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View Full Version : Slade speculation. Formerly a discussion on Natural attacks.



Mystic Muse
2010-06-01, 11:34 PM
I'm asking this for two reasons.

1. I'm playing in a game where I have a tail attack I didn't think I was going to use since a greatsword does more damage
2. I was curious whether a Monk who got polymorphed into say, a twelve headed hydra would get both his natural attacks and his unarmed strikes.

I read that they did stack in a thread about natural attacks that was on here a day or two ago and decided I should ask.

Gralamin
2010-06-01, 11:38 PM
I'm asking this for two reasons.

1. I'm playing in a game where I have a tail attack I didn't think I was going to use since a greatsword does more damage
2. I was curious whether a Monk who got polymorphed into say, a twelve headed hydra would get both his natural attacks and his unarmed strikes.

I read that they did stack in a thread about natural attacks that was on here a day or two ago and decided I should ask.

Well heres how it usually works:
You have a Primary weapon and secondary weapons. Your Primary weapon is almost always your manufactured weapon (Such as unarmed Strikes, greatsword, etc.). Usually you have the highest attack bonus with your Primary weapon, and your secondaries are at -5. When full attacking, you make one attack for each weapon (Exception: Manufactured weapons get iterative attacks. If you have multiple, see Multiweapon fighting / Two-weapon Fighting), unless your primary weapon gets in the way (IE: You can not stab someone with a greatsword and claw their face off unless you have 4+ arms).

Mystic Muse
2010-06-01, 11:44 PM
Ah. So that'd be a yes to both.

I'll ask my DM for the one game if I could just use the tail for flavor reasons for now since a second attack at second level seems a little unbalanced to me.

Thurbane
2010-06-01, 11:45 PM
Gralamin is correct. You use your manufactured weapons (including unarmed strike or Monk's flurry of blows) at their normal bonus (including all normal iterative attacks with that weapon), plus any natural attacks that are still eligible (usually bite, tail or gore) at a -5 (secondary) penalty. The Multiattack feat reduces the penalty for secondary natural attacks to -2 (and Improved Multiattack reduces it to 0).

The only ways to get iterative attacks with natural attacks that I am aware of are:
1.) The Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike feats from Draconomicon.
2.) A Druid's animal companion that only has one attack (such as a Wolf) gets one iterative attack at -5 when the druid hits 9th level.



I'll ask my DM for the one game if I could just use the tail for flavor reasons for now since a second attack at second level seems a little unbalanced to me.
That's up to you, of course, but I wouldn't call a 2nd attack at -5 penalty (and only 1/2 STR bonus to damage) unbalanced at 2nd level. A character with Two Weapon Fighting or Rapidshot can do much the same, if not better.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-01, 11:53 PM
That's up to you, of course, but I wouldn't call a 2nd attack at -5 penalty (and only 1/2 STR bonus to damage) unbalanced at 2nd level. A character with Two Weapon Fighting or Rapidshot can do much the same, if not better.

Well, I only took the feat for flavor reasons and the flaw I took was pretty insignificant. Especially since I'll become immune to the drawbacks eventually.

Thurbane
2010-06-02, 12:02 AM
For instance, a 2nd level human Human Barbarian (Whirling Frenzy variant) with the feats Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder could wield a greataxe two handed and bind the vestige Amon. When whirling he can attack twice with his greataxe and once with his ram attack. Assuming an 18 STR (pre-rage), his attacks would be +8/+6 with the greataxe (1d12+9) and +3 with the ram attack (1d6+9). I'm sure someone could cheese this out much better than I can, anyway... :smallbiggrin:

Coidzor
2010-06-02, 12:06 AM
Ah. So that'd be a yes to both.

I'll ask my DM for the one game if I could just use the tail for flavor reasons for now since a second attack at second level seems a little unbalanced to me.

At a -5 penalty and as part of your racial features... no, no it's not unless that tail attack and/or racial package is good enough that you should've gotten LA.

A feat is a feat and if you only took it for flavor, it's not a feat, it's a bit of roleplaying fluff.

So, thusly, there must be some mechanical effect.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 12:08 AM
I messaged the DM and said he can get rid of it if he thinks it isn't reasonable at this level or if he does think it's reasonable he can ignore the message. I don't care either way but I figured he should know just in case.

Coidzor
2010-06-02, 12:09 AM
I messaged the DM and said he can get rid of it if he thinks it isn't reasonable at this level or if he does think it's reasonable he can ignore the message. I don't care either way but I figured he should know just in case.

Well, here's hoping you don't lose your sense of balance.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 12:09 AM
At a -5 penalty and as part of your racial features... no, no it's not unless that tail attack and/or racial package is good enough that you should've gotten LA.

A feat is a feat and if you only took it for flavor, it's not a feat, it's a bit of roleplaying fluff.

So, thusly, there must be some mechanical effect.

Maybe I've been playing in a group that probably would care far too long.

Zore
2010-06-02, 12:14 AM
Maybe I've been playing in a group that probably would care far too long.

They would care if you picked an okish feat and used it? A natural attack of 1d3 or 4 plus half strength averages like three extra damage if it hits, which it probably won't due to the -5 to hit it has. Thats a way worse return than something like Power attack and it doesn't scale when you level. And you can only use it on a full attack.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 12:17 AM
They would care if you picked an okish feat and used it? A natural attack of 1d3 or 4 plus half strength averages like three extra damage if it hits, which it probably won't due to the -5 to hit it has. That's a way worse return than something like Power attack and it doesn't scale when you level. And you can only use it on a full attack.

It does 1d8 but yeah, they probably would. At least one player and the DM hardly have the best concept of power. And on that game I already do have power attack. I'm probably not getting as much out of that as I could though.

To be clear, the DM thinks Monks are overpowered and wizards are underpowered. I don't know why and don't care why. I'm not going to change his mind without playing a wizard or shoving the evidence in his face at which point he'd just think "Why do you care so much?"

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-02, 12:26 AM
A level 1 Wizard, assuming multiple encounters in a single day, is less powerful than a level 1 Monk.

This continues up to approximately level 5.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 12:28 AM
Well, in the campaign I'm talking about the Monk is about to be level 10. We don't have a wizard although I plan on playing one if my current character dies*. I have enough self control to not pick the more broken spells if I don't use all my spells known. I'll also have the other two players character sheets so I know what optimization level to use.

*I want to play Raven from Teen titans and an illusionist wizard seems to fit her perfectly. At least as far as I can tell. And I need to be going to bed now.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-02, 01:04 AM
Raven? An illusionist?

She uses telekinesis as her primary mode of attack!

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 01:17 AM
Raven? An illusionist?

She uses telekinesis as her primary mode of attack!

Well, there's this one spell that seems to work almost all of her attacks. The others would probably be grasping tentacles, contingencied shield or wall of force, some form of banishment and she uses gate once. I also heard about her using time stop but don't recall that episode. If Psions can do all that I'll use one instead.

So, maybe not illusionist but I still think wizard or sorceror.

couldn't get to sleep and I'm not really tired.:smallfrown:

Drakevarg
2010-06-02, 01:19 AM
I also heard about her using time stop but don't recall that episode.

It was the one where Slade decided he was just too awesome to keep being dead, and stopped.


couldn't get to sleep and I'm not really tired.:smallfrown:

I am all too familiar with the feeling. Hence why I'm not asleep right now.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 01:20 AM
It was the one where Slade decided he was just too awesome to keep being dead, and stopped.

I kind of remember that episode but don't remember the time stop. Guess I should watch that again.

Drakevarg
2010-06-02, 01:21 AM
I kind of remember that episode but don't remember the time stop. Guess I should watch that again.

It might be partially because Slade also decided that he was also too awesome to bother stopping when time did.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 01:22 AM
It might be partially because Slade also decided that he was also too awesome to bother stopping when time did.

That's probably it.

Wow he got stupidly powerful by selling his soul didn't he?

Drakevarg
2010-06-02, 01:25 AM
That's probably it.

Wow he got stupidly powerful by selling his soul didn't he?

Yes, being Satan's Trigon's undead right-hand man will do that. He eventually decided he couldn't be bothered being subservient either, so he stole his soul back and became mortal again.

Not that stopped him from being able to wipe the floor with the Titans using his bare hands.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 01:28 AM
Yes, being Satan's Trigon's undead right-hand man will do that. He eventually decided he couldn't be bothered being subservient either, so he stole his soul back and became mortal again.

Not that stopped him from being able to wipe the floor with the Titans using his bare hands.

To be fair, Trigon didn't follow through on his promise. So, he stole his soul back (and broke several others out:smalleek:) and started beating the crap out of Trigon with the titans.

Drakevarg
2010-06-02, 01:30 AM
To be fair, Trigon didn't follow through on his promise. So, he stole his soul back (and broke several others out:smalleek:) and started beating the crap out of him with the other titans.

Point being; Slade is made of awesome. Trigon's boost was simply because overkill is always fun. He doesn't actually need it.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 01:34 AM
Point being; Slade is made of awesome. Trigon's boost was simply because overkill is always fun. He doesn't actually need it.

To put it in D&D terms, I think a Monk (Or a fighter focusing on unarmed attacks) beats a wizard/Sorceror (Not sure which) a warlock, a Fighter/Rogue with increased unarmed damage, an artificer and a Druid* single handedly.

*beast boy might be something else. Regardless, Slade is BAD***

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-02, 01:50 AM
Slade is not a Monk...

Slade is a Swordsage/Warblade/Artificer triple-Gestalt.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 02:01 AM
Slade is not a Monk...

Slade is a Swordsage/Warblade/Artificer triple-Gestalt.

Daw. That makes him less bad***. If only slightly.

Coidzor
2010-06-02, 02:02 AM
So, what class and race are you anyway? and what feat gave you a 1d8 tail?

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 02:02 AM
So, what class and race are you anyway? and what feat gave you a 1d8 tail?

Dragonborn homebrew Paladin and the feat Dragon tail.

EDIT: It's 1d6. It'll be 1d8 when I get powerful build (using a version of Goliath for the base race that my DM modified) Unless powerful build doesn't do that and I'm unaware of it.

Going to try and go to sleep again now.

Runestar
2010-06-02, 06:06 AM
Rapidstrike does not technically grant iterative attacks. I read it as simply granting extra attacks when you make a full attack with that particular group of natural weapons.

For example, a 12-headed hydra with rapidstrike will only get 1 extra bite attack, not 12. :smalltongue:

DragoonWraith
2010-06-02, 10:37 AM
Where did Rapidstrike come in?

Anyway, yeah, this is not overpowered. Getting natural attacks usually comes at a high cost - feats, weak races, etc. If you have one and you're not using it, you're even worse off than if you were.


A level 1 Wizard, assuming multiple encounters in a single day, is less powerful than a level 1 Monk.

This continues up to approximately level 5.
This is inaccurate. It's harder but a level 1 Wizard can still do more than a level 1 Monk.

Greenish
2010-06-02, 11:10 AM
EDIT: It's 1d6. It'll be 1d8 when I get powerful build (using a version of Goliath for the base race that my DM modified) Unless powerful build doesn't do that and I'm unaware of it.Powerful Build doesn't actually increase the size of your natural weapons as written, but that'll be easy to handwave.

Rapidstrike is from Dragonomicon.

Person_Man
2010-06-02, 01:02 PM
Basically yes to both. But there is a big caveat.

The controlling factor over whether or not you can use a natural attack as a secondary attack in addition to your normal attack routine is the wording of its source, and not any consistent or logical rule. A Lizardfolk has 2 claws and a bite. A Werebear has 2 claws and a bite. But a Lizardfolk using a sword only gets a secondary bite attack when it uses a weapon, whereas the Werebear gets the bite, a claw, and the weapon. And it's not just a core thing. Magic of Incarnum is chock full of ways to gain natural attacks via soulmelds - some of them let you make secondary natural attacks, and some don't. I know that it makes no sense. That's just the way its written.

However, a reasonable DM will just let you use all natural attacks as secondary attacks (as long as you're not holding a weapon with the same appendage).

Runestar
2010-06-02, 05:24 PM
A Lizardfolk has 2 claws and a bite. A Werebear has 2 claws and a bite. But a Lizardfolk using a sword only gets a secondary bite attack when it uses a weapon, whereas the Werebear gets the bite, a claw, and the weapon.

The lizardfolk in the MM gets only a bite in tandem with its club as its other claw is wielding a shield. The werebear is not holding a shield, so it can use that arm to make a claw attack.

Thurbane
2010-06-02, 06:37 PM
Where did Rapidstrike come in?
That was me...but not in reference to the OP, just a general comment about iteratives and natural attacks.

Il_Vec
2010-06-02, 06:48 PM
Slade is a Swordsage/Warblade/Artificer triple-Gestalt.

I'd say he was a warblade with ungodly absurd amount of Int... And resources.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 06:54 PM
Since my question has long since been answered should We just turn this into a thread speculating what class Slade is?

Drakevarg
2010-06-02, 07:07 PM
Ranger with Favored Enemy: Comedy.

Prime32
2010-06-02, 07:07 PM
The same class as Robin's old friend, but lower level?

Drakevarg
2010-06-02, 07:09 PM
The same class as Robin's old friend, but lower level?

Batman doesn't have a normal class. He homebrewed one himself. He's got 20 Levels in The Goddamn Batman.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 07:09 PM
I'll take that as a yes.

Prime32
2010-06-02, 07:10 PM
Batman doesn't have a normal class. He homebrewed one himself. He's got 20 Levels in The Goddamn Batman.And I say Slade has at least 10 levels in TGB.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 07:13 PM
Batman is a Factotum.

TGB is clearly a prestige class.

Drakevarg
2010-06-02, 07:15 PM
I almost want to homebrew it now...

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 07:18 PM
Batman is a Factotum.

TGB is clearly a prestige class.

NOTHING IS A FACTOTUM.

NOTHING. EVER. EVER.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 07:25 PM
NOTHING IS A FACTOTUM.

NOTHING. EVER. EVER.

Daww. Why not?

Greenish
2010-06-02, 07:25 PM
Batman doesn't have a normal class. He homebrewed one himself. He's got 20 Levels in The Goddamn Batman.Batman's actual class is rather irrelevant what with the epic++ WBL.

Catch
2010-06-02, 07:26 PM
NOTHING IS A FACTOTUM.

NOTHING. EVER. EVER.

Vic Sage, aka The Question.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080426072519/marvel_dc/images/2/27/VicSage1.jpg

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 07:28 PM
Daww. Why not?

Get back to me when anyone in non-D&D fiction that's a dabbler is both a significant dabbler in magic and actually has magic at all similar to D&D magic.


Vic Sage, aka The Question.

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080426072519/marvel_dc/images/2/27/VicSage1.jpg

I will not concede this one, but I grant it is much closer than I usually see put forward.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-02, 07:29 PM
Daww. Why not?

He is trying to fool you. I mean, knowledge is power so confusion is less power. He worries you'll gain too much power. :smallbiggrin:

Mando Knight
2010-06-02, 07:40 PM
I almost want to homebrew it now...

The Goddamn Batman

HD: d12
BAB: Full
Saves: All good

Alignment: Any Batman

Skills (7+Int per level): All.

Features include...
Unarmed Strike progression as Monk
Can make any attack nonlethal without penalty
Int to AC
Magic item creation similar to Artificer
Knowledge feature similar to Bard's
Ability to breathe in space
Astral projection
Crazy preparation

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 07:51 PM
The Goddamn Batman

HD: d12
BAB: Full
Saves: All good

Alignment: Any Batman

Skills (7+Int per level): All.

Features include...
Unarmed Strike progression as Monk
Can make any attack nonlethal without penalty
Int to AC
Magic item creation similar to Artificer
Knowledge feature similar to Bard's
Ability to breathe in space
Astral projection
Crazy preparation

Seems like it might be a bit powerful.

Of course, he is TGB.

Should I suggest this class to my DM for a villain if I play "Raven"? (Put in quotes since it won't quite be Raven)

Drakevarg
2010-06-02, 07:53 PM
Seems like it might be a bit powerful.

Of course, he is TGB.

No one's gonna argue that Batman is balanced. Though really, Crazy Preparation pretty much covers everything but the first three features.

Mando Knight
2010-06-02, 08:11 PM
Seems like it might be a bit powerful.

Nah, it's totally balanced. He doesn't get a familiar. You also need to have an alignment of Batman. :smalltongue:

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 08:12 PM
Nah, it's totally balanced. He doesn't get a familiar. You also need to have an alignment of Batman. :smalltongue:

Ah. Hello WOTC.:smalltongue:

Gametime
2010-06-02, 08:19 PM
Get back to me when anyone in non-D&D fiction that's a dabbler is both a significant dabbler in magic and actually has magic at all similar to D&D magic.



How would you feel if he was a homebrewed Factotum variant with ToB maneuvers in place of spells?

Also, maybe get rid of the turn undead/heal thing.

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 08:51 PM
How would you feel if he was a homebrewed Factotum variant with ToB maneuvers in place of spells?

Also, maybe get rid of the turn undead/heal thing.

Works, but a cross between Warblade and Swordsage would probably convey it better.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-02, 08:53 PM
Works, but a cross between Warblade and Swordsage would probably convey it better.

So, Master of the nine? Or just Warblade/Swordsage multiclass?

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 08:55 PM
So, Master of the nine? Or just Warblade/Swordsage multiclass?

No, a cross. Something with int-based class features and a lot of skill points and skill tricks, but focusing on lightly armed and non-supernatural combat.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-02, 09:14 PM
why can't Batman be a Factotum with Arcane Ditillante refluffed as "Bat-Utility Belt"?

9mm
2010-06-02, 09:48 PM
because Batman is really a mindbender.

Prime32
2010-06-03, 06:40 AM
For Raven I'd go with a warlock. Or maybe that would fit Starfire better...

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-03, 11:01 AM
For Raven I'd go with a warlock. Or maybe that would fit Starfire better...

Much of what Raven does is like Warlock Invocations... but she doesn't really have a "blast" attack.

Starfire is most certainly a Warlock/Barbarian; at least by the comics since she's much stronger than normal humans... and prone to losing her temper.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-03, 11:24 AM
For Raven I'd go with a warlock.

The only problem with this is I don't think Warlock's have gate or time stop. They might have banishment or dismissal or something like that though.

Starfire is definitely at least part Warlock.

Prime32
2010-06-03, 11:26 AM
Starfire is most certainly a Warlock/Barbarian; at least by the comics since she's much stronger than normal humans... and prone to losing her temper.Also much more naked.
http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/bigimages/starfire.jpg

Mystic Muse
2010-06-03, 11:42 AM
Also much more naked.
http://www.hyperborea.org/flash/bigimages/starfire.jpg

That's Starfire in the comics?

Between that and the difference between the cartoon Raven and the in-comic Raven? Yeah, I'm not reading the comics any time soon.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-03, 11:48 AM
Much of what Raven does is like Warlock Invocations... but she doesn't really have a "blast" attack.

Starfire is most certainly a Warlock/Barbarian; at least by the comics since she's much stronger than normal humans... and prone to losing her temper.

Raven blasts. It depends on the episide.

When that dragon wizard was instructing her, she used Chilling Tentacles vs that Light bulb guy.

AstralFire
2010-06-03, 11:57 AM
That's Starfire in the comics?

Between that and the difference between the cartoon Raven and the in-comic Raven? Yeah, I'm not reading the comics any time soon.

The comics are way better than the cartoon in this case, personally speaking. The Teen Titans cartoon was a travesty compared to the brilliance of Justice League.

Prime32
2010-06-03, 12:01 PM
The comics are way better than the cartoon in this case, personally speaking. The Teen Titans cartoon was a travesty compared to the brilliance of Justice League.Note that the comic team had a roster including Superboy and Static.