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Yeturs
2010-06-02, 01:57 AM
So for a spellthief to steal a spell he would have to lose sneak attack damage or have a willing target right?

Well, say my spellthief managed to hogtie/gag a spellcaster, who for whatever reason has all his spells still prepared or slots open?

Would I still have to stab him to forsake the damage to steal a spell? Would it be unreasonable to threaten his life enough to make him be willing? Or would you as dm allow me to steal from a helpless target with a touch (same way as I steal from a willing target)?

Seems likes powerful stratagy if I can pull it off in game.

Also, just occured to me, can sorcerers and other impromptu classes choose not to refresh there spell slots? (given the 8 hours of rest) afb right now...

(on a seperate note, anyone have any good spellthief builds? I can't find any good PRCs. I'm thinking about just spellthief 20 cus I want full spellstealing to be my thing. Also, what would the main damage/to hit difference be melée vs ranged? Only ever played a caster before :smallbiggrin:)

PId6
2010-06-02, 02:06 AM
Unconscious always means willing. Yes, you know what I mean.

Spellthief alone is generally a bit weak, since it relies on a very situational strategy. A good spellthief build is Spellthief 1/Wizard X/Unseen Seer X with Master Spellthief, since you get 19 levels of wizard spellcasting to supplement spellthief's weaknesses while still getting some of its best features.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-02, 02:07 AM
So for a spellthief to steal a spell he would have to lose sneak attack damage or have a willing target right?

Well, say my spellthief managed to hogtie/gag a spellcaster, who for whatever reason has all his spells still prepared or slots open?

Would I still have to stab him to forsake the damage to steal a spell? Would it be unreasonable to threaten his life enough to make him be willing? Or would you as dm allow me to steal from a helpless target with a touch (same way as I steal from a willing target)?

If he does not willfully give you the spells, and you'd know such, then, yes, you'd have to keep shanking him to get them.


Seems likes powerful stratagy if I can pull it off in game.

Also, just occured to me, can sorcerers and other impromptu classes choose not to refresh there spell slots? (given the 8 hours of rest) afb right now...

The problem with the strategy is that you're going up against spellcasters! Also, spontaneous casters still need to mediate for 15 minutes to refresh their slots.


(on a seperate note, anyone have any good spellthief builds? I can't find any good PRCs. I'm thinking about just spellthief 20 cus I want full spellstealing to be my thing. Also, what would the main damage/to hit difference be melée vs ranged? Only ever played a caster before :smallbiggrin:)

Your best bet for Spellthief is honestly Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 5/(Arcane Trickster or Abjurant Champion or Spellwarper Sniper) 5, using Master Spellthief to gain nearly full Spell-stealing joy.

Glimbur
2010-06-02, 11:44 AM
It's questionable whether or not Master Spellthief increases your capacity for holding stolen spells. RAI I think it should, but if it ruled to not do so in your campaign then you just spent a level and a feat on the ability to remove spells from an enemy caster... in a limited fashion.

Machiavellian
2010-06-02, 11:48 AM
First and foremost, Wizard isn't good for Spellthief (MAD out the backside). Stick with Sorcerer.

and as for a KO'ed foe, they're willing (based on rules) and thus are spellthief's best bud.

Personally, here's my suggestion:

Take 3 levels in Spellthief
Take 7 levels in Sorcerer
Pick up Master Spellthief
Take Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster to taste (often considered to be better to have more US than AT)
Have fun using Invisibility and having a full SA and Sorcerer casting

Fax Celestis
2010-06-02, 11:51 AM
Read this.

Machiavellian
2010-06-02, 11:54 AM
I also suggest Neraphim for race. I mean a free martial proficiency, outsider type, and a HiPS 1/day?!

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-06-02, 12:11 PM
I had a 20th level spellthief in one campaign. The question of whither or not Master Spellthief actually allows you to hold as many levels of spells was ruled just as written. You can still only steal spells but very limited and the true power comes from getting full casting. However with Whisper Gnome Spellthief 18/ Shadowcraft Mage 2 you would be able to sneak attack for two 9th level spells and silence the enemy to boot. Not to mention 25% miss chance and you may hide as if you acquired concealment. Thats my two cents anyways.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-02, 12:49 PM
First and foremost, Wizard isn't good for Spellthief (MAD out the backside). Stick with Sorcerer.

and as for a KO'ed foe, they're willing (based on rules) and thus are spellthief's best bud.

Personally, here's my suggestion:

Take 3 levels in Spellthief
Take 7 levels in Sorcerer
Pick up Master Spellthief
Take Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster to taste (often considered to be better to have more US than AT)
Have fun using Invisibility and having a full SA and Sorcerer casting

As a Spellthief, you only need Cha if you intend to cast Spellthief spells. As such, there's little reason to go sorcerer over wizard outside of simply taste when you're not going to be casting Spellthief spells.

There's also little reason not to go Spellthief 1/Wizard 4 (or sorcerer, really)/Unseen Seer 10/Filler 5 build compared to your build, as the sorcerer levels 5-7 and Spellthief levels >2 do you nothing. Also do to how Steal Spell Effect works, it's unlikely to be of use to you with only three levels of Spellthief, so there's even little reason to stay longer than the first level.

Glimbur
2010-06-02, 12:51 PM
First and foremost, Wizard isn't good for Spellthief (MAD out the backside). Stick with Sorcerer.

and as for a KO'ed foe, they're willing (based on rules) and thus are spellthief's best bud.

Personally, here's my suggestion:

Take 3 levels in Spellthief
Take 7 levels in Sorcerer
Pick up Master Spellthief
Take Unseen Seer and Arcane Trickster to taste (often considered to be better to have more US than AT)
Have fun using Invisibility and having a full SA and Sorcerer casting

Why three levels of Spellthief? Stealing energy resistance is... not very good compared to what else you could get with those class levels. One level is a good dip, two gets you spellgrace +1 and more importantly steal spell effect, but the next sensible breakpoint seems to be fifth when you get steal SLA.

Pluto
2010-06-02, 12:56 PM
stuff
I disagree with just about everything in that first post.

To clarify:

Wizard is a far better choice than Sorcerer, and is in fact less MAD than the Sorcerer. (Wizard casting is more flexible and advances more rapidly than Sorcerer casting; skillmonkeys love Intelligence; Spellthieves have a total of 2 Charisma-based skills, including UMD, which typically uses your Familiar's ability modifiers and not your own; and without staying until level 4+, Spellthieves have no spells available, making Charisma a dump stat.)

Depending on interpretations of Master Spellthief, the best Spellthief builds are typically:

Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5
Spellthief 9/Chameleon 10/whatever 1
or Spellthief 1/Full casting base class 19

...Depending on whether classes stack for spells retained and whether PrC's that advance casting count as spellcasting classes.

3 levels Spellthief is a bad choice for pretty much everybody. Just use the appropriate energy types, if you're going to blast.

Neraphim is good, though. Outsider type+shapeshifting is just downright mean.

Machiavellian
2010-06-02, 01:44 PM
You need to label your sarcasm more clearly. Or use it more appropriately. Or something.

To clarify:

Wizard is a far better choice than Sorcerer, and is in fact less MAD than the Sorcerer. (Wizard casting is more flexible and advances more rapidly than Sorcerer casting; skillmonkeys love Intelligence; Spellthieves have a total of 2 Charisma-based skills, including UMD, which typically uses your Familiar's ability modifiers and not your own; and without staying until level 4+, Spellthieves have no spells available, making Charisma a dump stat.)

Depending on interpretations of Master Spellthief, the best Spellthief builds are typically:

Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5
Spellthief 9/Chameleon 10/whatever 1
or Spellthief 1/Full casting base class 19

...Depending on whether classes stack for spells retained and whether PrC's that advance casting count as spellcasting classes.

3 levels Spellthief is a bad choice for pretty much everybody. Just use the appropriate energy types, if you're going to blast.

Neraphim is good, though. Outsider type+shapeshifting is just downright mean.

I just use the 3 to make it match smoothly on my eyes (bad OCD). and I prefer the Sorcerer because then you only need 2 stats (really), Dex and Cha (dex for Initiative and AC, Cha for both casting) with con, str, and int as meh stats and WIS as a surefire dump

Greenish
2010-06-02, 01:57 PM
I just use the 3 to make it match smoothly on my eyes (bad OCD). and I prefer the Sorcerer because then you only need 2 stats (really), Dex and Cha (dex for Initiative and AC, Cha for both casting) with con, str, and int as meh stats and WIS as a surefire dumpHow do you use "Cha for both castings" when you only have one class with spells? :smallconfused:

Machiavellian
2010-06-02, 02:13 PM
How do you use "Cha for both castings" when you only have one class with spells? :smallconfused:

spellthief has 4th level casting...

Person_Man
2010-06-02, 02:30 PM
Hmmm, it's an interesting idea. There are numerous logistical problems though. First, you have to find a way to carry your captive around (Tensor's Disk or something similar). Second, you have to waste an attack action against an enemy that is already incapacitated to get a spell. Third, you have no way of knowing what spell you might get until you get the Discover Spells ability at 13th level. Fourth, you have no way of forcing your foe to memorize new spells. Fifth, your DM could always find a way to have your captive escape or have his friends find you and free him. So on balance, I would only keep a spellcasting prisoner captive as a spell battery if I was playing a high level Spellthief, and I would do so only once in a campaign for fear of DM/plot retribution.

But as Fax and others have illustrated, Spellthief 20 can be a perfectly playable build. You just need to party with the right builds. Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts can lend you their spell-like abilities without losing resources. And most full casters have more spells then they will ever use in a game day by level 10ish+. You also have UMD and Arcane Strike abuse to fall back on.

I'd also add that from a metagame perspective that it can be better to be mediocre most of the time and freaking awesome only some of the time. Because if you're freaking awesome all of the time, then your DM just ups the difficulty of all encounters. But if you're mediocre most of the time, then the difficulty is set to "normal" most of the time, and against certain enemies (in this case, spellcasters, who are among the most difficult and hard to predict foes) you rock the house. (As always, it depends on your DM and your gaming group).

Greenish
2010-06-02, 02:37 PM
spellthief has 4th level casting...Spellthief gets casting at fourth level. You only take three levels of it. Are you going to use one of the PrCs to advance ST casting instead of sorcerer casting? Can you even advance a casting you don't have?

Fax Celestis
2010-06-02, 02:56 PM
Depending on interpretations of Master Spellthief, the best Spellthief builds are typically:

Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5
Spellthief 9/Chameleon 10/whatever 1
or Spellthief 1/Full casting base class 19

What, no Spellthief 1/Duskblade 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 10/Whatever you want 4? Or how about Spellthief 8/Warblade 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 10?

JasonP
2010-06-02, 03:57 PM
I've wanted to try Daggerspell Mage with Spellthief, but haven't gotten to yet. That may be worth a try.

Thrice Dead Cat
2010-06-02, 05:39 PM
spellthief has 4th level casting...

And sorcerer casting >>>>>> spellthief casting. Also add to the fact that Unseen Seer can only advance one of the two, so pick the right one.

kladams707
2010-06-02, 05:48 PM
Back to the actual question, i'd rule that you'd still have to stab the guy b/c if he's conscious, he's probably unwilling. Though perhaps I'm partially biased b/c I like the image of stabbing a hogtied wizard to steal one of their spells.

As an aside, tell me i'm not the only one that's wanted to make a bardic lich that uses his paralyzing touch to steal spells.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-02, 05:49 PM
Depending on interpretations of Master Spellthief, the best Spellthief builds are typically:

Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5
Spellthief 9/Chameleon 10/whatever 1
or Spellthief 1/Full casting base class 19

...Depending on whether classes stack for spells retained and whether PrC's that advance casting count as spellcasting classes.

The way I see it, Master Spellthief was written the way it was to avoid builds like that first one, and PrC's that advance casting treat you as if you had levels in that class, meaning they're eligible for Master Spellthief.

I would rule that the # of spell levels that you can hold is not increased by Master Spellthief, making the bolded option the best one.

gallagher
2010-06-02, 06:01 PM
you know, i figure that a spellthief/warlock would be a decent build with master spellthief thrown in. a dash of hellfire and you are good to go. you hit on touch, deal your sneak attack, have cha synergy, and have all the tasty tasty skillpoints that warlocks find themselves wanting.

Yeturs
2010-06-02, 11:44 PM
Cool, thanks alot to the playground. I'm kind if a lurker so I don't post often :P

anyway, what about ranged weapons vs melée weapons? I'm going for more of a rogue then a full caster (though I like the builds and will prolly work up into one, I'm at first level sooooo)

and what book is that race you suggested in? That neraphim thingy. If I can't use that, would a lesser asimir be a good race? Or a wisper gnome?

Also, how much duress can a wizard/sorcerer/other full spell batteryimean full caster be in while he readys his mojo? Like, assuming I can browbeat him into submission to ready his spells/give them to me on threat of torture? I'm not a good aligned guy :P

By that I mean, can a hogtied and gaged wizard still prepare spells if I hold his book and turn the pages for him?

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 11:53 PM
you know, i figure that a spellthief/warlock would be a decent build with master spellthief thrown in. a dash of hellfire and you are good to go. you hit on touch, deal your sneak attack, have cha synergy, and have all the tasty tasty skillpoints that warlocks find themselves wanting.

It would be better than a straight warlock, but warlocks are weak anyway so that isn't really saying much. For one thing, you'd have to be within 30' to make use of those d6s, half the range of a regular EB and not a comfortable distance for most warlocks.