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View Full Version : If your Fighter could have 1 level 2 spell - what would it be ? 3.5



Grifthin
2010-06-02, 10:10 AM
Here's the deal, I'm thinking of rolling up a Dragon Disciple/Paladin/Sorceror - What level 2 spell shall I choose ? Only PHB +DMG mind.

Gnaeus
2010-06-02, 10:13 AM
Alter self (for movement types and big NA bonus and natural attacks)

or

Blindness or Blur (No somatic components mean you can wear your plate mail.)

Amphetryon
2010-06-02, 10:15 AM
Alter Self.

Orzel
2010-06-02, 10:17 AM
Alter Self or Blur.

jiriku
2010-06-02, 10:18 AM
Mirror image. No spell of equivalent level will protect you from so much harm, and it retains much of its relevance and effectiveness at higher levels, whereas most offensive spells will quickly become useless as the low damage they deal or their low save DC makes them ineffective.

Murdim
2010-06-02, 10:26 AM
Alter self, Alter self, Alter self. It's powerful, it's versatile, it's fun, it's useful even out of combat, and as a self-buff with a long duration, it is overall more useful for a melee-oriented character than most action-consuming "offensive" spells.

PersonMan
2010-06-02, 10:27 AM
Mirror image. No spell of equivalent level will protect you from so much harm, and it retains much of its relevance and effectiveness at higher levels, whereas most offensive spells will quickly become useless as the low damage they deal or their low save DC makes them ineffective.

+1

A gish PC in a level 21 campaign of mine still uses this spell, and to great effect.

gbprime
2010-06-02, 10:30 AM
Whirling Blade. Smite evil in a 60' line, anyone? :smallbiggrin:

ninjaneer003
2010-06-02, 10:31 AM
Knock or Alter self

imperialspectre
2010-06-02, 10:33 AM
+1

A gish PC in a level 21 campaign of mine still uses this spell, and to great effect.

Wait, there are creatures above level 15 who don't have any access to true seeing? :smallconfused:

OP: Alter Self is a no-brainer. It's the strongest level 2 spell in D&D, and if it's allowed you should make use of it. I feel comfortable telling you to take it, because your character is sub-optimal to begin with and badly needs the utility of being able to fly, swim, or have lots of extra natural armor whenever one of those things would be convenient.

Quietus
2010-06-02, 10:33 AM
Mirror Image isn't bad, but Alter Self is better - particularly if you take Dragon Disciple to its capstone, because then you can use it to turn into dragons of up to 5 HD... which doesn't seem like much, but when you consider this can give you swim and burrow speeds, it can be handy in a pinch. Plus, you know, all the other shenanigans Alter Self can give you.

Hendel
2010-06-02, 10:33 AM
Hands down, give me Wraithstrike!!

Full round of attacks as touch attacks, turn up the power attack, grab a two-handed weapon and unleash the dogs of war!

edit: Sorry did not see the limitation! PHB huh? Maybe Invisibility along with the ones already mentioned, but 2nd level is not just overflowing with great core spells.

Telonius
2010-06-02, 10:45 AM
I'd probably pick Mirror Image, if we're just going by PHB and DMG. (Personally I ban Alter Self shenanigans, but if you don't, then it's probably the best pick for pure power). Going beyond that, Wraithstrike is very tempting. If we're including Artificer Infusions, Lesser Weapon Augmentation is also nice. (Bane: Thing that's attacking me!)

Murdim
2010-06-02, 10:47 AM
Whirling Blade. Smite evil in a 60' line, anyone? :smallbiggrin:
Sadly, I don't think it works. Each target requires a new attack roll, which means that each strike is considered a different melee attack. Yeah, I know, Smite Evil sucks and should at least apply to every attack in a turn. But the rules are very clear : if you want to Smite the Evilness out of several targets with a Whirling Blade, you have to spend as many uses of your ability.

gbprime
2010-06-02, 10:56 AM
Sadly, I don't think it works. Each target requires a new attack roll, which means that each strike is considered a different melee attack. Yeah, I know, Smite Evil sucks and should at least apply to every attack in a turn. But the rules are very clear : if you want to Smite the Evilness out of several targets with a Whirling Blade, you have to spend as many uses of your ability.

Could be read either way, I guess. But it still makes for a scary power attack.

Ormagoden
2010-06-02, 11:00 AM
See invisibility or Darkvision

Because fighters need to see things to hit them.

(and yes I know there are magic items that do this)

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 11:03 AM
Alter Self is indeed powerful. It's perhaps the main reason to be a Tattooed Monk.


Knock or Alter self

The fighter's Knock is a warhammer. :smalltongue:

CockroachTeaParty
2010-06-02, 11:07 AM
Alter Self is probably the best option, but damn if Wraithstrike isn't powerful... Of course, it gets worse with metamagic, but even then, a full-attack touch attack doom-combo is bad news for anyone.

Killer Angel
2010-06-02, 11:12 AM
Alter Self should be the winner, followed by things like Mirror image.
But lacking a wizard in the group (it can happen), Rope Trick can be good.


Alter Self is probably the best option, but damn if Wraithstrike isn't powerful...

...if only we weren't limited to PHB. :smallwink:

TroubleBrewing
2010-06-02, 11:12 AM
Alter Self is your best bet. Invisibility stops being useful the second anything can cast "True Seeing". Ditto for Mirror Image. You can get items to gain invisibility and darkvision, so there's no reason to waste a spell slot there. Wraithstrike is so, so good, but if you've only got access to core materials, Alter Self will never lead you wrong.

Machiavellian
2010-06-02, 11:22 AM
Id ask for 2 first level spells and pick up Entangle and Cone of (dragon's weakness) and voila, you can get basically free hits on somebody

LibraryOgre
2010-06-02, 11:42 AM
A few options I would look into:

1) Something to be cast down-time, when you are not wearing armor.
2) Something without a somatic component, so it can be cast in armor.
3) A 1st level spell that you've permanently stilled (i.e. Still Shield if you're two-handing it).

Person_Man
2010-06-02, 12:43 PM
A Paladin already has some excellent spell options:

Leadership: Give them a Cohort with spellcasting and/or spell-like abilities, and then make your Cohort your Special Mount. This is the easiest way to balance a Paladin with a party of almost any tier.
Sword of the Arcane Order. Lets them memorize Wizard spells. Champions of Valor.
Battle Blessing: Let's you cast Standard Action Paladin spells as a Swift Action. Complete Champion.
Domain/Divine feats: Wide variety of buffs that scale well and run off of Turn Undead uses. Complete Champion/Divine.
Curse Breaker alternate class feature: Lose Remove Disease ability, gain Remove Curse and Break Enchantment. Complete Mage.
Divine Defiance: Burn a turn/rebuke undead use to counter a spell as an Immediate Action. You must still have Dispel Magic or the same spell available though, so this is mostly a high level thing for Paladins. Fiendish Codex II.
Shadow Cloak Knight substitution level: Gain Hide and Move Silently, Favored Enemy, Hide in Plain Site, and Invisibility 1/day (Gnome only, Champions of Valor web add on (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)).
Various splat books are filled with useful and overlooked Paladin spells. Off the top of my head, Knight's Move and Rhino's Rush from Spell Compendium are two of the most valuable. But there are potentially dozens of options.
Wands. Never forget that having a single level of a class entitles you to use all spell trigger items for that class. You can store one in a weapon with a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) or draw one as a Swift action with a Wand Bracer (MIC).


Strait Paladin X with the above options will probably be superior to the Sorcerer/Paladin/DD you propose.

Mando Knight
2010-06-02, 01:17 PM
Mirror Image isn't bad, but Alter Self is better - particularly if you take Dragon Disciple to its capstone, because then you can use it to turn into dragons of up to 5 HD... which doesn't seem like much, but when you consider this can give you swim and burrow speeds, it can be handy in a pinch. Plus, you know, all the other shenanigans Alter Self can give you.

They also give you better fly speeds than the Wings feature of Dragon Disciple or the Fly spell: Brass Wyrmlings are 4HD, Tiny, and have 60' land speed, 30' burrow speed, and 150' (average) flight. The 3HD Whites have a 60' Swim Speed on top of that. Unfortunately for melee, you'd have to stick with a 5HD Small dragon... all of the Medium dragons are at least 7HD.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-02, 01:50 PM
The fighter's Knock is a warhammer. :smalltongue:

Sissie fighter knock is the warhammer. True fighter knock is the fighter.

Os1ris09
2010-06-02, 02:13 PM
A Paladin already has some excellent spell options:

Leadership: Give them a Cohort with spellcasting and/or spell-like abilities, and then make your Cohort your Special Mount. This is the easiest way to balance a Paladin with a party of almost any tier.
Sword of the Arcane Order. Lets them memorize Wizard spells. Champions of Valor.
Battle Blessing: Let's you cast Standard Action Paladin spells as a Swift Action. Complete Champion.
Domain/Divine feats: Wide variety of buffs that scale well and run off of Turn Undead uses. Complete Champion/Divine.
Curse Breaker alternate class feature: Lose Remove Disease ability, gain Remove Curse and Break Enchantment. Complete Mage.
Divine Defiance: Burn a turn/rebuke undead use to counter a spell as an Immediate Action. You must still have Dispel Magic or the same spell available though, so this is mostly a high level thing for Paladins. Fiendish Codex II.
Shadow Cloak Knight substitution level: Gain Hide and Move Silently, Favored Enemy, Hide in Plain Site, and Invisibility 1/day (Gnome only, Champions of Valor web add on (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)).
Various splat books are filled with useful and overlooked Paladin spells. Off the top of my head, Knight's Move and Rhino's Rush from Spell Compendium are two of the most valuable. But there are potentially dozens of options.
Wands. Never forget that having a single level of a class entitles you to use all spell trigger items for that class. You can store one in a weapon with a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) or draw one as a Swift action with a Wand Bracer (MIC).


Strait Paladin X with the above options will probably be superior to the Sorcerer/Paladin/DD you propose.

Two questions:

1) How does leadership gain you the ability to gain a mount? Isn't that up to DM because RAW I don't think it can work unless your cohort is able to be mounted like a hippogriff or something like that.
2) How can Paladin X be better than a scordian build with Abjurant Champion. To me it seems that Paladin X would be better served with high level spells than those crappy 4th lvl spells by paladin X would give you.

@ OP:
I would go with either mirror image OR Alter shape. For reasons given above.

Greenish
2010-06-02, 02:22 PM
Two questions:

1) How does leadership gain you the ability to gain a mount? Isn't that up to DM because RAW I don't think it can work unless your cohort is able to be mounted like a hippogriff or something like that.By RAW, your cohort can be something that can be mounted. Many magical beasts have LA just for being cohorts.

2) How can Paladin X be better than a scordian build with Abjurant Champion. To me it seems that Paladin X would be better served with high level spells than those crappy 4th lvl spells by paladin X would give you.If you have Spell Compendium, paladins get some awesome spells, and besides, paladin spells are all auto-quickened.

[Edit]: Also, auto-quickened wizard spells up to 4th level with full BAB, no AFC and all the other goodies outlined above.

Grifthin
2010-06-03, 08:53 AM
So with alter self you literally Just cast it to get shark gills if you need water breathing, or cat eye's to see in the dark ? or wings to fly ?

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-03, 08:57 AM
Animate Dead is a 2nd-level spell for some class or another, as someone referenced recently.

AmberVael
2010-06-03, 09:00 AM
It could also be fun to have Wings of Cover. Immediate Action, amazing defense? If you're a fighter/dragon disciple, you're going to be in melee combat a lot, and not going to have a whole lot of time to cast spells... Wings of Cover could really be useful.

That said, Alter Self is probably one of the best options. I just want to throw some variety out there.

Greenish
2010-06-03, 09:01 AM
So with alter self you literally Just cast it to get shark gills if you need water breathing, or cat eye's to see in the dark ? or wings to fly ?No, you turn into a form that has them, and you don't get Darkvision from Alter Self.

Grifthin
2010-06-03, 09:02 AM
Do you keep your HP and stats ? So you could be a crow with awesome HP + BAB ?

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-03, 09:03 AM
Do you keep your HP and stats ? So you could be a crow with awesome HP + BAB ?

Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterself.htm) does not work that way.

Greenish
2010-06-03, 09:10 AM
Do you keep your HP and stats ? So you could be a crow with awesome HP + BAB ?Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm).

You keep your original:

Ability scores
BAB
Saves
HP
Class
Level
Most Su and SL abilities
Ex abilities from class levels
Speech & spellcasting (if the new form is capable of it)
Equipment (if the new form can wear/use them)
You lose:

Ex abilities from your race
Your own Natural armour
You gain:

New form's Natural Armour
Size
Movement modes (Ex)
Racial skill bonuses
Racial feats

Cogidubnus
2010-06-03, 09:38 AM
Alter Self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterself.htm) does not work that way.

Yes it does. You keep your HP and BAB. Good luck actually dealing decent damage in that form though. If you want fly, might as well be a small dragon and get some natural armour (and a better speed) than a crow.

Greenish
2010-06-03, 09:52 AM
Yes it does. You keep your HP and BAB. Good luck actually dealing decent damage in that form though. If you want fly, might as well be a small dragon and get some natural armour (and a better speed) than a crow.If you want to turn into a dragon, you must already be a dragon. If you want to turn into a crow, you must already be an animal.

Killer Angel
2010-06-03, 09:57 AM
Yes it does. You keep your HP and BAB. Good luck actually dealing decent damage in that form though. If you want fly, might as well be a small dragon and get some natural armour (and a better speed) than a crow.

You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form (usually humanoid).

Person_Man
2010-06-03, 10:03 AM
1) How does leadership gain you the ability to gain a mount? Isn't that up to DM because RAW I don't think it can work unless your cohort is able to be mounted like a hippogriff or something like that.

Your cohort (gained via Leadership) can be anything approved by the DM, within the HD restrictions set forth in the feat. Page 199-200 of the DMG explains the rules for doing so and specifically lists out various examples, such as a Blink Dog, Pegasus, Unicorn, Dragon, etc. A Paladin may name their Leadership cohort as his Special Mount so that it gains Improved Evasion, can Share Spells, etc, though doing so involves a DM adjudicated penalty to your Leadership score/the mount's ECL.



2) How can Paladin X be better than a scordian build with Abjurant Champion. To me it seems that Paladin X would be better served with high level spells than those crappy 4th lvl spells by paladin X would give you.

As I stated above, Leadership can balance anything, especially for a Paladin.

More to the point though, the OP did not say he was going to play a Wizard/Abjurant Champion/etc, which would have full casting ability, and would indeed be more powerful then a Paladin under most circumstances. He said he was going to play a Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple, which would only have 1st and 2nd level spells. In this case, a strait Paladin (even without Leadership) would be superior, as it would have higher level spells and full BAB. Which is why I suggested it.

balistafreak
2010-06-03, 10:46 AM
As I stated above, Leadership can balance anything, especially for a Paladin.

Not to contradict, but I feel compelled to say that Leadership can also break anything. Use with caution.

"With great power comes great responsibility." :smalltongue:

Nidogg
2010-06-03, 10:55 AM
Stiiled true stike anyone? For when you feel the urge to POWER ATTACK!

Greenish
2010-06-03, 10:57 AM
Stiiled true stike anyone? For when you feel the urge to POWER ATTACK!You can't apply Still Spell on True Strike.

[Edit]: Actually, you can, my bad. Though why would you is beyond me.

Nidogg
2010-06-03, 10:57 AM
Why not, its a spell?

Greenish
2010-06-03, 11:01 AM
Why not, its a spell?Well, you can, I didn't remember that you can apply Still Spell on spells that already lack somatic components if you want to waste higher level spell slots.

candycorn
2010-06-03, 11:01 AM
If the spell is from being a sorceror, wouldn't metamagic be bad? Wouldn't it make it a full round action?

Nidogg
2010-06-03, 11:02 AM
Okay, messed up there. How about +1 to blur then. No metamagic is good for sorceror cos they dont need to prepare beforehand!

Amphetryon
2010-06-03, 11:12 AM
If the spell is from being a sorceror, wouldn't metamagic be bad? Wouldn't it make it a full round action?

Sorcerers, in general, make better use of metamagic than prepared casters because they cast the same spells repeatedly, and therefore get versatility from adding metamagic effects to their spells. They also don't need to prep them as metamagicked ahead of time.

nedz
2010-06-03, 11:16 AM
No metamagic is good for sorceror cos they dont need to prepare beforehand!

Unless you take the Metamagic specalist ATF, but then you don't gain a familier.

I'm assuming the OP is going to take 1 level of Sorceror with Precocious Apprentice, or are they going to take 4 levels of Sorceror to get 2nd level spells?
Is the character giong to wear armour, bacause it does effect the viable options ?
Mayby they should consider a full Gish build ?

Edit:
Its ACF not ATF isn't it, and its non-Core. My Bad

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-03, 11:19 AM
Yes it does. You keep your HP and BAB. Good luck actually dealing decent damage in that form though. If you want fly, might as well be a small dragon and get some natural armour (and a better speed) than a crow.

As someone already mentioned, you can't change into things that don't share a type with you. Of course, a Dragonwrought Kobold can turn into a Shadow Dragon Wyrmling for some nice bonuses. I don't think there are any playable animals, though, so no crows.

Skaven
2010-06-03, 02:06 PM
Hmm, any one of the following:

Glitterdust
Alter Self
Command Undead
Mirror Image
Protection from Arrows
Resist Energy

Eldariel
2010-06-03, 02:11 PM
Alter Self is the only choice. It does everything and is completely broken to boot. And Core so it qualifies. Best level 2 spell in the game.

nedz
2010-06-03, 03:48 PM
For offense:
Web
Silent Image

TroubleBrewing
2010-06-04, 12:06 AM
You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form (usually humanoid).

This isn't to say that it can't be used to gain water breathing or flight as a Humanoid. There are an almost unbelievable number of humanoid races with ALL sorts of nifty abilities to be found in the metric ton of splat books released for 3.5. If you want water breathing, be an aquatic elf. Flight, be a Raptoran. There is a race for almost every weird utility ability you could think of. (For darkvision, I recommend Lenses of Darkvision. Don't bother with a spell for it.)