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Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 11:24 AM
I plan on doing the following this sunday:

Sorcerer 5/Sandshaper 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 6/Fatespinner 3/Arcane Avatar 5

What race is "Optimal" that isn't human (preferably, more "Exotic"). And cheesewrought kobold is a nono

we start at lv9 with all books and D&D wiki allowed. Straight 18's across the board for stats

Touchy
2010-06-01, 11:28 AM
Dragonwrought DESERT kobold. :smallamused:

In more seriousness, few non-LA races give CHA without CON loss, so about any that don't give CON loss is good. Hell, non-dragonwrought(/not abusing dragonwrought) kobold is good with races of the dragon.(Then again, I just like kobolds.) so you can gain access to dragon-blooded sorcerer spells.

Edit: More optimally, Dragonborn, since you gain additional CON, take a race with -2 CON penalty, and now you don't lose any CON.

Draz74
2010-06-01, 11:29 AM
Lesser Aasimar comes to mind.

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 11:31 AM
I'm allowed up to 2 LA to play with

Touchy
2010-06-01, 11:34 AM
I'm allowed up to 2 LA to play with

Buyoff? Because otherwise it's still not worth it.

Octopus Jack
2010-06-01, 11:34 AM
Lesser Aasimar comes to mind.

+1 to this, no drawbacks or LA... Let the fun begin! :smallbiggrin:

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 11:35 AM
+1 to this, no drawbacks or LA... Let the fun begin! :smallbiggrin:

My DM is ignoring up to 2LA

Octopus Jack
2010-06-01, 11:41 AM
My DM is ignoring up to 2LA


OK throw some templates on yourself as well :smallbiggrin: just need to think of some good LA+2 ones

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-01, 11:44 AM
My DM is ignoring up to 2LA

Death-touched (Dragon 313) have +1 LA and grant +4 Cha, -2 Con, +2 Wis with a favored class of Sorcerer.

The Draconic template (Races of the Dragon) grants +2 Con, +2 Str, +2 Cha for +1 LA.

So a Draconic Death-Touched has +2 Str, +2 Wis, +6 Cha and an LA of +2. Works out pretty well without being too cheesy. You get some other nice stuff, too.

The Half-Fey Template (Fiend Folio) has +2 LA and grants +4 Cha along with a few spell-like abilities based on HD and you gain a flight speed and DR to boot. It does have -2 Con though. Oh, also, charm person at will.

The Half-Nymph template (Dragon 313) is also +2 LA and has nothing but bonuses, including +4 Cha. The Awesome Beauty ability is good against humanoids, even with its low DC (it is based on racial hit dice), since enemies in range must make a new check every round even if they had previously succeeded on the save. Half-Nymphs are always female.

The Half-Vampire template (Libris Mortis) is one of my favorites at LA +2. You get to be a vampire without the 1,001 weaknesses. A mere +2 Charisma, though.

The Entropic template (Planar Handbook) is LA +2, +2 Cha and grants a ranged touch attack that deals negative energy damage based on Charisma.

The Fire-Souled template (Dragon 314) is ridiculous at LA +1, granting the Leadership feat for free, +4 Cha, haste 1/day, immunity to stunning and daze and the ability to screw up other creature's Charisma-based attacks. Good luck getting it past your DM, but combine it with another +1 LA race or template and go to town if you can. A Fire-Souled Deathtouched will get:


The [Fire] subtype (along with its immunity/vulnerabilities)
Leadership
Immunity to stunning and daze
Haste 1/day
Chill Touch 1/day
Overwhelming Passion (Screw up others' Cha-based attacks)
Morale bonuses to allies
Fire Immunity
Cold Vulnerability
Cold Resistance 5
Electric Resistance 5
-2 Con
+2 Wis
+8 Charisma
+2 Level Adjustment


The immunity to dazing is quite nice as you can cast celerity all day long with no side-effects.

More detailed info is available on CrystalKeep and the relevant books.

A note on the 'ignoring +2 LA' thing. I tried this for awhile in the campaign I run. The idea was that everyone starts at the same level, but those who chose to take level adjustments gained experience based on their ECL. Every six levels, they could reduce their LA by 1 (for free).

It didn't work out so well and now I rather regret the decision, but can't really rescind it.

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 11:45 AM
Maybe Deepwyrm Drow?

Touchy
2010-06-01, 11:45 AM
My DM is ignoring up to 2LA

Oh, then go for something specifically with 2LA, simply because those can be "Better".

White Dragonspawn(Dragonlance campaign setting) Dragonborn(Races of the dragon) Spellscale(races of the dragon). +1 LA, you start with +1 caster level, and a whole lot of natural armor(You'll make the fighter cry).

We still have 1 LA(Or two if you have dragons of Kyrn), your stats look like this.

+2 con +2 Cha +7 natural armor, and you cast as a second level sorcerer at level 1, so your abit ahead of the wizard, and you still have dragonblood spells.


Edit: Did I mention you make your fighter cry, and nevermind, I'm guessing you want a more traditional sorcerer, so go his way for more CHA.

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 11:48 AM
Oh, then go for something specifically with 2LA, simply because those can be "Better".

White Dragonspawn(Dragonlance campaign setting) Dragonborn(Races of the dragon) Spellscale(races of the dragon). +1 LA, you start with +1 caster level, and a whole lot of natural armor(You'll make the fighter cry).

We still have 1 LA(Or two if you have dragons of Kyrn), your stats look like this.

+2 con +2 Cha +7 natural armor, and you cast as a second level sorcerer at level 1, so your abit ahead of the wizard, and you still have dragonblood spells.


Edit: Did I mention you make your fighter cry, and nevermind, I'm guessing you want a more traditional sorcerer, so go his way for more CHA.

Might Combo this with that Death-Touched template above

Touchy
2010-06-01, 11:49 AM
Might Combo this with that Death-Touched template above

Note: If your DM has dragons of Kryn, the template was nerfed, if you don't stay dominated by the dragon, you count as +2 LA, so if you don't use that book you're good to go with that method.

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 11:51 AM
Note: If your DM has dragons of Kryn, the template was nerfed, if you don't stay dominated by the dragon, you count as +2 LA, so if you don't use that book you're good to go with that method.

was the plan.

Gnaeus
2010-06-01, 11:52 AM
If the first 2 LA are free, I would consider Pixie. Good stats, constant flight and superior invisibility, DR, SR 22+, and spell likes might be worth a loss of 2 caster levels.

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 11:57 AM
Lesser Aasimar + Saint (+2 LA), very thematically appropriate. (Saint even gives you back the "Outsider" status you lost to be a Lesser Aasimar, in addition to its other great benefits.)

From there, go into Exalted Arcanist and Archmage.

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-01, 11:58 AM
Looks like lots of posts were made while I was editing in some additions. I endorse the Fire-Souled Death-Touched because it is crazy.

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 11:59 AM
Lesser Aasimar + Saint (+2 LA), very thematically appropriate. (Saint even gives you back the "Outsider" status you lost to be a Lesser Aasimar, in addition to its other great benefits.)

From there, go into Exalted Arcanist and Archmage.

Might take the Exalted Arcanist, but am using Arcane Avatar from Mongoose's Quintessential Wizard

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 12:05 PM
Might take the Exalted Arcanist, but am using Arcane Avatar from Mongoose's Quintessential Wizard

What are the benefits of that one?

Exalted Arcanist is an excellent addition. Not only does its theme dovetail perfectly with Aasimar and Sainthood, but you get two bonus spells known at each level of the PrC. This includes the Planar Ally line, which allows you to qualify for Thaumaturgist if you choose to be a summoner. In addition, you can double-dip - Use your Exalted Metamagic feats (Consecrate Spell, Purify Spell and one other) to qualify for both Sainthood and for EA.

The capstone adds every sanctified spell in the game to your spells known, giving your list a huge boost.

Total Ability Adjustments for a Lesser Aasimar Saint: +4 Wis, +6 Cha, +2 Con. (Did I mention Saint gives you Wis to AC?)

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-01, 12:05 PM
Might take the Exalted Arcanist, but am using Arcane Avatar from Mongoose's Quintessential Wizard

Mmm cheese. I played an Arcane Avatar once. It was made worse because I convinced the DM to let me PrC into it at level 11 by use of a wish the character had acquired.

Using 2 spell slots to cast any spell of the same or lower level is ridiculous. Just make sure you don't bog the game down by leafing through books to decide what to cast.


White Dragonspawn(Dragonlance campaign setting) Dragonborn(Races of the dragon) Spellscale(races of the dragon)... ahead of the wizard

In caster level, such a character will be ahead of the wizard, but in spell advancement, he will only be on par (which granted is still a great boost to the sorcerer).


What are the benefits of that one?
The (Arcanist's) capstone adds every sanctified spell in the game to your spells known, giving your list a huge boost.

The Arcane Avatar gets SR, -1 adjustment to any two metamagics, access to every sorcerer/wizard spell, counterspelling without expending spells, the ability to recover spells, antimagic field, and the ability to increase the DCs of all spells in an area.

The 'Call Spell' ability is gained at level 3 of the PrC, but specifically mentions "when preparing spells for the day, the Avatar may sacrifice two spell slots of a given level to prepare one spell of the same level from his spell lists". The downside of this is that it doesn't appear that a spontaneous caster gains any benefit from this. The upside is that it calls out "spell lists" rather than specifically arcane lists. This means a 1-level dip into another class -- say, cleric -- grants access to the cleric lists as a wizard.

We must've houseruled some stuff in the campaign I'm remembering.

aivanther
2010-06-01, 12:11 PM
Half-Nymph lesser aasimar. +6 Charisma and Awesome Beauty.

Half fey is sweet to, but you have the -2 Constitution. But 2x movespeed flight, at will Charm, a bunch o' SLA and immunity to Enchantment is just fun.

deuxhero
2010-06-01, 12:13 PM
Are human variants acceptble?

If not, Strongheart Halfing+templates.

balistafreak
2010-06-01, 12:23 PM
The Fire-Souled template (Dragon 314) is ridiculous at LA +1 -

OBJECTION!

I refused to believe that template was that good when I saw it. (Free feats, especially Leadership, for LA on a template? I dig.) Crystal Keep lists it as LA +1, but it's unfortunately CR +1, not LA +1. It's LA +3 from its original source, Dragon Magazine. Someone screwed up there. :smallannoyed:

And I'll agree that "free LA" campaigns get really degenerate, really fast.

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-01, 12:29 PM
OBJECTION!

I refused to believe that template was that good when I saw it. (Free feats, especially Leadership, for LA on a template? I dig.) Crystal Keep lists it as LA +1, but it's unfortunately CR +1, not LA +1. It's LA +3 from its original source, Dragon Magazine. Someone screwed up there.

Aha. My mistake. I thought there was something wrong with it, too. That's what I get for not double-checking sources.

I'm tempted to finish off the Crystal Keep indexes from where they left off because of mistakes like this, but I don't think I'd be able to share the fruits of such labors.


And I'll agree that "free LA" campaigns get really degenerate, really fast.
It wasn't so bad in the beginning, but my campaigns tend to be a bit deadly and the inevitable new character rotation resulted in more and more ridiculous monsters joining the party. The player of the sole remaining character from the original group was left feeling punished for playing intelligently and not getting himself killed.

Darrin
2010-06-01, 12:32 PM
The Fire-Souled template (Dragon 314) is ridiculous at LA +1


That's a typo in the Crystalkeep PDF. As printed in Dragon #314, the Fire-Souled template is LA +3.--ninja

Best LA +0 race for a sorcerer is probably Magic-Blooded Spellscale: -2 Con, -2 Wis, +4 Cha. Magic-Blooded is from Dragon #306 (LA +0, applies -2 Wis/+2 Cha to any base race). Spellscales are from Races of the Dragon. Spellscales start with an ability bonus on a casting stat along with something similar to a bonus feat. They get this daily meditation thingy that can give them a temporary feat for the day, most of which are metamagic related. Unfortunately, you can't use the feat for qualify for other feats/PrCs/etc. Fluff-wise I actually prefer Star Elves (Unapproachable East, also a -2 Con +2 Cha race), but crunch-wise the Spellscales have an advantage with the meditation/feat thingy, even though it can't be used to qualify for other metamagic feats.

Add Half-Nymph or Half-Fey on top of either of those for extra-sparkly awesomesauce.

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 01:05 PM
Might take a Lesser Aasimar Saint/Magic-Blooded Death-Touched Shadow Dragonspawn Spellscale with the Arcane Avatar. DM ruled that it works both ways (the cast spell thingy). Which ever 1's the better...

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-01, 01:22 PM
Might take a Lesser Aasimar Saint/Magic-Blooded Death-Touched Shadow Dragonspawn Spellscale with the Arcane Avatar. DM ruled that it works both ways (the cast spell thingy). Which ever 1's the better...

Check the Book of Exalted Deeds. Saint is a pain to qualify for:



In order to qualify for sainthood, a character must meet the following qualifications, as well as any additional requirements set by the DM:

Good alignment
Three Exalted feats
Must never have lost the benefit of any exalted feat
Must at all times behave in a way the DM considers to be exemplary of the exalted path
Must be at least 6th level
Must make an extraordinary sacrifice


Where's Shadow Dragonspawn listed?

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 01:25 PM
Check the Book of Exalted Deeds. Saint is a pain to qualify for:

But worthwhile in the end, being a descendant of Astral Devas and all...


Where's Shadow Dragonspawn listed?

Using Shadow Dragon from Faerun, with Dragonspawn as the backdrop, build it to match the flavor of being the Spawn of Shadow Dragons

Greenish
2010-06-01, 01:28 PM
Magic-Blooded Dragonic Aasimar isn't probably the strongest option, but it's pretty nifty. Outsider type(!), dragonblood subtype, native subtype, +6 Cha, +2 Strength, +2 Con.

[Edit]: And some natural armour, claws and so forth.

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-01, 01:31 PM
Using Shadow Dragon from Faerun, with Dragonspawn as the backdrop, build it to match the flavor of being the Spawn of Shadow Dragons

That's between you and your DM, I suppose. Make sure you tie the ability modifiers to the proper LA.


Magic-Blooded Dragonic Aasimar isn't probably the strongest option, but it's pretty nifty. Outsider type(!), dragonblood subtype, native subtype, +6 Cha, +2 Strength, +2 Con.

What's so great about having the Outsider type as a character?

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 01:37 PM
What's so great about having the Outsider type as a character?

Lots of Alter Form cheese. Would you like Astral Deva or Golden Protector flavor?

Greenish
2010-06-01, 01:40 PM
What's so great about having the Outsider type as a character?Alter Self, you're not vulnerable to spells that target humanoids, there are no Bane weapons keyed on you, proficiency with all simple and martial weapons (nifty for going gish) and bragging rights.

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 01:41 PM
Check the Book of Exalted Deeds. Saint is a pain to qualify for:

I don't think the level 6 bit is a problem - he seems to be planning all the way to 20.

Besides, all he really needs are the alignment and feats. He can write all the fluff stuff (the sacrifice etc.) into his backstory and that's that. If he wants Exalted Arcanist, he'll be going for Exalted Feats anyway - Saint kills two birds with one stone.

Saint is very much worth it - Wis to AC, become an Outsider, double-strength MCaE and LGoI at-will, +2 untyped to all his save DCs, fast healing 10, angelic immunities, fire resistance, and always-on Tongues. It's good even with LA - with LA removed, it becomes insane in a hurry.

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 01:43 PM
I don't think the level 6 bit is a problem - he seems to be planning all the way to 20.

Besides, all he really needs are the alignment and feats. He can write all the fluff stuff (the sacrifice etc.) into his backstory and that's that. If he wants Exalted Arcanist, he'll be going for Exalted Feats anyway - Saint kills two birds with one stone.

Saint is very much worth it - Wis to AC, become an Outsider, double-strength MCaE and LGoI at-will, +2 untyped to all his save DCs, fast healing 10, angelic immunities, fire resistance, and always-on Tongues. It's good even with LA - with LA removed, it becomes insane in a hurry.

the question lies, is it better than the earlier spellscale suggestion?

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 01:49 PM
the question lies, is it better than the earlier spellscale suggestion?

While I do love Spellscales, taking Con penalties when you're already playing a class with a weak fort save and low hit die is not a good idea in my estimation. It sounds like you're going to be in a high-power game, so be careful to avoid disadvantages like that if you can.

Draz74
2010-06-01, 01:50 PM
OK, ignoring +2 LA ...

Half-Fey is a lot of fun, and was the first thing I thought of, but yeah, the Constitution penalty is unfortunate. Perhaps you could combine it with something that has a Constitution bonus? Dwarf would be interesting, although its Charisma penalty is bad. Hmmm, Half-Fey Gold Dwarf? Or Half-Fey Dragonborn Lesser Aasimar?

What no one has mentioned: Phrenic! +4 Charisma, and a rather lovely array of useful Psi-Like Abilities to make your Sorcerer more versatile.

Phrenic Lesser Aasimar is a pretty impressive start to a Sorcerer, yeah.

monkey3
2010-06-01, 01:50 PM
Wow, lots of posts, and no one said Hellbred?

Look it up in Fiendish Codex (can't remember 1 or 2).

Star elf also gives +2 chr.

Oh, and MoAO should be taken to 7 or 4 (not 6).

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 01:51 PM
Wow, lots of posts, and no one said Hellbred?

Look it up in Fiendish Codex (can't remember 1 or 2).

all good options. Maybe even a Hellbred Saint?

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-01, 01:54 PM
Alter Self, you're not vulnerable to spells that target humanoids, there are no Bane weapons keyed on you, proficiency with all simple and martial weapons (nifty for going gish) and bragging rights.

Alter Self makes sense, but I didn't think you gained the proficiencies without Racial Hit Dice in Outsider. The Aasimar block doesn't include them.


Wow, lots of posts, and no one said Hellbred?

Look it up in Fiendish Codex (can't remember 1 or 2).

Fiendish Codex II, pg 78. The ability to cast [Evil] spells is kind of wasted on a Saint, though, unless your DM is very lenient with the Saint restrictions. The very concept is awesome though.

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 01:55 PM
Alter Self makes sense, but I didn't think you gained the proficiencies without Racial Hit Dice in Outsider. The Aasimar block doesn't include them.

it gains the Outsider traits, thus outsider proficiencies

Greenish
2010-06-01, 01:56 PM
Alter Self makes sense, but I didn't think you gained the proficiencies without Racial Hit Dice in Outsider. The Aasimar block doesn't include them.It doesn't have to include them, because it notes that aasimar are Outsiders:
An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 02:03 PM
Hellbred and Star Elf run into the same problems as Spellscale - namely, the -2 Con. (Unless you go Body Aspect Hellbred, but I'd consider -2 to your casting stat even worse.)

Hellbred lets you qualify for Devil-Touched Feats without selling your soul... but none of them are all that good. (What a rip-off!) The Spellscale meditations give you more useful feats, and do so without using up your feat slots, so I would go with that if you must use a -Con race.

Cha-Hellbred do get telepathy at level 15, making them eligible for Mindsight, though it comes a bit late.

Hellbred is better if you want to play an "evil" character (i.e. cast Evil spells and use Evil items) in a good party without riling up the paladin. A Sorcerer gets less benefit from that aspect than a divine caster would.

Star Elves I don't know a great deal about. Do they get anything besides the stat adjustments, and elf-ness? If not, skip.

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 02:06 PM
Hellbred and Star Elf run into the same problems as Spellscale - namely, the -2 Con. (Unless you go Body Aspect Hellbred, but I'd consider -2 to your casting stat even worse.)

Hellbred lets you qualify for Devil-Touched Feats without selling your soul... but none of them are all that good. (What a rip-off!) The Spellscale meditations give you more useful feats, and do so without using up your feat slots, so I would go with that if you must use a -Con race.

Cha-Hellbred do get telepathy at level 15, making them eligible for Mindsight, though it comes a bit late.

Hellbred is better if you want to play an "evil" character (i.e. cast Evil spells and use Evil items) in a good party without riling up the paladin. A Sorcerer gets less benefit from that aspect than a divine caster would.

Star Elves I don't know a great deal about. Do they get anything besides the stat adjustments, and elf-ness? If not, skip.

I dislike elves

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 02:09 PM
I dislike elves

As do I :smalltongue: I'm merely pointing out your options.

I staunchly recommend Lesser Aasimar, even if you do without Sainthood and EA.

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 02:14 PM
As do I :smalltongue: I'm merely pointing out your options.

I staunchly recommend Lesser Aasimar, even if you do without Sainthood and EA.

so you suggest Teh Official Mr. Goody Two-Shoes?

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 02:18 PM
so you suggest Teh Official Mr. Goody Two-Shoes?

Aasimar (both kinds) can be Evil or Neutral just fine. Just skip Sainthood and go with another template. (I believe someone mentioned Phrenic - also a good choice.)

I'm just recommending Saint because it has both power and flavor synergy. (I also love the idea that sorcerer powers can come from celestials rather than dragons, hence EA.)

Machiavellian
2010-06-01, 02:20 PM
Aasimar (both kinds) can be Evil or Neutral just fine. Just skip Sainthood and go with another template. (I believe someone mentioned Phrenic - also a good choice.)

I'm just recommending Saint because it has both power and flavor synergy. (I also love the idea that sorcerer powers can come from celestials rather than dragons, hence EA.)

so drop fatespinner for EA, and voila?

Draz74
2010-06-01, 02:21 PM
(I believe someone mentioned Phrenic - also a good choice.)

Or Half-Fey Dragonborn. That sounds more fun to me, out of the two template combos I recommended for Lesser Aasimar. But Phrenic is still a good choice.

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 02:26 PM
so drop fatespinner for EA, and voila?

Personally I would drop MotAO. With the 10 bonus spells* from EA (not counting all the Sanctified ones you get for free at EA 5), you shouldn't need a spellpool. This also frees up the feats you would have blown on Cooperative Spell and Arcane Preparation.

Fatespinner... is filler. Decent filler, but I'd probably go with Archmage instead.

*EDIT: Scratch that, you only get two bonus spells when you enter the PrC, not two at each level. While that weakens it somewhat, you still get two bonus feats in 5 levelw and all the sancitifed spells at the capstone.

Touchy
2010-06-01, 02:36 PM
While I do love Spellscales, taking Con penalties when you're already playing a class with a weak fort save and low hit die is not a good idea in my estimation. It sounds like you're going to be in a high-power game, so be careful to avoid disadvantages like that if you can.

Actually with my plan, he gains +2 CON and 7 natural armor(Make that fighter CRY), an additional CASTER LEVEL from 1 LA, thanks to both white dragonspawn and dragonborn, I'm not sure what Death-touched does, so no comment.

Edit: Then again, I can see you're much better at optimizing then me, but I still like my path, because you can't lose your heritage, you can lose the saint template however.

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 02:44 PM
+7 Natural AC is good, but Natural Armor does not protect against touch attacks. Insight/Deflection AC does, which Saint will give him. :smallsmile:

Assuming starting Wis of 10:

+1 Insight AC Lesser Aasimar (+2 Wis)
+1 Insight AC Saint (+2 Wis)
+4 Deflection AC: 2x strength at-will Magic Circle AE

= +6 AC that applies to both touch and regular attacks.

EDIT:


Edit: Then again, I can see you're much better at optimizing then me, but I still like my path, because you can't lose your heritage, you can lose the saint template however.

Thank you for the compliment, but compared to some on this board, I am no great optimizer at all. I just have a good memory for what others have said before me, as well as what is written in the splats that I like. :smallsmile:

sofawall
2010-06-01, 02:48 PM
Actually with my plan, he gains +2 CON and 7 natural armor(Make that fighter CRY), an additional CASTER LEVEL from 1 LA

Lemme stop you right there. White Dragonspawn who keeps free will is an LA +3.

Eldariel
2010-06-01, 03:41 PM
Lots of Alter Form cheese. Would you like Astral Deva or Golden Protector flavor?

One of the most notable Alter Self-forms for early Outsider is the Dwarven Ancestor. The most notable boon? +18 Natural Armor. Add Scintillating Scales and you're talking +18 Deflection Armor or a total of 28 base Touch AC with only two level 2 spells (well, ok, Dwarf Ancestor is Large so only 27), though Scintillating only lasts 1 minute/level (still pretty good).

Others are movement modes like Flight that are of limited availability at Humanoid (though e.g. Avariel is a wonderful flying form for humanoids and there is another) but quite easy to gain on Outsider. That and Outsiders come with decent natural weapon options.


However, the biggest advantage is Polymorph. On level 7, an Outsider Sorcerer can gain all the sick extraordinary special attacks, stats and so on that Outsiders wield. Arrow Demon is a 10 HD creature, for example (with some trickery and a handy Bard, you could be one for some duration already on level 8) and comes with...rather mediocre stats but absolutely turbocharges any kind of an archer gish build, so much so that just about any archer should always be polymorphed into one in a game where polymorph is available.

You also gain amazing stat spreads like Horned Devil's a few levels early and overall, the benefits of Outsider-type with a shapechanger race are just so amazing that the Otherworldly-feat [PGtF] is a very, very good investment for anyone not a native Outsider (Star Elves [UE] qualify by region, being from Sildeyuir, and make nice use of it). Indeed, it's the way I'd start with most Sorcerer Gish-builds that aren't horribly feat-starved (rare though they may be; not getting Martial Wizard bonuses hurts); getting free MWPs, awesome Alter Self and Polymorph power, free nightly Ghost Touch (courtesy of Star Elves) and so on is just incredible. Neraphim are actually quite poor with it since their racial NA is replaced by the new form's NA. Though the cost of a feat is not to be understated and is indeed huge.

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 04:07 PM
Neraphim are actually quite poor with it since their racial NA is replaced by the new form's NA.

Would the Insight bonus to AC stay through the form changes?

Eldariel
2010-06-01, 04:28 PM
Would the Insight bonus to AC stay through the form changes?

Conveniently, it's not typed. Most sources of Insight-bonus are supernatural (they're quite common in Psionics and Incarnum, with few spells that use them too; there are some Ex sources too though, such as Knowledge Devotion) and due to the nature of the Saint-template, that would seem a logical classification but as it isn't explicitly defined as such and that would mean it should turn off in an AMF (which is a major enough matter that I'd think they'd define the bonus as such if it were), so educated guess would say "Extraordinary", which would be lost with Alter Self. Supernatural wouldn't, of course, but again that is certainly not RAW and seems unlikely.

There's the whole ugly nonsense that is "natural abilities", but I'm not touching that with a 10' pole; I'd rather not be giving people spellcasting with Polymorph, thank you very much. It also has all manners of other funny implications, which I'd rather not consider.

Darrin
2010-06-01, 04:50 PM
Star Elves I don't know a great deal about. Do they get anything besides the stat adjustments, and elf-ness?

"Otherwordly Touch", basically free Ghost Touch effect on any armor or melee weapon they wear/wield. Other than that, no... and they don't get elven weapon proficiencies, so no Dark Chaos Shuffle shennanigans, either.

Eldariel
2010-06-01, 04:58 PM
"Otherwordly Touch", basically free Ghost Touch effect on any armor or melee weapon they wear/wield. Other than that, no... and they don't get elven weapon proficiencies, so no Dark Chaos Shuffle shennanigans, either.

But if you care, you probably want Otherworldly anyways which just so happens to get them all martial weapons regardless. Flawless victory!

Optimystik
2010-06-01, 07:08 PM
Okay, I'm back with my books.

Saint: You're right, the AC bonus is untyped, making it a natural ability. It would thus stay unaffected during shapeshifts - another point in Saint's favor. The Magic Circle aura would also stay due to being (Su).]

I also cracked open UE. The Star Elf Ghost Touch is nice, but it only works at night - so you'd need a nocturnal party to really take advantage of it. But I guess that's when Wraiths would be descending on you anyways :smallbiggrin:

Machiavellian
2010-06-02, 11:20 AM
decided on the Aasimar (lesser) Saint and dropping both MotAO and Fatespinner in favor of Exalted Arcanist. That way, I can absorb the best of being Mr. Goody Two-Shoes. Plus, I'm taking the Celestial Heritage (DMC) feat for More Spells Known (sorcerer's major Weakness) and taking Exalted Familiar and the Celestial Variant Familiar to have a Celestial Lantern Eladrin with an essentially free Heal Now! ability. I also am taking legendary (forgot whaw book) which gives me Stat Boosts and Feats a level earlier. This means I can spend all of my stat bonuses on Wis and Cha. Welcome to EPIC AC

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 11:40 AM
You should still fit another PrC in there - EA is only 5 levels long and Sorcerer gets zero class features, so dropping both MotAO and Fatespinner leaves 5 levels to play with (4 if you are still going with Sandshaper 1.)

I recommend Archmage if you're going the blaster/controller route, and Thaumaturgist if you're going the summoner route.

Machiavellian
2010-06-02, 11:43 AM
You should still fit another PrC in there - EA is only 5 levels long and Sorcerer gets zero class features, so dropping both MotAO and Fatespinner leaves 5 levels to play with (4 if you are still going with Sandshaper 1.)

I recommend Archmage if you're going the blaster/controller route, and Thaumaturgist if you're going the summoner route.

I can't qualify for BOTH Archmage and Arcane Avatar (both require 8th level casting and 4 feats to pick up)

ScionoftheVoid
2010-06-02, 11:51 AM
If you have four levels to work with (assuming you take Sand Shaper) you may well want to just put in the first four levels of Fatespinner, sure it's filler but it's better than more Sorcerer levels and the last level is the only one that loses casting progression. Unless you drop a level somewhere you don't have the space to take that level anyway and lose nothing but prerequisite skill points (and possibly feats, I don't have Complete Arcane on hand at the moment).

Machiavellian
2010-06-02, 11:52 AM
If you have four levels to work with (assuming you take Sand Shaper) you may well want to just put in the first four levels of Fatespinner, sure it's filler but it's better than more Sorcerer levels and the last level is the only one that loses casting progression. Unless you drop a level somewhere you don't have the space to take that level anyway and lose nothing but prerequisite skill points (and possibly feats, I don't have Complete Arcane on hand at the moment).

what good does 5 levels in Fatespinner do for him (AFBATM). And not doing SS becasue I no longer qualify

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 12:06 PM
I can't qualify for BOTH Archmage and Arcane Avatar (both require 8th level casting and 4 feats to pick up)

With the cheesy reading of Vow of Poverty you could :smalltongue: But no, I won't advocate that...

Fatespinner is an okay choice then, but there are probably better ones. Maybe Abjurant Champion?


what good does 5 levels in Fatespinner do for him (AFBATM). And not doing SS becasue I no longer qualify

The Fatespinner capstone lets you add 10 or minus 10 to the saving throw of an enemy or ally you can see, no save no SR. Sounds cool but there are three huge drawbacks - the first is the lost CL, the second is that you can only do it 1/day, and the third is that it doesn't work on enemies with more HD than you have. This is doubly problematic since you have a template (Saint) which all but guarantees your HD will be lower than those of any enemy you'd want to use this on.

Machiavellian
2010-06-02, 12:09 PM
With the cheesy reading of Vow of Poverty you could :smalltongue: But no, I won't advocate that...

Fatespinner is an okay choice then, but there are probably better ones. Maybe Abjurant Champion?



The Fatespinner capstone lets you add 10 or minus 10 to the saving throw of an enemy or ally you can see, no save no SR. Sounds cool but there are three huge drawbacks - the first is the lost CL, the second is that you can only do it 1/day, and the third is that it doesn't work on enemies with more HD than you have. This is doubly problematic since you have a template (Saint) which all but guarantees your HD will be lower than those of any enemy you'd want to use this on.

I'm a Glass Cannon-type caster (low HP, but insane casting damage) and I wear no armor. Why in Sheogorath's Name would I take Abjurant Champ as a Sorcerer?!

and I think Fatespinner is a WASTE at lv5, so I need something better

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 12:14 PM
I'm a Glass Cannon-type caster (low HP, but insane casting damage) and I wear no armor. Why in Sheogorath's Name would I take Abjurant Champ as a Sorcerer?!

Because (a) it's full BAB and full casting (which will make your attack roll spells, like rays and orbs, easier to hit with), (b) it's 5 levels long and thus fills your gap, (c) it auto-extends and auto-quickens abjuration spells for free, and (d) it makes your defensive AC-granting spells more effective, which is important if you aren't wearing armor as you say.

Saint gives you the MWP you need to qualify, therefore all you need is one feat (Combat Casting).

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 12:15 PM
I think Deathtouched is a race not a Template. Could be wrong though.

Draz74
2010-06-02, 12:27 PM
This is doubly problematic since you have a template (Saint) which all but guarantees your HD will be lower than those of any enemy you'd want to use this on.

Wait; I thought this whole thread was about a campaign where LA +2 was being waived, and thus wouldn't actually lower the character's Hit Dice?

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 01:03 PM
Wait; I thought this whole thread was about a campaign where LA +2 was being waived, and thus wouldn't actually lower the character's Hit Dice?

Ah right, forgot. Even so, a Big Bad will probably have more HD than the party.

And even if Seal Fate works without a hitch every time, the 1/day and dead casting level hurt it a great deal.

Machiavellian
2010-06-02, 01:37 PM
Because (a) it's full BAB and full casting (which will make your attack roll spells, like rays and orbs, easier to hit with), (b) it's 5 levels long and thus fills your gap, (c) it auto-extends and auto-quickens abjuration spells for free, and (d) it makes your defensive AC-granting spells more effective, which is important if you aren't wearing armor as you say.

Saint gives you the MWP you need to qualify, therefore all you need is one feat (Combat Casting).

I am not based on Abjuration. I'm (more or less) a blaster/nuker

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 01:44 PM
I am not based on Abjuration. I'm (more or less) a blaster/nuker

Go for disintegrate. It might not be optimized (I really don't know) but it's a laser beam! How can you say no to that?

Greenish
2010-06-02, 01:45 PM
I am not based on Abjuration. I'm (more or less) a blaster/nukerAnd how does full BAB make you worse blaster/nuker?

Machiavellian
2010-06-02, 01:47 PM
And how does full BAB make you worse blaster/nuker?

I have little reason to boost Abjuration if I'm at the back of the party dropping 5th level nuke spells on anything unfriendly. Besides, thats what the 3 melee monkeys and 1 rogue are for...