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Scarey Nerd
2010-06-02, 12:35 PM
I am going to be playing in a Vampire: The Masquerade game soon, unfortunately I can't say what clan I'm playing as for undisclosed reasons, but I wanted to know what your opinions were of the clans? More specifically, your favourite clan, as per the title :smalltongue:

Starscream
2010-06-02, 12:46 PM
Wow, that brings back memories.

I usually played a Gangrel. I like their "Vampire Hippie" fluff, the fact that they were wanderers instead of just staying in the same city for decades on end, and their interesting racial flaw of gaining animal features over time.

Also enjoyed their disciplines. Protean is overrated (everyone thinks turning into a bat is much cooler than it is), but Animalism freaking rocks.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 12:59 PM
Malkavian, when in doubt plug into a hyperconciousness from prehistory which knows everything and the only thing you've got to give up is every last shred of your sanity?????!!>>!??!?! Sign me up Captain Soldier Fish Finger to the Lococomotovotoive of.... say, have you had a haircut?:smallbiggrin:

Scarey Nerd
2010-06-02, 01:02 PM
Malkavian, when in doubt plug into a hyperconciousness from prehistory which knows everything and the only thing you've got to give up is every last shred of your sanity?????!!>>!??!?! Sign me up Captain Soldier Fish Finger to the Lococomotovotoive of.... say, have you had a haircut?:smallbiggrin:

Yes, if I wasn't playing... What I am playing, then I would be going Malkavian, either a fourth-wall breaker, nihilist, or a catatonic guy rocking on his heels.

J.Gellert
2010-06-02, 01:13 PM
Toreador, of course.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 01:42 PM
Yes, if I wasn't playing... What I am playing, then I would be going Malkavian, either a fourth-wall breaker, nihilist, or a catatonic guy rocking on his heels.

Why either? Why not both? or all sixteen? With ORANGES!!!

Eurus
2010-06-02, 01:50 PM
I like Malkavians, but prefer the sheer volume of insanity to be toned down. It's more amusing when they can actually fool other people into believing that they're sane.

Scarey Nerd
2010-06-02, 01:52 PM
I think my favourite form of Malkavian insanity is the nonsensical giggler that occasionally comes out with the most insightful, prophetic wisdom you could think of.

Starscream
2010-06-02, 01:55 PM
I enjoy Malks, but only when I want to play "scary insane" instead of "silly insane". The books themselves warned about making them too goofy. One said that the average Malk is much more likely to be carrying around a bloody razor blade than a fluffy teddy bear.

I say split the difference: carry a fluffy teddy bear with a razor hidden inside.

Nosferatu are also fun.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-02, 01:55 PM
I have only played one session of V:TM; but I really liked the Assamites; but LaSombra and Raknos seemed great though (would have played one of them if the group was entirely composed on members of the Caramilla)

Cristo Meyers
2010-06-02, 01:57 PM
I actually have the Toreador clan symbol as a pin I usually wear on my jacket lapels. Really funny when people actually recognize it for what it is, rather than just a black rose.


I like Malkavians, but prefer the sheer volume of insanity to be toned down. It's more amusing when they can actually fool other people into believing that they're sane.

Even better when they save the whole group and then you get to report to the Prince and explain how the guy that is in the corner having a heated debate with the fire extinguisher saved everyone's undead backside :smallbiggrin:

J.Gellert
2010-06-02, 02:03 PM
I actually have the Toreador clan symbol as a pin I usually wear on my jacket lapels. Really funny when people actually recognize it for what it is, rather than just a black rose.

Do they start running?

hangedman1984
2010-06-02, 02:05 PM
Lasombra, pretentiousness and creepy shadow powers ftw!

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-02, 02:07 PM
Please remind me what was the "drawback" of the Lasombra? where they the ones who didn't cast reflection... or they were burn even in moonlight?

Lapak
2010-06-02, 02:09 PM
I enjoy Malks, but only when I want to play "scary insane" instead of "silly insane". The books themselves warned about making them too goofy. One said that the average Malk is much more likely to be carrying around a bloody razor blade than a fluffy teddy bear.

I say split the difference: carry a fluffy teddy bear with a razor hidden inside.

Nosferatu are also fun.Indeed. A reasonable model for a Malk to follow is Heath Ledger's Joker: clearly insane, but equally clearly malevolent.

Siegel
2010-06-02, 02:10 PM
Tsciemisce (is this how it is spelled ?) and this ilusionist-gipsy guys.

On the mainclans i really like Gangrel and Ventrue

Satyr
2010-06-02, 02:51 PM
The Banu Haqim, or Assamites.
Neither as great hypocrites as the Camarillas, nor as "look, we're soooo evil" as the Sabbat.

Person_Man
2010-06-02, 02:52 PM
Here's a list of your options (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clans_and_Bloodlines_in_Vampire:_The_Masquerade). I'm fond of Ravnos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ravnos), because open ended use of Chimerstry (http://wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php?title=Chimerstry) is just so darn fun. Choose Perjury as your "compulsive crime" Weakness, because if you ever have to testify in a court hearing you know that you have to lie anyway.

Cicciograna
2010-06-02, 02:58 PM
My first and most successful character was a Ventrue. I was a fracking manipultaive bastard who had all the other players in my hands with Domination and Presence: they hated me, but my roleplay was ineccepible. I even managed to place one of them, a Brujah, under a Blood Bond (badly played by him - the Storyteller allowed him to do things completely awful, so I had to cut the bond).
I had become the right arm of Capone, and I would have rised even more in power hadn't us interrupted the campaign...

Were I to play again, I'd pick Nosferatu and put LOTS of points in Backgrounds, such as Allies and Contacts: in V:TM he who knows, wins.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 03:25 PM
Were I to play again, I'd pick Nosferatu and put LOTS of points in Backgrounds, such as Allies and Contacts: in V:TM he who knows, wins.

Hence the bitchin' pluggin into a dead god of omniscience thingie.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-02, 03:28 PM
I am a major, major fan of the Setites and in particular their Aztec bloodline, the Tlacique. Obfuscate, Presence, Protean: the whole package. Assamites are also cool if you use their blood magic stuff, and Tremere are gamebreakingly hilarious.

That said, I am at heart a Ventrue.

BobVosh
2010-06-02, 03:43 PM
I enjoy Malks, but only when I want to play "scary insane" instead of "silly insane". The books themselves warned about making them too goofy. One said that the average Malk is much more likely to be carrying around a bloody razor blade than a fluffy teddy bear.

I say split the difference: carry a fluffy teddy bear with a razor hidden inside.

Nosferatu are also fun.

Exactly! I love me some malkies, but I was told to stop playing them. Something about disturbing them too much.

Nosferatu is my common second, I love playing with the power to summon rats.

Scarey Nerd
2010-06-02, 04:10 PM
Please remind me what was the "drawback" of the Lasombra? where they the ones who didn't cast reflection... or they were burn even in moonlight?

Lasombra cannot cast a reflection, which I find a nice little piece of fluff to freak out a victim with.

Lord Vampyre
2010-06-02, 04:18 PM
This really depends on whether or talking about old WoD or new WoD?

Personally, in the old WoD system my favorite clan was the Old World Tzimisce. As a close second, I normally would play Gangrel. I really liked the whole feral vampire concept.

In the new WoD system, I still like the idea of playing Gangrel, but would really like to play an Architect of the Monolith at some point.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-02, 04:42 PM
OLD!!!!! TEXT TEXT TEXT

Person_Man
2010-06-02, 04:44 PM
[off topic]Does anyone know if they're going to make another video game any time soon? Bloodlines was freaking awesome.[/off topic]

The Tygre
2010-06-02, 05:12 PM
BAALI. A clan so evil, so heinously (juvenile) over the top in debauchery and wickedness, it scared the Tzimisce and had all the clans unite just to wipe them out in the Dark Ages. But who says they won't make a comeback?

But if unbridled sin isn't your thing, either Nosferatu or Tzimisce. I'm a sucker for the old world Tzimisce, and their flesh-sculpting is creepy as Hell. But Nosferatu has always been my first love. Hell, one of the things that sucked me into nWoD was that the clan got promoted from 'mutant-sewer lord-spy master' vampires to 'lords of human fear'.

Aron Times
2010-06-02, 05:19 PM
[off topic]Does anyone know if they're going to make another video game any time soon? Bloodlines was freaking awesome.[/off topic]
The makers of EVE Online are making a World of Darkness MMORPG.

EVE Online is a one-server MMORPG where everyone stays in character and level grinding doesn't exist. Here's a link to their TV Tropes page. It's an interesting read.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EveOnline

SurlySeraph
2010-06-02, 05:46 PM
Brujah. Screw yer politics, I'm gonna go beat up a Lupine with a street lamp. Then I'm gonna headbutt a Ventrue, call the Prince a fascist, and go to sleep in someone else's Haven.

TheThan
2010-06-02, 05:49 PM
Clan Wolf is much cooler than clan Jade Falcon…. Oh wait wrong clans.

comicshorse
2010-06-02, 06:01 PM
Giovanni, mafia necromancers, what's not to love

Set
2010-06-02, 06:08 PM
I've played at least one of each Camarilla clan (since I promised myself I would before I went on to the twinky ones, being annoyed with fellow gamers who breezed right past the standard fare for the cheesiest options).

The most effective at being vampires would be Ventrue and Malkavians, due to their natures and disciplines. In a long running intrigue-laden chronicle, you can do great things with these clans.

But many STs run VtM more like 'D&D with vampires,' with tons of combat and the like, in which case, Brujah and Nosferatu might be better choices.

Any of these four clans can be used in an opposing sort of chronicle, as the Ventrue and Malkavians can surround themselves with ghouls during fighty McFight bits of story and the Nosferatu and Brujah are hardly useless at subtle machinations, with well-used Backgrounds (followers, influences, etc), Animalism, Obfuscate and / or Presence.

In my experience, Gangrel and Tremere are both terribly overrated. Brujah and Nosferatu both mutilate Gangrel for melee combatants and Tremere blow through XP like water gaining Thaumaturgical rituals and paths that can, sometimes, be almost as effective as a handgun or home security system. Ooh, ooh. (Indeed, the most game-effective Thaumaturgist I've ever seen was a Dominate specialist with a smattering of Auspex, which would have been the exact same character if he'd played a Malkavian.)

Note that the above advice doesn't count if you play a Tremere with Spirit Thaumaturgy 1 (assign free botches to a foe) and don't get suckered into putting another point into Thaum. That's just good clean fun.

The superiority of Brujah also relies on what version of Celerity is being used. It's, generally, either ridiculously overpowered or nerfed into being a waste of points that could be far better spent elsewhere. If it's OP, go for it. If it's some house ruled happy medium, it's probably still worth it. Still, a Brujah with Celerity 1 and Potence 5 can be an extremely viable character, for a fight-heavy chronicle. (And, this could just be me, but fight-heavy chronicles aren't really 'vampire the masquerade games' so much, so I don't bother giving them Fortitude, since there's really no point to such a game, just ever-increasing fight scenes. Let them get ganked, drink some beer and pull out the next character sheet. It's not worth developing goals or ambitions for a character in such a chronicle, just try to make each character death memorable and fun. If it's gonna be a whirlwind, might as well ride it.)

Note that many 'specialist' disciplines are junk. There's no level of Quietus that makes an Assamite a better assassin than a Nosferatu with Potence 5. There's no level of Dementation that allows a Sabbat Malkavian to make someone as crazy as a Camarilla Malkavian with Dominate 3. Serpentis? Waste of time, a Follower of Set fulfilling his Clan role will be using some combination of Obfuscate, Presence, Auspex and Dominate, not turning into a snake, which, as the Evil Overlord's Handbook helpfully reminds us, never helps. Chimerstry? Costs willpower for the meekest and most ineffectual use, which can take *months* to recover, unless your ST allows the optional Meditation secondary skill.

Vicissitude and Necromancy are exceptions. Both are insanely useful, and Necromancy, in particular, trumps just about every other discipline in the game, several times over, allowing someone to send invisible indestructible ghostly scouts to follow the other Kindred in town and learn their secrets, to attack people from a position where they can't even tell who is attacking them, let alone being able to retaliate, and possibly even to have your bound spirits possess people. If the ST is using the 'generic ghosts' to represent the bound souls, it's *awesome.* If he's using the Wraith rules, it's a million times better, as you gain access to an entire rules book worth of options, that other vampires can't fight, can't detect, and, generally, don't even know exists, to throw at your rivals.

KillianHawkeye
2010-06-02, 06:59 PM
True Brujah

Worira
2010-06-02, 07:23 PM
The makers of EVE Online are making a World of Darkness MMORPG.

EVE Online is a one-server MMORPG where everyone stays in character and level grinding doesn't exist. Here's a link to their TV Tropes page. It's an interesting read.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EveOnline

I cannot think of a company I would trust more to make a game about screwing everyone over all the time.

Dust
2010-06-02, 07:41 PM
When I used to play, it was a Malk that everyone thought was a Caitiff. He was a snivelling, worthless little weasel scared of his own shadow. His character sheet was SEVERELY under-pointed. With Multiple Personality Disorder, of course.
The second sheet I kept hidden was for his alter-ego. Nobody ever expects a Malkavian with Potence and Celerity, I'll tell you that much.

Nosferatu were high on the list of simply fun to play, as well.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-02, 08:16 PM
Also I forgot Salubri Antitribu. Om nom nom delishus valeren

Chineselegolas
2010-06-02, 10:17 PM
True Brujah
Hilarious group them. Never been allowed to play one though, ah well.

Do like Gangrel, but they are my stereotype character in whatever game. I end up making them by accident in whatever game or system.

Also like Assamite. Nothing like killing in absolute silence

Kish
2010-06-02, 11:51 PM
Favorite? Hm...I'd have to say Tzimisce.

Note that I hate 3ed; everything I say about VtM refers to 2ed unless I specify otherwise.

archon_huskie
2010-06-03, 01:38 AM
Toreador - Over looked potential. Really like how they were merged with the Brujah and Ravnos to make the Daeva in V:tR

Aron Times
2010-06-03, 03:13 PM
Yeah, the Daeva have Brujah Disciplines, Ravnos clan weakness, and Toreador fluff.

Anyway, I liked the Malkavians in Masquerade. When I first started playing, I thought that Dementation was awesome, but I eventually realized that it was worthless and that I should've opted to take Dominate instead (Revised Edition Malkavians can be created with either Dominate or Dementation).

Clan Malkavian and Clan Ventrue were combined in Requiem as the Ventrue. All Ventrue have a -2 penalty to resist derangement checks, which means that sooner or later (usually sooner), all Ventrue go insane. There is also the Malkovian bloodline, which resembles the pre-Revised Edition Malkavians in Masquerade, and the Malkavian disease/bloodline, which resembles the Revised Edition Malkavians.

Ventrue get Animalism, Dominate, and Resilience.

Malkovians get Auspex, Dominate, Obfuscate, Resilience, and one permanent derangement which gets triggered each time he rolls anything other than a normal success on a Dominate roll.

Malkavians are a special case, in that it is not limited to the Ventrue. A vampire who gets infected by Malkavia gains a permanent derangement, the Ventrue clan weakness, and access to Dementation. If the vampire is already a Ventrue, his clan weakness penalty doesn't double, so Ventrue lose slightly less from being infected by Malkavia.

Tome
2010-06-03, 03:29 PM
Malkavian, of the not-quite-as-mad-as-he-pretends-to-be sort. After all, nobody ever suspects the guy who just spent three hours talking to his rubber ducky of being the chessmaster behind the elaborate and subtle scheme.

Failing that, Tzimisce were fun.

Kesnit
2010-06-03, 03:46 PM
Malkavian, of the not-quite-as-mad-as-he-pretends-to-be sort. After all, nobody ever suspects the guy who just spent three hours talking to his rubber ducky of being the chessmaster behind the elaborate and subtle scheme.

The ST of the Requiem game I play in did that. Except the Prince's Advisor (who really ruled the city) talked to plants and not his rubber ducky.

Aron Times
2010-06-03, 03:49 PM
The ST of the Requiem game I play in did that. Except the Prince's Advisor (who really ruled the city) talked to plants and not his rubber ducky.
AFB right now, but there is a Gangrel bloodline IIRC that can use Animalism to talk to plants. You sure he isn't one of them?

Tome
2010-06-03, 03:51 PM
The ST of the Requiem game I play in did that. Except the Prince's Advisor (who really ruled the city) talked to plants and not his rubber ducky.

It is fun, particularly if not even the other players realise what you're doing. Heh, they thought all those notes were about hallucinations... :smallamused:

Umael
2010-06-03, 05:07 PM
*snip*

Funny.

I've found all the Camarilla Clans to be fairly-well balanced - but then, I don't run games that are just intrigue or just combat.

The only mechanical difference between the Clans are the Clan weaknesses and the In-Clan Discipines, and the only fluff that matters is what the Storyteller agrees.

Nature? Backgrounds? All dependent on the Storyteller's whim and the player's creativity.

Since you mentioned ghouls, why should any vampire be limited in a combat-heavy game? You also mentioned Backgrounds, so I ask as well, why should any vampire be limited in an intrigue-heavy game?



In my experience, Gangrel and Tremere are both terribly overrated. Brujah and Nosferatu both mutilate Gangrel for melee combatants

Bad mechanics, as far as the Gangrel are concerned. Celerity is the killer combat Discipline, Fortitude is pathetic, and Protean doesn't get the respect it deserves.

1) Make Fortitude auto-successes on a soak.
2) Allow a defending vampire to attempt a Dodge against all Celerity attacks, even if the defending vampire doesn't have Celerity.
3) Give +1 Strength, +3 Dexterity, +2 Stamina when in wolf form (as per Lupus as per Werewolf).

Thaumaturgy is... poorly defined. Very poorly.

(In the LARP, Thaumaturgy is the cheesiest Discipline, even beating Celerity.)


(Indeed, the most game-effective Thaumaturgist I've ever seen was a Dominate specialist with a smattering of Auspex, which would have been the exact same character if he'd played a Malkavian.)

Insane Warlock, you say?



The superiority of Brujah also relies on what version of Celerity is being used. It's, generally, either ridiculously overpowered or nerfed into being a waste of points that could be far better spent elsewhere.

See above for my suggestion.



Note that many 'specialist' disciplines are junk. There's no level of Quietus that makes an Assamite a better assassin than a Nosferatu with Potence 5.

???

Quietus 1. Use that silence to your advantage - shotgun at close range.
Quietus 4. Turn a melee weapon into a weapon that does aggravated damage - which your Potence will not. Fortitude doesn't look so bad now.
Quietus 5. Ranged combat.



There's no level of Dementation that allows a Sabbat Malkavian to make someone as crazy as a Camarilla Malkavian with Dominate 3.

You cannot Dominate someone into getting Derrangements. You don't have to be the same generation or lower to affect them.

Or, put it another way - which do you think the Joker would be - Camarilla Malkavian with Dominate or Sabbat Malkavian with Dementation?



Serpentis?

You could be right on this - I only used one Settite for one campaign.



Chimerstry? Costs willpower for the meekest and most ineffectual use, which can take *months* to recover, unless your ST allows the optional Meditation secondary skill.

?!?

Months??

Either you rule that it costs permanent Willpower, or you don't play in games where temporary Willpower is recovered easily at all.



Vicissitude and Necromancy are exceptions.

Ick.

Serious cheese factor there.

Jerthanis
2010-06-03, 05:30 PM
My favorite was probably Gangrel. I liked what I saw as more "classic" vampire powers of Protean and Animalism. I guess Dracula did have "the strength of 10 men" and basically used Dominate/Awe on pretty much everyone he came across, so my impression isn't terribly accurate, but to me there's nothing more Vampire than turning into a bat and commanding the beasts of the night.

I actually really liked the Sabbat too, and really wanted to play a Sabbat chronicle at some point. I think looking at the Sabbat as the "bad guys" really did them and White-Wolf a disservice. War in the Vampire world isn't about right and wrong, the Camarilla aren't the good guys. Vampire factions predate Zoroastrianism.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-03, 05:35 PM
Quietus 1. Use that silence to your advantage - shotgun at close range.
Quietus 4. Turn a melee weapon into a weapon that does aggravated damage - which your Potence will not. Fortitude doesn't look so bad now.
Quietus 5. Ranged combat.

Check this out.

Nosferatu, Potence 5, Square Teeth, Blunt Teeth, Tusks traits. You now have a bite attack that deals +lol aggravated damage. You look like the unholy union of Jabba the Hutt and a wild boar, but it is freaking terrifying.

Also also I keep forgetting: my favorite vampiric bloodline are the Ananasi.

Umael
2010-06-03, 06:09 PM
Check this out.

Nosferatu, Potence 5, Square Teeth, Blunt Teeth, Tusks traits. You now have a bite attack that deals +lol aggravated damage. You look like the unholy union of Jabba the Hutt and a wild boar, but it is freaking terrifying.

Also also I keep forgetting: my favorite vampiric bloodline are the Ananasi.

Your Nosferatu had better have at least Obfuscate 2, preferably higher, or you're pretty much a walking Breach of the Masquerade.

So... Obfuscate 2, Potence 5... balance with an Assamite with Quietus 5, Obfuscate 2. Don't notice me until I'm there, don't hear me as I slaughter your guards. Furthermore, I can still kill you at range without needing a manhole cover, thrown gate, or thrown car. Or Quietus 4, give my ghouls a few daggers and have them do the killing for me.

Quietus 2 and Quietus 3 kinda suck though.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-03, 06:14 PM
Your Nosferatu had better have at least Obfuscate 2, preferably higher, or you're pretty much a walking Breach of the Masquerade.

What Nossie isn't?

Seriously, if you want to talk combat optimisation you're using the wrong game engine and the wrong setting and the wrong game....:smallfrown:

NPCMook
2010-06-03, 07:36 PM
Kiev Circle Blood Brothers

Xallace
2010-06-03, 09:13 PM
Giovanni, mafia necromancers, what's not to love

See, that's how I felt too for the first, oh, 4 or 5 sentences of their description. Then we got into the part about... "keeping it all in the family," if ya' catch my drift. :smalleek:

Umael
2010-06-04, 12:08 AM
What Nossie isn't?

Umm... most, actually.

Seriously, most Nosferatu look like mutants from a B-grade horror film. Burn victims are also good inspiration for what a Nosferatu can look like. Horrifying, disgusting, but not an automatic walking Breach of the Masquerade.



Seriously, if you want to talk combat optimisation you're using the wrong game engine and the wrong setting and the wrong game....:smallfrown:

*chuckle*

And I've heard of groups who insist on massive amounts of RPing at the expense of combat... in a Champions game.

I see your point. WoD doesn't lend itself well to combat-intensive scenarios.

Seffbasilisk
2010-06-04, 12:44 AM
Brujah. Vampires go for all sorts of subterfuge and tricky play. Kick in the door, and just hack down the guards? Well, aren't you in the lobster-pot!

Gangrel is fun for the were-wolf vampire concept...but it's like a druid who wears a tin-foil helmet.

Quincunx
2010-06-04, 05:29 AM
It is fun, particularly if not even the other players realise what you're doing. Heh, they thought all those notes were about hallucinations... :smallamused:

Also works when those 'notes' (mutterings, questions, and every little thing crafted--did I mention I love the variant discipline which meant I could craft Dementation into significant items? because I do) really are about hallucinations but thanks to some ambiguous wording and recent events, appear to be laden with significance. When people are heeding the village idiot. . .two words: power vacuum. And Nature abhors a vacuum.

I quite agree with you, even to the order of favorite clans. Reality is what you make of it, figuratively or literally. :smallbiggrin:

J.Gellert
2010-06-04, 07:15 AM
I like the corruption part of the Followers of Set... as well as many powers of Serpentis. However, I'm not sure I care much for the religious aspect of that clan.

panaikhan
2010-06-04, 07:55 AM
The two characters I've had the most fun with, were (in order):

A Daughter of Cacophony

A Dark Ages Tsimizce (WAY off on spelling that one I think).

Gnaeus
2010-06-04, 07:59 AM
For beginners, Malkavian or Brujah. Good discipline selections. Easy and relatively forgiving clan concepts.

For expert, mature players, Tremere. The clan structure is a weakness for new players, who will wind up on the wrong end of the system, but a strength for people who know how to use it. A well run chantry is one of the strongest coteries of vampires for its generation level, incorporating specialists in combat, espionage, mind control, mortal influence, and more esoteric fields. Played badly, thaumaturgy is almost a disadvantage. Run by a patient optimizer, it is probably the strongest discipline in the game.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-04, 08:34 AM
A Dark Ages Tsimizce (WAY off on spelling that one I think).

actually if you just swap around the z and the s you're golden.

J.Gellert
2010-06-04, 09:06 AM
The Tzimisce are interesting as an idea, and we have an entire street named after the clan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsimiski_Street) (but not really) :smallbiggrin: where I live. I just don't care for their style aesthetically.

Caliphbubba
2010-06-04, 09:08 AM
I tell everyone I'm Nosferatu by Nature. I really like the Nos.

Brujah idealist was a fun character to play as well.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-04, 09:23 AM
I enjoy Malks, but only when I want to play "scary insane" instead of "silly insane". The books themselves warned about making them too goofy.
Yes. Not everybody can play a Malkavian well. For instance, "compulsive liar" is a much more interesting derangement than "gibbering psycho who continually attacks people for no reason". Also, less likely to get you taken down by the primogen.

I like Tories and Ventrue. Say what you will, but they've got style. Come to think of it (presence presence presence), say what I will. When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you. :smallbiggrin:

Zenos
2010-06-04, 09:32 AM
I have only been in one campaign of Vampire: The Dark Ages but I really like Ventrue. Tzimisce are quite fun in their own manner.

Mauther
2010-06-04, 11:43 AM
Out of the vanilla's I was always partial to either Brujah or Ventrue, its always fun to either rail against the man or actually be the man. Both are survivable combat characters, but have the skills and disciplines to survive the social game. coin toss for me which was more useful: Dominate or Presence.

Stepping out of the box, nothing beats the Giovanni. Having a masquerade within the the masquerade is just plain fun. Plus the constant mantra "we don't partake in politics" while neck deep in undercutting the local prince. Tack on the fact that you are considered creepy by blood sucking monsters as a bonus (incest, necromancy, feeding off the dead, go Dunsirn bloodline and add cannabalism to the mix). And the sheer variety available within the clan lets you play just about anything: Putanescu enforcer, Milliner banker\politician, Giovanni Necromancer. And that's without getting into the fun with Wraiths portion, an entire game mechanic that most other vamps are completely ignorant of.

Going into Cheeselvania, True Brujah pretty much take the cake. 5-6th generation so your pretty damn ancient.You get to look down on everybody since your older, more powerful, have a spiffy home in Enoch. Oh yeah, your discipline lets you control time itself. While not powerful at the lower levels, sicne all True Brujah are ridiculously old, they usually have access to the advanced levels which allow time stoppage, time travel, and inflicting/reversing aging on others. "Hey Mr Chrinos Garou, nigh unstoppable killing machine, how tough were you as a 2 year old?" (poof-wagh!) Now that's just good stuff.

Cristo Meyers
2010-06-04, 11:50 AM
Do they start running?

Usually just inside vampire humor.

"A little early to be out, isn't it?"

"What? Am I sparkling?"

So, not strictly V:TM related, but still

Better one was "Aren't you supposed to be in command of the room when you walk in?"

"Got your attention, didn't I?"

Rarer and rarer these days, though.

I experiment with Tzismcee a bit, but I could never get the hang of it. Being a complete and unrepentant amoral monster is one thing, but these guys go above and beyond...

Quincunx
2010-06-04, 12:02 PM
You say "above and beyond" as though it's a bad thing. Excelsior!
Being Tzimisce is a matter of finding the unchanging truths once the supposed unchanging truths (death, immutability of the flesh, etc.) get kicked out from under you, and doing this with the full force of intellect denied to the Malkavians. Social and moral rules just don't survive the scrutiny. "In the year 2525" is a hallelujah chorus.

I don't think it's a coincidence that all of the clans who aspire to Become Something Higher (as opposed to the Brujah who just want to Deal with Someone Else) are barred from Camarilla games and mindsets. The belief that humanity is highest and the society-friendly Path of Humanity go hand-in-hand. Otherwise you get folks with variant paths having fundamental flame-war disagreements with the humanists, and play grinds to an ideological halt.

Umael
2010-06-04, 12:16 PM
I don't think it's a coincidence that all of the clans who aspire to Become Something Higher (as opposed to the Brujah who just want to Deal with Someone Else) are barred from Camarilla games and mindsets. The belief that humanity is highest and the society-friendly Path of Humanity go hand-in-hand. Otherwise you get folks with variant paths having fundamental flame-war disagreements with the humanists, and play grinds to an ideological halt.

*nod* Agreed.

Playing the dark side is fun, but most people prefer to consider the notion that there is something nastier out there than they are. In my boat, people who want to play the baddest of all, the vampires so nasty even the Baali think they are disgusting low-(un)lives, are not people I want to include in my games.

It is also why most Baali, Infernalists, Settites, and Tzimisce are strickly NPC only. Yes, there are exceptions, but like rogue Tremere, they are called exceptions for a reason.

Cristo Meyers
2010-06-04, 12:30 PM
You say "above and beyond" as though it's a bad thing. Excelsior!
Being Tzimisce is a matter of finding the unchanging truths once the supposed unchanging truths (death, immutability of the flesh, etc.) get kicked out from under you, and doing this with the full force of intellect denied to the Malkavians. Social and moral rules just don't survive the scrutiny. "In the year 2525" is a hallelujah chorus.


Quite the contrary, it's great when it's done right. I just lack the mindset to do it right.

Tzimisce isn't just amoral, it's almost a completely foreign mindset, and that's just really tricky for me to do properly.

Chen
2010-06-04, 12:38 PM
In my experience, Gangrel and Tremere are both terribly overrated. Brujah and Nosferatu both mutilate Gangrel for melee combatants and Tremere blow through XP like water gaining Thaumaturgical rituals and paths that can, sometimes, be almost as effective as a handgun or home security system. Ooh, ooh. (Indeed, the most game-effective Thaumaturgist I've ever seen was a Dominate specialist with a smattering of Auspex, which would have been the exact same character if he'd played a Malkavian.)

Gangrel are pretty weak. Protean is a fantastic discipline but fortitude and animalism are both pretty weak. Unless people are constantly buying out of clan disciplines (like Fortitude) Protean is still ridiculously dangerous towards vampires (like any Aggravated damage).

There are some Thaum rituals that are completely irreplaceable, which alone make it worth the xp. Pavise of Foul Presence is pretty damn strong. Ethereal Passage is game breakingly strong. Burning blade + Splinter servant is absurd (though really burning blade alone is absurd). Path of Creation is completely broken as is Path of Blood 3 along with the Vitae Infusion ritual (what you've reduced your gen to 5th, pumped all your stats to 7 for the scene and still have full blood because you have a bag full of blood coins?). Not to mention the fact that Tremere also get Auspex and Dominate which are two other extremely strong Disciplines.



Note that many 'specialist' disciplines are junk. There's no level of Quietus that makes an Assamite a better assassin than a Nosferatu with Potence 5.

Depends on the Vampire you're trying to kill. One without Fortitude will probably die faster to the Assamite than the Nosferatu, depending on its Stam. If the initial hit doesn't kill them (which it could in both cases fairly easily), its better to have damage done that can't be healed.


There's no level of Dementation that allows a Sabbat Malkavian to make someone as crazy as a Camarilla Malkavian with Dominate 3.

You can't dominate people to have derangements until well past 6 dot powers I think.



Serpentis? Waste of time, a Follower of Set fulfilling his Clan role will be using some combination of Obfuscate, Presence, Auspex and Dominate, not turning into a snake, which, as the Evil Overlord's Handbook helpfully reminds us, never helps.

Serpentis is just a cheesy combat discipline. Aggravated damage plus reduced soak (and the ability to soak Agg). Serpentis 1 is pretty damn useful against mortals too. The snake form is kinda dumb (besides the combat applications) and the removing your heart thing is also kinda pointless.


Chimerstry? Costs willpower for the meekest and most ineffectual use, which can take *months* to recover, unless your ST allows the optional Meditation secondary skill.

It really shouldn't take that long to regain willpower. But I do agree Chimistry is FAR too weak due to the willpower cost. Its a bit hard to balance because I imagine it would be downright broken if it just cost blood though.

Trenelus
2010-06-05, 10:08 AM
I like all the Camarilla clans much, but selling point for the clan Tremere over others was in clan Brujah's stereotypes:
Tremere: "It's like someone Embraced a bunch of D&D geeks and told them their spells were real."

loopy
2010-06-05, 10:25 AM
I like Tories and Ventrue. Say what you will, but they've got style. Come to think of it (presence presence presence), say what I will. When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you. :smallbiggrin:

Everything I like about those clans (and my approach to life in general) is summarised by this quote. :smallbiggrin:

Umael
2010-06-05, 10:57 AM
Gangrel are pretty weak. Protean is a fantastic discipline but fortitude and animalism are both pretty weak. Unless people are constantly buying out of clan disciplines (like Fortitude) Protean is still ridiculously dangerous towards vampires (like any Aggravated damage).

Gangrel, as loners surviving in the wilderness, are great. They are not naturally inclined towards intrigue, but generally just exist and let exist. You are less likely to run into them in a city, where animalism is weak, but there is no reason you can't use animal spies like the Nosferatu do. As for combat, the Gangrel tend to do just fine, although against other combat-inclined vampires, they do better in the wilderness, one-on-one.



Serpentis is just a cheesy combat discipline. Aggravated damage plus reduced soak (and the ability to soak Agg). Serpentis 1 is pretty damn useful against mortals too. The snake form is kinda dumb (besides the combat applications) and the removing your heart thing is also kinda pointless.

I've seen people use Serpentis in LARP to go into snake form and get into (or out of) some tight places - actually, that's very useful.

Also - excuse me? Removing your heart is also kinda pointless? Hi, I just made it harder to make myself frenzy AND staking me doesn't work anymore?? Staking is a VERY big deal for any vampire. It is one of the primary ways that hunters deal with vampires (faith and fire/firepower) being the other two. In addition, you CAN use it on another vampire. Great way to make a (weaker) vampire your servant - even if they are already Blood Bound to someone.

J.Gellert
2010-06-05, 11:17 AM
Serpentis is awesome, even if simply for all the common symbolism that (modern) vampires and snakes share.

Chen
2010-06-05, 01:55 PM
Also - excuse me? Removing your heart is also kinda pointless? Hi, I just made it harder to make myself frenzy AND staking me doesn't work anymore?? Staking is a VERY big deal for any vampire. It is one of the primary ways that hunters deal with vampires (faith and fire/firepower) being the other two. In addition, you CAN use it on another vampire. Great way to make a (weaker) vampire your servant - even if they are already Blood Bound to someone.

Unless you have some way to make the staking easier its a fairly poor combat tactic. You need 3 damage at what, difficulty 9 to hit I believe? Anyone who can do that much damage and is trying to kill a vampire might as well just do regular damage to the vampire and put it into Torpor. I had forgotten about the Frenzy difficulty part, but I still find it hard to accept that the 5th dot in Serpentis is so narrowly useful.

Umael
2010-06-06, 07:49 AM
Unless you have some way to make the staking easier its a fairly poor combat tactic. You need 3 damage at what, difficulty 9 to hit I believe? Anyone who can do that much damage and is trying to kill a vampire might as well just do regular damage to the vampire and put it into Torpor. I had forgotten about the Frenzy difficulty part, but I still find it hard to accept that the 5th dot in Serpentis is so narrowly useful.

1) Vampire: The Dark Ages requires 5 successes to hit (standard difficulty). No mention of damage, so assume 1 after soak. With a die pool of 9 or 10, that's not that unbelievable to do.

2) VtM 2nd edition requires 3 successes to hit (standard difficulty) and 3 levels of damage after soak. Again, not that difficult.

3) VtM 2nd edition revised says 3 successes to hit (difficulty 9) and 3 levels of damage after soak - not 3 damage at difficulty 9. While this is difficult, it is not impossible. However...

3a) Who said it had to be done in combat? As a combat maneuver, yes, using VtM 2nd edition revised, that's going to be tough. But what if it was an ambush? Attacking out of Obfuscate, crossbow bolt or hurled wooden javelin from a good hiding place, even bright lights temporarily blinding the Settite... a good Storyteller recognizes the difference between combat and ambush. Besides, there is always the possibility of a trap (a vampire's lair booby-trapped like Jigsaw himself made it - with vampires in mind, of course), or even a bit of subterfuge (put the stake in the place where your heart should be - let them think you're staked, let them get close enough).

4) All of the above three point out that the exact system you use depends on the Storyteller. A number of Storytellers I know will not stop the game in the middle of combat to look up the exact mechanics of staking. They will make a quick ruling and move on.

Semidi
2010-06-06, 09:41 AM
Ugh... you're asking me to choose?

After much debate and deliberation I have to go with Giovanni. I just love their style way too much. Perversity, depravity, cruelty, and insanity under the veil of respectability. Oh and I just love the style of Necromancy more than any other type of magic in the game, it just seems to have the best flavor what with the material requirements (hand of a murderer, a possession of a wraith's fetter, and so on). Awesome.

Runners up are:
Tzimisce
Brujah
Toreador Antitribu
Tremere

Deadmeat.GW
2010-06-06, 10:28 AM
Gangrel for me, the whole Animalism is seriously underestimated.

Travel around during the day to scout things out, make someone frenzy (oops, no more dominate, presence, thaumaturgy, necromancy, ...)...

You can be very creative with Animalism, cal swarms of rats, pigeons, ...

Especially if you make the equivalent of a pack of ghouled rats...
Potence 1 on rats...munch-munch through that wall into the safe house of the enemy? It is not going to take very long and you could make a large amount of ghouled rats for a very short while as a surprise for most enemies.

Protean...
Rank1!

No other Vampires seem to notice they are walking around in the DARK and therefore would be unable to use most of their vaunted abilities...

Being pretty much blind is a lot more of an issue then most people are assuming and a lot of GM/ST forgot that in a lot of places there is no streetlights, electric lighting or such.

I fight you as a Gangrel, I retreat to the darkness, you get penalties, I do not and if I wear say sunglasses my eyes are not even visible...
Also, get a small item with two red leds on a stick which you put on a frame to be about the same spacing as normal eyes...
You would not believe the amount of people that 'aim for the Gangrel's red eyes'...and then get chewed up as they go for the leds...
Aura perception could stop this trick but not many people use aura perception during the combat.

Another trick, if you have a lot of courage (or if you have fire-eating skill) is to light yourself up with small strips of oil cloths whch are on fire and go in grapples. You are not likely to take damage, your opponent is likely to take damage and you will be scaring the bejeezus out of the average vampire when you walk around for all intents and purposes while burning...

But...as said you need to be a lot smarter then most people tend to play Gangrel (and they are survivors first and foremost so I would say they would be using these kind of tricks) and GM/ST tend to forget that an awfull lot of places are going to very shady and dark or even pitch dark which gives penalties to all those people without Protean 1.
Or even simply completely locks down their powers as they cannot target anything.

Shezagorath
2010-06-17, 02:44 PM
For a pro player who is self motivated the Tremere are the only real choice ;)

And anyone who thinks that Thaum is a xp hole maybe you bought Spirit Thaum instead of Lure of Flames. "On no a Brujah/Gangrel with Celerity/Wolf Claws!?! . . . lookit him burn!!" :p Takes you a turn to activate those and by that time you'll be using your celerity turns to stop, drop and roll all the way home or your bag lady nails to pry your new tan off.

And lets not forget blood potency (the ultimate way to prep before a fight) theft of vitae (the ultimate way to start a fight), and Cauldren of Blood (the ultimate way to end a fight).

Making humans blow themselves away with thier own guns with Mind over Matter or dissapearing in a Fog and nailing people with lightning with Weather Control is handy to if you want to be flashy. Granted the other canon paths are probably just "handy" but the prime ones are the most lethal in the game.

Think of the Warlocks as an evil mensa group that can blow people to bits with thier mind and work in teams :belkar:

And if I'm bumping a dead thread my apologies. I just got here so I don't know what passes for an unforgivable revival though a mod beating me with sticks will be taken as a clue XD

Gnaeus
2010-06-17, 04:05 PM
For a pro player who is self motivated the Tremere are the only real choice ;)

And anyone who thinks that Thaum is a xp hole maybe you bought Spirit Thaum instead of Lure of Flames. "On no a Brujah/Gangrel with Celerity/Wolf Claws!?! . . . lookit him burn!!" :p Takes you a turn to activate those and by that time you'll be using your celerity turns to stop, drop and roll all the way home or your bag lady nails to pry your new tan off.

And lets not forget blood potency (the ultimate way to prep before a fight) theft of vitae (the ultimate way to start a fight), and Cauldren of Blood (the ultimate way to end a fight).

While I agree with your conclusion, I strongly disagree with your tactical analysis. Subtle Tremere are effective. Flashy Tremere who think they are playing D&D are a liability to the clan.

Speaking as someone who played a Lord in the national LARP for years, If I could cut Lure of Flames out of thaum alltogether I would have in an instant. It caused us way more problems than it ever solved.

TripperdeCleric
2010-06-17, 04:10 PM
I would have to say ravnos. I like the trickery and the general rp they perform.


Baali would come in second. But thats just because of the awesomesauce they present.

Petrankov
2010-06-17, 04:52 PM
Lasombra was always my favorite clan. I feel that their combination of disciplines can allow you to do sooo much.

Nosferatu would be second followed by the Giovanni in third.

Animalism is not getting much love on this thread but if used properly can be an absolute nightmare for enemies (or for players who don't pay attention to what all those little birdies and rats are doing in the background).

Shezagorath
2010-06-21, 07:41 AM
Nah I gave the wrong impression Gnaeus. I don't mean that it's a good idea to run around clearly blowing people up - that would lead to a much abbreviated unlife span from your prince ;)

I just meant to point out that if we're talking about sheer power Thaum has my money. And it's equally good at subtle, but that's more the route of the rituals.

After Tremere for me would be the Tzimizie and then the Lasombra because I've got to agree with Petrankov about thier spooky powers . . . just awesome. I actually disallow Ravnos in my games they're always a headache and thier illusion powers are waaaaaaaaay to easy to abuse despite my previous attempts to re-write thier systems.

Werekat
2010-06-21, 10:40 AM
While I agree with your conclusion, I strongly disagree with your tactical analysis. Subtle Tremere are effective. Flashy Tremere who think they are playing D&D are a liability to the clan.

Speaking as someone who played a Lord in the national LARP for years, If I could cut Lure of Flames out of thaum alltogether I would have in an instant. It caused us way more problems than it ever solved.

Gnaeus, well said. Curiosity from an overseas gamer\ST: does Lord-status not allow a degree of control over who gains LoF in your sector of the Pyramid and who doesn't?

[ST thought]Might have made an interesting plot point for the lower-runged Tremere if their Lord detested this particular Path. *scribbles notes*[/ST thought]

Back on topic: two favorites, the Tremere and the Kiasyd respectively. In LARPs I prefer to play Tremere (if with a good Chantry, though I've been lucky in this respect). I'm not nearly good enough at makeup to correctly portray a LARP Kiasyd anyway. In tabletop, Kiasyd are far easier on the ST than Tremere (for the same reason - involved Chantry game, usually), and a lot of fun.