3.5 Can you sneak attack with spells ?

[Grifthin]

Like if you play arcane trickster ? SNEAK ATTACK RAY OF FROST! Or not ?

[Heliomance]

If it has an attack roll, you can sneak attack with it.

[The Glyphstone]

As explained in Complete Arcane, under Weaponlike Spells I think.

[AstralFire]

"I sneak attack you with my GLOWING EYES OF PELOREAN JUSTICE, SCUMBAG."

[Optimystik]

They can also critical hit*, though only on a natural 20.

*standard exceptions apply

[unre9istered]

Considering Weapon Focus: Ray is a valid feat choice, would Improved Critical: Ray be acceptable? Would it be worth it for a ray based character who has the BAB to take it?

[deuxhero]

Note that the type of damage of your sneak attack die is the same as the spell (except with ability damage, I forget what you get for your sneak attack die then)

[Hendel]

They can also critical hit*, though only on a natural 20.

*standard exceptions apply

True, but as mentioned you could take Improved Critical and then score a potential critical hit on a 19-20. Nice thing to get with a maximized, empowered disintegrate. Add some sneak attack to that and you have a nice combination.

[Curmudgeon]

Considering Weapon Focus: Ray is a valid feat choice, would Improved Critical: Ray be acceptable? From Complete Arcane on page 72:
Improved Critical: Choose one category of weaponlike spells (ranged spells or touch spells). When you use a spell of the selected category, its threat range is doubled,

[AstralFire]

Considering Weapon Focus: Ray is a valid feat choice, would Improved Critical: Ray be acceptable? Would it be worth it for a ray based character who has the BAB to take it?

Acceptable, yes. Worth it, no.

[Fax Celestis]

Note that the type of damage of your sneak attack die is the same as the spell (except with ability damage, I forget what you get for your sneak attack die then)

Negative energy.

[Person_Man]

As others have already correctly pointed out, yes you can Sneak Attack with anything that has an attack roll. However:

In a volley attack (such as Scorching Ray or Manyshot) the bonus Sneak Attack damage only applies to the first attack.
Thus when using spells to deliver Sneak Attack, you will deal far less damage then a Full Attack action.
You can get Touch Attacks via dozens of other methods, such as Master Thrower, Pyrokineticist, tons of weapon spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8312306) or wands, psionics, without sacrificing a Full Attack.
All other Sneak Attack restrictions are still in force (30 ft, immunities, denied Dex, etc).


Thus while you can be ranged spell Sneak Attacker, it's usually not optimal to do so.

[Mongoose87]

So, if you have a necropolitan comrade and you sneak attack him with Inflict Minor wounds, he heals all of that damage?

[Yuki Akuma]

So, if you have a necropolitan comrade and you sneak attack him with Inflict Minor wounds, he heals all of that damage?

No. He'd heal 1 HP and take xd6 negative energy damage.

[Person_Man]

So, if you have a necropolitan comrade and you sneak attack him with Inflict Minor wounds, he heals all of that damage?

No, because Necropolitans are undead, and immune to Precision damage.

[Defiant]

So let's just make it clear:

You can use targeted spells in order to cause sneak attack damage, yes?

So it's perfectly reasonable to have some sort of rogue/caster who doesn't carry weapons, and just uses spells for damage+sneak attack damage. I.e. when you start running out of spells, switch to 0-level spells, still do sneak attack damage.

[Amphetryon]

So let's just make it clear:

You can use targeted spells in order to cause sneak attack damage, yes?

So it's perfectly reasonable to have some sort of rogue/warlock who doesn't carry weapons, and just uses spells for damage+sneak attack damage. I.e. never run out of eldritch blasts, do sneak attack damage.

FTFY. :smallwink:

[lsfreak]

So let's just make it clear:

You can use targeted spells in order to cause sneak attack damage, yes?

So it's perfectly reasonable to have some sort of rogue/caster who doesn't carry weapons, and just uses spells for damage+sneak attack damage. I.e. when you start running out of spells, switch to 0-level spells, still do sneak attack damage.

Reasonable, not really*. Possible, yes. For the reasons Person_Man laid out, you'd be much better doing rogue. Or even going rogue/wizard, and simply using spells to buff/debuff; weapons are always going to do more damage than equivalent spells (excepting a mailman build).
Assuming reasonable means being able to pull their weight in an optimized group

Question about Sneak Attack and Split Ray: Does it act more like Scorching Ray, where you only get sneak attack once, or more like Greater Manyshot/Split enhancement, where multiple rolls = multiple sneak attack?

[Myatar_Panwar]

As others have already correctly pointed out, yes you can Sneak Attack with anything that has an attack roll. However:

In a volley attack (such as Scorching Ray or Manyshot) the bonus Sneak Attack damage only applies to the first attack.
Thus when using spells to deliver Sneak Attack, you will deal far less damage then a Full Attack action.




D:

I've been doing this so wrong...

[Lord Vukodlak]

No, because Necropolitans are undead, and immune to Precision damage.

More importantly its not damage[against undead] so sneak attack does nothing. Their are ways to sneak attack undead and we don't want rogues so start sneak attacking with cure light wounds.

[Greenish]

More importantly its not damage to sneak attack does nothing. Their are ways to sneak attack undead and we don't want rogues so start sneak attacking with cure light wounds.Why not? .....

[Yuki Akuma]

No, because Necropolitans are undead, and immune to Precision damage.

I was assuming the Rogue/Cleric was smart enough to have that spell that lets him sneak attack undead.



FTFY. :smallwink:

That... is the absolute worst idea I've ever heard.

Trade out your eldrich blast progression for one extra d6 of damage that only gets applied some of the time to an attack you only get one of per round? No thanks.

Unless you're gestalt, in which case it's okay, but it's still not as good as... a full sneak attack routine.

[Defiant]

Reasonable, not really*. Possible, yes. For the reasons Person_Man laid out, you'd be much better doing rogue. Or even going rogue/wizard, and simply using spells to buff/debuff; weapons are always going to do more damage than equivalent spells (excepting a mailman build).
Assuming reasonable means being able to pull their weight in an optimized group

Question about Sneak Attack and Split Ray: Does it act more like Scorching Ray, where you only get sneak attack once, or more like Greater Manyshot/Split enhancement, where multiple rolls = multiple sneak attack?

Wrong! Spells scale in damage by their die, while weapons scale only by static +1 bonuses, which usually cost quite a bit to acquire.

What I'm considering here is someone who doesn't carry a weapon. They use high-damage spells, which are also sneak attacks. Of course, should they run out of those high-damage spells, then they'll switch to lower-than-weapons damage 0-level spells, but it's still a nice idea for not needing a weapon at all. (really, what's my 1d8+Xd6 crossbow going to differ from my 1d3+Xd6 ray of frost, for high values of X?)

And no, not necessarily for an optimized group. If I wanted to make a powerful character to stack up with an optimized group, I'd just make some sort of full wizard and forget about character roles or ideas.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Why not? .....

Because a wand of cure minor wounds shouldn't heal an extra 10d6 damage when used on a party member by the rogue.

[Thespianus]

As others have already correctly pointed out, yes you can Sneak Attack with anything that has an attack roll. However:

Thus when using spells to deliver Sneak Attack, you will deal far less damage then a Full Attack action.

If you're not worried about being up close and personal when delivering your touch spells, there's the Battle Touch feat from Monte Cook's Complete Book of Eldritch Might: It allows you to make full attacks with your touch spell attacks (only against a single target, however). So, with a BAB of 16, you can make 4 Touch Attacks in a round, applying Sneak Attack damage on each attack.

Maximized Combust from a flanking position with Hunter's Eye = Win ! ;)

[AstralFire]

Defiant: You're missing power attack, pounce, TWF, iterative attacks, that fact that +x is one of the worst enchantments for your money even without GMW shenanigans...

[Greenish]

Wrong! Spells scale in damage by their die, while weapons scale only by static +1 bonuses, which usually cost quite a bit to acquire.Weapons also scale with more attacks per round (which is important for precision damage), and obviously PA (which is important for the others).

What I'm considering here is someone who doesn't carry a weapon. They use high-damage spells, which are also sneak attacks. Of course, should they run out of those high-damage spells, then they'll switch to lower-than-weapons damage 0-level spells, but it's still a nice idea for not needing a weapon at all. (really, what's my 1d8+Xd6 crossbow going to differ from my 1d3+Xd6 ray of frost, for high values of X?)Your crossbow can, with right feats/enhancements, shoot more than once per round for the SA damage. But there's a handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240.0) on what you want to do.

And no, not necessarily for an optimized group. If I wanted to make a powerful character to stack up with an optimized group, I'd just make some sort of full wizard and forget about character roles or ideas.Nice stormwind there.

[Edit]:
Because a wand of cure minor wounds shouldn't heal an extra 10d6 damage when used on a party member by the rogue.Ah, I thought you meant that you didn't want rogues Sneak Attacking undead with wands of CLW. Anyway, if you Sneak Attacked a party member with CLW, he'd heal for 1d8+1 and take Xd6 positive energy SA damage, as has been pointed out.

[Defiant]

We're talking about a sneak-attacker here. Chances are that Power Attack et al will not be that feasible.

Good point on the iterative attacks, I didn't think of that. But I think in the end it would still be fine. Yd6 damage spell + Xd6 sneak attack is probably going to win out against 2Xd6 sneak attack (depends a lot on the build). But it's a fair point.

Don't know what Stormwind means, but what I meant to say is that I don't want this build to be compared too critically against a well-optimized group. Ah, what the heck, do it anyways. Let's see how it compares.

[Eldariel]

As others have already correctly pointed out, yes you can Sneak Attack with anything that has an attack roll. However:

In a volley attack (such as Scorching Ray or Manyshot) the bonus Sneak Attack damage only applies to the first attack.
Thus when using spells to deliver Sneak Attack, you will deal far less damage then a Full Attack action.
You can get Touch Attacks via dozens of other methods, such as Master Thrower, Pyrokineticist, tons of weapon spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8312306) or wands, psionics, without sacrificing a Full Attack.
All other Sneak Attack restrictions are still in force (30 ft, immunities, denied Dex, etc).


Thus while you can be ranged spell Sneak Attacker, it's usually not optimal to do so.

This isn't...entirely accurate. While it's true when you make no effort for it, remember that spell such as Guided Shot, Sniper's Shot, Hunter's Eye and company pretty much negate the drawbacks (and are persistable even without trickery) and you can metamagically ramp the spell damage high enough to negate the inability to full attack (and Quicken something for good measure and force saves; just find good seed spells). Now, you won't apply your Sneak Attack as often and you won't rely on it for damage but ~22d6 isn't a trivial addition to most damage outputs (~77).

[Greenish]

We're talking about a sneak-attacker here. Chances are that Power Attack et al will not be that feasible.PA was there to demonstrate how weapon damage scales with many different things, and spells can only catch up with heavy metamagic use/abuse.

Good point on the iterative attacks, I didn't think of that. But I think in the end it would still be fine. Yd6 damage spell + Xd6 sneak attack is probably going to win out against 2Xd6 sneak attack (depends a lot on the build). But it's a fair point.It's not "2Xd6", it's "ZXd6" where Z is the number of attacks you get in a round (and can go significantly higher than 2 with no real optimization. Now, let's say you have a build focused on dealing damage with SA. At level 20, you'll sport, say, 12d6 SA. A caster can get that once a round with a spell. The mean lil' kobold in melee will do it 8 times a round. (Attack sequence: +19/+17/+17/+14/+12/+9/+7/+4.)

[Edit]: Forgot Craven, silly me. That'll be +20 damage with each SA.

[AstralFire]

Caster can get it twice in a round with Quicken. Of course, there are almost certainly better uses of the spell slots.

[lsfreak]

Good point on the iterative attacks, I didn't think of that. But I think in the end it would still be fine. Yd6 damage spell + Xd6 sneak attack is probably going to win out against 2Xd6 sneak attack (depends a lot on the build). But it's a fair point.

A 20th-level unseen-seer build should be doing around 7 attacks a round, against touch AC, at a minimum of 10d6+level+dex per attack (probably a lot more, thanks to Hunter's Eye). Assuming a Dex of 24(14 starting, +6 item, +4 book), that's an average of 62 damage per hit, ignoring any and all weapon enhancements. That means a single attack averages the equivalent of 17.5d6 of damage, and you have seven of them.

EDIT: Scratch the Dex to damage, I don't know if it's worth the feats to get Shadow Blade on such a build. It's still almost 16d6 a hit, seven hits likely.

[Fax Celestis]

Question about Sneak Attack and Split Ray: Does it act more like Scorching Ray, where you only get sneak attack once, or more like Greater Manyshot/Split enhancement, where multiple rolls = multiple sneak attack?

One sneak attack per attack roll. This is why Manyshot only allows SA once, but Greater Manyshot allows multiple instances.

[AstralFire]

One sneak attack per attack roll. This is why Manyshot only allows SA once, but Greater Manyshot allows multiple instances.

Scorching Ray is multiple attack rolls.

[Fax Celestis]

Scorching ray is explicitly listed as a "volley" type by the weaponlike spells description, even though it shouldn't be. RAW, scorching ray gets one sneak attack per burst. RAMS, scorching ray gets one sneak attack per attack roll, like every other effect in the game.

[AstralFire]

I agree on RAMS (though I personally rule that it and Meteor Swarm can be fired as one for purposes of overcoming Fire Resist), just pointing out the contradiction.

[Myou]

This isn't...entirely accurate. While it's true when you make no effort for it, remember that spell such as Guided Shot, Sniper's Shot, Hunter's Eye and company pretty much negate the drawbacks (and are persistable even without trickery) and you can metamagically ramp the spell damage high enough to negate the inability to full attack (and Quicken something for good measure and force saves; just find good seed spells). Now, you won't apply your Sneak Attack as often and you won't rely on it for damage but ~22d6 isn't a trivial addition to most damage outputs (~77).

I thought you applied precision damage to each attack roll? So manyshot gets it once, but greater manyshot geats it with each shot.
And so each scorching ray you fire gets it.

I was sure that was in the rules compendion of something.

Edit: Oh, mised that there was a page 2.


Scorching ray is explicitly listed as a "volley" type by the weaponlike spells description, even though it shouldn't be. RAW, scorching ray gets one sneak attack per burst. RAMS, scorching ray gets one sneak attack per attack roll, like every other effect in the game.

Oh, where is that info from?

[Fax Celestis]

I thought it was from the FAQ, but I can't seem to find it. Lemme check Sage Advice.

Here it is. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a)


Spells as Sneak Attacks

Any spell that requires an attack roll and deals damage can be used in a sneak attack. In this case "damage" is normal damage, nonlethal damage, ability damage, or energy drain. You can sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell, but not with a magic missile spell.

Ranged spells are effective as sneak attacks only at ranges of 30 feet or less (just like any other ranged sneak attack).

A successful sneak attack with a weaponlike spell inflicts extra damage according to the attacker's sneak attack ability, and the extra damage dealt is the same type as the spell deals. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with a Melf's acid arrow spell inflicts 2d4 points of acid damage, plus an extra 5d6 points of acid damage from the sneak attack (note that continuing damage from this spell is not part of the sneak attack). Spells that inflict energy drains or ability damage deal extra negative energy damage in a sneak attack, not extra negative levels or ability damage. For example, a 10th-level rogue who makes a successful sneak attack with an enervation spell deals 1d4 negative levels plus an extra 5d6 points of negative energy damage.

If the sneak attack with a weaponlike spell results in a critical hit, the damage from the spell is doubled but the extra sneak attack damage is not doubled (as with any sneak attack).

With spell effects that allow you to make multiple attack rolls, such as the energy orb spells or the Split Ray feat from Tome and Blood, you must treat the effect like a volley -- only the first attack can be a sneak attack.

[Myou]

I thought it was from the FAQ, but I can't seem to find it. Lemme check Sage Advice.

Here it is. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a)

Is the sage actually considered RAW? :smallconfused:
I thought it was thought of more as suggestions.

[AstralFire]

The Sage generally hews pretty close to RAW, but they're not really any more reliable than any experienced DM.

It's exemplary of typical Sage advice, too. Sneak attacks are one of the weaker elements of melee combat, weaponlike damage spells are one of the weaker elements of magic, they clearly must be limited in their combination. :smallamused:

[Person_Man]

This isn't...entirely accurate. While it's true when you make no effort for it, remember that spell such as Guided Shot, Sniper's Shot, Hunter's Eye and company pretty much negate the drawbacks (and are persistable even without trickery) and you can metamagically ramp the spell damage high enough to negate the inability to full attack (and Quicken something for good measure and force saves; just find good seed spells). Now, you won't apply your Sneak Attack as often and you won't rely on it for damage but ~22d6 isn't a trivial addition to most damage outputs (~77).

As always, it depends on your build goals. I agree that the bonus damage from Sneak Attack is non-trivial, and that for non-optimized gaming groups, it's often the Sneak Attacker who deals the most damage (usually because the meat shield hasn't figured out how to optimize Power Attack). But if your build goal is to deal maximum direct damage, then Sir Chargealot or Tome of Battle or Claws of the Beast or metamagic abuse will all yield much more damage then then the bonuses from Sneak Attack.

If you've decided on a Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/Arcane Trickster build, then using a weapon-like spell (which grants not only touch attacks, but also the ability to make a full attack, and it opens up the use of Staggering Strike) would be highly preferable to using a ray spell. You'd basically be giving up 20ish feet of range in exchange for much higher damage.

Honestly though, there's no reason you couldn't use either or both, depending on your needs and your current situation. It doesn't really take that much additional resources to memorize Thunderlance and Orb of Whatever. I just wouldn't waste feats on things like Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus, etc.

[Myou]

The Sage generally hews pretty close to RAW, but they're not really any more reliable than any experienced DM.

It's exemplary of typical Sage advice, too. Sneak attacks are one of the weaker elements of melee combat, weaponlike damage spells are one of the weaker elements of magic, they clearly must be limited in their combination. :smallamused:

I guess I'll continue to allow sneak attack scorching rays. :smalltongue:

[Amphetryon]

Is the sage actually considered RAW? :smallconfused:
I thought it was thought of more as suggestions.
Sage isn't RAW, but is closer to RAW than 'some random dude on the internet' as far as WotC is concerned. That said, I seem to recall times when the Sage had to retract commentary and/or answered multiple iterations of the same question differently. So, yeah. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Person_Man]

Oh, where is that info from?

All About Sneak Attack (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a), by Skip Williams. IIRC, it's also covered in the Rules Compendium.

[Curmudgeon]

If you want to be a sneak attack blaster, Warlock is a poor choice for the reasons Yuki_Akuma pointed out. You need a way to blast reliably, add lots of sneak attack damage, and not run out of spells.

You can stack Cleric and Rogue levels for sneak attack damage (and undead turning) with Sacred Outlaw, a multiclass feat in Dragon # 357. Add Craven (Champions of Ruin) for +1 point/character level extra sneak damage and you're in decent shape as a Rogue 3/Cleric X. Now you just need something like a blasty reserve feat for Clerics.

Unfortunately, those options (all from Complete Mage) are underwhelming. All of them require a standard action, for instance.

Fiery Burst gives you a 5' radius fire blast within 30', with 1d6 damage per highest level Fire spell you have. Fire Storm (Clr 8) is probably the highest option here, for 8d6 fire damage. You'll get that at level 18 (Rogue 3/Cleric 15). That's only so-so, since Fire is the most often resisted element, and you can't use Energy Substitution metamagic to modify a reserve feat the way you could modify a spell.
The Cold equivalent, Winter's Blast, is only 1d4 Cold damage/reserved Cold spell level, and it's only a 15' cone. But thanks to Frostburn there are spells all the way up to level 9 (Fimbulwinter), so it's a bit more scalable (though still weak).
The Force option, Invisible Needle, is only 1d4/reserved Force spell level, and requires a regular (not touch) ranged attack roll.
Storm Bolt is the Electricity option, with 1d6/reserved Electricity spell level, but limited to a 20' line.
Acidic Splatter has 1d6/reserved Acid spell level, but the top Acid spell for Clerics is only 4th level.
There's no equivalent Sonic reserve feat; Clap Of Thunder is touch range only.

If you can get to Cleric level 13 and use Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) there's a much superior option. Available only to Clerics with the Initiate of Mystra feat is an Abjuration spell called Holy Star (Player's Guide to Faerûn, page 104). This spell has 3 different options, selectable with a free action. You'll be able to keep your AC up with a +10 circumstance bonus using the Protection property, and on your turn be able to make a full attack with the Fire Bolt property: ranged touch attacks within 90', dealing 1d6/2 caster levels (max 10d6). As a persisted spell effect you can use Energy Substitution to pick something better than Fire, like Acid or Sonic. And best of all, Holy Star's Fire Bolt works as a ranged touch attack up to 90', so you can full attack with it!

With Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) applied to Holy Star with some CL boosters (like Practiced Spellcaster for +3, maybe Purification domain for another +1 to Abjuration spells, +1 from an Orange Ioun Stone, and +4 from an Ankh of Ascension if you can sacrifice another 7th level spell) you should be able to hit (close to) the 10d6 maximum blast damage around the time you can cast the spell (Rogue 3/Cleric 13).

That means you've got a never-expiring blast attack that you can use whenever you want. It's like a Warlock's eldritch blast, except so much better:

50% longer range
not subject to spell resistance
no ASF chance
you can full attack with it (whereas eldritch blast uses a standard action), so cast Divine Power and let those full attack blasts rip!
After your full attack, switch back from Fire Bolt to Protection again; it's a free action to switch.

As a build at level 16+ this is an interesting option. At any lower level it's going to be an exercise in frustration. :smallannoyed:

[Yuki Akuma]

Note: Heightened spells count for reserve feats, if you're a prepared caster. So a cleric can totally get 9th level Acid spells.

[Grifthin]

Thanks for all the replys. We will be starting a game soon that's just core. The Rogue expressed a interest in going wizard/rogue/arcane trickster. I just wanted to check if he could stack his spells like that.

How do you get sneak attack damage more than once a encounter against enemies that arn't flat footed ?

[Curmudgeon]

Note: Heightened spells count for reserve feats, if you're a prepared caster. So a cleric can totally get 9th level Acid spells.
Yeah, that was actually what I was thinking as the bridge before you could get Holy Star. It's still limited to 1 attack/round (standard action). Then you retrain Acid Splatter (which is a decent energy choice) for Energy Substitution (acid) and you'll do the same type of damage, just much better.

How do you get sneak attack damage more than once a encounter against enemies that arn't flat footed ?Cast Greater Invisibility, and that'll deny most opponents their DEX bonus to AC. Flat-footed isn't required for sneak attack.

[Greenish]

How do you get sneak attack damage more than once a encounter against enemies that arn't flat footed ?Be invisible, or use Grease.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Thanks for all the replys. We will be starting a game soon that's just core. The Rogue expressed a interest in going wizard/rogue/arcane trickster. I just wanted to check if he could stack his spells like that.

How do you get sneak attack damage more than once a encounter against enemies that arn't flat footed ?

I'm playing an arcane trickster currently, and greater invisibility has been a great asset. So basically, you make them flatfooted. :P

But of course there is always flanking with touch spells/spellstoring weapons.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm playing an arcane trickster currently, and greater invisibility has been a great asset. So basically, you make them flatfooted.
I do wish people would stop mixing up these two conditions. Being visually undetectable denies an opponent their DEX bonus to AC, and gives you +2 to attack them. It doesn't make them flat-footed, which would also keep them from being able to make attacks of opportunity against anyone.

[Rothen]

There's also a Distract Assailant, a low-level spell that can be cast as a swift action. Will Save, on a failed save, the target is flat-footed (IIRC, it could also just be no DEX to AC) until the start of his next turn.

[Emmerask]

EDIT: Scratch the Dex to damage, I don't know if it's worth the feats to get Shadow Blade on such a build. It's still almost 16d6 a hit, seven hits likely.

Reading the shadow blade feat would only allow it if you attack with a shadow hand or setting sun weapon anyway (and spells are not on this list :smallwink:)

[Fax Celestis]

How do you get sneak attack damage more than once a encounter against enemies that arn't flat footed ?

Invisibility. Blinding. Stunning. Grappling (someone else). Wracking touch.

[Emmerask]

How do you get sneak attack damage more than once a encounter against enemies that arn't flat footed ?

As an arcane trickster you also get impromptu sneak attack (if my memory serves me right) making your next attack a sneak attack, though only 1 to 3 times / day depending on level.

[Curmudgeon]

A 20th-level unseen-seer build should be doing around 7 attacks a round, against touch AC ...

EDIT: Scratch the Dex to damage, I don't know if it's worth the feats to get Shadow Blade on such a build. It's still almost 16d6 a hit, seven hits likely. Touch range means you'll have to close with enemies, wasting time and reducing your attacks from 7 to 1. Plus there's the risk of being up close and squishy with your d4 HD.

My blasty Cleric/Rogue at level 20 will crank out at least 20d6+20 per ranged touch attack (more with boosters like a Rogue's Vest, of course), with 4 attacks from Divine Power. Not much time needs to be wasted closing to attack, because anything within 30' is sneak-able; if necessary that can be done as a swift action every round through Travel Devotion. Sneak attack conditions can be met through a useful combination of Deeper Darkness (which lasts for weeks on an object, such as a dagger you draw while moving) and Ebon Eyes (which lasts at least 200 minutes per casting of that level 1 spell); this combo is more likely to keep working at higher levels than Greater Invisibility. Undead take full sneak damage thanks to Grave Strike.

As an arcane trickster you also get impromptu sneak attack (if my memory serves me right) making your next attack a sneak attack, though only 1 to 3 times / day depending on level.
It's limited to a maximum of 2 attacks per day, and that takes 7 levels of Arcane Trickster. Not really that much of a sneak attack booster for even a single combat.

[lsfreak]

On scorching ray:
It's laid out in Complete Arcane, thus making it RAW and not merely a Sage ruling.


Some weaponlike spells can strike multiple times in the same round. When the caster gets a bonus on damage with such spells (including sneak attack damage), the extra damage applies only to the first attack, whether that attack hits or not. [example using scorching ray]
Hence why I was asking about a Split Ray - does that count as multiple strikes from the same spell (Manyshot-esque), or not (Greater Manyshot-esque)?

EDIT:

Touch range means you'll have to close with enemies, wasting time and reducing your attacks from 7 to 1. Plus there's the risk of being up close and squishy with your d4 HD.
I was assuming a rogue build enhanced by unseen seer (thus some method of swift-action teleporting can be assumed, though it is screwed over by anticipate teleport), with persisted wraithstrike and hunter's eye. I suppose I didn't take into account having a d4 versus d6, though.

[Runestar]

According to rules compendium, you apply precision damage only once if you can make multiple attacks as party of a standard action (say via manyshot or scorching ray). If you make multiple attacks as part of a full-round (say a full-attack), then precision damage applies to them all. :smallsmile:

So it seems more of a game-balance issue.

[lsfreak]

According to rules compendium, you apply precision damage only once if you can make multiple attacks as party of a standard action (say via manyshot or scorching ray). If you make multiple attacks as part of a full-round (say a full-attack), then precision damage applies to them all. :smallsmile:

So it seems more of a game-balance issue.

The problem is that Rules Compendium changed a lot of things, even though it wasn't really supposed to. Pre-Rules Compendium, there was no such ruling. The closest thing to a rule before that was multiple attack rolls = multiple sneak attacks, unless it was a spell (I think, I could very well be wrong). It also means that a wizard using Split Seeking Ray gets no sneak attack, while a sorcerer using Split Seeking Ray would. That makes zero sense.

[AstralFire]

That's really more 'consistency' than it is 'balance.'


The problem is that Rules Compendium changed a lot of things, even though it wasn't really supposed to. Pre-Rules Compendium, there was no such ruling. The closest thing to a rule before that was multiple attack rolls = multiple sneak attacks, unless it was a spell (I think, I could very well be wrong). It also means that a wizard using Split Seeking Ray gets no sneak attack, while a sorcerer using Split Seeking Ray would. That makes zero sense.

Though, hah! Something a Sorcerer does better than a Wizard. Need more of those.

[Gnosko]

How do you get sneak attack damage more than once a encounter against enemies that arn't flat footed ?

Flanking also grants sneek attack unless your opponent has Improved uncanny dodge.

[Curmudgeon]

I was assuming a rogue build enhanced by unseen seer (thus some method of swift-action teleporting can be assumed, though it is screwed over by anticipate teleport), with persisted wraithstrike and hunter's eye. I suppose I didn't take into account having a d4 versus d6, though.
Or d8, for a (mostly) Cleric build (17 out of 20 levels). :smallbiggrin:

How would you get 7 attacks with medium BAB and arcane spellcasting, anyway? Do you plan to pick up Arcane Disciple for a domain with Divine Power, as well as 3 TWF feats? Add Extend Spell and Persistent Spell and the well's looking kinda dry. :smallannoyed:

[lsfreak]

Or d8, for a (mostly) Cleric build (17 out of 20 levels). :smallbiggrin:

How would you get 7 attacks with medium BAB and arcane spellcasting, anyway? Do you plan to pick up Arcane Disciple for a domain with Divine Power, as well as 3 TWF feats? Add Extend Spell and Persistent Spell and the well's looking kinda dry. :smallannoyed:

Perhaps I forget TWF as a single feat is a houserule :smallredface: Rogue1/Wizard4/Unseen Seer10/Arcane Trickster5 ends up with a BAB of 11, but yea, fitting in 3 TWF feats will be a bit rough. Even then, though, he'll get 4 attacks (each the rough equivalent of 16d6 damage, or more), which still shows the concept of a no-weapon wizard sneak attacker is subpar. Your cleric build looks really interesting, though :smallsmile:

[Curmudgeon]

Your cleric build looks really interesting, though :smallsmile:
It just barely picks up 9th level spells at level 20, but it accomplishes that with full Rogue sneak attack capability. The usual rule for heavily front-loaded classes like Cleric is to pick up prestige classes to gain extra capabilities. (You obviously took that approach after your Wizard kernel.) The option of a good multiclassing feat (like Sacred Outlaw) changes things, however.

Of course, I could go straight Cleric with Sacred Outlaw, the same way you can go straight Swashbuckler with Daring Outlaw: acquire 2d6 sneak attack through some other mechanism. But I like the benefits of those Rogue levels, especially evasion and the boost to Reflex saves that makes the ability work. The robe w/ armor bonus + Magic Vestment + Monk's Belt AC solution that's so helpful for Cloistered Clerics works for the non-Cloistered version, too, so you can stay within the light/no armor restriction.

[deuxhero]

No, because Necropolitans are undead, and immune to Precision damage.

What about a TTS?

[Curmudgeon]

What about a TTS?
Adding the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat puts you in the same category as an undead, if the Rogue has some way of sneak attacking undead (Grave Strike, or a Truedeath weapon augment crystal, for instance): the Inflict spell would heal, not damage. Since sneak attack with a weaponlike spell requires that you both make an attack roll and do damage, no sneak attack would be added.

[Fouredged Sword]

A build could be built to cast nothing but acis splash or some other level zero ray. You metamagic it useing thesis and practical metamagic to use fell drain at every posible level. Your attack does (1d3+sneak attack) acid damage+(spell level+1) negative levels. Three feats required. Go dagger spell mage and spellwarp sniper for maximun sneak attack and spell progresion.

A low level fire spell with scorching spell would likely be better, more feats, but then it can hit things immune to fire as well.

[Yuki Akuma]

It cannot however hit things immune to acid.

[Curmudgeon]

It cannot however hit things immune to acid.
Which is a reasonable argument for choosing Energy Affinity instead of Energy Substitution, because you can add Sudden Energy Affinity on top to let you switch energy types once/day. If Acid doesn't work, try Electricity instead. :smallsmile:

[Person_Man]

Thanks for all the replys. We will be starting a game soon that's just core. The Rogue expressed a interest in going wizard/rogue/arcane trickster. I just wanted to check if he could stack his spells like that.

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X/Arcane Trickster Y is the more optimal version of the proposed build. Taking Rogue on your first level provides far better Skill points then taking Wizard on your first level. Unseen Seer only requires 1d6 Sneak Attack (instead of 2d6, which the Arcane Trickster requires) and provides SA progression. This build also only loses 1 caster level. If you want Evasion, buy a ring.


How do you get sneak attack damage more than once a encounter against enemies that arn't flat footed ?

Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat)) or Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) (remember that you can still Charge (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Charge) if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures. Here's a good list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5876523&postcount=16) of magic items to do just that.

4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.

8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

9) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

10) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

11) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.

12) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

13) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

14) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

15) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

16) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

17) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

18) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members. Or invest in Handle animal and buy mules, which are a cheap and effective Grapple partner.

19) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6342523&postcount=23) of ways to deal Dex damage.

20) Feint: This is a waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark), it works for a full attack.

21) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

22) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of maneuvers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).

I would also add that I have a house rule that allows players to trade Sneak Attack for Backstab (which is what it was called in previous editions). It grants the exact same damage bonuses as Sneak Attack, but nothing is immune to it. The trade-off is that it is only triggered when you Flank an enemy. I've found that it's makes Rogue builds jump through a lot fewer hoops, and makes combat more fun.

[DragoonWraith]

Sage is not RAW. Sage is... inspiration for houserules, at best, especially where RAW is ambiguous and a houserule is absolutely necessary just to have a rule one way or the other (so it becomes less houserule and more rule interpretation). But it's definitely not RAW. They've been wrong too many times for that.

[Fax Celestis]

Sage is not RAW. Sage is... inspiration for houserules, at best, especially where RAW is ambiguous and a houserule is absolutely necessary just to have a rule one way or the other (so it becomes less houserule and more rule interpretation). But it's definitely not RAW. They've been wrong too many times for that.

The linked article is in actuality not Sage Advice but instead the Rules of the Game series of articles, which has a far and away better track record.

[deuxhero]

The linked article is in actuality not Sage Advice but instead the Rules of the Game series of articles, which has a far and away better track record.

Except the one that covered the rules on splash weapons and stated everyones proficient with them, then had an example of splash weapon use with a character taking a non-proficiency penalty...

Now what happens if you take a spell that does ability damage and SA a TTS with it? TTS takes ability damage, what happens to the SA damage (which is negative energy damage)?

[Curmudgeon]

The linked article is in actuality not Sage Advice but instead the Rules of the Game series of articles, which has a far and away better track record.
I didn't notice such a discrepancy. It was, after all, the same author (Skip Williams), and he was writing both the "Sage Advice" column and the "Rules of the Game" articles at the same time for a stretch.

[Yuki Akuma]

Now what happens if you take a spell that does ability damage and SA a TTS with it? TTS takes ability damage, what happens to the SA damage (which is negative energy damage)?

Sneak attack a... what?

[AstralFire]

Tombtainted Soul.

[Greenish]

Now what happens if you take a spell that does ability damage and SA a TTS with it? TTS takes ability damage, what happens to the SA damage (which is negative energy damage)?It deals negative energy damage on the poor unfortunate soul.

[Yuki Akuma]

Ah. Yes. Undead can take negative energy damage, and the living can take positive energy damage.

Cure and Inflict spells are special exceptions to the normal rules.

[Sliver]

The description of the feat is misleading in saying both "you are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy" because normal creatures aren't healed by positive energy, only by cure.

But, from the SRD Undead traits:

Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.

Inflict is not an exception, but an example. As a TTS or an Undead, you won't be taking damage from negative energy, but healed. Or is the SRD wrong on that one?

[Greenish]

Inflict is not an exception, but an example. As a TTS or an Undead, you won't be taking damage from negative energy, but healed. Or is the SRD wrong on that one?It says you can be healed by negative energy. There are spells that cause negative energy damage to undead, I seem to recall.

[Yuki Akuma]

The description of the feat is misleading in saying both "you are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy" because normal creatures aren't healed by positive energy, only by cure.

But, from the SRD Undead traits:


Inflict is not an exception, but an example. As a TTS or an Undead, you won't be taking damage from negative energy, but healed. Or is the SRD wrong on that one?

It says "can".

Every single negative energy effect that functions on undead differently says it functions on them differently. There are spells and effects that deal negative energy damage that still harm undead.

That little bit in the undead traits section isn't a blanket rule, it's just saying "Oh, by the way, some spells work differently on undead".

[JaronK]

Sneak attack always does hit point damage, even if it's of a type that wouldn't normally damage you (though if you're resistant to it or immune to it, you might reduce that damage to 0) or if the initial damage wasn't hit point damage. Thus, a Rogue/Cleric who sneak attacks his friends with Cure Light Wounds does not heal with sneak attack, but rather hurts with it (so he probably shouldn't do that). Likewise, Ray of Enfeeblment, when used for sneak attack does negative energy hit point damage in addition to its normal effects.

JaronK

[Myou]

Sneak attack always does hit point damage, even if it's of a type that wouldn't normally damage you (though if you're resistant to it or immune to it, you might reduce that damage to 0) or if the initial damage wasn't hit point damage. Thus, a Rogue/Cleric who sneak attacks his friends with Cure Light Wounds does not heal with sneak attack, but rather hurts with it (so he probably shouldn't do that). Likewise, Ray of Enfeeblment, when used for sneak attack does negative energy hit point damage in addition to its normal effects.

JaronK

For reference, source? :smallsmile:

[Hague]

19) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list of ways to deal Dex damage.

How do you figure these penalties stack? They are all entanglement effects. Next thing you're gonna tell me is that you can double-sicken someone or double-blind them. I would agree however that they would require multiple full-round actions to free themselves.


Entangled

The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.

The penalty stacking in this regard would be insane.

Poison is a decently effective way to deal dex damage. The Bogun, which is accessible at 1st level for Druids, can make a decent flanker (no limit on how many you can create, but one fireball and your druid is looking at X * 2d10 damage) and it also has a dex damaging poison for it's attacks and can fly with Good maneuverability at 10 squares.