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Heliomance
2010-06-02, 08:26 AM
Is it possible for a Crusader to fill the healbot role in a party? If so, how best to go about it? I'm putting together a playtest/one-shot with pregenned characters, but due to the fact that I know how Clerics work and have seen them in action, I'm not particularly interested in filling a party slot with one. This makes the Crusader the only character wih any sort of healing. The question is, is it enough?

For reference, the other characters are going to be a skillmonkey, a martial battlefield controller, and a slightly tweaked arcane caster I'm probably going to build mailman style, as none of the others do amazing damage.

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 08:28 AM
They can't replace out of battle healing, but that's a much less vital role unless you intend for PCs to enter every fight at full strength.

Heliomance
2010-06-02, 08:31 AM
Wand of Lesser Vigour and UMD it is, then!
EDIT: Or Healing Devotion

Ranos
2010-06-02, 09:00 AM
Or healing belt.

Gnaeus
2010-06-02, 09:16 AM
I don't think they can heal a lot of conditions (stat loss, disease, etc.). In a one-shot playtest that will be either critical or completely meaningless.

Fouredged Sword
2010-06-02, 09:21 AM
depending on the level I have been playing with the idea of an ardent / crusader with the life mantle as a healer. You have spare powerpoints becuse you are useing crusader powers in battle leaving the psionics as an out of battle healbot from "touch of health". Becuse it takes only one point per 2 health you could buy some cheap crystals to store extra PP to, to give you a boost on days the party hits a hard fight.

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 09:25 AM
Ardent is relatively inefficient for healing, as I recall. It's nice for back-up, just keep that in mind. I only made full use of that the time I was a Psion//Wilder.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 09:42 AM
If you're going with psionic healing at all, a great option is the Sangehirn PrC. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c) Now you can manifest personal powers like Body Adjustment and Vigor at touch range, resulting in pretty efficient psionic healing. If you want to, you can qualify with a single level of Ardent (or even Egoist/Erudite) thanks to Practiced Manifester.

(Of those three, only Ardent has Heal as a class skill however.)

Erudite is probably one of the better options for this PrC because then you aren't restricted to the Sangehirn list when selecting powers known (or rather, you are, but you can learn other powers normally) - but beware of the Erudite's multiclass restriction, which may apply to PrCs depending on your DM.

Magikeeper
2010-06-02, 09:53 AM
They can't replace out of battle healing, but that's a much less vital role unless you intend for PCs to enter every fight at full strength.

? Out of combat healing is the main reason to have healing. Also, whether or not Crusaders can fill that roll depends on how the Martial Spirit stance works. If you let players declare whoever as their enemy it is effectively infinite healing.

In the game I'm playing in we have an undead, so the crusaders punch him with non-lethal damage to heal everyone in the party. Or rather, we are all using black sand for eternal healing anyway... but martial spirit is when we need really fast bewtween combat healing.

Healing conditions, however, could be an issue depending on group level.

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 09:59 AM
? Out of combat healing is the main reason to have healing. Also, whether or not Crusaders can fill that roll depending on how the Martial Spirit stance works. If you let players declare whoever as their enemy it is effectively infinite healing.

Keeping someone from dying mid-fight is the main reason to have healing. If you don't do dungeon crawl adventures, generally giving the PCs downtime to heal up naturally works well for a number of things (including crafting, running their base, doing sidequests one-on-one). Nothing says "oh god that was a rough fight with the BBEG" if you're recuperating for two months (which you can narratively skip or indulge in as you please).

Ailurus
2010-06-02, 10:03 AM
? Out of combat healing is the main reason to have healing. Also, whether or not Crusaders can fill that roll depends on how the Martial Spirit stance works. If you let players declare whoever as their enemy it is effectively infinite healing.

In the game I'm playing in we have an undead, so the crusaders punch him with non-lethal damage to heal everyone in the party. Or rather, we are all using black sand for eternal healing anyway... but martial spirit is when we need really fast bewtween combat healing.

Healing conditions, however, could be an issue depending on group level.

Can't remember about the stance, but I know the healing maneuvers explicitly state that the thing you hit needs to be a threat - so swatting peasants, walls, or dealing non-lethal damage to allies shouldn't trigger it, in my opinion.

Stat damage and other effects won't be fixable by a crusader until you can get strike of righteous vitality at very high levels, regardless. So even if the DM allows punching people to trigger the heal, you won't be able to fix anything besides HP damage very reliably.

Magikeeper
2010-06-02, 10:30 AM
Can't remember about the stance, but I know the healing maneuvers explicitly state that the thing you hit needs to be a threat - so swatting peasants, walls, or dealing non-lethal damage to allies shouldn't trigger it, in my opinion.

Huh. Good to know. So the undead spellcaster should grab a weapon and start stabbing party members during the healing proccess. He totally can't do more damage then the TWF crusaders can heal. That would be a strange ritual to watch.. like some kind of war dance...

Edit: Wait, I think only the strikes say that. I like the war dance idea anyway!

------------------
On the main reason to have healing: Hmm... I'd say that is a reason to have someone capable of a little healing, yes. As for resting, not all campaigns have that much down time. The one I play in does (although when we do fight it generally involves multiple combats where taking 70+ damage in one round at level 7 was very possible.. I think the DM expected us to flee though...), but the one I DM does not. So I guess it depends. If you can rest for weeks after every battle, go for it?

Draz74
2010-06-02, 10:33 AM
Is it possible for a Crusader to fill the healbot role in a party? If so, how best to go about it? I'm putting together a playtest/one-shot with pregenned characters, but due to the fact that I know how Clerics work and have seen them in action, I'm not particularly interested in filling a party slot with one. This makes the Crusader the only character wih any sort of healing. The question is, is it enough?

I'm with Ailurus -- the Crusader might do fine with HP healing, especially with a Wand of Lesser Vigor to back him up. But he can't really replace the Cleric in terms of healing ability damage, blindness, curses ...


Or And healing belt.

FTFY.


depending on the level I have been playing with the idea of an ardent / crusader with the life mantle as a healer. You have spare powerpoints becuse you are useing crusader powers in battle leaving the psionics as an out of battle healbot from "touch of health". Becuse it takes only one point per 2 health you could buy some cheap crystals to store extra PP to, to give you a boost on days the party hits a hard fight.

Two hit points per power point is TERRIBLE efficiency. There are at least 4 more efficient ways to heal hit points with Psionics. With only a dip in Ardent, Touch of Health's daily pool of healing ability will be truly unnoticeable.


Ardent is relatively inefficient for healing, as I recall. It's nice for back-up, just keep that in mind. I only made full use of that the time I was a Psion//Wilder.

Ardent can be a mostly competent healer, but it takes some work. And you shouldn't even take Touch of Health. Ever. My favorite low-level combo is Vigor + Shape Soulmeld (Lifebond Vestments). But, although that's a pretty efficient use of Power Points and can be done from level 1, it has its own limitations, and is pretty much only practical for out-of-combat healing.


If you're going with psionic healing at all, a great option is the Sangehirn PrC. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c) Now you can manifest personal powers like Body Adjustment and Vigor at touch range, resulting in pretty efficient psionic healing. If you want to, you can qualify with a single level of Ardent (or even Egoist/Erudite) thanks to Practiced Manifester.

(Of those three, only Ardent has Heal as a class skill however.)

Egoist does too. Heal is one of his discipline-based bonus class skills. Yeah, a carefully-built Sangehirn is probably the best option for a dedicated psionic healer.

Sadly, although I love psionic healers, there's still a few little things they can't ever do as well as a Cleric. Align Weapon, for example, is a terribly crucial spell against certain monsters, and has no psionic equivalent AFAIK.


Can't remember about the stance, but I know the healing maneuvers explicitly state that the thing you hit needs to be a threat - so swatting peasants, walls, or dealing non-lethal damage to allies shouldn't trigger it, in my opinion.

Yeah, they forgot to include that line in the stance. :smallannoyed: Any sane DM will assume it, though.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 10:55 AM
Egoist does too. Heal is one of his discipline-based bonus class skills.

So it does! I forgot that the disciplines have unique class skills. Good catch :smallsmile:


Sadly, although I love psionic healers, there's still a few little things they can't ever do as well as a Cleric. Align Weapon, for example, is a terribly crucial spell against certain monsters, and has no psionic equivalent AFAIK.

Well, there is Stygian Weapon... but I agree, there isn't quite enough on that front.


Can't remember about the stance, but I know the healing maneuvers explicitly state that the thing you hit needs to be a threat - so swatting peasants, walls, or dealing non-lethal damage to allies shouldn't trigger it, in my opinion.

With proper use of Intimidate, you can make anything a threat. (http://shawntionary.com/chainmailbikini/?p=69) :smalltongue:

Escheton
2010-06-02, 11:19 AM
low lvl, pure crusader does the healing hp trick.

Starting at higher lvl you are better off with a jade phoenix mage with warblade entry with a martial feat: devoted
Getting your highest lvl healing strike every other round is nice.
Ruby knight vindicator works extremely well here seeing you can back up the crusader gig with actual cleric healing. (stat healing, rezzes)And rightious might and such.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 11:54 AM
Addition to the Sangehirn discussion - the primary benefit of the PrC is at level 3 (Healing Touch) so would-be psionic healers can feel free to drop out after that point. You can then cherry pick the Sangehirn powers you want to healbot with (HT will apply to them) and mix in a greater variety of utility/offensive powers.

The primary advantage to staying in Sangehirn is that HT will last longer - but 3 rounds should be plenty of time to regain your focus anyway.

Draz74
2010-06-02, 12:24 PM
Well, there is Stygian Weapon... but I agree, there isn't quite enough on that front.

Won't save your party from a TPK at the hands of a CR9 Slaad with DR 10/Lawful. Which is something I've seen happen. :smallfrown:


Addition to the Sangehirn discussion - the primary benefit of the PrC is at level 3 (Healing Touch) so would-be psionic healers can feel free to drop out after that point. You can then cherry pick the Sangehirn powers you want to healbot with (HT will apply to them) and mix in a greater variety of utility/offensive powers.

The primary advantage to staying in Sangehirn is that HT will last longer - but 3 rounds should be plenty of time to regain your focus anyway.

Well, there are two other reasons to stay in Sangehirn past Level 3:

Fast Healing 1 at Level 5. It's not super-powerful, but it is really convenient to have. "Graduating" from having to use the Wand of Lesser Vigor on yourself between combats, as it were.
Cherry-picking healing powers (from the Sangehirn's power list) without having access to them normally. Egoists have access to most of the good powers anyway, but Ardents (and any other classes who manage to enter the PrC in spite of the Heal skill requirement) might easily take an extra 2 levels of Sangehirn in order to pick up Psionic Revivify and Psionic Restoration once their manifester level is high enough. (Using this, you could actually manage to play a healer Ardent who never actually takes the crappy Life mantle!)

Runestar
2010-06-02, 05:31 PM
Go necropolitan shadow sun ninja for all the out-of-combat healing you could ever need. :smallamused:

Knaight
2010-06-02, 07:56 PM
What book is the Sangehirn in?

Draz74
2010-06-02, 07:58 PM
What book is the Sangehirn in?

None, it's originally from the online Mind's Eye article that Optimystik linked to.

Pluto
2010-06-02, 08:00 PM
^The Mind's Eye article series (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c)). Frankly, that's the best collection of WotC-published Psionic material outside the EPH.

AstralFire
2010-06-02, 08:03 PM
^The Mind's Eye article series (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c)). Frankly, that's the best collection of WotC-published Psionic material outside the EPH.

Er... WotC published C. Psi, XPH, The Mind's Eye, PsiHB 3.0 and that is it for psionics related material. So. I mean. Just... It's not saying much, since we automatically discount the last entirely and the first mostly... :smallyuk:

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-02, 08:30 PM
Well, there are two other reasons to stay in Sangehirn past Level 3:

Fast Healing 1 at Level 5. It's not super-powerful, but it is really convenient to have. "Graduating" from having to use the Wand of Lesser Vigor on yourself between combats, as it were.
Cherry-picking healing powers (from the Sangehirn's power list) without having access to them normally. Egoists have access to most of the good powers anyway, but Ardents (and any other classes who manage to enter the PrC in spite of the Heal skill requirement) might easily take an extra 2 levels of Sangehirn in order to pick up Psionic Revivify and Psionic Restoration once their manifester level is high enough. (Using this, you could actually manage to play a healer Ardent who never actually takes the crappy Life mantle!)
What you do is you get in the PrC when you qualify, go to level 3, then start cherry-picking the levels that you want to gain the listed powers, when you want them. Say you want psionic restoration, but it's normally not allowed for your class. You get in at level 8 (because who wants to skip out on psychic reformation, am I right?), and you only want two powers for each level. You hit 7 as, say, ardent, take 3 levels in sangehirn for the Healing Touch, then alternate ardent/sangehirn/ardent/sangehirn/ardent/sangehirn and so on until you've topped out the class and gotten all of the powers you want.

That way you're allowed a lot more flexibility than you otherwise would be, what with being allowed to pick from your chosen mantles and all.

Also, use suspend life on an enemy after you've knocked him (her? it?) out. Unconscious creatures count as 'willing' after all. :smallamused:

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 09:47 PM
^The Mind's Eye article series (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c)). Frankly, that's the best collection of WotC-published Psionic material outside the EPH.

Actually, the Eberron books are frequently overlooked, but have some very nice goodies for psionics in them as well. And they're all 3.5 :smallsmile:

e.g. Forced Dream, Psionic Prestidigitation(!), Psionic Glibness, etc.


What you do is you get in the PrC when you qualify, go to level 3, then start cherry-picking the levels that you want to gain the listed powers, when you want them. Say you want psionic restoration, but it's normally not allowed for your class. You get in at level 8 (because who wants to skip out on psychic reformation, am I right?), and you only want two powers for each level. You hit 7 as, say, ardent, take 3 levels in sangehirn for the Healing Touch, then alternate ardent/sangehirn/ardent/sangehirn/ardent/sangehirn and so on until you've topped out the class and gotten all of the powers you want.

I'd rather Pimp My Mantles and line up all the good healy-powers in a given theme. For instance, anything on the Sangehirn's list could fit in the Life Mantle, and the granted power isn't shabby at lower levels. You could also make a case for mantles like Guardian, Fate, Good and Death.

That way, I can jump into another PrC - say, Anarchic Initiate, or Slayer - and continue getting my healbot on with HT.

Faleldir
2010-06-02, 10:33 PM
If your character is allergic to bees, wouldn't a bag of bees count as a legitimate threat to you?

Endarire
2010-06-03, 12:04 AM
A Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator can make an excellent healer, if that's what you want. I've seen a Cleric/Crusader/RKV keep my party alive with Martial Spirit, Crusader's Strike, and Revitalizing Strike. He stopped using cure spells in combat levels ago!

An item that casts cure light wounds or lesser vigor at will is only 1800 gold. This is mostly for noncombat healing. Unless between fight endurance is the point, these are viable and often fun options.

DragoonWraith
2010-06-03, 12:25 AM
If your character is allergic to bees, wouldn't a bag of bees count as a legitimate threat to you?
The lack of epi-pens in your setting might make that a rather unsafe proposition. Anaphylactic shock is a rather ignoble death for an adventurer.

mabriss lethe
2010-06-03, 12:50 AM
A binder with healing devotion can be rather fun. (yes, I know you can bind buer to get unlimited out of combat healing, but this is much more fun.) According to the feat, you may spend a full round action to transfer the power to someone else. Now, that doesn't mean that they immediately get fast healing. It means that *they* can now spend a swift action to activate it, or that it will activate on its own if they drop below 0 hp. There is also no listed cap on the number of Healing devotion charges you can lump into a person. Combine that with having the Vestige Tenebrous bound, and you can load up your team with as much fast healing as you like before you even set out for the day.

Draz74
2010-06-03, 01:16 AM
A Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator can make an excellent healer, if that's what you want. I've seen a Cleric/Crusader/RKV keep my party alive with Martial Spirit, Crusader's Strike, and Revitalizing Strike. He stopped using cure spells in combat levels ago!

Two questions:

Who doesn't stop using Cure spells in combat after, like, Level 3?
What doesn't a Cleric/Crusader/RKV do "excellently"?

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-03, 01:23 AM
What doesn't a Cleric/Crusader/RKV do "excellently"?
[/LIST]I was gonna say archery, but I forgot:

Cleric. :smallsigh:

Optimystik
2010-06-03, 01:24 AM
Snea- oh right, Cleric. Trapf- oh right, cleric. Socia- oh, right...

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-03, 01:26 AM
And can he figure out why children like Cinnamon Toast Cr-

-Oh, right. Cleric.

I have one! Using Truenaming!

Icewraith
2010-06-03, 01:47 AM
Arcane Spellcasting?

Escheton
2010-06-03, 03:19 AM
magic domain and miracle...

Optimystik
2010-06-03, 08:02 AM
Arcane Spellcasting?

Divine Magician (CM)

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-03, 08:40 AM
Keeping someone from dying mid-fight is the main reason to have healing. If you don't do dungeon crawl adventures, generally giving the PCs downtime to heal up naturally works well for a number of things (including crafting, running their base, doing sidequests one-on-one). Nothing says "oh god that was a rough fight with the BBEG" if you're recuperating for two months (which you can narratively skip or indulge in as you please).

I support this. Classic D&D dungeon crawls took place once every few months or more, with mundane acts filling in the gaps between heroic conquests. There has been a trend for campaigns to place time limits on everything the players do, which feels to me as if they are less heroes in a persistent world and more like characters thrust into an arbitrary set of serial challenges. The rules appear to expect downtime and it's a good chance to fill in some narration and allow for character development.

On the subject of the "role of a healer", I will link this guide (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871786/A_Players_Guide_to_Healing_(And,_why_you_will_be_J ust_Fine_without_a_Cleric_to_heal)), yet again.

I run a fairly brutal game and the party has never had a dedicated healer. They seem to get by quite well.

Person_Man
2010-06-03, 10:26 AM
Upvote one Irreverent Fool's post and link. Although you arguably need/want someone to play a healbot (especially at low levels) it's not necessary if you allow PCs to withdraw and rest after combat. And if you're willing to invest gp in some (surprisingly efficient) healing magic items, it becomes completely unnecessary.

Stompy
2010-06-03, 10:37 AM
What doesn't a Cleric/Crusader/RKV do "excellently"?


I wouldn't accuse a RKV of being humble. :smalltongue: