A challenge for you clever chaps. 3.5 Sniper.

[Grifthin]

Hello clever chaps (and ladies), using nothing more than the PHB 1 with no splat books, dmg or phb 2 or anything else what would you say is the best build for a level 20 character, one who would preferably likes to shoot people in the face and kill them with 1-2 shots. Bonus points for someone who would be able to deal with the various challenges in a dungeon well (jumping, clming, traps etc). What would you say is the best race/class/feat combination ?

[Heliomance]

Archery in Core is hard. Very, very hard. As in, very nearly impossible to do effectively. To be honest, your best bet is sneak attack, if you have to stay inside core.

[Ranos]

In core ? Shoot people in the face with magic. It's your only option.

[Ossian]

Hello clever chaps (and ladies), using nothing more than the PHB 1 with no splat books, dmg or phb 2 or anything else what would you say is the best build for a level 20 character, one who would preferably likes to shoot people in the face and kill them with 1-2 shots. Bonus points for someone who would be able to deal with the various challenges in a dungeon well (jumping, clming, traps etc). What would you say is the best race/class/feat combination ?

You have to multiclass heavily, ranger/scout/wizard/arcane archer would seem a way to go, to get favored enemy, archery feats, weapon specializations and sudden strike if you can get it to work ranged. Your are basically building a navy seal.

Start with Elf Scout for maxi skill points galore, then Ranger at leisure to increase durability and go the feat-heavy way, dip in wizard for the 1st level arcane spells, then arcane archer.

Scout 3 / Ranger 6 / Wizard 1 / Arcane Archer 10

Weapon Specialization would be nice but I am afraid you have to go epic...



EDIT:
Or use WBL at level 20 to buy / craft a Barrett .50 rifle with depleted uranium rounds, spend a feat slot in "Exotic Weapon: God" and pick at your targets (in their face, if you like it) from a safe 1 mile away. Get a bag of crisps and some soda for the long waits. Shrubbery curtain for concealment is also neat, you never know....

[Heliomance]

You mean the Scout from Complete Adventure that isn't anywhere in the PHB? And the Arcane Archer that also isn't in the PHB?

[Ossian]

You mean the Scout from Complete Adventure that isn't anywhere in the PHB? And the Arcane Archer that also isn't in the PHB?

Whoooooops! All right, then....hehehe, tough break for the archer! :smallcool:

(but see my edit above for a level 20 (any class, really) solution.

[Prodan]

And the Arcane Archer that also isn't in the PHB?


using nothing more than the PHB 1 with no splat books, dmg or phb 2

Arcane Archer is from the DMG, Heliomance.

No need to apologize, Ossian.

[Amphetryon]

Sorcerer 10/Rogue 10? Go-go Empowered Melf's Acid Arrow.

[Heliomance]

using nothing more than the PHB 1 with no ... dmg or phb 2 or anything else

I am perfectly aware that Arcane Archer is DMG. The DMG is not the PHB.

[Fizban]

Well, with a wand of Extended Sniper's Shot, and another wand of Extended Guided Shot, and a suit of armor with a pair of Wand Chambers, you can sneak attack anything out to the maximum range of your weapon with no penalties for range, cover, or concealment. Assuming you want a full attack, use a Composite Longbow or Repeating Heavy Crossbow for maximum 1,100/1,200 foot range. You can be any sneak attacking/sudden striking class you want: get proficiency with your weapon, take Point Blank Shot into Rapid Shot, and get a Speed weapon for an extra attack after that and you're done. You hide, enemies take a massive range penalty on spotting you, and you shoot three or more sneak attacks per round at anything within 1,000 feet.

But since you want PHB only, it's not going to happen. Even the XPH would at least give you Zen Archery and the Psionic Shot line for a cleric archer, but PHB by itself is not going to make a sniper. The spells I mentioned are from Spell Compendium, and the inexpensive non-magical Wand Chamber is in Dungeonscape. That's one book for some spells and another book to free up your hands, and I doubt you'll find another build that uses less.

Edit: ha, not even allowing the DMG? So you aren't allowed magic items either then? That'll end well.

[Curmudgeon]

With PH only, your best bet is Ranger 17/Rogue 3. You'll really need Hide in Plain Sight if you want to "shoot people in the face".

[Prodan]

I am perfectly aware that Arcane Archer is DMG. The DMG is not the PHB.

Ah, I must have misread the OP. My apologies.

[nedz]

Wizard 20 - Done

[Prodan]

With what, Extended Empowered Maximized Acid Arrow?

[Dr.Epic]

With those limitations I'd say fighter all the way and elf.

[Eldariel]

Rogue 19/Shadowdancer 1. It won't be impressive especially since you're limited to 30' Sneak Attack, but it's better than alternatives.

[ZeroNumerous]

Rogue 19/Shadowdancer 1. It won't be impressive especially since you're limited to 30' Sneak Attack, but it's better than alternatives.

No PrCs are in the PHB.


Wizard 20 - Done

Enlarged (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#enlargeSpell) Fireballs have a range of 2400 feet at 20. Add Widen and make yourself into an artillery piece.

[Eldariel]

No PrCs are in the PHB.

Well, Rogue 20 then *Shrug* UMD it up with Wands of Invisibility and what-not.

[Optimystik]

Well, Rogue 19/Cleric 1 then *Shrug*

FTFY, as the 20th Rogue level adds nothing.

[Curmudgeon]

Well, Rogue 20 then *Shrug* UMD it up with Wands of Invisibility and what-not.
Greater Invisibility (which is what I assume you meant) is in the Player's Handbook, but wands mostly aren't; they're in the Dungeon Master's Guide. The only wands available purely in the Player's Handbook are via the Craft Wand feat, which requires that you be a spellcaster and make them yourself.

Which is why I suggested Ranger 17/Rogue 3, to get Hide in Plain Sight.

[The Glyphstone]

It depends on which part of the request is most important, because you can't get all of it in one bite - core-only archery is just too weak.

Ranger 17/Rogue 3 will be very stealthy, but with mediocre damage output, and very low to pitiful damage if Hiding+sniping.

Rogue 19/Wizard 1 with UMD to make him a pseudowizard will have the best stealth, the second-best survivability, and the best damage output against unprepared foes.*
*Except, as pointed out, no magic items.

and then there's simply Wizard 20, or Sorcerer 20. As against the likely intended spirit of the challenge it may be, a full arcane caster who really sts his mind to it can oneshot pretty much anything that the above two can and more, plus have far greater utility and general effectiveness. Magic is just that broken.



EDIT: Right - above poster said no DMG. That means no magic items, which means Wizard or Sorcerer is the only class possibly capable of meeting the "one or two-hit kill" requirement, while still being able to stealth in some degree.

[Heliomance]

One does have to wonder just how stringent the "no DMG" requirement is. Does it just mean no PrCs? Does it include no magic items, which would be unbelievably harsh? Or have we misread the post and the phrase "dmg or phb 2" was meant to imply "dmg 2 or phb 2"?

[The Glyphstone]

Indeed. If we have to go itemless, the only answer's going to be a full caster, none of the noncasters can output anything near decent damage without gear.

[Optimystik]

I hope DMG is included - core-only archers are fail enough as it is without further paring-down.

[Ossian]

Greater Invisibility (which is what I assume you meant) is in the Player's Handbook, but wands mostly aren't; they're in the Dungeon Master's Guide. The only wands available purely in the Player's Handbook are via the Craft Wand feat, which requires that you be a spellcaster and make them yourself.

Which is why I suggested Ranger 17/Rogue 3, to get Hide in Plain Sight.

I like that.

Snag a large heavy crossbow (repeating is optional) and you get a 2d8+2d6+8 (for the 4 favorite enemies). You can now proceed Gatling down your favorite enemies :smallsmile:

It is really up to you to balance the ability to ninja your targets (and get favorite enemy on them) with more sneak attack and skill points (rogue levels) or higher BAB, feats, and possibly weapon specialization (fighter levels).

[Amphetryon]

Snag a large heavy crossbow (repeating is optional) and you get a 2d8+2d6+8 (for the 4 favorite enemies). You can now proceed Gatling down your favorite enemiesWhich you need a full round action to reload every time. Not a great sniper at mid-to-upper levels where that damage won't come close to killing the ones you're sniping, unless you make a habit of hunting commoners.

[Rothen]

Indeed. If we have to go itemless, the only answer's going to be a full caster, none of the noncasters can output anything near decent damage without gear.

Have we found...the monk's niche?


...Nah.
Moving on, everybody else is right. If we can't use the DMG, we have no magic items. Making it pretty much impossible for any class to beat level 20 challenges without being a spellcaster themselves.

Wizard/sorcerer 20 seems like the best bet.

Who cares about BAB when you're the only class that has access to Dex boosts, Enchanted weapons and Invisbility?

[Lapak]

Hmm. You can squeak out a few more points of damage by using a sling and getting your Strength up. Play a half-orc Rogue 15/Wiz 5, ramp up Str/Dex/Int, cast Blink so as to deny Dex bonuses and get Sneak Attack. Start with STR 20, bump it every time you hit a level that lets you, cast Bull's Strength for damage and Cat's Grace to hit.

20 + 5 + 4 = 29 for a +9 mod.

1d4 + 8d6 + 9 averages around 40 damage per shot. 3 attacks per round gets you up to a respectable damage total if you can hit each time; this guy should be able to one-round-kill soft targets and put a reasonable dent in nastier ones. As a Rogue/Wiz with reasonable INT, you should have enough skill points to fill the skillmonkey roles, and your high STR will pad your Climb and Jump checks nicely. Keep an Invisibility memorized [or better yet, scribe scrolls of it] for when you're outmatched, and you'd do okay.

That's the best I can come up with off the cuff, assuming I haven't missed anything.

EDIT: You would, of course, have to absolutely tank your CHA, WIS and CON scores in order to get anywhere near the other stats you want.

[Optimystik]

Have we found...the monk's niche?

lolshuriken

[Ossian]

Which you need a full round action to reload every time. Not a great sniper at mid-to-upper levels where that damage won't come close to killing the ones you're sniping, unless you make a habit of hunting commoners.

Man I'm old! I thought, hu-huh, 12-36 HP is pretty nasty with a x3 crit potential, but then again maybe it is not. What about a heavy repeating crossbow? (medium , instead of large) ?

[Draz74]

Wizard 20 - Done

For once, I have to agree with this "automatic" retort. With the extreme limitations this "challenge" sets out (no magic items? really?), Invisible Disintegrate spamming is the only way to go.

[Grifthin]

The no DMG etc is purely in regards to classes. Equipment is of course welcome, although I would prefer supporting equipment to be in the minority for the build requirement.

[nyarlathotep]

There really is nothing other than wizard 20 for this or maybe sorcerer 20

Now if you want a martial sniper you need the complete books at least and preferably masters of the wild.

[Eldariel]

The no DMG etc is purely in regards to classes. Equipment is of course welcome, although I would prefer supporting equipment to be in the minority for the build requirement.

Keeping equipment in the minority isn't happening with non-casters in Core. As this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8585538&postcount=187) aptly demonstrates, you barely have anything over a Fighter 10 levels your junior on level 20 compared to level 10, other than few more HP and some more To Hit. Your damage is pretty much identical, your AC is pretty much identical, your saves are slightly superior and your combat options are 100% identical. Indeed, high level warriors are mostly sums of their equipment.

Rogue is a bit better off thanks to Sneak Attack scaling, and as Curmudgeon said, Hide in Plain Sight is a notable perk from Ranger but magic and magic items are the only real source for ranged martial damage (in melee, you have Power Attack and more importantly, Cavalry Charge as options, but in range, Sneak Attack is the only decent source and it caps out at 30'). Casters can do quite well though, but you're best off sniping with spells.

[lsfreak]

Keeping equipment in the minority isn't happening with non-casters in Core. As this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=20579) aptly demonstrates, you barely have anything over a Fighter 10 levels your junior on level 20 compared to level 10, other than few more HP and some more To Hit. Your damage is pretty much identical, your AC is pretty much identical, your saves are slightly superior and your combat options are 100% identical. Indeed, high level warriors are mostly sums of their equipment.

Check your link, it's linking to someone's profile for me.

[Eldariel]

Check your link, it's linking to someone's profile for me.

...how the hell did that happen? I guess since it's Arbitrary's post I'm linking I somehow clicked his nick instead or something. I don't get it. Please ignore me, I seem to be quite off my game today.

[Pluto]

I'd say Druid 20. High Wisdom and in-class Spot are probably necessary; build-in scouting methods don't hurt.

Maybe dip a Ranger level for Hide, Move Silently and bow proficiencies, but that would be more for show than for effectiveness.

[Lycanthromancer]

Be a rogue and sneak attack with arrows in melee.

That, or a druid or wizard.

[Heliomance]

Be a wizard. Polymorph into something with a ranged attack.