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Calintares
2010-06-02, 12:32 AM
Would it make sense to have metamagic that reduced the required spell slot in order to make it possible to apply other metamagic to the spell?

Examples:


Weaken Spell
All variable, numeric effects of a weakened spell are reduced by half. A weakened spell deals half as much damage as normal, cures half as many hit points, affects half as many targets, and so forth, as appropriate. For example, a weakened magic missile deals 1/2 times its normal damage (roll 1d4+1 and multiply the result by 1/2 for each missile). Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you cast dispel magic) are not affected, spells without random variables cannot be weakened. A weakened spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than the spellís actual level, but the spell slot used must at least be equal to the one that would be used had no metamagic been applied.

Shorten Spell
A shortened spell lasts half as long as normal. A spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat. This feat cannot be used on spells with a duration of one round. A shortened spell uses up a spell slot one level lower than the spellís actual level, but the spell slot used must at least be equal to the one that would be used had no metamagic been applied.

Minimize Spell
All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are minimized. A minimized spell deals minimum damage, cures the minimum number of hit points, affects the minimum number of targets, etc., as appropriate. For example, a minimized fireball deals 1 points of damage per caster level (up to a maximum of 10 points of damage at 10th caster level). Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you cast dispel magic) are not affected, spells without random variables cannot be weakened. A minimized spell uses up a spell slot two levels lower than the spellís actual level, but the spell slot used must at least be equal to the one that would be used had no metamagic been applied. You cannot both weaken and minimize a spell, you cannot both maximize and minimize a spell


example of the intended use: A sorcerer 6 that has been tied up might want to weaken her fireball in order to be able to apply the still spell feat to it, still casting it as a 3rd level spell, but now with a metamagic feat she otherwise could not afford

BLiZme.2
2010-06-02, 02:07 AM
In and of themselves these seem awesome and balanced BUT there are so so so so many abuses you could put these to it boggles the mind here are a few.
1. if you know your opponent you can use a 0 level spell slot to counter (insert name of high leval spell here)...
2. Early entry to many prcs
3. I can cast spells whose spell level is 13 at class level 18

Reverse the meaning of the ďBut the spell cannot be cast at a level lower than it's actual levelĒ sentence try
The spell counts as a spell of its reduced level.
That pretty much cures 2 and 3 1 is still an issue though.
You should look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154026).(fixed the link)

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-02, 02:10 AM
Part of the issue with negative metamagic adjustments is either their effects are mitigated or they're used for early entry via knowing your entire spell list naturally (see Beguiler and Dread Necromancer) or when coupled with Heighten Spell. So, while the intent is fine, you'd either have to throw in some clauses to prevent such trickery or create some other work around to prevent it.

Ashtagon
2010-06-02, 02:28 AM
I'd insist on a couple of restriction to this...

1) You can never use this to gain access to a spell before you could have without this. A 3rd level wizard can't use this to cast a fireball, for example.

2) Negative metamagic must be used in conjunction with standard metamagic. After all modifiers, the spell level must still be at least equal to the spell's original spell level. (nb. There is a feat which offsets some of the cast of metamagic; with that feat, the final spell level must be at least equal to the original spell level plus one).

3) Negative metamagic should generally speaking quarter the item being reduced. This ties in with UA's flaws system, which has a flaw generally being twice as strong as a feat, on the basis that you would normally only pick a flaw for something you don't intend to use much anyway.

DaTedinator
2010-06-02, 02:41 AM
I ran into a couple of problems working on these. First, a bit specific, but Narrow Spell is just a bad idea. The problem is, it can actually be really useful in situations where you want to avoid hitting friends, and then to have it take up a lower level slot, too? Second, you have spells where dice are rolled, but either unimportant, or unlikely; for example, Phantasmal Killer is technically able to be modified by Minimize. Third, you run into weird problems with feats like Easy Metamagic, or Arcane Thesis, or classes like Incantatrix.

You can check out my Cantrip Caster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7451922#post7451922) for how I dealt with them in detail, but for simple overview... (1) I had it reduce the spell to a single square, (2) I specified it can only be used if the primary effect requires dice to be rolled, and (3) I made them class features, so they aren't affected by anything that affects "metamagic feats." That last one probably won't work for you though, if you want to make feats. :smalltongue:

EDIT: Actually, you could maybe (maybe) benefit from reading some of the discussion on my class, too. Balancing negative metamagic comes up a bit.

Calintares
2010-06-02, 03:37 AM
I agree on all the restrictions suggested by Ashtagon, and I tried to word it that way too, so that you either take the negative effect and still cast it as a spell of the appropriate level, or you use it to buy off regular metamagic

I also tried to make them weaker than their counterparts, e.g. empower spell costs two extra slots, while weaken only buys you one. It don't work with shorten spell though.

Narrow spell is out I guess, and I intentionally did not have anything that made the casting process more complex.