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Ceaon
2010-06-02, 08:04 AM
On these boards I frequently hear tales of people who are going to have (mostly) friendly PvP 1-on-1 matches to prove that full spellcasters are better than other classes. Often after being completely fed up with the other player claiming something like Fighter = Wizard or Monk = any other class.

However, I rarely, if ever, get to read the resolution of such confrontations.
And I would very much like to read such tales.

So, has anyone ever fought a fighter 20 with a wizard 20? Or the other way around? Maybe a monk-sorcerer duel? How did it go? What did you learn?

Note this is NOT meant to discuss fighter < wizard, monk > paladin or truenamer > a slightly smelly but still edible apple pie. Don't turn this thread into a discussion on balance between classes - please keep it civil. I am only interested in hearing how these oft-mentioned Wizard versus Fighter matches turn out and if they ever solve anything.

Aharon
2010-06-02, 08:07 AM
Truenamer > Fighter :smallbiggrin:

Sorry, won't do it.

Those debates did happen in our group, but I managed to convince the people who thought fighters are better without resorting to an actual dual. Explaining what exactly can be done within one timestop was enough.

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 08:21 AM
Test of Spite?

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 08:22 AM
PvP is a poor way to determine class balance, because that's not really how D&D plays out. A better way is to come up with various scenarios that could feasibly come up during an adventure, and pit the classes against each one to see how they handle it. In this way, you answer the question of "if I could only pick one of these characters for my party, which one would be the most useful to have?"

Generally, the wizard has an easier time of it, whether you let him select just the right spell(s) for the job and change them from scenario to scenario, or restrict him to a fixed set of universally useful spells. Even in challenges that play to the fighter's strengths, such as melee combat or athletics challenges, the wizard can easily equal or surpass the fighter. In challenges the fighter is weak in, such as social encounters or spatial combat (midair, underwater, interplanar etc.), there is very little contest.

Ceaon
2010-06-02, 08:24 AM
PvP is a poor way to determine class balance, because that's not really how D&D plays out. (...) there is very little contest.

I agree, but that's not really what this topic is about.

Heliomance
2010-06-02, 08:28 AM
There's been Wizard 13 vs Fighter 20 done, I think it came out about 50-50, mostly because it was actually Wizard 13 vs WBL 20.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-02, 08:30 AM
Truenamer vs Fighter? Gate, gate, gate?

Let the legions of monsters attack. No Exp cost.

Yukitsu
2010-06-02, 08:33 AM
I did 3 of the level 13s vs. 20s as a wizard all three times, and one all three, though one was by default. It came down to several rounds dispelling their best effects, defending myself until their defenses were down, and then hitting them with obscure save or dies.

mikej
2010-06-02, 08:38 AM
:smallfrown: I still get flak from those arguments in my circle of friends, involving the Fighter or some variety of Caster. Starting to think it wasn't worth it and I should have just left them to think whatever. Now it's like a toddler that lost his favorite toy. I can't even play any decent Caster without them going on needlessly about it or retreating into "We just want a fun low-powered game." It may sound bad but trust me they're farest from "low-powered" games. /rant

Ohh, yeah. There was something the OP wanted. :smalltongue:

Lycanthromancer a few years back did a Core Wizard vs Splatbook Fighter back on the old WoTC forums. Took me a bit to find it but here it is. Major props go to Lycanthromancer and whoever that other poor soul was. Wizard vs Fighter (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872034/A_Core-only_Wiz_20_vs_Splatbook_Ftr_20...?post_id=3384252 14#338425214)

Your disclaimer at the end is pointless. As starting a topic over end results of X Caster vs Y Non-Caster is like sailing on the Ocean and not finding Water. It's going to happen regardless if this thread kicks up.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-02, 08:40 AM
Popcorn! Popcorn! 5gp a box! Get your nice, fresh, hot popcorn here!

Aharon
2010-06-02, 08:42 AM
@Caeon
Sorry for the thread derailment, I'll keep it in spoilers.

@Starbuck_II
I was actually referring to Rebuild Item, and the exploitability of the exact wording of the level of utterances and the laws of sequence and resistance. I'm currently discussing the legality of these tricks with Zaq, the resident truenamer expert, in the last thread on the topic.

But even without these tricks, a truenamer can have a damage output of 11d6 at 1st level with a mortalbaned least word of nurturing, and 48d6 with a mortalbaned empowered potent word of nurturing and a quickened mortalbaned empowered potent word of nurturing at 10th level (with proper Truespeak optimisation, of course).


And to add something useful to the discussion:
I agree that test of spite is probably where we see the results - and also that melee builds are able to win sometimes if the casters are restricted (most abusive tactics banned).

J.Gellert
2010-06-02, 08:42 AM
On the table, we have done the following Pc Vs Pc fights:

Wizard vs Cleric, ~11th level (the Cleric won)
Fighter vs Cleric, 20th level (the Fighter won)
Three-way: Wizard vs Assassin vs Fighter, ~12 level (the Wizard won)

But there were so many variables each time that it's not really a good indicator (starting distance, items purchased, mood for cheese, sheer luck).

Just because an optimized wizard can beat an optimized fighter, doesn't mean that every optimized wizard will beat every optimized fighter :smalltongue:

[PS. I have significantly more PvP experience with online Neverwinter Nights, mainly at the 6-13 level range. But that's just core, and not even that (no flight) so fighters and fighter-types have it easy.]

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 08:44 AM
NWN heavily favors melee for a number of reasons.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-02, 08:46 AM
Popcorn! Popcorn! 5gp a box! Get your nice, fresh, hot popcorn here!

Here! Here!

mikej
2010-06-02, 08:49 AM
Popcorn! Popcorn! 5gp a box! Get your nice, fresh, hot popcorn here!

5gp a box? This better be the best popcorn ever! *digs out coins*


Fighter vs Cleric, 20th level (the Fighter won)

Explain please.

Aharon
2010-06-02, 08:49 AM
It does? I think it really favors an evoker - at least if the standard setting for regaining spells is used. Those force missiles were rather evil...

Gerrtt
2010-06-02, 08:49 AM
It wasn't fighter vs. wizard, but didn't TLN and Giacomo do this with barbarian and wizard? And didn't the fight only last one action?

Killer Angel
2010-06-02, 08:51 AM
Popcorn! Popcorn! 5gp a box! Get your nice, fresh, hot popcorn here!

Take 6gp, but I want also that coke...

OP: your best bet (in this forum) is the Test of Spite



Explain please.

Maybe the Cleric was still praying in the early morning... :smalltongue:

Aharon
2010-06-02, 08:51 AM
Did they nerf Black tentacles in a patch, then? I played an unpatched version, and that spell was evil if used buy a gnome or halfling...

Loads of damage, and I don't remember ever encountering an item of immunity to stun.

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 08:53 AM
5gp a box? This better be the best popcorn ever! *digs out coins*



Explain please.

NWN has an extremely limited amount of spells, even against core. (You can't even fly, no way to set up traps, etc.) Spells give far too many options to the users to implement quickly within a 6 second time period, and many of the more complex spells that are not straight numeric buffs or damage are too complicated. Save or dies are nerfed severely or don't exist, same for save or sucks. HP is boosted tremendously. NWN rulesets are a little friendlier to the mobile meleer.

Especially in epic NWN/NWN2, if you're solo and on a PvP server, you should be melee.

Amphetryon
2010-06-02, 08:57 AM
I'd be more interested in seeing a Tier 3, like a Duskblade, versus a Tier 4, like a Warlock, personally.

J.Gellert
2010-06-02, 08:58 AM
It was a core-only summer afternoon game. The fighter picked remarkably useful items with his 20th level wealth, and there was no pre-combat buffing.

I also suspect the cleric's player was slightly dazed from the effect of the Greek summer sun.

Unfortunately I don't remember exactly how the fight progressed... All I am certain of is that both were flying :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-06-02, 09:02 AM
Some Fighter 20 vs. Wizard 13s:
Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20: Fight 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129819)
Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20: Fight 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130067)
Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20: Fight 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130429)
Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20: Fight 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130622)
Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20: Fight 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131355)


Then there was that Giacomo Fighter 13 vs. Wizard 13 where neither really did anything and they ended the fight 'cause they got bored or something.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 09:02 AM
NWN heavily favors melee for a number of reasons.

Nah, they get a slight boost but casters still reign supreme.

3.0 Haste
3.0 Darkness
ILMS
IGMS
Greater Stoneskin
Premonition
Bigby's X
Ice Storm
The various "sheathe" spells that cause the BSF to take massive damage per hit
etc.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-02, 09:07 AM
Maybe the Cleric was still praying in the early morning... :smalltongue:

Or simply making poo.

Arakune
2010-06-02, 09:16 AM
Nah, they get a slight boost but casters still reign supreme.

3.0 Haste
3.0 Darkness
ILMS
IGMS
Greater Stoneskin
Premonition
Bigby's X
Ice Storm
The various "sheathe" spells that cause the BSF to take massive damage per hit
etc.

At least at NWN1 there's the summon line spells that lasts forever, and at epic Even Gate lasts a lot. Eventually you get the Dragon Knight epic spell (it's not like you have anything better to get after Epic Mage Armor) and Disjunction strips him of all his magic bonus without destroying the loot. It's doable but sadly, It looks like meele wins the day because the wizard himself rarely engage personally in combat. The only time after 8th level I bothered with anything besides buffs where in the expansion set where dozens of lower level enemies where engaging coming and I was pressed for time. Those flame arrows and the Weird/Wail of banshee spell sure are nice to have...

Murdim
2010-06-02, 09:17 AM
Popcorn! Popcorn! 5gp a box! Get your nice, fresh, hot popcorn here!
Meh.

*casts Empowered Maximised Summon Snack Food*

Vizzerdrix
2010-06-02, 09:34 AM
Okay. I don't remember what the beat stick's build was, but mine was wizard-12/ MMPS-3. All books and dragon mags, and accepted 3rd party books. I'd taken a humming bird familiar and equipment to buff my init.

It was a best of three.

First combat: in a sealed cave. We messed around in the dark for a bit. He used explosives to flush out my invisible self but failed. It ended with a force cage, Rock to Mud, then mud to rock. I buried him alive.

Second was on a ship. Round 1. I blasted the beat stick in the face with two chained launch bolts for around 400 damage.

I Had a belt of battle,
an eager/warning staff
40~ish +1 splitting bolts (they also had the enchatment that does +5 dmage. forgot its name)
a few locations
Greater Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis
Translocation Anklet
A book with Explosive Runes: x200

He had several alchemical devices. Most noteable was the bombs that did 6d6 damage.
His primary weapon was the blades from God of War (found them in a dragon Mag)

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 10:35 AM
At least at NWN1 there's the summon line spells that lasts forever, and at epic Even Gate lasts a lot. Eventually you get the Dragon Knight epic spell (it's not like you have anything better to get after Epic Mage Armor) and Disjunction strips him of all his magic bonus without destroying the loot. It's doable but sadly, It looks like meele wins the day because the wizard himself rarely engage personally in combat. The only time after 8th level I bothered with anything besides buffs where in the expansion set where dozens of lower level enemies where engaging coming and I was pressed for time. Those flame arrows and the Weird/Wail of banshee spell sure are nice to have...

I'm not sure how you concluded that melee wins from all that. :smallconfused:
Unless you're counting a wizard's summons as melee... even if we go that route, the summoner has major disadvantages vs. the blaster in NWN. Queue up Greater Invis + IGMS x3 behind a Time Stop - even if you don't end the encounter immediately, you are well-positioned to do so a few rounds later.

jseah
2010-06-02, 10:39 AM
^NWN:

There's also the entire problem of no environmental damage. A lot of the more creative caster tricks involves the third dimension and the ability to change terrain, which NWN completely disallows.

I wonder if anyone made a mod that added in the functionality it was supposed to have.
Although I suppose terrain changing attacks would break the pathfinder.

EDIT:
I got bored mainly because it was always run in with timestop, blast everything in sight and chain timestops if they aren't dead. Rest and repeat.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-02, 11:05 AM
I've never done Wizard vs. Fighter, but my friends and I have done a couple of PVP matches.

Once, I played a fighter 20 vs. a monk 20. It was something of a stalemate, primarily because the monk had maxed cross-class UMD and was using healing spells and other defenses to keep himself alive. We both agreed that if a monk needed to use magic devices to keep himself alive against a fighter he could barely touch, the match ended in the fighter's favor.

I also played 'referee' during a fight between a dread necromancer 20 and a... wizard 20? I think it was a wizard.

Anyway, it was another close match, but in the end the wizard won with a well-placed Disintegrate spell that the Dread Necro nat. 1'd his Fort. save against. I was convinced the wizard would have made a mockery of the Dread Necro, but he put up a surprisingly good showing.

Doc Roc
2010-06-02, 11:21 AM
Popcorn! Popcorn! 5gp a box! Get your nice, fresh, hot popcorn here!

I'll take a two pack! Let me go look for my W13 v F20.
Edit:
Eldariel already found my match. Here's a link to the ToS matches instead. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8399981&postcount=3)

Ceaon
2010-06-02, 11:43 AM
Your disclaimer at the end is pointless. As starting a topic over end results of X Caster vs Y Non-Caster is like sailing on the Ocean and not finding Water. It's going to happen regardless if this thread kicks up.

Yeah, you're right, I guess. It's there because I wanted to let everyone know that's not my intention with this thread. :smallwink:
The rest of your post is quite interesting; it's actually what I'm more interested in. Not how does a wizard win, but what happens directly after you've 'proven' Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards.

Just the same, though, thanks for the links, everyone. Those are interesting threads to say the least!

Doc Roc
2010-06-02, 11:52 AM
Let me just momentarily espouse my love for Create Dread Warrior. It's in unapproachable east, I believe.

Starbuck_II
2010-06-02, 12:15 PM
Wait, what do you mean no way to set traps?

I do it all the time (buy only average or minor traps as I don't put many points into set trap).

I mean, what else am I going to do with all the traps I take from trapped areas?

Granted I'm usually Rogue 1/Caster 3/Rogue 1 /Caster rest (evasion is nice).

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 12:17 PM
I meant magical traps. There are no boxes of explosive runes with dispel magic tricks.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 12:19 PM
Wait, what do you mean no way to set traps?

I do it all the time (buy only average or minor traps as I don't put many points into set trap).

I mean, what else am I going to do with all the traps I take from trapped areas?

Granted I'm usually Rogue 1/Caster 3/Rogue 1 /Caster rest (evasion is nice).

Shrink Item beats just about any mechanical trap in DnD.... And it gets more and more ridiculous as you use your creativity on a class that can do just about anything with enough ingenuity... there's no possible way to replicate a fullcasters options in a game that doesn't involve humans saying what happens rather than a computer.

Draz74
2010-06-02, 01:02 PM
Back in Summer '07, there was a pretty cool little round-robin tournament going for a few months, run by Lord_Sylvanus, who later cultivated a reputation as the Forum's general Game Rules Expert. It was a series of duels between Level 10 Core-Only characters (one of each class).

Only a handful of duels were completed before people got bored and scrapped it. I'm proud to say my Ranger was still alive in his duel against Jade_Tarem's Wizard at that point. And had dealt significant damage to the Wizard, too. (Granted, the Ranger was Feebleminded, so she was kind of in trouble. But not doomed ... stealth skills are an awesome defense, even if they do tend to make the game move very slowly.)

I only remember two other results: the Druid beat the Monk (first-round Baleful Polymorph, the Monk rolled its Fortitude save poorly) and the Fighter beat the Cleric (spent much of its wealth on a Necklace of Fireballs that the Cleric wasn't prepared for!).

shadow_archmagi
2010-06-02, 01:20 PM
Once, ingame, my Psion 7/Artificer 7 got into an argument with the party's Fighter/Ranger 7


Psion uses: BODY CONTROL
Fighter uses: FORT SAVE!
Fighter uses: COUNTERATTACK! STAB STAB STAB
Psion uses: ELAN DAMAGE BLOCK
Psion uses: BODY CONTROL
Fighter uses: FORT FAIL
Psion uses: Solicit Psicrystal! Control Object!
Fighter's Body Uses: Stick head into puddle and begin drowning!
Psion's Levitating Brick uses: Bash fighter's head for 1d6+7 damage!
Psion's Levitating Brick uses: Bash fighter's head for 1d6+7 damage!
Psion's Levitating Brick uses: Bash fighter's head for 1d6+7 damage!
Psion's Levitating Brick uses: Bash fighter's head for 1d6+7 damage!
Psion's Levitating Brick uses: Bash fighter's head for 1d6+7 damage!
Fighter Uses: Die


The best part was that we had just taken a bunch of enemies prisoner. They talked really readily after watching that.

DaDude9211
2010-06-02, 02:06 PM
Psion uses: BODY CONTROL


Where was the rest of the party?

Another_Poet
2010-06-02, 02:21 PM
Ii played the Tarrasque in a Fighter v. Tarrasque tournament. See the sig for the link. The result was...


A 3.5 fighter can trash a Pathfinder tarrasque all on his own. There is almost nothing the tarrasque can do to hope to win.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-02, 02:23 PM
Where was the rest of the party?

Probably watching.
and eating popcorn

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-02, 02:39 PM
Probably watching.
and eating popcornAnd laughing at the fighter.

shadow_archmagi
2010-06-02, 02:42 PM
Where was the rest of the party?

It was a small game; the only other party member was some sort of gish. Binder/something. Crusader?

His role in the fight was to do his best to warn the fighter and then shake his head and sigh.

Ditto
2010-06-02, 03:00 PM
Here it is, Draz. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36559
I loved that tournament... I GM'd two matches almost-to-completion. A single-use-item dependant Fighter spanked the Sorcerer.

Another_Poet, that's not true - the tarrasque can hide in a pool of poo and lie in wait. That worked pretty well!

Chrono22
2010-06-02, 03:05 PM
No, but I did fight as a 40th level wizard against a 360th level (boatloads of warrior-type classes) as a bet.

Needless to say, I won the bet. He didn't stand a lantern archon's chance in Baator.

Gametime
2010-06-02, 03:14 PM
Some Fighter 20 vs. Wizard 13s:
Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20: Fight 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129819)
Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20: Fight 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130067)
Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20: Fight 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130429)
Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20: Fight 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130622)
Wizard 13 vs. Fighter 20: Fight 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131355)


Then there was that Giacomo Fighter 13 vs. Wizard 13 where neither really did anything and they ended the fight 'cause they got bored or something.

If memory serves, the person playing the wizard wasn't able to reliably sign on to make his moves. The match started to drag on, with longer pauses between each turn, until the wizard suggested they call it a draw because he didn't have time to keep playing.

Giacomo took this as evidence that the classes are balanced. Your mileage may vary with regard to the accuracy of that assessment.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-02, 03:21 PM
Sometimes I wonder if 4th edition is a sort of overreaction by designers part for threads like this :smallconfused:

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 03:23 PM
No, but I did fight as a 40th level wizard against a 360th level (boatloads of warrior-type classes) as a bet.

Needless to say, I won the bet. He didn't stand a lantern archon's chance in Baator.

What?:smallconfused: DnD 3.5 can't even manage 15th level let alone 20th.

Chrono22
2010-06-02, 03:27 PM
well
It was epic level play. And yes it was dirty and overly complex. But it's doable.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 03:31 PM
well
It was epic level play. And yes it was dirty and overly complex. But it's doable.

What WBL were you using out of interest?

Gametime
2010-06-02, 03:34 PM
What WBL were you using out of interest?

Well, the ELH has WBL for up to 40th level characters. 13,600,000 GP for a 40th level character.

At 360th level, I have to imagine you'd be able to afford every item you could possibly want along with several major artifacts.

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-02, 03:49 PM
Well, the ELH has WBL for up to 40th level characters. 13,600,000 GP for a 40th level character.

At 360th level 9th level with Lesser Planar Binding, I have to imagine you'd be able to afford every item you could possibly want along with several major artifacts.

Fixed that for you.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 03:57 PM
Yeah, but at 360th you aren't breaking the game... It's manditory. Total madness.

The Shadowmind
2010-06-02, 04:15 PM
Popcorn! Popcorn! 5gp a box! Get your nice, fresh, hot popcorn here!

Throws a platinum your way. Keep the change.

I'm interested in debating whether the true namer is greater or worst than the apple pie. The pie has a bit of a smell, but that otherwise a decent food product, and adding cheese to it is normally a bad idea, on the other hand the true namer barely functions without the cheese, and some people are lactose intolerant.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 04:16 PM
Throws a platinum your way. Keep the change.

I'm interested in debating whether the true namer is greater or worst than the apple pie. The pie has a bit of a smell, but that otherwise a decent food product, and adding cheese to it is normally a bad idea, on the other hand the true namer barely functions without the cheese, and some people are lactose intolerant.

Yeah, but every time around I come back to my wheat intolerant girlfriend and the horrible horrible smells she makes at three thirty in the morning.... sorry, was that TMI?

Gametime
2010-06-02, 04:22 PM
Fixed that for you.

But the 360th level character wasn't a spellcaster. :smalltongue:

Admittedly, you could hire castings of Lesser Planar Binding for far less than it would take to actually buy all the items the "fair" way, but still!

The Glyphstone
2010-06-02, 04:24 PM
But the 360th level character can probably buy quickened/free-action at-will slotless items of every spell in existence.


Fixed that for you.:biggrin:

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 04:30 PM
Yeah, but at 360th you aren't breaking the game... It's manditory. Total madness.

The only reason you're not breaking the game at 360th level is because the game was already broken at 21st level.

Prodan
2010-06-02, 04:33 PM
Yeah, but at 360th you aren't breaking the game... It's manditory. Total madness.

Madness?

THIS! IS! EPIC!

The Glyphstone
2010-06-02, 04:35 PM
*kicks Prodan down a well*

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 04:43 PM
The best part about super high epic games, to me, is the possibility that somewhere there is a 1 skill point a level Fighter in the triple digits who still hasn't bothered to put any ranks in anything that's not a class skill because it's just not worth it.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 04:44 PM
*hauls Prodan up out of the well. Dries him out, gives him a cocoa and a change of clothes in order to be able to kick his ass back down the well*

The Shadowmind
2010-06-02, 04:46 PM
Yeah, but every time around I come back to my wheat intolerant girlfriend and the horrible horrible smells she makes at three thirty in the morning.... sorry, was that TMI?

But you don't have to eat the pie to use it, throwing it at someone is a valid option.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 04:47 PM
And what do you think will happen to me if I throw her hand made pie accross the room? Cause I think they'll put an 18+ rating on that scene.

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 04:50 PM
I'm not touching this line of conversation. Too busy screaming in abject horror.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 04:52 PM
I'm not touching this line of conversation. Too busy screaming in abject horror.

Mememories....... turn your face to the moooooonnnnnliiiiighhhhttttt....

The Shadowmind
2010-06-02, 04:53 PM
And what do you think will happen to me if I throw her hand made pie accross the room? Cause I think they'll put an 18+ rating on that scene.

While I'm not expert in baking classes, there is probably a wheat replacement ACF that could be used on making to the pie. And, I never said the throw the pie made by her, just that throwing apple pies is a valid strategy.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-02, 04:53 PM
*cast meteor swarm down the well*


The best part about super high epic games, to me, is the possibility that somewhere there is a 1 skill point a level Fighter in the triple digits who still hasn't bothered to put any ranks in anything that's not a class skill because it's just not worth it.

Well, it happened to me to drop a +3 tome of intellect, at epic, and caster didn't need it because they needed at least the +4.

So the fighter gained something like 30 skill points, you can expand quite a bit your PC that way.

Greenish
2010-06-02, 04:54 PM
Well, it happened to me to drop a +3 tome of intellect, at epic, and caster didn't need it because they needed at least the +4.

So the fighter gained something like 30 skill points, you can expand quite a bit your PC that way.Skill points are not retroactively increased, though it seems to be a common houserule.

Flickerdart
2010-06-02, 04:55 PM
*cast meteor swarm down the well*



Well, it happened to me to drop a +3 tome of intellect, at epic, and caster didn't need it because they needed at least the +4.

So the fighter gained something like 30 skill points, you can expand quite a bit your PC that way.
You never gain skill points retroactively.

Edit: Unless you're a filthy ninja. :smallyuk:

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-02, 04:55 PM
Skill points are not retroactively increased, though it seems to be a common houserule.

*facepalms*

You are right. I missed it. Time to go to bed. Goodnight!

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 04:56 PM
Well, it happened to me to drop a +3 tome of intellect, at epic, and caster didn't need it because they needed at least the +4.

So the fighter gained something like 30 skill points, you can expand quite a bit your PC that way.

Only if you break the rules. Inherent bonus' add to level up skillpoints but aren't retroactive. Only source of bonus Skillpoints that I know of that's retroactive is the aging bonus for Dragons that gain Int as part of their changing age catagories and that's just part and parcel of their awesome subtype.

Edit: Dammit! Well at least I got the interesting digression part of the text in...

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 04:58 PM
*cast meteor swarm down the well*



Well, it happened to me to drop a +3 tome of intellect, at epic, and caster didn't need it because they needed at least the +4.

So the fighter gained something like 30 skill points, you can expand quite a bit your PC that way.

And yet, he's still likely terrible as all get out at doing backflips. Still amusing. :smallamused:

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 05:01 PM
And yet, he's still likely terrible as all get out at doing backflips. Still amusing. :smallamused:

plus he has no real way of valuing the sword loot that he got as part of the mission, dispite having sold fourteen thousand masterwork longswords.... go figure.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-02, 05:08 PM
As for Cityscape, you can exchange ride for tumble.

As a side information, in pathfinder is retroactive now.

Finally, until you improve the game, you can break every rule (but this time I did a mistake, not intentional rule-breaking! :smallwink:)

'night.

Wonton
2010-06-02, 07:24 PM
I'll take a two pack! Let me go look for my W13 v F20.
Edit:
Eldariel already found my match. Here's a link to the ToS matches instead. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8399981&postcount=3)

I read the whole W13 v F20 fight. All I can say is I felt your pain.

Doc Roc
2010-06-02, 07:32 PM
I read the whole W13 v F20 fight. All I can say is I felt your pain.

What you didn't see is the 350 or so PMs that poor Ernir had to read, consider, and respond to. Any accolades should go to him, as well as any indirected apologies. :smallsmile:
In net, it was a very unpleasant match, but not a very difficult one. I was never in danger of losing.

Jack_Simth
2010-06-02, 08:31 PM
PvP is a poor way to determine class balance, because that's not really how D&D plays out. A better way is to come up with various scenarios that could feasibly come up during an adventure, and pit the classes against each one to see how they handle it. In this way, you answer the question of "if I could only pick one of these characters for my party, which one would be the most useful to have?"

Generally, the wizard has an easier time of it, whether you let him select just the right spell(s) for the job and change them from scenario to scenario, or restrict him to a fixed set of universally useful spells. Even in challenges that play to the fighter's strengths, such as melee combat or athletics challenges, the wizard can easily equal or surpass the fighter. In challenges the fighter is weak in, such as social encounters or spatial combat (midair, underwater, interplanar etc.), there is very little contest.
I'd suggest a modification of that, actually.

See, even with a series of challenges, in table-play, you're almost never really alone.

You make the "Test Character" a fifth wheel to a complete (and statically-built) party of four NPC party members (statically built, down to NPC spell preparation and selection: When checking the usefulness of the Fighter-20, you use the same additional party - Core-built NPC Fighter-20, NPC Wizard-20, NPC Cleric-20, NPC Rogue-20 - as you do when checking the usefulness of the Wizard-20) . Then you have a series of challenges for the party... and you time how long it takes (all are solvable - full party). Losing an NPC is a 1-day penalty (imaginary immediate side-quest to get them raised - the imaginary player isn't willing to sit there twiddling his imaginary thumbs). You can rest whenever you like... but that adds time to your clock (it's the next day). You also run the party of four NPC's through the same set of challenges as a control test. The "Winning Class" is the one that, as a 5th wheel, cuts the most time off the challenges.

I've never seen anyone try it, though....

Fortuna
2010-06-02, 08:55 PM
The problem with that test is that there are certain roles already covered, and essentially useless, in your party of four NPCs. I suggest, as a slight tweak, that you would also need to let each one chose one NPC to replace, and time them that way too.

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-03, 04:31 AM
The only reason you're not breaking the game at 360th level is because the game was already broken at 21st level.

Fixed that for you, too.

It's hard to justify not breaking the game at lower levels when the game seems to be begging to be broken. "Here's a spell that lets you force an unwilling creature from another plane to do your bidding, classic wizard-style. But don't use it to bind creatures that can make you more powerful!"

Once 4th-level spells come on-line, even what passes for 'balance' is pretty much out the window.

On the main topic: Through simple logical argument, I've convinced those in my group who once thought martial characters have an edge over spellcasters that they were incorrect. (Of course, that doesn't stop anyone who wants to play a non-caster from doing so, nor should it. It's a game about teamwork and fun. They tend to treat themselves as the rank-and-file and the casters as the heavy artillery.) The only place I've seen anyone firmly believe that Fighters (or any other non-casting class) have any sort of edge over a full-caster is on an internet forum.

In some endurance-run situations, a Fighter might have a slight advantage, but that situation begs the question: How is he restoring his HP? Potions? Healing belts? Those things almost always require a spellcaster. Furthermore, once a rope trick that lasts 9 or more hours (8 for sleep and extra time to prep spells in the safety of the rope trick) becomes available (5th level with Extend Spell), that advantage is negated.


The problem with that test is that there are certain roles already covered, and essentially useless, in your party of four NPCs. I suggest, as a slight tweak, that you would also need to let each one chose one NPC to replace, and time them that way too.

So the Wizard has a party of 3 NPCs and no Fighter and the Fighter has a party of 4 NPCs and no Wizard?

Jack_Simth
2010-06-03, 07:17 AM
So the Wizard has a party of 3 NPCs and no Fighter and the Fighter has a party of 4 NPCs and no Wizard?
Part of the reason I suggested a party of 4 NPC's + Test Class: you don't get funny discrepancies of people thinking that.

AstralFire
2010-06-03, 09:44 AM
Fixed that for you, too.

It's hard to justify not breaking the game at lower levels when the game seems to be begging to be broken. "Here's a spell that lets you force an unwilling creature from another plane to do your bidding, classic wizard-style. But don't use it to bind creatures that can make you more powerful!"

Once 4th-level spells come on-line, even what passes for 'balance' is pretty much out the window.

On the main topic: Through simple logical argument, I've convinced those in my group who once thought martial characters have an edge over spellcasters that they were incorrect. (Of course, that doesn't stop anyone who wants to play a non-caster from doing so, nor should it. It's a game about teamwork and fun. They tend to treat themselves as the rank-and-file and the casters as the heavy artillery.) The only place I've seen anyone firmly believe that Fighters (or any other non-casting class) have any sort of edge over a full-caster is on an internet forum.

In some endurance-run situations, a Fighter might have a slight advantage, but that situation begs the question: How is he restoring his HP? Potions? Healing belts? Those things almost always require a spellcaster. Furthermore, once a rope trick that lasts 9 or more hours (8 for sleep and extra time to prep spells in the safety of the rope trick) becomes available (5th level with Extend Spell), that advantage is negated.



So the Wizard has a party of 3 NPCs and no Fighter and the Fighter has a party of 4 NPCs and no Wizard?

When I first started D&D, my DM informed me that monks were OP and banned them (after I got fascinated with deflecting arrows), and all casters got their BAB and HP bumped up a notch to balance them against all the feats Fighters got.

Greenish
2010-06-03, 09:51 AM
When I first started D&D, my DM informed me that monks were OP and banned them (after I got fascinated with deflecting arrows), and all casters got their BAB and HP bumped up a notch to balance them against all the feats Fighters got.You had d10 hitdice full BAB clerics and druids? :smallconfused:

AstralFire
2010-06-03, 09:52 AM
You had d10 hitdice full BAB clerics and druids? :smallconfused:

Yes. And d6 HP med BAB Wizards.

Sorcerers and Bards banned because spontaneous casting was broken. :smallamused:

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-03, 10:13 AM
Ooh, to be a player in THAT game to show him the error of his ways...

AstralFire
2010-06-03, 10:17 AM
Ooh, to be a player in THAT game to show him the error of his ways...

He started me at level 1 or 3 or something (forget) while everyone else was in their teens, because new players had to work their way up. But I also got armed with a ridiculous amount of major artifacts, like St. Cuthbert's cudgel. Our adventures mostly consisted of us talking to this level 20 Half-Dragon Fighter who was also a blacksmith.

It's really a wonder that D&D managed to capture me at all - it very nearly didn't - considering the people I played with for the first several years.

mikej
2010-06-03, 10:22 AM
The rest of your post is quite interesting; it's actually what I'm more interested in. Not how does a wizard win, but what happens directly after you've 'proven' Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards.

I don't think anyone answered this yet. So I'll take a swing at it. Not to sure about the question though. You mean what people say or do after you eventually proven "Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards?"

Well it's all a matter of different gaming group's perspectives. You're not going to get an exact answer here. I can only really state what I have experienced at the table.

As I see it, it can go two ways. You prove your point to the best you can do. After some mature debates the opposition gracefully admits defeat. You have provided the better argument and the other party concedes to your outstanding logic. This is all done in an mature respectfull manner. Kind of like an Debate Club in some Schools.

The other way is more common from what I have seen and not soo "mature." As I stated in my original post.
Me
Now it's like a toddler that lost his favorite toy. Most situation it turns into a huge mess and the opposition recents you for showing them the unconvienent truth. How dare you bring this "truth" thing after they get on your last nerve with "hahaa my Fighter can wallop your Wizard."

Like my little rant in my previous post. I have dealt with the aftermath of those Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards arguments. Let just say I haven't been in an serious gaming session since 2007 because of it. Some people really take offense about the Fighter being useless and worse off it's my oldest group of friends. To the OP if you want an more detailed description of what takes place afterwards just PM me.

Greenish
2010-06-03, 10:36 AM
Yes. And d6 HP med BAB Wizards.

Sorcerers and Bards banned because spontaneous casting was broken. :smallamused:Given that bards have an (undeserved) reputation for being weak, it seems that they're banned quite often.

monkey3
2010-06-03, 01:30 PM
Somewhat back on topic,,

I read a few of those battles and was disappointed. It seemed to be a battle of cheese vs cheese. I am talking about Solar Simulacrums and 27 wishes granted from Plainer Bound Efreets, etc. How does that prove the balance/imbalance of classes when 80% of those tactics would not be allowed in 80% of the campaigns played?

And to pick on the other side, a fighter who carries/uses a Greater Ring of SpellStoring with Disjunction in it might as well just admit that it takes a wizard to beat a wizard.

No personal offense intended if I picked on your specific cheese. These were mere examples of the great fondue that I saw in arena combat (there was plenty cheese out there to pick from).

DragoonWraith
2010-06-03, 01:41 PM
How does that prove the balance/imbalance of classes when 80% of those tactics would not be allowed in 80% of the campaigns played?
How does the fact that houserules are required to reign in casters prove that they are balanced?

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-03, 01:54 PM
How does the fact that houserules are required to reign in casters prove that they are balanced?

Being reasonable is an houserule?

AstralFire
2010-06-03, 01:56 PM
Being reasonable is an houserule?

Some things are universal enough to just say 'that won't happen in a game, ever' - drowning yourself to raise your HP, any variation of Pun-Pun (particularly the level 1), etc. Once you get past that, 'reasonable' varies. Half of the build crap that a lot of my friends here would allow, I would never dream of - but on the other hand I do a lot of 'sure, that action that you are not explicitly allowed sounds cool, go for it.'


Fixed that for you, too.

It's hard to justify not breaking the game at lower levels when the game seems to be begging to be broken. "Here's a spell that lets you force an unwilling creature from another plane to do your bidding, classic wizard-style. But don't use it to bind creatures that can make you more powerful!"

I view D&D pre-20 as extremely (and unreasonably) frail, but not broken, provided you play only as intended. 21, there is almost no way to hold it together under the official rules.

Draz74
2010-06-03, 02:07 PM
Somewhat back on topic,,

I read a few of those battles and was disappointed. It seemed to be a battle of cheese vs cheese. I am talking about Solar Simulacrums and 27 wishes granted from Plainer Bound Efreets, etc. How does that prove the balance/imbalance of classes when 80% of those tactics would not be allowed in 80% of the campaigns played?

And to pick on the other side, a fighter who carries/uses a Greater Ring of SpellStoring with Disjunction in it might as well just admit that it takes a wizard to beat a wizard.

No personal offense intended if I picked on your specific cheese. These were mere examples of the great fondue that I saw in arena combat (there was plenty cheese out there to pick from).

Well, obviously, in an Arena situation, whoever can get away with using cheesier tactics will win. It's just a matter of incentives that such things will never be entirely "reasonable."

The only way to prevent that would be to have a banlist that specifically rules out every cheesy rules abuse, ever. But there are two problems with that:

It's very subjective. Very hard to make a group of more than 5 people agree on what should and shouldn't be banned (especially over the Internet).
It would be HUGE. A veritable tome, if it were really to cover all possible rules abuses.


Notably, the Test of Spite and the Penny Dreadfuls on this forum have made a more valiant effort than most to produce such a banlist. However, the level of power they find palatable is still what many other people would call "cheese." Further down-powering the game from what they've listed would mean an even bigger banlist than the Test of Spite rules.

Gametime
2010-06-03, 02:08 PM
In some endurance-run situations, a Fighter might have a slight advantage, but that situation begs the question raises the question: How is he restoring his HP?

Fixed that for you. :smalltongue:


Being reasonable is an houserule?

When the rules aren't reasonable, it is. When the attempted exploit is the result of something not being explicitly stated in the rules, perhaps, there isn't any houseruling going on. I don't think being unable to take actions while dead, for example, is a houserule, despite lack of textual support.

But just because Simulacrum is a fairly ridiculous spell doesn't mean it'll be universally banned. Even if it is, it's not the result of some crazy loophole or combining several different sourcebooks with unforeseen consequences; it is a single spell, from the most basic of character creation books. It is impossible to evaluate the state of the rules if you ignore parts of them, and broken spells (not broken builds or broken combinations but broken spells) are very much a part of the D&D rules.

Prodan
2010-06-03, 02:09 PM
Somewhat back on topic,,

I read a few of those battles and was disappointed. It seemed to be a battle of cheese vs cheese. I am talking about Solar Simulacrums and 27 wishes granted from Plainer Bound Efreets, etc. How does that prove the balance/imbalance of classes when 80% of those tactics would not be allowed in 80% of the campaigns played?


To proceed, I must ask you what is allowed in 80% of campaigns played, and why we have chosen that number.

Greenish
2010-06-03, 02:11 PM
Fixed that for you. :smalltongue:*cheers* :smallcool:

monkey3
2010-06-03, 02:28 PM
One man's cheese is another's tactic. But Solar Simulacrums and Bound Efreet's are cheese for > 80% of the people.

The 80% number came from PunPun, and he is not wrong.

shadow_archmagi
2010-06-03, 03:00 PM
One man's cheese is another's tactic. But Solar Simulacrums and Bound Efreet's are cheese for > 80% of the people.

The 80% number came from PunPun, and he is not wrong.

The difficulty is that Simulacrum, if I recall correctly, is ultimately printed as

"Get a free minion! Whatever kind you want!" so using it to get a free minion isn't exactly unexpected. I was under the impression that "Cheese" meant using something in an unexpected way to yield a far greater benefit than intended.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-03, 04:33 PM
Some things are universal enough to just say 'that won't happen in a game, ever' - drowning yourself to raise your HP, any variation of Pun-Pun (particularly the level 1), etc. Once you get past that, 'reasonable' varies. Half of the build crap that a lot of my friends here would allow, I would never dream of - but on the other hand I do a lot of 'sure, that action that you are not explicitly allowed sounds cool, go for it.'


I can see similarities with my point of view..



But just because Simulacrum is a fairly ridiculous spell doesn't mean it'll be universally banned. Even if it is, it's not the result of some crazy loophole or combining several different sourcebooks with unforeseen consequences; it is a single spell, from the most basic of character creation books. It is impossible to evaluate the state of the rules if you ignore parts of them, and broken spells (not broken builds or broken combinations but broken spells) are very much a part of the D&D rules.


I can see for simulacrum - even if, the HD ---> adequate power thing could be debatable.

I always found ridiculous chain gates and the like... I always considered D&D universe as dynamic, and dinamically reacing to abuse. I admit without any problem that something is in the raw, but most in the fluff.

This is not to say that I don't recognize absurdities - your example is a very good one. Nevertheless, I prefer this system - is better suited to describe the kind of magic, mystery and musltiverse I enjoy. Then, I can throw in every in-game balance I need.

Anyway, I think arenas are pointless in a situational game like D&D. they prove nothing.

Greenish
2010-06-03, 04:45 PM
Anyway, I think arenas are pointless in a situational game like D&D.They're as pointless as the rest of the game. The point is to play a game and enjoy yourself, and I don't see how playing cooperatively instead of competitively is intrinsically better.

Perhaps you meant "using arena fights to gauge the effectiveness of classes in other styles of play is pointless".

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-03, 04:49 PM
Perhaps you meant "using arena fights to gauge the effectiveness of classes in other styles of play is pointless".

I meant this.. I was thinking it was implied seeing the thread title. Thank you for making it more clear.

shadow_archmagi
2010-06-03, 05:28 PM
Discussing whether an arena challenge is an effective measurement is not the purpose of this thread.

In this thread we are to report the findings of arena challenges, or ingame duels.

I also once had a Sorcerer/Artificer teamed with a Fighter/Paladin in an arena challenge. I know we fought three rounds, but I can't recall the first. However


ROUND TWO: Two scary ghosts
TURN ONE: I use fire off a Twinned Maximized fireball. They die.

ROUND THREE: A rock golem
TURN ONE: Solid Fog
TURN TWO: Black Tentacles
TURN THREE: Grease
TURNS FOUR-FIFTEEN: Golem occasionally takes crushing damage
TURN SIXTEEN: I let the fighter have his fun simply because I don't want to waste any more spells today.

oxybe
2010-06-03, 06:09 PM
arena style games do have a purpose other then wagging your D&Dpeen: effectively gauging a class's ability against another.

on first look a fighter looks awesome due to high HP, a good BAB & a load of feats to branch in different combat styles or super-focus into one, but (and especially) in high level play, this is not so much of an asset... at least in my experience where the gist of the enemies have class levels. the last 3.5 campaign i played in the most the enemies were classed. we fought a few demons towards the end of it (and some were demons with class levels), but it was mostly humanoids with class levels (this game went from 1-20, our last session's exp put us at 21).

our current pathfinder game has been that way too, though we're still low level, all humans/theiflings with class levels (with a few rare exceptions. like skeledogs. those were jerks).

Fighter VS Wizard, Monk VS Cleric, Commoner VS Expert... in campaigns like most of the ones i play in allows a good perspective on what to expect and what kind of tricks work on what kind of enemies.

fighter-types just rarely have the options available to pose a threat against a caster, baring using a lot of use-activated items that cast spells or UMDing scrolls/wands/staves (who can often change the terrain, fight in 3 dimensions, call in support of various types, use non-damage to hurt/disable their enemies [ray of enfeeblement, shivering touch, enervation, yadda yadda], ect... in addition to doing strait up damage)... and at that point (as someone else said) if you beat the wizard it's because you emulated a wizard... not by playing a fighter.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-06-04, 11:28 AM
I've thought about what jack smith proposed, placing the characters to be rated in a generic party and seeing how well the party does with their addition (or inplace of the most similar character). I think in addition would be better in the case of trying to "prove" the tier system because if you're replacing your own class you're just proving that you're more better built than your counterpart than your opponent is built better than his counterpart and if you replaced your opponents counterpart you open the door to the "team game" fighter defense.


My idea was to rate individual builds not to compare 1-20 single class characters hence replacement. It wasn't very well recieved, the general concensus being that you should be able to eyeball where a build falls if you understand the tier system.

So would does anyone have any interest in "proving" that wizard < or = or > fighter in an otherwise identical party identical encounter setting?

Wonton
2010-06-04, 02:35 PM
Having read Lycanthromancer's 20v20 fight (this one (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872034/A_Core-only_Wiz_20_vs_Splatbook_Ftr_20...?post_id=3384252 14#338425214)), did he really need to Gate in two Gold Dragons? :smallconfused:

Personally, I'd like to see a 20v20 fight where there's no Gate, Shapechange, or Simulacra. When you use Gate to beat a Fighter, all you prove is that Gate is broken. If you can beat him in a one-on-one (no familiars, no solars) by doing damage to him yourself, that would be a better indicator.

P.S. Upon, actually reading page 3...


Somewhat back on topic,,

I read a few of those battles and was disappointed. It seemed to be a battle of cheese vs cheese. I am talking about Solar Simulacrums and 27 wishes granted from Plainer Bound Efreets, etc. How does that prove the balance/imbalance of classes when 80% of those tactics would not be allowed in 80% of the campaigns played?

And to pick on the other side, a fighter who carries/uses a Greater Ring of SpellStoring with Disjunction in it might as well just admit that it takes a wizard to beat a wizard.

No personal offense intended if I picked on your specific cheese. These were mere examples of the great fondue that I saw in arena combat (there was plenty cheese out there to pick from).

This is the same sentiment I was trying to express. We seem to be a minority here, but I agree with you. The 80% or whatever numbers aren't important, the point is:

I hope people will agree that Planar Binding/Simulacrums/Shapechange/Efreet Wishes are some of the more broken things the wizard can do (not most - more). Using them just leads to sentiments like "Pff, if it wasn't for the solar, the fighter would have won...". Beat the fighter without tricks like that to produce a much more telling result.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-04, 02:38 PM
Having read Lycanthromancer's 20v20 fight (this one (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872034/A_Core-only_Wiz_20_vs_Splatbook_Ftr_20...?post_id=3384252 14#338425214)), did he really need to Gate in two Gold Dragons? :smallconfused:

Personally, I'd like to see a 20v20 fight where there's no Gate, Shapechange, or Simulacra. When you use Gate to beat a Fighter, all you prove is that Gate is broken. If you can beat him in a 1v1 (no familiars, no solars) by doing damage to him yourself, that would be a better indicator.That was round 1. He conceded after I beat him twice using almost no resources.

I had about 50 other ways to beat his pants off, but I never got the chance to use them.

And to be blunt, take away all of the overpowered things about a wizard to prove a point, and what have you proven? That wizards are balanced if you take away everything they have.

Sliver
2010-06-04, 02:41 PM
If you can beat him in a 1v1 (no familiars, no solars) by doing damage to him yourself, that would be a better indicator.

Huh? :smallconfused:

There are many types of wizards. Why only the evoker (or any other damage dealing wizard) is the "good indicator"? I don't think that matching damage is the way to compare class power. Far from it.

Wonton
2010-06-04, 02:49 PM
That was round 1. He conceded after I beat him twice using almost no resources.

I had about 50 other ways to beat his pants off, but I never got the chance to use them.

And to be blunt, take away all of the overpowered things about a wizard to prove a point, and what have you proven? That wizards are balanced if you take away everything they have.

I am by no means in the pro-fighter camp. I don't think the two classes are balanced in the least. :smallconfused:

I just think that even using medium power (set phasers to stun) would be enough to defeat a fighter, and would prove the imbalance better.


Huh? :smallconfused:

There are many types of wizards. Why only the evoker (or any other damage dealing wizard) is the "good indicator"? I don't think that matching damage is the way to compare class power. Far from it.

I didn't say "evoker" or "direct damage" (though I guess I may have led people to infer that - oops). I just meant using more direct effects to get the job done. Cloudkill, Save-or-Dies, massive debuffs are all perfectly viable too. Hell, even a Split Ray Empowered Maximized Ray of Stupidity.

Gametime
2010-06-04, 02:55 PM
I am by no means in the pro-fighter camp. I don't think the two classes are balanced in the least. :smallconfused:

I just think that even using medium power (set phasers to stun) would be enough to defeat a fighter, and would prove the imbalance better.



That's true, but even that concession is a slippery slope to no benefit. Use your big guns, and your opposition can cry foul. After all, wizards aren't broken, right? They just have one or two (or several dozen) broken spells! This match didn't prove anything because the wizard used Gate, or Shapechange, or Wish, or Simulacrum, or whatever.

Use your sidearms, and the match is likely to be a lot closer. After all, the wizard won, but it wasn't a blowout or anything. The fighter almost landed a few killing blows! Sure, the fighter lost, but he came close to winning, and that proves the classes are balanced.

If people are determined to see parity where there is none, no number of actual duels will convince them otherwise. They will set arbitrary limitations on the conditions of the match, disregard victories that come from "cheesy" methods, and re-interpret losses as draws or near-misses to suit their own position. No amount of careful spell choice is going to change that.

Claudius Maximus
2010-06-04, 03:07 PM
I seriously don't see a good distinction between a class being broken and class features exclusive to that class being broken. A wizard is nothing without his spells, so his power is directly the result of the power of his spells. You can't really argue "It's not the wizard that's broken, just the spells."

Gametime
2010-06-04, 03:13 PM
I seriously don't see a good distinction between a class being broken and class features exclusive to that class being broken. A wizard is nothing without his spells, so his power is directly the result of the power of his spells. You can't really argue "It's not the wizard that's broken, just the spells."

No, but if (hypothetically) there was only one broken wizard spell, I think people would be justified in saying that wizards were balanced (so long as you avoid SPELLOFDOOM).

That isn't even close to the case in 3.5, but if your strategy in a duel relies extensively on one obviously broken spell, it allows people proposing that 3.5 is balanced to (falsely) claim that your victory was due purely to that one spell and ignore the myriad other spells that allow wizards to reshape reality.

Of course, no amount of spell diversity in your victories is likely to silence such naysayers; more likely, they'd start decrying your spell "combos" as broken, instead of your individual spells, and still refuse to admit that the class itself is a hot mess.

tyckspoon
2010-06-04, 03:17 PM
If people are determined to see parity where there is none, no number of actual duels will convince them otherwise. They will set arbitrary limitations on the conditions of the match, disregard victories that come from "cheesy" methods, and re-interpret losses as draws or near-misses to suit their own position. No amount of careful spell choice is going to change that.

I'm generally in agreement with you, but I feel there is some worth in the opposite viewpoint- there are a large number if spells that can take down a Fighter, and the argument is probably more convincingly made when you put down a level 20 character with 4 spells of level 5 or below than when you nova out 4 level 9 spells (say, Greater Invis, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion x2 will pretty thoroughly bone a Fighter. Sure, there are countermeasures, but they're fairly expensive ones for the fighter, and that's well under half of the Wizard's power being deployed. He could have three other kill/disable techniques memorized at the same time. Maybe he'll Maze you and then set a Prismatic Sphere around where you'll reappear, should he deem you worthy of 9th level spells.)

Wonton
2010-06-04, 06:10 PM
No, but if (hypothetically) there was only one broken wizard spell, I think people would be justified in saying that wizards were balanced (so long as you avoid SPELLOFDOOM).

That isn't even close to the case in 3.5, but if your strategy in a duel relies extensively on one obviously broken spell, it allows people proposing that 3.5 is balanced to (falsely) claim that your victory was due purely to that one spell and ignore the myriad other spells that allow wizards to reshape reality.

I've seen it referred to as something along the lines of The Unholy Quadrilateral of Doom - Shapechange, Time Stop, Gate, Wish.


Of course, no amount of spell diversity in your victories is likely to silence such naysayers; more likely, they'd start decrying your spell "combos" as broken, instead of your individual spells, and still refuse to admit that the class itself is a hot mess.

You are 100% correct - there's no good fix here.

taltamir
2010-06-04, 06:25 PM
NWN has an extremely limited amount of spells, even against core. (You can't even fly, no way to set up traps, etc.) Spells give far too many options to the users to implement quickly within a 6 second time period, and many of the more complex spells that are not straight numeric buffs or damage are too complicated. Save or dies are nerfed severely or don't exist, same for save or sucks. HP is boosted tremendously. NWN rulesets are a little friendlier to the mobile meleer.

Especially in epic NWN/NWN2, if you're solo and on a PvP server, you should be melee.

all true... also NWN is super monty haul... we are talking about "boots of always on haste" and "amulet of regenration + immunity to all ability damage/drains + immunity to all poison and disease" being fairly minor items; you are basically equipped from head to toe in artifacts... You basically carry gear that makes you neigh immune to all good magic, reducing the casters to direct damage only... (mostly from force effect...) Quicken doesn't work but haste gives you 2 spells per round (so you REALLY want those boots of always on haste).
with a "issak greater missile storm" is a higher level magic missile that does 1 missile per CL up to 20 missiles, and 2d6 damage per missile. Since enemies become immune to anything BUT force damage later on you go around with nothing but Magic missile, lesser missile storm, and greater missile storm (And their metamagics)... You can dish out 480 force damage a round that way.

most other DD is severely nerfed in that metamagic is terribly nerfed so you can't get good DD with the exception of the magic missile line.

Also you face endless hordes of monsters that swarm you, and since you must solo you have no tank...
so your wizard has no tank, no flight... basically no way to get out of harms way (sans improved invisibility which isn't "perfect" against the AI)...

However, wizards still rock if they play AS "mostly fighters who occasionally nuke with missile storm"... You want to arm yourself as above (immunity to anything items), with a good weapon and tons of super-magical gear.
You use buffs to make yourself an effective fighter (there are some insane buffs, such as flaming sword, a level 1 spell that gives +CL*d6 fire damage per hit with a weapon for hours/CL; in NWN2 I think its 1d4+CL up to +10)

its amazingly tedious though to put on all those buffs... and really, in the end its just better to play a fighter... Great cleave is just awesome..

It is interesting to note that in NWN/NWN2 there is no such thing as a reach weapon. and enlarge does not give you extra reach

Oh, I forgot the rod of ghost... there is a level 2 spell that gives you 5/- DR and 20% concealment and immunity to level 1 spells... lasts 24 hours...
Rods do NOT require UMD to use... and rods of ghost of casting it X/day are plentiful and super cheap (heck, you find some for free) and DO NOT require UMD to use. So you always walk with it on... later on you get nicer versions of it, which increase concealment, DR, and immunity level of spells.
(in custom campaigns where you don't find it in rod form this is an advantage to wizard, I just give my wizard a sword and have it use this spell and its better than an equivalent level fighter)

JonestheSpy
2010-06-04, 06:56 PM
Just out of curiosity, did any of those duels take place in spaces with ceilings?

shadow_archmagi
2010-06-04, 07:51 PM
Just out of curiosity, did any of those duels take place in spaces with ceilings?


Mine was in a sewer.

EDIT: At "Spells are broken, not wizards"


The idea here is that in theory, DMs will ban individual spells a lot faster than whole classes. Often, when people describe how broken wizards are, they'll bring up the classic overpowered spells.

The thing is that even the less-broken-but-still-good spells seriously outdo the fighter. Glitterdust, Grease, etc are all wonderful.

EDIT2: I suppose ultimately, given the state of Fantasy architecture, a SEWER WITH A LOW CEILING.

Gametime
2010-06-04, 07:57 PM
The idea here is that in theory, DMs will ban individual spells a lot faster than whole classes. Often, when people describe how broken wizards are, they'll bring up the classic overpowered spells.

The thing is that even the less-broken-but-still-good spells seriously outdo the fighter. Glitterdust, Grease, etc are all wonderful.

Precisely. The question is how many of the wizard's spells are too powerful for their cost. The answer is "far too many of them," and a great number of the ones that aren't too powerful are too weak, which makes banning the overpowered spells very difficult to use as an actual balancing mechanism.

taltamir
2010-06-04, 08:18 PM
No, but if (hypothetically) there was only one broken wizard spell, I think people would be justified in saying that wizards were balanced (so long as you avoid SPELLOFDOOM).

That isn't even close to the case in 3.5, but if your strategy in a duel relies extensively on one obviously broken spell, it allows people proposing that 3.5 is balanced to (falsely) claim that your victory was due purely to that one spell and ignore the myriad other spells that allow wizards to reshape reality.

Of course, no amount of spell diversity in your victories is likely to silence such naysayers; more likely, they'd start decrying your spell "combos" as broken, instead of your individual spells, and still refuse to admit that the class itself is a hot mess.

That is absolutely true.
IF there was only 1 spell of doom that was broken you could say "the wizard isn't broken, spell of doom is"...

but there isn't one, there are HUNDREDS of them, literally hundreds.

Yukitsu
2010-06-04, 08:19 PM
I hope people will agree that Planar Binding/Simulacrums/Shapechange/Efreet Wishes are some of the more broken things the wizard can do (not most - more). Using them just leads to sentiments like "Pff, if it wasn't for the solar, the fighter would have won...". Beat the fighter without tricks like that to produce a much more telling result.

Actually, I could have gotten the same mathematic results with a polymorph any object, raise dead or summon monster. A simulacrum without wish (you'll note I deliberately dropped it) is only as good as a distraction, which it acted suitably as. I simply chose solar because it has a high "WTF is going on here?" factor, as well as illusion being by far my favourite school.

At their respective costs, planar bindings, simulacrums are not all too powerful (in the latter case, I spent 1100 EXP for something which died in one round.), which is why they don't come up in game journals all that often. Shapechange on the other hand is powerful certainly, but is not generally a great game breaker on its own.

Hand_of_Vecna
2010-06-05, 11:21 AM
I've read Lycanthropomancer's core wizard vs. splatbook fighter thread too. I agree the gates were unnecessary but he could easily have won by any number of means after creating his nigh impenetrable defense. He could have summoned 3 vrocks to have them float in the air and repeatedly use rain of ruin until one is killed then if any live they can use stunning screech and spores. He could summonpe of a couple ice devils to spam wall of ice and entomb the fighter. He could use those ring gates to spam every type of damage he can muster.

The fighter was boned, he just used gate to show him just how boned he was.