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NeNeko
2010-06-01, 09:53 AM
Hello kind intilligent soul with lots of free time,

I can normally make my own characters(with heroforge) but I can't get this combination to work. I simply do not know how to put everything together with out it. Would you please help me put my build together?

Race: Tauric Half-Elf Deer (Deertaur)
Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Elf)
Hit Dice 3d8: BAB +3; BSB Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +0; (2+ Int modifier) x6 skill points in Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot; 2 feats (favors Run)
Speed 60 ft. (12 squares)
+2 natural
2 hooves (1d2) – secondary natural weapons
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, elven blood, +2 racial bonus on savings throws against enchantment spells or effects
Abilities: Dex +4, Con -2
Skills: +2 jump, +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks, +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks, +2 racial bonus on Hide
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any.
Favored Class: Any
Attributes: Please use a 30 point build.

Class: Paladin of Freedom with varient class feature Charging Smite. Charging Smite: In place of the Special Mount ability, you deal extra smite damage when you smite evil on a charge attack.
I also have access to the Spirited Charge feat. Spirited Charge
Benefit: When using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).
Weapon: I wish to use shield and lance. I am more interested in accuracy than damage.

The generous GM has given me these options for equipment.
"As an 8th-level PC (Paladin 5 + HD 3 half-elf/half-deer/deertaur/tauric deer = ECL 8) you could start with -
1) 9400 gp worth of gear of choice. Or...
2) +2 magical armor of your choice (or equivalent of +2, like +1 light fortification chainmail), +1 magical shield of your choice, +1 magical weapon of your choice, masterwork secondary weapon, masterwork ranged weapon, and 2500 gp of other gear (or for further enhancements to weapons or armor)."
In my party our tank is a barbarian, so, I think may need to be the meat shield on occation.

Any guidance or builds would be appreciated.

Thank you~

Flickerdart
2010-06-01, 10:02 AM
If you can get it past the DM, take the standard Special Mount and designate yourself as it, for bonus shinies. :smallbiggrin:

Bharg
2010-06-01, 10:30 AM
Tauric half-elf deer!? Occult...
How would this thing even look?

Quietus
2010-06-01, 10:32 AM
Tauric half-elf deer!? Occult...
How would this thing even look?

Deer's body, large-breasted elf torso coming from where the neck should be. Oh, and antlers.

Yes, I know that breasts and antlers are from two different genders. But so what?

Alternatively, something like this, but thinner : http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG32.jpg

Bharg
2010-06-01, 11:10 AM
Wow, sorry, but D&D breeding is just so wrong. :smallwink:
Magical horseshoes of Zephyr or speed would be great though.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-01, 11:17 AM
Well, that race is... not really very good for a Paladin. Dex doesn't help much when you will probably be wearing heavy armor, and Con is really, really important. 30 point buy is also going to hurt a Paladin hard-core, since they really need high-to-above-average stats in every ability.

Good options might include Serenity (Paladin Cha-based features switch to Wis; lets you dump Cha), uh... I guess maybe Weapon Finesse and Racial Weapon Proficiency for the Elven Courtblade? Though it's definitely not a Lance, and it costs two feats. No, probably better to use the Lance. OK, well...

Considering that you're a Paladin of Freedom, though, you should multiclass with Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian (Complete Champion). That gets you Pounce, which helps with charging and lets you use those hooves. If your DM waives the (incredibly stupid) multiclassing restriction on Paladin, go Paladin 4/Barbarian 1 for that instead of Paladin 5. If your DM doesn't waive those restrictions, then start Paladin 5, and take Barbarian next level and never look back. You can continue with Barbarian, find a PrC you like, or do something else, whatever. Also consider the Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) variant, it'll probably work better than regular Rage for you.

30 Point-Buy, +2 from 4th and 8th levels:
STR 17
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 8

CON is low, but not much to be done about it. Definitely get Serenity with this.

Feats: Serenity (1st), Mounted Combat (3rd), Ride-By Attack (6th) - Spirited Charge requires those last two, but you'll have to talk your DM into allowing Ride-By to work, and Mounted Combat will always be irrelevant, but Spirited Charge is what you wanted, right?

Skills: Concentration 8 ranks, Sense Motive 7 ranks, Ride 1 rank (needed for Mounted Combat et al.)

Items: +1 Light Fortification Full-Plate, +1 Lance, +1 Heavy Wooden Shield, Masterwork Longsword, Masterwork Composite (+3) Longbow, mundane gear (backpack, bedroll, tent, etc.), hang on to some cash for upgrading equipment.

No idea what you should do with your levels after this (other than Barbarian as mentioned above), but I recommend against taking Paladin past 5 (if you even can after taking a Barbarian level), you've gotten just about everything there is to get out of it.

Actually, I strongly recommend not being a Paladin at all, but whatever.


Other options that would be similar to but better than a Paladin, in order of "most-like-a-Paladin" to "least-like-a-Paladin". Coincidentally, that's also the order of "worst" to "best". Actually, that's not a coincidence at all.

Elven Paladin Substitution levels (Races of the Wild): Ranged Smite instead of Smite. Use Bows instead of charging/melee, get to use that Dexterity modifier. Bows aren't very good though.

Champion of Corellon Larethian (Races of the Wild): Requires +7 BAB, Mounted Combat (ugh), Dodge (ugh), Mobility (ugh), and Exotic Weapon Proficiency in Elven Thinblade or Elven Courtblade. The Courtblade's probably better. Basically also requires Weapon Finesse. That's a metric ton of feats, and they're all awful (with the exception of Weapon Finesse), so 2 levels of Fighter looks necessary. Could do this with a Paladin base (but again, multiclassed with Fighter, and again Barbarian), but it doesn't really add much. Once you finally get into the class, though, it's pretty good, and gets you Dex to damage, which is really, really nice.

Crusader (Tome of Battle): Basically, a Paladin that works. Doesn't really synergize with your race at all, though. Could be a pretty solid base for entry into Champion of Corellon Larethian, actually, with, again, a 2 level Fighter dip. RHD 3/Fighter 2/Crusader 3 with Dodge, Mobility, Mounted Combat, EWP (Courtblade), and Weapon Finesse is possible at your level, and has +7 BAB, so you can take Champion of Corellon Larethian next level. Pure Crusader is probably still better, but at least the Champion kinda works with your race. Again, dipping Barbarian is a good idea.

Swordsage (Tome of Battle): Ditching Paladin-ness entirely, but this actually works. Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade get you Dex to attack and damage, with just 2 Feats, by far the best you're looking at. Adaptive Style's a feat tax, so you have to take that, but whatever. RHD 3/Barbarian 1/Swordsage 4 is probably the best thing you could do with this race.

Runestar
2010-06-01, 05:29 PM
So you want to be a warcraft3 dryad? :smalltongue:

NeNeko
2010-06-01, 09:18 PM
Deer's body, large-breasted elf torso coming from where the neck should be. Oh, and antlers.

Yes, I know that breasts and antlers are from two different genders. But so what?

Alternatively, something like this, but thinner : http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG32.jpg
Large breasted and elf seldom coincide, not that I have seen.

My concept is not 100% thought out. I was thinking about being some kind of centaur knight but the SIZE kept bothering me. I started looking around(the net) and saw this image and fell in love with the concept.
http://picasaweb.google.com/fun.fukuoka/Deertaur#5477969461183828482
She is powerful AND elegant and not LARGE.

Background wise, this is not a magical crossbreeding but a curse upon her by a god who did not care much for the wanton destruction of the local forests and it in habitants for profit. She is a lord-ling and is paying for the crime of her parents. They have since found more sustainable ways to make money.
etc...

NeNeko
2010-06-01, 09:21 PM
So you want to be a warcraft3 dryad? :smalltongue:

I have not seen them before. Thank you for the information. Yes, not too dis-similar from them.

NeNeko
2010-06-01, 09:40 PM
Thank you DragoonWraith for the reply!


Well, that race is... not really very good for a Paladin. Dex doesn't help much when you will probably be wearing heavy armor, and Con is really, really important. 30 point buy is also going to hurt a Paladin hard-core, since they really need high-to-above-average stats in every ability.
I want to play Paladin because I want to be a lancer(dragoon?). I want to have access to the Rhino Rush spell and I think there are other things that can be put on top of that.


Good options might include Serenity (Paladin Cha-based features switch to Wis; lets you dump Cha), uh... I guess maybe Weapon Finesse and Racial Weapon Proficiency for the Elven Courtblade? Though it's definitely not a Lance, and it costs two feats. No, probably better to use the Lance. OK, well...
Our party relies on a bard for healing. Having a strong 'Lay-on-hands' would be very useful. If I switch from half-elf to human deertaur then I could get an extra feat for being human. Is that worth it for the Serenity feat?


Considering that you're a Paladin of Freedom, though, you should multiclass... Not allowed to multiclass my Paladin. Perhaps I should choose a different class entirely?


Feats: Serenity (1st), Mounted Combat (3rd), Ride-By Attack (6th) - Spirited Charge requires those last two, but you'll have to talk your DM into allowing Ride-By to work, and Mounted Combat will always be irrelevant, but Spirited Charge is what you wanted, right?I get 'Mounted Combat' for free. and do not need the pre-reqs(?) for 'Spirited Charge'


Items: +1 Light Fortification Full-Plate, +1 Lance, +1 Heavy Wooden Shield, Masterwork Longsword, Masterwork Composite (+3) Longbow, mundane gear (backpack, bedroll, tent, etc.), hang on to some cash for upgrading equipment.

No idea what you should do with your levels after this (other than Barbarian as mentioned above), but I recommend against taking Paladin past 5 (if you even can after taking a Barbarian level), you've gotten just about everything there is to get out of it.

Actually, I strongly recommend not being a Paladin at all, but whatever.Lets hear it! Can we stick to the Shield and Lance? Those are staples of my concept(minds eye).



Champion of Corellon Larethian (Races of the Wild): Requires +7 BAB, Mounted Combat (ugh), Dodge (ugh), Mobility (ugh), and Exotic Weapon Proficiency in Elven Thinblade or Elven Courtblade. The Courtblade's probably better. Basically also requires Weapon Finesse. That's a metric ton of feats, and they're all awful (with the exception of Weapon Finesse), so 2 levels of Fighter looks necessary. Could do this with a Paladin base (but again, multiclassed with Fighter, and again Barbarian), but it doesn't really add much. Once you finally get into the class, though, it's pretty good, and gets you Dex to damage, which is really, really nice.

Crusader (Tome of Battle): Basically, a Paladin that works. Doesn't really synergize with your race at all, though. Could be a pretty solid base for entry into Champion of Corellon Larethian, actually, with, again, a 2 level Fighter dip. RHD 3/Fighter 2/Crusader 3 with Dodge, Mobility, Mounted Combat, EWP (Courtblade), and Weapon Finesse is possible at your level, and has +7 BAB, so you can take Champion of Corellon Larethian next level. Pure Crusader is probably still better, but at least the Champion kinda works with your race. This sounds interesting.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-01, 10:11 PM
Thank you DragoonWraith for the reply!
Never a problem.


I want to play Paladin because I want to be a lancer(dragoon?). I want to have access to the Rhino Rush spell and I think there are other things that can be put on top of that.
Paladins are very poorly designed; actually, pretty much all of the Core melee is (the Barbarian's by far the best of the bunch, and can actually be useful a bit). Charging, on the other hand, is extremely effective, and a Valorous Lance + Spirited Charge (you're now doing x4 damage on that Lance attack) is a great way to do it. If you really want to know how far this can go, look up an ubercharger build - they're pretty common. That said, at the high end they're rather inappropriate for actual play, so you will have to limit yourself somewhat. At a guess, your teammates won't be thrilled with you charging in, dealing 1d10+543 damage, and one-shotting stuff.

The other problem with charging is it requires the ability to run in a straight line to a foe. This is easier said then done - difficult terrain, anything that obscures vision, tight and/or windy passages, are all going to cause you problems. This is pretty much reality for all 3.5 melee before Tome of Battle. Charging is one of very few tactics that actually works, but shutting charging down is not difficult.


Our party relies on a bard for healing. Having a strong 'Lay-on-hands' would be very useful. If I switch from half-elf to human deertaur then I could get an extra feat for being human. Is that worth it for the Serenity feat?
Lay on Hands is awful for healing. A Bard can handle healing, as can anyone who can UMD a Wand of Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigor - these are the two most effective methods of healing in the game (a Healing Belt from Magic Item Compendium is useful for not requiring UMD). The main thing is, in-combat healing is exceptionally inefficient. Hideously so. There is almost never a reason to spend a turn in combat healing someone - you will always be much more effective neutralizing a threat (the obvious exception is if someone is actually dying, as in below 0 hp). Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Vigor are the most cost-effective out-of-combat healings, and you can safely rely on those.

The only spell that is actually heals enough to be worth using in combat is Heal, and that's a rather high level spell.

Anyway, Half-Elf is one of the weakest races ever printed for 3.5. Human is one of the strongest. Yes, I recommend Human over Half-Elf. Especially since Champion of Corellon Larethian isn't doing so much for you, since you want to use the Lance.


Not allowed to multiclass my Paladin. Perhaps I should choose a different class entirely?
Why not? According to the rules, all Paladins must begin play as Paladins, and once they take a level in another class, they cannot take more levels of Paladin. This doesn't really matter - once you have Paladin 5, you're pretty much done anyway. Divine Grace is the only feature Paladins get that's actually especially good; otherwise their features range from the "useless" to the "ok but I could get that more easily from a better class". Smite is decent but you never get nearly enough of them to be worthwhile, Turn Undead is awesome with Divine Feats but Clerics get that at level 1, Lay on Hands just doesn't do enough, the anti-poison/disease stuff is useless, Aura of Courage is nice but not that great, etc.

If taking levels in Paladin means going Paladin 20 because of a houserule or whatever, just don't do it. Paladins are awful.


I get 'Mounted Combat' for free. and do not need the pre-reqs(?) for 'Spirited Charge'
Those are both excellent news. Awesome, that saves you some feats, which is very, very nice.


Lets hear it! Can we stick to the Shield and Lance? Those are staples of my concept(minds eye).
Lance is by far the best item to use with charging, since it gets the damage multiplier (seriously, that's amazingly good). Champion of Corellon Larethian focuses on using Longswords, Elven Thinblades, or Elven Courtblades, none of which is a Lance.

The main issue with the Lance is that there's no way to use Weapon Finesse with it or get Dex to damage with it, which means that +4 to Dex is going to get wasted basically no matter what you do. You want high Strength, which means you leave Dex at 8 and take the 12, and use heavy armor, like I had. Luckily even Full-Plate allows 1 Dex to get through, so you do at least get the Dex bonus to AC. This isn't really bad, just seems wasteful, is all.


This sounds interesting.
Well, as I said, Champion of Corellon Larethian isn't going to work the way you want it to, because it's pretty focused on swords and you want to use a Lance. But that frees you up to be not-Elf, so you can do Human and get the Feat, which is awesome.

Then Crusader looks like a good move. You actually get much better healing than the Paladin (much better mostly because you get it even while you're attacking, so you don't have to waste actions on it), and they get access to the White Raven discipline that has quite a few maneuvers that work with charging. So yes, I absolutely recommend you look into Tome of Battle and the Crusader, it would work wonderfully for what you have planned. They also get Cha-to-Will (not all saves), which is pretty solid (Will is the save you really care about here; Reflex isn't that important and you have good Fort anyway). Focus on Devoted Spirit and White Raven Maneuvers, and you'll do just fine.

The Crusader gets an interesting feature where a certain amount of damage they take each round gets "delayed" until the end of their turn, and they do extra damage based on how much damage they've taken. This is a pretty cool thing. Unfortunately, the delayed damage pool is quite small and the damage bonuses are as well, but it's a neat feature anyway.

You could very easily do Crusader 5; the beauty of the Tome of Battle system is that you don't need Full Attacks so often, so Pounce is less important (making that Barbarian dip less important). You can still take the Barbarian level, and it will help you, but it's a pretty even trade I think between the two.

herrhauptmann
2010-06-01, 10:22 PM
That picture Quietus posted, is a Bariaur. One of the best races for doing a 'tauric ubercharger.' There's a few versions of the monster running around, check Manual of Planes, and Planar Handbook for the Bariaur.
My opinion is that the bariaur is far stronger of a 'tauric race' than the actual tauric template. As-is, I believe it only has a measly LA +1, and gives all the benefits of the tauric template.
Now whether your DM would let you still skip the feat prereqs is another question.

NeNeko
2010-06-02, 12:02 AM
That picture Quietus posted, is a Bariaur. One of the best races for doing a 'tauric ubercharger.' There's a few versions of the monster running around, check Manual of Planes, and Planar Handbook for the Bariaur.
My opinion is that the bariaur is far stronger of a 'tauric race' than the actual tauric template. As-is, I believe it only has a measly LA +1, and gives all the benefits of the tauric template.
Now whether your DM would let you still skip the feat prereqs is another question.Thank you for the information on the Bariaur. I checked it out! They are pretty cool. Had I not already put my soul into the deertaur I would have considered it. Also, the Bariaur is a larger than what I wanted to play. That extra horn attack is cool too. Not too usefull with the lance though or do I have that wrong?

DragoonWraith
2010-06-02, 12:09 AM
Thank you for the information on the Bariaur. I checked it out! They are pretty cool. Had I not already put my soul into the deertaur I would have considered it. Also, the Bariaur is a larger than what I wanted to play. That extra horn attack is cool too. Not too usefull with the lance though or do I have that wrong?
If you have Pounce, you full-attack at the end of a Charge. This means Lance (plus iteratives), hoof, hoof in your case, and Bariaur would get the same. You might consider asking your DM to refluff the Bariaur to look like you want to look, maybe with some tweaking to the exact ability modifiers.

Keld Denar
2010-06-02, 01:07 AM
If you have Pounce, you full-attack at the end of a Charge. This means Lance (plus iteratives), hoof, hoof in your case, and Bariaur would get the same.

Doesn't work. Lance is a reach weapon. The rules of charging state:

First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.

Citation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge)

Lance is a reach weapon.

It has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe.

Citation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#lance)

If you charge a foe with your lance, you are required to stop at the max range from which you can attack your foe. That means there is a 5' gap between you and your foe. Your natural weapons won't have reach like your lance. Even if you were large and had natural reach, that would increase the natural reach of your lance out to 20' as well, leaving a 15' gap between you and your foe.

So, you either charge with the lance, or you charge with your natural weapons (although you could charge with a non-reach weapon and still attack with your natural weapons, just not a lance or similar). You can't do both.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-06-02, 03:42 AM
My first advice would be to switch the race to a Tauric Human + Lammasu, you'll get the racial spellcasting ability and natural attacks, flight, etc. and the Lammasu's level adjustment is ignored. Go Prestige Paladin from UA instead since you'll already get Cleric spellcasting, still using Charging Smite, and taking just one Cleric level will get you two more domains with turn undead and it will advance your spellcasting normally. Since you can fly you can make a dive attack, detailed in the DMG, in Races of the Wild under Raptorans, and in Races of the Dragon under Dragonborn. If you charge while flying and descend at least ten feet you deal double damage with a piercing weapon, such as a lance. Be sure to get the Wrath domain for Rhino's Rush, and I'd even get the spontaneous domain casting ACF to do that every time you charge. A Dive Attack with Spirited Charge and Rhino's Rush with a Lance will deal x5 damage, and you can Power Attack two-handed with it. The Spell domain would also be useful to get Anyspell for DMM: Persist Wraithstrike.

NeNeko
2010-06-02, 04:48 AM
My first advice would be to switch the race to a Tauric Human + Lammasu, you'll get the racial spellcasting ability and natural attacks, flight, etc...That is a neat varient. Would be interesting and add alot of elements to the character. Alas, I am soul bound to the deertaur and can not change that aspect.

NeNeko
2010-06-02, 07:19 AM
You might consider asking your DM to refluff the Bariaur to look like you want to look, maybe with some tweaking to the exact ability modifiers.

Crusader has been vetoed by GM (>_<). Nobody has the book and he doesnt have time to read the PDF. I was slightly overwhelmed. Almost like it uses a different combat system. The manuvers remind me of 4e powers.

So, looks like I am going back Pally of Freedom, unless you have any other reccomendations.

Oh, if I switch I to Human I will not get that extra feat becasue that is reserved for pure humans. I am better off with the half-elf version. Also re-examining the Bariaur.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-02, 10:25 AM
Lance is a reach weapon.
Huh, I thought that was a silly image. OK, then, I missed that Lances were a Reach weapon.


Crusader has been vetoed by GM (>_<). Nobody has the book and he doesnt have time to read the PDF. I was slightly overwhelmed. Almost like it uses a different combat system. The manuvers remind me of 4e powers.
It is different, and comparisons to 4e have been made before. However, there are a lot of differences between it and 4e, it's not a complicated system, and most importantly, it works. Still, DM has to know how it works, and if he doesn't have time to learn it, nothing you can do for that. That's a great shame.


So, looks like I am going back Pally of Freedom, unless you have any other reccomendations.
For charging, it looks about as good as anything, at least for 5 levels. I don't know enough about uberchargers, but I suggest googling it and looking into the things they do. You shouldn't do all of those things, but do enough of those things to get your power level around where you want it.


Oh, if I switch I to Human I will not get that extra feat becasue that is reserved for pure humans. I am better off with the half-elf version. Also re-examining the Bariaur.
This is the most mind-bogglingly stupid ruling I've heard in a long time.

NeNeko
2010-06-04, 02:58 AM
This have become quite the bother:smallfrown:
My inability to put a Tauric creature in Heroforge and making it work; on top of the impending deadline is putting totally sterssing me out...

Any Heroforge experts able to help me?