The encounter is an example of good idea and poor execution. Yes, a good DM can make it work, but as written it fails big time.

Tiki Snakes
2010-06-01, 10:57 AM
Yes. Like I said, nice solo. The problem is that the area map works against her: From most places where the PCs can stand, they can't actually be pushed anywhere. And, from most places where Mindressa can stand, she can't actually hit a PC in the concealing cloud without provoking an OA from another PC.


That doesn't stack, though.

Oh, even funnier? Disabling the trap ends the encounter because Mindressa will then be un-charmed and gives them the key. I've not seen anyone use Dispel Magic, ever, but two skill checks at 24 and 25 will do the trick. A level-14 character easily has +16 to skill checks, so the encounter could plausibly be over before Mindressa acts.

The encounter is an example of good idea and poor execution. Yes, a good DM can make it work, but as written it fails big time.

If the party goes in and does the right thing, yeah, it's something that can be dealt with nicely and cleverly. Note they need to make a dc 28 arcana check BEFORE they can attempt to disable it, pretty much.

Not sure I follow you on the opportunity attacks, as she does have both melee and ranged basic attacks. She can also, shift 2 squares in the water, and doesn't have to treat it like difficult terrain. Plus, if they are in the cloud, it's no matter, because if they stay there long, they'll be removed from the situation pretty quickly.

The aura could be used best by teleporting to the doorwar once most of the party is inside the room, perhaps. The close blast 5 would hit pretty much everyone in there, and it'd only take one or two dominated PC's to make this turn very ugly very quickly.

It's basically almost certainly going to be a short encounter, win or lose, with a very decent chance of lose. And for Parties that are occaisionally prone to not work together overly well, or fall for the occaisional idiot trap, it'll be pretty one sided really.

I'd rank it in a lot of ways as more genuinely dangerous and interesting than a lot of the vintage tomb. I mean, once you've twigged that the darkness in the statues mouth is a bad thing, that particular trap is pretty much just scenary, for example.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-01, 11:01 AM
standing and sniping is pretty much straight out.
No it's not. Concealment is only -2, it's pretty much impossible in the room to be more than 5 squares away from anything to gain total concealment, and area attacks ignore concealment entirely.

And she's a solo. That means that as soon as the party sees her, she'll end up marked, cursed, quarried, dazed, immobilized, dazed, blinded, and prone.


Note they need to make a dc 28 arcana check BEFORE they can attempt to disable it, pretty much.
Or get attacked by it once. Being attacked by a trap should clue the party in that the trap exists, no? After that, I'm having a hard time imagining players that don't start asking "arcana check, what is doing that?" and so on.


Not sure I follow you on the opportunity attacks, as she does have both melee and ranged basic attacks.
She pretty much needs her immobilizing attack to ensure a PC ends its turn in the mist, but it provokes. The room is small enough that she may not have a place to shift to that is not next to a PC.

Axolotl
2010-06-01, 11:10 AM
While this does not show instant death, it does show an incredibly powerful and deadly trap, and thus potentially, the challenge of the Tomb may still be there.

What are your opinions?How is that a deadly trap? The wole purpose of the original Tomb of Horrors was to punish players for not being careful. Only a complete idiot is ever going to be caught in that trap, even then they're given several saves to get free.

Tiki Snakes
2010-06-01, 11:14 AM
No it's not. Concealment is only -2, it's pretty much impossible in the room to be more than 5 squares away from anything to gain total concealment, and area attacks ignore concealment entirely.

And she's a solo. That means that as soon as the party sees her, she'll end up marked, cursed, quarried, dazed, immobilized, dazed, blinded, and prone.

Maybe. But if turn one is an unaware fighter/etc walking into the mist to charge her, getting hit by 3 ranged and readied immobolises, then it could quickly become a different story. The mist does target will, after all, and isn't the most obvious threat in the room, between her, a circle of standing stones, and so on. Hell, all it would take is two failed saves and the party is very possibly down one team member. If it's a particularly bad-ass defender or a striker, then even without Mindy it's going to be a dangerous task.

and with a +5 to saves and 2 action points (and no reason to spare them), I really can't see this encounter easily being anything other than brutal. It'd be tricky even with a reasonably optimized party with meta-game knowledge of the room, frankly. For the average and uninformed party? yeeeah.

Axolotl; Actually, this is pretty much the archetypal 'idiot trap', because the players who aren't being careful enough will see a combat encounter with tricky terrain. Only after the fighter and/or rogue go wobbly and start trying to do surgery on the wizard will they realise there was a trap here at all, whereas if they are careful and canny, they will resolve the situation in about two to three turns, perhaps. Sounds right to me.

[edit] Reguarding the mist's attack; If the attack misses, what have they learned? If the attack hits, then the rogue just stabbed the Wizard in the cajones, and could get worse.

Also, the ceiling is 15 feet high, and mindressa can fly. :smallsmile:

Mando Knight
2010-06-01, 02:08 PM
From what I can see, locations 19 and 20 aren't labeled here. They might actually be far enough apart that it takes a while for the players to draw the proper connections and run.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-06-01, 03:16 PM
This is an interesting trap - some notes:

(1) After you fail your second Save, you are Dominated save that you are no longer dazed and can make use of any of their powers or abilities. Thus, a permanently Dominated PC is going to be dropping Dailies, Magic Item Abilities, etc. on his own party. Ths Is A Bad Thing :smalleek:

(2) Because you have to end your turn in the mist, merely pushing PCs into it isn't going to be enough to trigger the attack. However, since it provides concealment, melee types might be tempted to hang out in it to get extra defense from Mindressa's ranged attacks.

(3) When the trap is triggered, it makes an attack at Burst 1 centered on the triggering creature. So several PCs might get hit, not just the one poor schmo who triggered it.

So I'll have to disagree with Kurald Galain - this is an excellent example of a 4e "Tomb of Horrors" type trap. As had been noted, it penalizes incautious/stupid PCs and can exact massive, hard-to-recoup costs from the PCs as a result.

For example, casting Remove Affliction is not a 1 round action and it is not going to be cheap to take down a Dominated PC who is firing off his Dailies and using other consumables. Plus, after the Ritual is cast, the healed PC is still going to be out all of those irreplaceable powers.

The original Tomb of Horrors had a lot of "lolwut" traps that ended the game for you; at many points during the crawl you could be stripped naked and dumped outside the Tomb - and a fighter without magic gear and a wizard without his spellbook was FINISHED in a game of AD&D. Since that is not fun (and not appropriate outside of a tournament setting) the designers of the 4e Tomb seemed to have gone the "punish the stupid" route - which not only makes the Tomb seem merciless but it inspires the sort of panicked paranoia that the original Tomb is said to have done.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-01, 06:34 PM
(1) After you fail your second Save, you are Dominated save that you are no longer dazed and can make use of any of their powers or abilities.
Correct, the final result is rather nasty. It is, however, extremely unlikely to occur, ever, as it requires three rolls spread over several rounds in a game where combat doesn't last many rounds.


melee types might be tempted to hang out in it to get extra defense from Mindressa's ranged attacks.
That is, to put it mildly, not such a stellar tactic.



(3) When the trap is triggered, it makes an attack at Burst 1 centered on the triggering creature. So several PCs might get hit, not just the one poor schmo who triggered it.
Yes. However, after the trap triggers once, all the PCs are going to do their utmost to not end their turn in the cloud. And it's not exactly difficult for them to do so.



For example, casting Remove Affliction is not a 1 round action and it is not going to be cheap to take down a Dominated PC
Sure. But any decent leader at this level will have multiple powers that grant a saving throw. Even non-leaders can do that with utility powers, orbs, and heal checks. More importantly, after the party makes two easy skill checks, the encounter ends.

So yes, we have a nasty condition: permanent and undazing dominate. However, it is (1) easy to avoid by not stepping into that friggin' obvious cloud, (2) slow and highly unlikely to occur even if you ignore #1, and (3) easy and quick to remove even if you ignore #1 and #2. Dangerous, this is not.


If the attack hits, then the rogue just stabbed the Wizard in the cajones, and could get worse.
No, if the attack hits, then the rogue is dominated and his turn is over, so the rest of the party has a full round to do something about it before the rogue gets to stab anyone.

Tiki Snakes
2010-06-01, 07:53 PM
Correct, the final result is rather nasty. It is, however, extremely unlikely to occur, ever, as it requires three rolls spread over several rounds in a game where combat doesn't last many rounds.


That is, to put it mildly, not such a stellar tactic.


Yes. However, after the trap triggers once, all the PCs are going to do their utmost to not end their turn in the cloud. And it's not exactly difficult for them to do so.


Sure. But any decent leader at this level will have multiple powers that grant a saving throw. Even non-leaders can do that with utility powers, orbs, and heal checks. More importantly, after the party makes two easy skill checks, the encounter ends.

So yes, we have a nasty condition: permanent and undazing dominate. However, it is (1) easy to avoid by not stepping into that friggin' obvious cloud, (2) slow and highly unlikely to occur even if you ignore #1, and (3) easy and quick to remove even if you ignore #1 and #2. Dangerous, this is not.


No, if the attack hits, then the rogue is dominated and his turn is over, so the rest of the party has a full round to do something about it before the rogue gets to stab anyone.

Could get worse as in, could fail some saves. See Oracle Hunter point 1 for information.

It does seem that a lot of your problem with the trap, K, comes from the point of view of someone who already knows what the trap is and how to beat it.
I'd say a trap that has a burst 1, will targeting attack that takes a pc out of the fight on each hit is pretty nasty, personally. Just how lethal do you need things in the Tomb to be, eh? :smallwink:

The New Bruceski
2010-06-02, 02:21 AM
A couple of things:

1) this is, technically, not THE Tomb of Horrors. The flavor text for this area suggests that it's an abandoned Tomb that Acererak built in the flavor of his original. It doesn't need to be as lethal, he's not living here anymore.

2) Tomb of Horrors traps were based on "you have two choices, don't set off the trap or die." 4e as a whole has steered things towards encounter traps, where the party sets off the trap and then needs to deal with it during combat, find a way to stop it, et cetera. This fits marvelously with that idea. A mist that causes Bad Things if you end your turn in it will either force the party to alter their positioning around it, or eat up Leader actions to help them make saves. This is what a controller DOES. The trap does its job even if nobody ends up perma-dominated.

When players encounter the trap and its effect (combined with a Controller Solo who is making life difficult for them and has a place to hide) they'll get a shock, work around it or disable it, and move on. The end result is to showcase Acererak as a creative guy who likes his traps, without hitting the party with a brick wall to do so. An ideal ToH Classic adventure (from the characters' perspective -- they succeed, get loot and get out) is a walk in the park, because any misstep is game over. It would be as if Indiana Jones has successfully swapped the idol for the bag of sand.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-02, 03:52 AM
It does seem that a lot of your problem with the trap, K, comes from the point of view of someone who already knows what the trap is and how to beat it.
No, it's just that most players in my region, when faced with weird terrain like clouds, would not step into it before they knew what it was, and would ask the DM if they can make a perception, arcana, or dungeoneering check to examine them. It's not like that isn't obvious or anything.

Other than that, there's just too much sloppy design here: a solo with a push effect, with a trap that doesn't actually trigger on forced movement, and a room that has too many "safe spots" from which you can't be pushed into the trap. A solo generating difficult terrain in a room that is already difficult terrain. A cloud giving concealment from > 5 squares, in a room that is too small for this to matter. Like I said, good idea, poor execution.

Axolotl
2010-06-02, 04:00 AM
Could get worse as in, could fail some saves. See Oracle Hunter point 1 for information.

It does seem that a lot of your problem with the trap, K, comes from the point of view of someone who already knows what the trap is and how to beat it.
I'd say a trap that has a burst 1, will targeting attack that takes a pc out of the fight on each hit is pretty nasty, personally. Just how lethal do you need things in the Tomb to be, eh? :smallwink:For the Tomb of Horrors they should be lucky to get a save at all for this trap because only a complete idiot is ever going to trigger that trap. The original tomb punished greed and carelessness harshl that's the whole point. This is just a laughabley ineffective trap because nobodies going to set it off. And even if they do they still get several chances to save themselves.