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mobdrazhar
2010-06-01, 10:18 PM
Hey there playground,

I'm AFB atm and had a quick thought which if i don't get it confirmed soon will drive me nuts. i know that Hellbred can use Evil aligned weapons regardless of their alignment, but i was wondering if they (according to RAW) can use Evil feats regardless of alignment.

could the collective wisdom playground tell me if i am correct here?

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-01, 10:22 PM
Evil Exception applies to Evil items and Evil spells, specifically. It mentions nothing about feats, so you probably couldn't take Vile feats without risking your alignment. However, there's nothing explicitly evil about the Devil-Touched feats, so they can probably take those.

true_shinken
2010-06-01, 11:10 PM
Evil Exception applies to Evil items and Evil spells, specifically. It mentions nothing about feats, so you probably couldn't take Vile feats without risking your alignment. However, there's nothing explicitly evil about the Devil-Touched feats, so they can probably take those.
Since they gain those as bonus feats, I'm pretty sure you can take'em.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-01, 11:14 PM
And talk with the DM of course, because by a certain unfriendly reading of the rules, Evil Exception doesn't actually remove the [Evil] descriptor from said spells and items...so casting Animate Dead is still an Evil act, and will eventually cause an alignment shift. It's just that you can cast it while you're a Good cleric, for instance, when you normally couldn't.

Gametime
2010-06-02, 01:04 AM
And talk with the DM of course, because by a certain unfriendly reading of the rules, Evil Exception doesn't actually remove the [Evil] descriptor from said spells and items...so casting Animate Dead is still an Evil act, and will eventually cause an alignment shift. It's just that you can cast it while you're a Good cleric, for instance, when you normally couldn't.

So the rules allow a Hellbred Cleric to become evil by casting [Evil] spells, instead of having to say "Bee tee dubs guis I'm evil now" and then start casting [Evil] spells?

At least it's a timesaver!

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-02, 01:34 AM
So the rules allow a Hellbred Cleric to become evil by casting [Evil] spells, instead of having to say "Bee tee dubs guis I'm evil now" and then start casting [Evil] spells?

At least it's a timesaver!

A reasonable houserule would be that those are no longer [Evil] for the Hellbred, but I would talk with whomever is DMing just to make sure you don't encounter a sudden "lolevil" moment.

Similarly, although RAW may prevent you from taking feats that require "Alignment: Evil," you could ask the DM to houserule otherwise due to the nature of the Hellbred.

I'm almost wondering if Hellbred shouldn't have just had the [Evil] subtype on top of everything else after seeing this. Also, on that note, you may - although I advise against it, due to the can of worms scenario into which it could lead you - check out the rules in Savage Species for adding alignment subtypes to your character, thereby qualifying for "Alignment: Evil" stuffs no matter your actual alignment.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 02:14 AM
And talk with the DM of course, because by a certain unfriendly reading of the rules, Evil Exception doesn't actually remove the [Evil] descriptor from said spells and items...so casting Animate Dead is still an Evil act, and will eventually cause an alignment shift. It's just that you can cast it while you're a Good cleric, for instance, when you normally couldn't.

RAI seems to be that their alignment stays Good. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20061204a)

"The hellbred race is a great way for players to use much of the material presented in this book and others without having the character be evil."

"In short, the hellbred is a great option for player's looking to play doomed champions, anti-heroes, and other dark and gloomy characters without having to play an evil alignment."

The Glyphstone
2010-06-02, 07:35 AM
RAI seems to be that their alignment stays Good. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ps/20061204a)

"The hellbred race is a great way for players to use much of the material presented in this book and others without having the character be evil."

"In short, the hellbred is a great option for player's looking to play doomed champions, anti-heroes, and other dark and gloomy characters without having to play an evil alignment."

Well, yeah, RAI of the race and Evil Exception are pretty solid, but it's still something worth mentioning - a DM could legitimately interpret, for instance, Evil Exception as the right of the Hellbred to choose: Does he take up the weapons and magic of evil in the name of good, even knowing that their continued use will taint his soul again, or does he forgo their power even when it could make the difference?

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-02, 10:38 AM
Yeah, I had a DM in a short-lived game that pretty much shot down Evil Exception hardcore. He claimed that if my character did anything or used anything Evil, or even used his Devil's Favor bonus feat (a measly +1 1/day to a roll), it would be impossible for him to ever be redeemed.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 11:10 AM
Doing Evil does still penalize Hellbred.
Using Evil should be allowed, however.

Machiavellian
2010-06-02, 11:32 AM
If a Hellbred is using Animate Dead or another "evil spell" for good reasons (IE: leaving a guard for a kind king, for instance), then its a moot point, and thus is a good act

Marriclay
2010-06-02, 11:35 AM
If a Hellbred is using Animate Dead or another "evil spell" for good reasons (IE: leaving a guard for a kind king, for instance), then its a moot point, and thus is a good act
Absolutely!

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 11:36 AM
If a Hellbred is using Animate Dead or another "evil spell" for good reasons (IE: leaving a guard for a kind king, for instance), then its a moot point, and thus is a good act

Or even Neutral reasons, like just plain providing his party members with backup.

Evil Exception only ceases to apply for overtly evil acts, such as ordering his undead minion to attack an innocent NPC.

Greenish
2010-06-02, 12:49 PM
Doing Evil does still penalize Hellbred.
Using Evil should be allowed, however.Casting [Evil] spells is an Evil act, no?

Though needing a specific racial ability to bypass the completely arbitrary restrictions on some stuff seems to be par for the the course for WotC.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 12:54 PM
Casting [Evil] spells is an Evil act, no?

Though needing a specific racial ability to bypass the completely arbitrary restrictions on some stuff seems to be par for the the course for WotC.

It is called out as an evil act in the very same book as Hellbred. The intent seems to be for them to get away with doing so.

It is also very minor on the list of Corrupt acts.

mobdrazhar
2010-06-02, 05:22 PM
i thank the playground for their invaluable help in this matter. it's helped me get an idea on how i was going to do my master plan... to combine BoED, BoVD and BoEF into 1 char.

Gametime
2010-06-02, 05:51 PM
Well, yeah, RAI of the race and Evil Exception are pretty solid, but it's still something worth mentioning - a DM could legitimately interpret, for instance, Evil Exception as the right of the Hellbred to choose: Does he take up the weapons and magic of evil in the name of good, even knowing that their continued use will taint his soul again, or does he forgo their power even when it could make the difference?

Hm. I think I prefer the interpretation that casting [Evil] spells doesn't change their alignment, but what you say could make for a very intriguing character. Imagine a Hellbred, intent on doing good, capable of using the foulest means for the brightest ends, being told that while his alignment would not be affected by casting [Evil] spells, his eternal soul would.

What would such a character do? Seek their own salvation by "safe" good deeds? Seek to make the world as good as possible, even knowing that their own soul might be damned in the process? The roleplaying opportunities are endless!

Of course, D&D alignments are a can of worms all their own, but the way such a character could question what it means to be "good" intrigues me deeply.


i thank the playground for their invaluable help in this matter. it's helped me get an idea on how i was going to do my master plan... to combine BoED, BoVD and BoEF into 1 char.

Using the Book of Erotic Fantasy is an [Evil] act that no exception can protect you from. :smalltongue: