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Mongoose87
2010-06-02, 12:36 PM
Can natural weapons be used to make trip attacks? Could a dragon make five trips, using its two claws, two wings and its bite? Could a Monk/Dragon (WTF, I know), make even more, using flurry of blows and iteratives?

gallagher
2010-06-02, 12:38 PM
"Trip
You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

Making a Trip Attack
Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks."

i'd say yes

Greenish
2010-06-02, 12:58 PM
Natural Weapons aren't trip weapons. The dragon could make Trip attempts with it's unarmed attacks (as many as it has iteratives) and then use all of it's natural weapons to deal damage (at -5 to hit).

[Edit]: A dragon monk could try tripping with Flurry attacks and then do the natural attacks as normal.

Mongoose87
2010-06-02, 04:30 PM
What about Pathfinder?


Trip

You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.

This seems to imply that the weapon is irrelevant.

Greenish
2010-06-02, 04:40 PM
What about Pathfinder?
This seems to imply that the weapon is irrelevant.But the "Trip" special quality on a weapon specifically allows you to make Trip attacks with the weapon, which implies that you can't do it with other weapons.

strider24seven
2010-06-02, 04:42 PM
Edited: Boci below is correct

Boci
2010-06-02, 04:42 PM
But the "Trip" special quality on a weapon specifically allows you to make Trip attacks with the weapon, which implies that you can't do it with other weapons.

Isn't that just for attacks of opertunity?

Greenish
2010-06-02, 04:52 PM
Isn't that just for attacks of opertunity?What, why? Is there something different between AoOs and other attack actions in PF? I don't know the system so well.

Runestar
2010-06-02, 05:21 PM
I would say yes. A natural weapon is as unarmed a melee attack as you can get. :smalltongue:

Greenish
2010-06-02, 05:21 PM
I would say yes. A natural weapon is as unarmed a melee attack as you can get. :smalltongue:Except by the rules, of course.

Admiral Squish
2010-06-02, 05:23 PM
I'd make a DM call that says you could make a trip with a claw, bite, tail, tentacle, slam... I'm not sure about wing, that might be awkward.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-02, 05:41 PM
Can natural weapons be used to make trip attacks?
Not unless the natural weapon happens to be unarmed strike. Unarmed strike is a natural weapon that's specifically allowed for tripping, but other natural weapons generally aren't. (Some tentacles and tails are, IIRC, but each one needs to have the trip capability specifically called out in the creature writeup.)

All the standard Monster Manual dragons lack trip capability.

Il_Vec
2010-06-02, 05:46 PM
All the standard Monster Manual dragons lack trip capability.
While not wielding trip weapons. If your dragon/monk can somehow wield a guisarm, it becomes relevant...

Runestar
2010-06-02, 05:48 PM
Found it. Rules compendium page 145.:smallsmile:


Most creatures make trip attacks normally despite having natural weapons. No creature has an advantage when tripping using its natural weapons unless its description says otherwise.

So you make a melee touch attack, but don't provoke an AoO since you are always considered armed with your natural weapons.

Thus, dragons would make for scary trippers, between their reach, multiple natural weapons and str+size all but making this auto-success. Throw in improved trip for more fun. :smallbiggrin:

Greenish
2010-06-02, 06:01 PM
So you make a melee touch attack, but don't provoke an AoO since you are always considered armed with your natural weapons. You do provoke an AoO if you don't have Imp. Trip, or so I read the "[n]o creature has an advantage when tripping using its natural weapons unless its description says otherwise" part.

Runestar
2010-06-02, 06:08 PM
If a monk doesn't provoke for tripping with his unarmed strikes because IUS makes him armed, I feel natural weapons should be subject to the same benefit as well. :smalltongue:

Mongoose87
2010-06-02, 10:12 PM
Found it. Rules compendium page 145.:smallsmile:



So you make a melee touch attack, but don't provoke an AoO since you are always considered armed with your natural weapons.

Thus, dragons would make for scary trippers, between their reach, multiple natural weapons and str+size all but making this auto-success. Throw in improved trip for more fun. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you! Now, I just need to get a game together to unleash this on some unsuspecting players.