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Choco
2010-06-02, 09:59 AM
We all know that casters can easily 1-shot any dragon (shivering touch, anyone?), but what about a group of 4-6 non-caster characters? Can such a group defeat a dragon the "classical" way (AKA knight in shining armor beats the dragon to death with a sword and saves the princess, lucky arrow hits the ONE weak spot, etc.)?

Basically I would like a discussion on the odds of a party with no casters beating a CR appropriate dragon, what tactics they could use, etc. And because I just know this will come up, NO they will NOT be hiring a caster to do the job for them. Hiring a caster to cast buffs (fire resist vs red dragon for instance) or party rogue with UMD using magic items are fine, as would be hiring a healbot (nothing but healing, no CoDZilla). The point of this is to see how/if a no caster party can beat a dragon, and hiring a caster to beat the dragon just defeats the whole purpose.

So, let the flame wars begin!

Smiling Knight
2010-06-02, 10:00 AM
Ubercharger, if he has access to flight, can one-shot many dragons, though that is at higher-optimization levels.

Choco
2010-06-02, 10:01 AM
Cheesy, but a valid tactic. Pray the dragon did not use its caster abilities to predict that, else it could be fun :smallamused:

EDIT: Now that I think about it, Dragons can make AoO's out to quite a distance. Could the ubercharger easily get around a dragon's AoO trip attack?

Saph
2010-06-02, 10:05 AM
Depends on the dragon. No tactic is guaranteed to work on a dragon, not even brokenly-powerful stuff like Shivering Touch (I know five ways to counter that just off the top of my head). The whole point of dragons is that they're custom-built. Depending on what the DM picks for their spells, feats, type, and equipment, they can be anything from tough-but-routine monsters to utter nightmares. If you want a good demonstration of a high-end dragon fight, have a look at the Against the Dragon one-shot Phoenix ran.

A noncaster group would have a chance, but they'd need to be fairly well-designed. Something like a Crusader for tanking paired up with an archer Ranger to do the damage would be a good start.

Critical
2010-06-02, 10:06 AM
EDIT: Now that I think about it, Dragons can make AoO's out to quite a distance. Could the ubercharger easily get around a dragon's AoO trip attack?
With various feats and size increases, he could just have a bigger reach. Also, a Dragon won't get an AoO if flat-footed.

Gnaeus
2010-06-02, 10:09 AM
Party level? Is the dragon intelligent?

Can a party of second level no-caster characters beat a white dragon Wyrmling in a cave? Absolutely. Not much of a fight.

Can a party of 20th level non-casters beat an Old Red Dragon with daylong buffs precast with the dragon in the air, using spell trigger and completion items? I highly doubt it.

jiriku
2010-06-02, 10:13 AM
I would like a discussion on the odds of a party with no casters beating a CR appropriate dragon, what tactics they could use, etc.

Your question contains its own answer. Of course any reasonably functional party can defeat a CR-appropriate dragon. Dragons are somewhat strong for their CR but not unduly so. Any tactics that would work against a manticore, a chimera, or other similar monsters will work against a dragon.

Gnaeus
2010-06-02, 10:21 AM
Any tactics that would work against a manticore, a chimera, or other similar monsters will work against a dragon.

False. A high CR dragon is smarter than the DM. It is a caster, with access to all of a casters tricks. A manticore won't be using greater invisibility combined with cast and move tactics with a staff of fire from 840 feet away in the air.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-02, 10:48 AM
Rogue with a dip into Shadowdancer, plus Darkstalker and the Uncanny Bravery ACF (from Dragon Magic) which makes you immune to a dragon's frightful presence. Maximum Hide, Move Silently, and Use Magic Device skills. Add the wand of Shivering Touch and the job's mostly done.

klemdakherzbag
2010-06-02, 10:55 AM
Well one time in 2nd ed AD&D we were able to take out an old red dragon with 3 well placed 'arrows of red dragon slaying'. The group consisted of one fighter, one ranger and one thief. Only because we knew in advance what we would be fighting and the magi-mart owner thinking that it would be our last trip to his store did he sell us the arrows for cheap.
I don't think 3.5 has any analogue for those wonderful arrows, but if they do then there ya go

Choco
2010-06-02, 11:12 AM
So basically dragon fights are just like any other fight in that as long as the DM is not an ass, the fight will be made to be winable with whatever the party has available. Even if the dragon is a Great Wyrm red with it's 27 (I think) int and 9th level spells and the whole "being a big ass dragon" thing...

Kurald Galain
2010-06-02, 11:22 AM
If you want a good demonstration of a high-end dragon fight, have a look at the Against the Dragon one-shot Phoenix ran.

Do you have a link please?

nekomata2
2010-06-02, 11:24 AM
Well one time in 2nd ed AD&D we were able to take out an old red dragon with 3 well placed 'arrows of red dragon slaying'. The group consisted of one fighter, one ranger and one thief. Only because we knew in advance what we would be fighting and the magi-mart owner thinking that it would be our last trip to his store did he sell us the arrows for cheap.
I don't think 3.5 has any analogue for those wonderful arrows, but if they do then there ya go

3.5 still has slaying arrows.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#slayingArrow

9mm
2010-06-02, 11:25 AM
So basically dragon fights are just like any other fight in that as long as the DM is not an ass, the fight will be made to be winable with whatever the party has available. Even if the dragon is a Great Wyrm red with it's 27 (I think) int and 9th level spells and the whole "being a big ass dragon" thing...

only if "letting them win" is "not being an ass," the problem with dragons is they have so many options that a fight can devolve under many different ways. the dragon may fall back on being a caster, it may get up close and personal, it can hit run, it can mix any of the above.

Machiavellian
2010-06-02, 11:29 AM
I suggest a tripper. Seriously... Use a Goliath with Tall and Unnatural Reach. Be a crusader/fighter with Robilar's Gambit, Thicket of Blades, and every dirty trip trick. Use a Huge Spinning Sword and have fun ;3

Darcy
2010-06-02, 11:32 AM
From an RP/storytelling perspective, regarding the "classical" battles of sword-guy vs. dragon- a lot of the dragons appearing in those stories were either land- or water-dwelling critters. For instance, St. George's dragon came out of a lake, and both Fafnir and Beowulf's unnamed dragon were cave-dwelling creatures. These dragons had formidable fighting prowess but were still beasts, not the super-intelligent magical creatures in D&D. Often it was through trickery that the heroes slew the monsters. St. George for instance wounded the dragon with his lance, then subdued it with a magical girdle. He was then able to bring it before an audience and kill it at his leisure. In the case of Beowulf however, he was able to kill it because that's what Beowulf does. Killing monsters is his business, and business is boomin'.

I guess that's not really helpful, but I just thought I'd throw that in there for consideration. Of course it's also worth pointing out that even without being casters themselves, non-caster classes in D&D have a lot of magical resources available to them that these heroes didn't have, so it potentially balances out.

Saph
2010-06-02, 11:42 AM
Do you have a link please?

Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133571) The party was a group of five Level 20s: I believe four of the five were full casters. The opponent was a Great Wyrm Brass.

The PCs were using moderate cheese: stuff like Shapechange and spamming Contact Other Plane, although infinite loops were forbidden on both sides. Even so, the dragon came off best in the encounter, taking out two of the PCs and forcing the rest to retreat. Unfortunately Phoenix got banned before we got to see who would have won the rematch. :smallwink:

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-06-02, 11:47 AM
i can recal one specific instance where a rogue in a group i was playing with successfully coup-de-gra'd a dragon in its sleep and managed to kill it because it rolled TERRIBLY and he rolled AMAZINGLY. level 7ish i think. . cr appropriate dragon

Saint GoH
2010-06-02, 11:58 AM
Hopefully in the next session I run the CR 14 group will be fighting a Half-Fiend Adult Hex Dragon.

I think they have a caster? Maybe a druid that doesn't know they can shapechange?

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 12:10 PM
Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133571) The party was a group of five Level 20s: I believe four of the five were full casters. The opponent was a Great Wyrm Brass.

The PCs were using moderate cheese: stuff like Shapechange and spamming Contact Other Plane, although infinite loops were forbidden on both sides. Even so, the dragon came off best in the encounter, taking out two of the PCs and forcing the rest to retreat. Unfortunately Phoenix got banned before we got to see who would have won the rematch. :smallwink:

We didn't spam CoPs, just three.....

plus I was thinking of that fiasco as mostly a scouting run to test the target dragon's tactics and abilities, hence the lack of prep work on our part. But you're right that it is a shame to forgoe the rematch... ho-hum...

It's also a great demonstration of how ruddy annoying a dragon can make itself with some thought about it's other movement modes.

Choco
2010-06-02, 12:43 PM
It's also a great demonstration of how ruddy annoying a dragon can make itself with some thought about it's other movement modes.

Yeah, especially blacks or blues on their home turf.

*Fondly recalls TPK at the hands of a black dragon, when the party blindly walked into it's swamp looking for it thinking that, for some reason, the dragon would just stand and melee them until someone died. Instead it hid in the water, waited for the party to cross, did a flyby snatch move grappling the party wizard and dipping back underwater with her on the other side of the path. One dead wizard later and same thing happened to the rogue. Yeah, the whole party died that way, they were too stupid to run.*

That is a good link by the way. I don't think a non-caster party would stand much of a chance against a dragon played THAT well. Not without a "Plot Device of Dragon Pwning" anyway.

WarKitty
2010-06-02, 01:12 PM
What level are we talking? At lower levels a fighter might be more useful than a wizard. At higher levels, not so much.

electricbee
2010-06-02, 01:18 PM
Got rid of my 3.5 books. What exactly does shivering touch do? Why is it a win switch?

DaDude9211
2010-06-02, 01:29 PM
One dragon? Just bumrush it. The barbarians rage, everyone gets in a circle around it an hits it until it dies. If you can, have the rogue open up combat with a sneak attack. You don't even need ToB classes. If he targets 1 dude and he loses too much HP, he walks away and uses a composite longbow.


@electricbee: Shivering Touch is a Dex damage spell, Dragon's generally have a modest Dex score.

Redrat2k6
2010-06-02, 01:42 PM
One dragon? Just bumrush it. The barbarians rage, everyone gets in a circle around it an hits it until it dies. If you can, have the rogue open up combat with a sneak attack. You don't even need ToB classes. If he targets 1 dude and he loses too much HP, he walks away and uses a composite longbow.

If a dragon is played with its intelligence score in mind, this should not happen. Just look at Choco's post.

Eldariel
2010-06-02, 02:11 PM
Got rid of my 3.5 books. What exactly does shivering touch do? Why is it a win switch?

3d6 Dex Damage on Touch Attack with no save. All Dragons have 10 Dex so it has a decent shot of one-shotting them (and their Touch AC is pretty bad) and Maximized (by e.g. Rod) never fails. Level 3 spell. It has SR though and Dragons have access to Scintillating Scales, which makes landing touch attacks difficult too. And that's before we really get to item- and magic-based defenses.

BadJuJu
2010-06-02, 02:15 PM
only if "letting them win" is "not being an ass," the problem with dragons is they have so many options that a fight can devolve under many different ways. the dragon may fall back on being a caster, it may get up close and personal, it can hit run, it can mix any of the above.

I don't use dragons because if you don't pull punches, it is almost impossible to kill them. Especially great worms.

VirOath
2010-06-02, 02:26 PM
As many have said, it really depends on the encounter as a whole. Not only the loadout for the dragon and PCs, but also the terrain and environment.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-02, 04:35 PM
Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133571) The party was a group of five Level 20s: I believe four of the five were full casters. The opponent was a Great Wyrm Brass.
Thanks, that was a cool read!

Heh, an invisible burrowing dragon chain-summoning giant elementals in a zero-visibility dimension lock, pretty epic!

strider24seven
2010-06-02, 04:40 PM
I would normally say a weapon with Spell Storing (Shivering Touch) or a Kensai with that property to his weapon of choice (natural attack ftw), but that seems to be ruled out.

So I would suggest a King of Smack build (minus the spellcasting, but a scroll of Giant Size would do), or a decently built Black Blood Cultist with a dip in Warshaper, who grows massive amounts of natural weapons and then proceeds to grapple said dragon and Savage Grapple him into oblivion.

Jair Barik
2010-06-02, 05:04 PM
Yeah it depends upon what species a lot too. A Shadow dragon can easily take on whole parties in pretty much most conditions if nobody prepped sunlight.

Endarire
2010-06-02, 06:00 PM
I played Red Hand of Doom. My Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon) cohort soloed a CR10 dragon. At level 5.

Foolish dragon landed on the ground and died in 2 rounds.

Eldariel
2010-06-02, 06:21 PM
Foolish dragon landed on the ground and died in 2 rounds.

The Dragon did what?!

Nidogg
2010-06-02, 06:25 PM
Depends. Is the Dm Tailsweepiing EVERYTHING? Is he dragon a well known tthreat i.e "it breaths acid have some acid resist gear!" Basicly if the PC are fighting it old style , is the dragon fighting old style, i.e not trying to EAT the Pcs?

Il_Vec
2010-06-02, 07:08 PM
5-6 Noncasters, including 2 heavy hitters, 1-2 tanks/battlefield controllers and 1-2 skillmonkeys with UMD, with preparation time, contacts and resources, have a reasonable chance if they A- get the dragon by surprise B - lure him to a battlefield where they have advantage or C- Have a DM not using the Dragon to his full potential. They must be able to finish him with one or two rounds worth of actions...

Nidogg
2010-06-02, 07:18 PM
1-2 skillmonkeys with UMD,
But arent they then more or less casters? No, if you replace them with trippy rouges using sneak attack substitutes to stun, silence and inflict ongoing damage (a lot of this stuff in complete scoundrel) that would work just fine.

Fortuna
2010-06-02, 07:44 PM
Has anyone else given any thought to running a new "Against the dragon" game? It seems like it could be fun, and I might step up to DM.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-02, 07:54 PM
But arent they then more or less casters? No, if you replace them with trippy rouges using sneak attack substitutes to stun, silence and inflict ongoing damage (a lot of this stuff in complete scoundrel) that would work just fine.
It would work, but not as quickly as pulling out a big gun like Shivering Touch. A Rogue with Crippling Strike and Savvy Rogue will do 2 points of STR damage on every sneak attack. Disemboweling Strike will do about the same for CON: 1d4 points on a sneak attack (though it reduces normal damage by 4d6, and also requires an extra feat: Weapon Focus).

Compare that to 3d6 DEX damage with one Shivering Touch. This costs no feats; just some skill points (which the Rogue has) and money for a wand (which the Rogue has the skills to acquire).

Gnaeus
2010-06-03, 08:33 AM
5-6 Noncasters, including 2 heavy hitters, 1-2 tanks/battlefield controllers and 1-2 skillmonkeys with UMD, with preparation time, contacts and resources, have a reasonable chance if they A- get the dragon by surprise B - lure him to a battlefield where they have advantage or C- Have a DM not using the Dragon to his full potential. They must be able to finish him with one or two rounds worth of actions...

Sure. And an 8th (maybe a 6th) level fighter can crush a beholder if the beholder decides not to use any of its eye-beams and flies into melee combat to use its 2d4 bite.

If you ignore the intelligence (and wisdom, and experience) of the high CR dragons and treat them as rampaging lizards, you aren't fighting a dragon.

And it isn't always as easy as sneaking in with darkstalker. Minions, traps, and warning spells should all be part of the powerful dragon's inventory of tricks.

It does depend on what type and age of dragon we are talking about. To be sure, things like a wyrmling white aren't difficult for an equal (or even lower) level party. But the powerful dragons SHOULD be nearly impossible for a group without caster support.

Grifthin
2010-06-03, 08:43 AM
It's do-able, but a fairly optimized dragon can give them ALOT of trouble. Our party recently did it (the only thing the cleric cast was ethereal jaunt).
Highlights included:

The Half-Giant hanging on to his sword hilt with it buried in the dragon's upper chest (just under shoulder bone) about 6ft off the ground.

The Half-Dragon balancing on the dragon's back trying to cut through the wing tendons to try and ground it.

The Fighter having completely taken off one of it's limbs, and literally climbing the thing with his great swords (IE, stab, reach up, stab, reach up).

The Dragonborn trying to trip the thing and take it out of the air.

All characters fairly highly optimized, except where thematic features took presedence. If the dragon wasn't a full arcane/Cleric caster it would have died in 1 round. Took down Ancient Red Wyrm.

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-03, 11:10 AM
Bolas... the biggest you can get. :smallbiggrin: Get Explosive Runes scribed on them.

peacenlove
2010-06-03, 11:38 AM
Rogue with a dip into Shadowdancer, plus Darkstalker and the Uncanny Bravery ACF (from Dragon Magic) which makes you immune to a dragon's frightful presence. Maximum Hide, Move Silently, and Use Magic Device skills. Add the wand of Shivering Touch and the job's mostly done.

A dragon's HD is greater than the rogue's (= more skills). Darkstalker is good but not foolproof. Also try to find a dragon who lives underwater or below ground :smallwink:
Lastly Shivering touch allows SR, and with a wand's low caster level it will be hard to overcome


With various feats and size increases, he could just have a bigger reach. Also, a Dragon won't get an AoO if flat-footed.

Combat reflexes + Item which raises dexterity fixes this minor inconvenience plus it opens the way for the epic feat "spellcasting Harrier" which is mage slayer on steroids.

Zieu
2010-06-03, 11:50 AM
As a perfect example of traditional Knights in Shining Armor "charge right in and whack it to death" strategy, my level six, 5-person party consisting of a fighter, barbarian, ranger (me), sorceror and cleric defeated -- but didn't kill -- a CR 10 black dragon without the use of our sorceror.

I'll try to keep this short. The dragon's lair had a 160-foot long, 10-foot wide hallway leading to his main chamber, and he would sit at the end of the hallway and acid splash us as we ran up. Basically, everyone except the sorceror ran forward (because he was scared despite always complaining about never fighting dragons). Once in the chamber, I went behind a rock and fired numerous arrows (each succesful hit granted flanking via Distracting Shot) while the barb and fighter each took up opposite sides to gain extra flanking and force the dragon to make a decision each round as to who was the bigger threat. The Cleric healed. With about 10hp left, the dragon cast darkness and fled, trampling the sorceror on the way out.

In short, attack from multple angles and have at least two melee characters whacking away at it. The more the merrier. Cleric will be busy, but giving everyone Healing Belts or vials of cure moderate will help.

EDIT: I stand corrected. Our sorceror cast Dancing Lights once during the battle because he couldn't see down the hallway. So he did do something.

Superglucose
2010-06-03, 05:14 PM
We all know that casters can easily 1-shot any dragon (shivering touch, anyone?),
Shivvering touch will not work. Dragon either a) uses Scintillating Scales to put his touch AC through the roof or b) acquires the cold subtype. Seriously, Elemental Body: Water. `ro. Shivvering touch doesn't work.



but what about a group of 4-6 non-caster characters? Can such a group defeat a dragon the "classical" way (AKA knight in shining armor beats the dragon to death with a sword and saves the princess, lucky arrow hits the ONE weak spot, etc.)?
At low levels, yes.



Basically I would like a discussion on the odds of a party with no casters beating a CR appropriate dragon, what tactics they could use, etc. And because I just know this will come up, NO they will NOT be hiring a caster to do the job for them. Hiring a caster to cast buffs (fire resist vs red dragon for instance) or party rogue with UMD using magic items are fine, as would be hiring a healbot (nothing but healing, no CoDZilla). The point of this is to see how/if a no caster party can beat a dragon, and hiring a caster to beat the dragon just defeats the whole purpose.
At low levels if they have easy access to fly, they can do fine. A CR 20 dragon casts as a wizard 20 with the HP of a 35th level fighter and saves of a 35th level monk. In short? We've established that core-only, a Wizard 20 is more than a match for 4 fighter 20s. Now what happens if we take a Wizard 20 and give it buffs? Yeah, no.

We did an ECL 20 adventure a while back before the GM got hisself banned, and a party of Wizard 20 (Archmage and Loremaster), Sorcerer 20, Cleric 20 (thaumateurgist), Druid 20, and Ranger 20 were barely holding their own against an ECL 22 dragon. You're telling me you want to switch that lineup out with noncasters and still win? Not going to happen.

Thurbane
2010-06-03, 09:17 PM
@Choco: for this exercise, do the following classes count as casters: Binder, Artificer, Factotum, Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, Shadowcaster or Truenamer?

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-03, 10:00 PM
@Choco: for this exercise, do the following classes count as casters: Binder, Artificer, Factotum, Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, Shadowcaster or Truenamer?

Does a Truenamer count as anything at all? :smallbiggrin:

Thurbane
2010-06-03, 10:06 PM
Does a Truenamer count as anything at all? :smallbiggrin:
Not so much...but I thought I'd include it for the sake of completeness. :smalltongue:

Besides, I've read some threads where with an incredible amount of CO and a fair helping of cheese, they can be made almost playable.

tyckspoon
2010-06-03, 11:16 PM
As a perfect example of traditional Knights in Shining Armor "charge right in and whack it to death" strategy, my level six, 5-person party consisting of a fighter, barbarian, ranger (me), sorceror and cleric defeated -- but didn't kill -- a CR 10 black dragon without the use of our sorceror.


Either you've got the CR wrong or your DM was trying very hard to not kill you. CR 10 would be a Large dragon, and the attack routine of one could reasonably be expected to completely splatter one level 5 character a round. No way Cure Serious is going to keep up with it- it can barely fix the damage of the Bite attack, never mind 2 claws + 2 wings + tail slap.

Zieu
2010-06-04, 12:27 AM
Either you've got the CR wrong or your DM was trying very hard to not kill you. CR 10 would be a Large dragon, and the attack routine of one could reasonably be expected to completely splatter one level 5 character a round. No way Cure Serious is going to keep up with it- it can barely fix the damage of the Bite attack, never mind 2 claws + 2 wings + tail slap.

Must be the latter. Since the dragon flew away, he told us all about it: remaining HP, stats, and the CR. Definitely a 10, he said. We were all level 6, and if I remember right he was a level 8 young adult black dragon. And he only got to use the claws and wings, not the tail due to a stone pillar positioned behind him (making him unable to sweep with it).

Only the two melee PCs were really taking damage, one of whom had a healing belt and the other had the cleric constantly healing him. The fighters were talking great chunks out of the dragon, at least 30 damage per turn, per person. The DM was surprised though, he said he was sure at least one of use would die; he'd directed us to a temple beforehand who so *happened* to offer a free greater resurrection to our party...

Superglucose
2010-06-04, 12:33 AM
Juvie Red Dragon? Strafe with breath weapon. What's your set of non-casters going to do?

Togo
2010-06-04, 02:20 AM
Juvie Red Dragon? Strafe with breath weapon. What's your set of non-casters going to do?

Shoot it?

Seriously guys, the answer lies in what tactics you use versus what tactics it uses. That's all.

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-04, 02:23 AM
Juvie Red Dragon? Strafe with breath weapon. What's your set of non-casters going to do?

Collossal Bolas with "Throw Anything".

Or just Huge Bolas, for a younger dragon.

Choco
2010-06-04, 08:38 AM
@Choco: for this exercise, do the following classes count as casters: Binder, Artificer, Factotum, Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, Shadowcaster or Truenamer?

I have always considered them as such. Basically if their main class abilities are negated in an AMF I count them as casters.

I think we got the answer though, Superglucose described it well. It has been proven over and over that a Wizard 20 can beat a horde of Fighter 20's, and a dragon is basically a Wizard 20 with physical stats way better than a Fighter 20. So I guess the best way to handle a dragon fight would be with plot devices.