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taylorbrooke123
2010-06-01, 06:55 PM
Ok, this is probably my first or second time ever using a forum, so be gentle. But here's the deal, I'm a long time player first time DM for a DnD 3.5 game. The problem is, I really want my campaign to be plot driven and have lots of interesting twists and turns, but it seems like nothing happens in my game but my players reacting to the bad stuff that happens to them. They don't really have a purpose... and I'm having a hard time fixing that. I know I show signs of being a bad DM and that's what I don't want, so let me explain a little bit of what is happening in this campaign:

This game takes place in the land of Septaria (the 7th Kingdom). Septaria is a thriving nation. 25 years pre-game the kingdom was in the midst of a terrible war with the neighboring country of Algoth, and the king had yet to produce an heir with his queen. In desperation he seeks out clerics and mages from across the land to try and solve his plight.

After months of no success a beautiful sorceress arrives at the castle and promises the king that she can remedy his wife and promises that not only will he have one child, but many, if he but signs a contract saying that the first born child will be given to her to do with as she pleases. The king, at his wits end and the treasury running low, agrees, and the contract is signed.
The queen becomes pregnant the very next day but nine months later the king is thrilled to hear from the midwife that the queen has delivered identical twin boys. The king, thinking quickly and knowing that the sorceress is on her way to the castle, decides to hide the true first born babe with the servants and when the spellcaster arrives he gives her the second born boy.

Realizing that the true heir cannot be safe in the castle, the king and queen send their infant son to be raised by the castle's master-at-arms and the queens personal handmaiden on the road in Septaria as merchants (this son is a PC, Elias.) And, yeah... now the PC's are 4th level and have barely touched this plot at all... and I know it's my fault, but I'd like any advice you guys might have to fix it. The PC's have been attacked by assassins, hinting that the sorceress (Syxara) knows of Elias's existence.
My PC's are as follows:
Elias (Prince, human) 4th Lvl Swashbuckler
Malik (elf) 4th Lvl Druid
Sir Jett (human) 4th Lvl Knight
Bridget (human) 4th Lvl Rogue

The main bad girl is Syxara, who is actually a harvester devil and plans on marrying Enharen (the other twin, he's not evil and has actually escaped Syxara) to gain control of all of Septaria.

I know all this stuff is long winded and a pretty weak plot, but any advice is welcome.

AstralFire
2010-06-01, 07:00 PM
Are the players getting engaged with the NPCs to any significant degree?

Greenish
2010-06-01, 07:02 PM
Squeeze the players until motivations for their PCs drip out!

AstralFire
2010-06-01, 07:03 PM
Squeeze the players until motivations for their PCs drip out!

That's not motivation. :smalleek:

Greenish
2010-06-01, 07:06 PM
That's not motivation. :smalleek:I mean that the characters should have something they wish to accomplish, something that will motivate them to take action. You just squeeze what it is out of your players.

Fri
2010-06-01, 07:14 PM
Give them a quest that leads them into the main plot. "Half" Forcing a quest isn't railroading in my opinion. Forcing how they could finish it is railroading. Especially if this is a "plot based campaign" rather than a "free roaming campaign"

First, what is the main plot? To kill that evil sorceress that's masquerading as a good guy?

Have a quest that give them a lead that the sorceress might not be a good guy. Give them multiple lead, even. Have them decide which lead to follow.

So on, so on. Give them some side quest, or free roaming, but don't forget to leave a trail of plot once in a while. One lead leads to another lead, and you can figure out the rest yourself.

And yeah, don't forget about your pc's motivation. What's their motivation? to be famous? to solve all wrongdoings in the kingdom? To be rich? use their motivation as a hook for the quest trails

ninjaneer003
2010-06-01, 07:15 PM
Well the main bad guy doesn't really have a lot going for her i mean she lost the second son. You could introduce the second son as a character to the party and have him lead them on a quest. What's this socerress going to do now that she's lost the second son, is she going to try to get him back, if so then you could have your characters rescue him. or if the socerress is crazy enough she could start trying to take over the country by force lying/actually being married to the second son and claiming her right over the kingdom. If she succeds then you could have your characters act as a resistance.

With a sorceress you can do all kinds of things.

You could try getting them into a dungeon with scoops of treasure hunting or ancient artifacts that they need or want.

O man if you want to get them into the story line then poison them and give the only antidote to the sorceress, or you can make it more personal to the other characters as well using part of there backstories to motivate them on a certain path

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-01, 07:21 PM
Have you tried asking your players what they'd like for their characters to accomplish? Also, do they even know about all that stuff with the prince and the sorceress in the backstory?

Lord Vampyre
2010-06-01, 07:27 PM
How much of the history do the characters/players know?


I know all this stuff is long winded and a pretty weak plot, but any advice is welcome

The plot seems to be a cross between Rumplestiltzkin and Sleeping Beauty at this point. I wouldn't call it a weak plot, more of a rough outline to be fleshed out at a later date. Honestly, if your players are having a good time then your doing fine. I'm not the world's best DM, but I seem to be able to entertain my players well enough.

As far as the plot goes, take it one game at a time. If you find yourself at a loss of what to do next, send the players on some sort of side quest that may or may not affect the over arching plot.

The best advice I was given when starting to DM was: "Just relax and have fun!"

Maerok
2010-06-01, 07:33 PM
Side quest it while you figure out what to do next. Reward them with some sweet loot afterward.

IdleMuse
2010-06-01, 07:57 PM
Seems to me like you haven't got much of a problem at all, in terms of meta-arc-plot. You've got a great idea of what's happened, and you've got players that sound integrally-tied to the plot (whether they know it or not at this point). Depending on how long you intend the campaign to run, it doesn't hurt to give them time to grow as individuals before hammering them back into the major arc-plot. Believe me, they'll have a lot more fun discovering this if they've already had a lot of experience developing their characters in simple day-to-day sideplots, growing their personalities and interplay.

Take your heir-to-the-throne character; if he really builds a connection to his adoptive parents, it'll make the situation so much more intense when he discovers they aren't his real parents. You can help build this connection either by making sure they have a fair bit of interaction with the players, or by running plots directly involving them. Maybe the Sorceress captures his parents? Maybe they have a real son who grows to look nothing like the adoptive prince?

Identical Twins also raise an awful lot of classic plots; Maybe Enharen has accidentally wronged someone, who tries to seek his revenge upon Elias, not realising he's not the same person? Obviously meeting Enharen will go a long way towards plot transparency when you want that to start happening, since I assume he knows he is of royal blood.

You say that the players lack direction, and tend to be acting fairly reactively; maybe this can be cured by giving them a positive proactive thing to be doing; you haven't said much about the other characters, but assuming Sir Jett is a fairly tropic 'knight of the realm', then a carefully worded note from the king and queen might trigger some interesting roleplay; Perhaps they're interested in seeing how their son is doing, and use Sir Jett to find this out. He'll probably be quite confused when he recieves a royal summons, asking him to make up an excuse to bring one of his less-important companions to Court with him, but it's something that he (and the rest of the players) can think about proactively doing.

Far from being a long-winded weak plot from a bad DM, you seem to have the setup for a very roleplay-intesive campaign with depth and interest, and probably have less problems than you think :smallamused:

Just give it a bit of time and it sounds like you've got everything set up to go well when the players do start figuring out a little more of the background.

TheThan
2010-06-01, 08:38 PM
Your campaign hook is hardly weak, its in fact very open ended. You just need to work out some more details (and probably some better ones too).

With that in mind, here’s a few ideas.

Have the king fall ill and die. The clear line of succession is already broken. So naturally anyone and everyone with even the slightest hint of royal blood will be trying to lay claims on the thrown. With multiple people bidding for their chance of attaining the thrown, there will be tons of opportunities for mercenary work as the nobility tries to outdo and disprove each other’s claims to the thrown. Now this could get bad enough to threaten civil war.

Now if the prince character knows he’s the heir to the thrown and wants to become king, then this is the chance for the PC to step in and do just that, though he’ll have to somehow prove it. If the PC doesn’t want anything to do with becoming king, then mercenary work is pretty good pay.

Now you also mention that there is a rival nation. I take it that even though the war you mentioned is over, there is still bitter feelings and more than a little tension. This is excellent, you can spread rumors that this nation is planning on invading, while the king is ill or there is no clear leadership. They can claim and hold a lot of land before anyone could mount a sizable enough defense.

Now you’re sorceress is another excellent plot point, instead make the twin her minion, she could be planning on using the twin to gain the thrown, so she can control it from behind the scenes. Or maybe the twin is behind the above invasion plan and is seeking to invade and take the crown by force, with a powerful sorceress backing him. He could feel he’s been cheated out of his birthright (after all he should probably think he’s the elder son) and wishes to exact painful, bloody revenge.


Or you could have the sorceress be just that, a sorceress which sees the future. She sees the eldest son of the king becoming a great champion of good, and his younger brother acceding the thrown and becoming a great leader. So she took the “eldest son” in order to train him for the role she sees him in. But the kings’ treachery has thrown an unfrozen kink in her plans and she unknowingly ends up with the younger son. Who through the actions of the PCs ascends the thrown and the PC prince becomes the great champion of good.

Darakonis
2010-06-01, 08:42 PM
(...)

The problem is, I really want my campaign to be plot driven and have lots of interesting twists and turns, but it seems like nothing happens in my game but my players reacting to the bad stuff that happens to them. They don't really have a purpose... and I'm having a hard time fixing that.

(...)

And, yeah... now the PC's are 4th level and have barely touched this plot at all...

(...)

The PC's have been attacked by assassins, hinting that the sorceress (Syxara) knows of Elias's existence.

What have your characters done up to now? You said "now the PCs are at 4th level," so I presume they started at a lower level. Did they embark on a quest or two? Did they just roam around in the wild, waiting for wild creatures to attack so they could milk them for XP?

When players are not taking action, and are simply reacting to events around them, it's often because they don't know what to do. I can't count the number of times this has happened in my campaigns in the past.

Because I didn't want to railroad my players, I would leave them to figure out how to handle a situation. But there is a difference between railroading and offering guidance.

Railroading: Take the left tunnel.

Guidance: You can either take the left tunnel, the right tunnel, or the center tunnel.

No guidance: Here's a shovel.

Don't be afraid to give some obvious clues when your players are obviously clueless :)

As long as you are offering suggested paths and not a set of rails, players should still have the freedom to do what they want, while at least having an idea of what you expect.

Hope this helps.

Peace,
-Darakonis

random11
2010-06-01, 08:46 PM
One of the problems I see in your plot is that I didn't have to read to the part that explains the sorceress motives to guess that she is evil.
A sorceress promises something for the firstborn son? that's just shouting "EVIL".
It's not bad, but it does make it harder to add the twists and turns you want.
If it's not too late, why not look at it from another angle?
For example, the sorceress actually DID try to help, however, the cost of the magic that gives life requires life as a cost. She demanded the child to herself just so she can protect him (and herself?) from the magical consequences.
Since the king tricked her without understanding her motivation for her "demand", he gave the second son to her, but now the true heir is the target of the forces of balance trying to claim the life back.


If you still want her to be evil, you can make one of the players a hidden spy working for her, leaving clues behind for the assassins.
Another idea is to make the twin brother carry some curse on him placed by the sorceress that allows her to know his exact location. His escape was actually planned by her as a mean to locate and claim the firstborn son.
The players might even suspect he is evil and working for her, so don't make it easy for them to find that it is not his fault, just suddenly increase the frequency of assassins when he is with them...


Of course, knowing the sorceresses intentions does not mean the characters are strong enough to stop her.
This can be the start of a "look for a weapon X" quest, and/or a race against time to acquire a magical item before she does.

For Valor
2010-06-01, 08:48 PM
Have a minor NPC be a **** to the PCs and make them want to hurt him. When they do, he runs away and they accidently encounter a kickass guy who beats one or more of them within an inch of their life (If they have any NPCs who are important to them, the kickass guy should take those people away).

Then, coincidentally, someone offers phat loot in return for the PC's killing the bad guy and bringing back his head.

Plot hook accomplished.

Another_Poet
2010-06-01, 08:51 PM
Here are some questions to consider:

*Does it bother the other players that Elias gets to be a prince, while their characters don't?

*What do the players want their next quest to be?

*What caused the PCs to form a team in the first place? Is there a plot hook in there?

*If the players don't want to pursue the Syxara plotline, would you be happy letting it fade in the background and pursuing some other plot line?

*Are your PCs not going toward the plot because the players don't want to, or because they haven't been given a good hook or lead yet?

Spamotron
2010-06-01, 10:57 PM
It sounds like your entire plot centers around one PC what happens if this Elias eats a lucky crit from a monster and players can't or won't recover the body for ressurection? Have a plan B so the other characters have a reason to stay involved.

The ideas above about a civil war or invasion if the succession isn't settled quickly could be a good motive.

taylorbrooke123
2010-06-02, 12:21 AM
Ok, 1. Holy crap, thanks guys! All of this is really helpful. I'm going to try and answer as many of the questions I saw as I can, but I want you to know that what you've said already has been really helpful.

1. Are the PC's bothered by Elias being the center of attention/prince/big fat plot point?
I would honestly say no. Sir Jett is played by my sister and this is pretty much her first campaign, so she's excited to be doing anything. Also, Sir Jett is a pretty crazy guy, he uses a masterwork shovel to fight undead. Malik, the druid comes from an elven clan that we've done a couple few quests for, and his player (who is on the GitP forums, I told him not to look) is really lax and is completely fine with being what he called a "secondary character". And Bridget is actually my character, but she's an "NPC" with PC stats who is with the party continuously.

2. How much does the party know of the backstory?
Very little actually. They just captured Enharan (a kind of misunderstanding on the part of the rogue :P) And he willing told him that he was raised by Syxara and that he and Elias are brothers and princes, but he doesn't know which one of them was born first. He also doesn't know why they weren't raised in the castle.

3. What has happened thusfar/ How did all of these guys meet?
Uhm, let's see first session the adventurers (seperately) (but not Malik or Bridget, Zach was playing a different character at that point, an elf fighter named Callidor, and I was still deciding if I wanted to run a permanent NPC) for various reasons end up near the small village of Clearbrooke, they hear the sounds of battle and being good guys dash off to help defend the townsfolk from the raiding barbarians. After vanquishing them the mayor of the town, kind of assuming they are already an adventuring party, asks them, since they seem like skilled warriors, to go and find the barbarians camp in the woods and destroy them (they're the rape, pillage, and burn kind of barbarians, not the nice friendly tavern hopping ones).

The PC's stay at a tavern for the night in Clearbrooke where they meet Albert, an obviously half mad old man who begs them to find his daughter "Birthette" and he'll reward them for their efforts. They find the camp, find a dungeon, defeat the dungeon, save the girl, who is actually Bridget, and Birthette was her mother, Albert is her grandfather, who's crazy. Albert pays them in apples (don't worry they got plenty of loot from the dungeon). They also meet a halfling by the name Alacrity, another rogue who has been Bridget's substitute father/mentor. The major rewards them but asks them another boon, to go to the king and tell them of their problem, the barbarian raids have destroyed many of their crops and they fear this winter many of them will starve. Alacrity volunteers to join the group and Bridget refuses to be left behind.

On the road Alacrity receives a message (it's coded to say that "his father is on his deathbed and he must be there to claim any inheritance") from an old "adventuring" companion of Alacrity's. The message tells Alacrity a place and time. (The stuff at this point is unknown to the PC's ==>) For in fact, Alacrity, Bridget's mother and father, and the note sender were all spies during the Septarian/Algothan war. Birthette and Alacrity where actually double spies and played for both teams... a dangerous position, and that fact was unbeknown to Bridget's father, Derik, until he recieved a direct order from one of his supieriors that a mole had been found, and that it was his wife. Derik, taking his duty even above his happiness actually poisons his young wife to death and raises Bridget on his own. Until Alacrity finds enough evidence to confirm that Derik killed Birthette, who he was in love with (even though human/halfling relationships are frowned upon at best). In a blind rage, he takes Bridget (who was 14 or 15 at the time and he had already begun training her as a rogue, so she trusted him) and leads her somewhere safe while he goes back brutally murders Derik and burns their house to the ground. Alacrity then takes Bridget to her grandfather's house, and continues to help her hone her skills even through her grief at losing her father.

Alacrity leaves, telling Bridget she cannot come with him. The party continues on to the Capitol (Septarus) They inform the king, blah blah blah. At this point they have several adventures that are not plot important and where designed mostly to help them gain levels. They've had adventures that allowed each character shine in the spotlight, including quests involving NPC's related to the PC's, they've met reoccuring NPC'c both good and evil, and after they've just had a currently little "whoopsie" where Elias was turned into a werewolf, but being unable to pay the temple the gold required for a cure disease and atonement spells (to fix the whole CE thing) the temple agreed to perform the spells if the did some tasks for them.

They agree and last session they were sent to meet up with a paladin who they've met before named Dorean Watchblade (she's a lady, just fyi) and to clear out an abandoned fort of evil cultists who have been raising undead in the area. They defeat the dungeon but the boss gets away (a deathlock) he shouts right before activating a magic item that allows him to escape "We are followers of Syxara! Do you think this is all there is of us? You fools! We can never be defeated!" or something along those lines, and then he's gone. The party leaves (heavy with loot and a sparkly new level). On the way back to the temple, Bridget, who was scouting manages to capture a suspicious figure, who turns out to be Enharan. The party interrogates him and, seeing as how he seems to a a genuinely nice guy, they untie him and are now resting up at a nearby inn with him in tow.

4. What are the PC's motivations?
Malik was sent to learn about human culture from his clan leader, since Malik is actually the leaders apprentice. He meets up with the party after they kill an ogre threatening the elf clan who had set up camp nearby (they're nomadic).
Sir Jett... Sir Jett is almost a Don Quixote type character. He has "addled brains" but a heart of gold. He is adventuring for the sole purpose of doing good. He stays with this particular group because he has takin' a fatherly liking towards Bridget.
Elias fights for love and honor and goodness. He has a personal quest that the woman he'll marry will beat him in a duel. And now he has the added burden of knowing that Syxara and her minions are after him because he's the heir to the throne (or could be).
Briget adventures for riches and fame and love. The riches and fame have been there the whole time, but the love is new. She's actually in love with Elias (he is oblivious to this fact).

kestrel404
2010-06-02, 11:49 AM
Well, it doesn't sound like you're having any problems. You've got a group with various motivations, compelling characters, and a over-plot that can take you into the low-teen levels.

The issue, as you state it: "The problem is, I really want my campaign to be plot driven and have lots of interesting twists and turns, but it seems like nothing happens in my game but my players reacting to the bad stuff that happens to them."

The solution? Add plot twists. Here's why. There are two kinds of players in my experience: those who run out and create plot (pro-active), and those who wait for the plot to hit them (re-active). Both of these play styles can be quite fun, as well as causing the GM endless headaches. The Pro-active players will always be on the verge of de-railing your main plot (no matter how little you think you're railroading). And the Re-active players will soak up every bit of plot you throw at them and then wait for more (which requires a lot of prep work and effort on the GM's part).

You've got reactive players. This is not bad, but trying to change someone's play-style is generally an effort in frustration and futility. So go with it. Brainstorm and come up with wild and interesting new places for the game world to go. Find situations where they have to react strongly to the plot you direct at them, and then use those reactions to create even more dire situations. This isn't railroading or bad DMing or treating the players like the enemy - this is what happens in every good story. The world is out to get them (most of the time), so make them feel it.

Some examples: Instead of sending assassins, now that both the twins are in one place, the sorceress feels she needs to take a more active role in her plot. But she's the cunning, manipulative type. She probably has a lot of summoning and charm person type spells in her repertoire. So she uses random villagers, summoned monsters, misinformation and trickery to further her own ends. For example, in the next town, have the entire village plastered with 'Wanted' posters, claiming that a doppleganger has kidnapped a wealthy nobleman. The doppleganger is going by the name elias. Put a picture of the prince up alongside this information. Instant suspicion, doubt, and possible lynchmobs.

Have the PC's old actions come back and haunt them. No good deed goes unpunished, as they say, but also remember that the PCs need to have their victories. The harder you come down on them, the more fun they'll probably have. Give them situations that require them to think outside the box. Throw puzzles at them with no pre-planned solutions (and when they come up with a great idea, let it work). This is my general GM advice for new GMs. Basically, be harder on the PCs than you think you should, but let them win when they find a clever solution.