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Os1ris09
2010-06-02, 02:16 PM
I was wondering if there are any other good spells to DMM Persist OTHER THAN divine power.

I don't know if you can persist vigor,lesser or anything else that doesn't have a personal range.

Eldariel
2010-06-02, 02:28 PM
I was wondering if there are any other good spells to DMM Persist OTHER THAN divine power.

I don't know if you can persist vigor,lesser or anything else that doesn't have a personal range.

Umm, yeah. About half a dozen. And tricks to do something truly broken to Persist Touch-range spells and such, but I'm not getting into that. Quick list of fairly good Persistables:
Divine Favor [PHB]
Mass Lesser Vigor [SC]
Recitation [SC]
Righteous Wrath of the Faithful [SC]
Draconic Polymorph [Drac]
Holy Star [SC]
Surge of Fortune [CC]
Eyes of the Oracle [DraM]
Righteous Might [PHB]
Conviction [SC]
Shapechange [PHB]

As a few examples. Mostly, buffs, extra action granters, dischargables and basically anything personal that you can use later and doesn't last hours/level is a candidate for DMM: Persist

Marriclay
2010-06-02, 02:36 PM
if you can swing it, take the generic spellcaster class from UA. get it as a divine caster and take undead turning as your class ability and bam! access to all sorcerer, wizard, cleric, and druid spells for your persisting pleasure

arguskos
2010-06-02, 02:39 PM
If you can swing it, Footsteps of the Divine has it's moments. :smallamused:

Really, anything you can feed into DMM: Persist is typically worth it. I mean, Persist is damn good, and nothing was balanced with it in mind, so you can just go to town with anything and have a good time.

Boci
2010-06-02, 02:41 PM
I don't know if you can persist vigor,lesser or anything else that doesn't have a personal range.

The requirement is a fixed range, so touch spells are fair game. And so are many others with occular spell abuse, but you might not want to go there.

OMG PONIES
2010-06-02, 03:13 PM
Cue 10-page discussion about how "touch" may or may not be "fixed range,"* and how even WotC Customer Service didn't seem to have a straight answer.

*I believe that it's not.

Wings of Peace
2010-06-02, 03:19 PM
Unfettered Heroism :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2010-06-02, 03:24 PM
The requirement is a fixed range, so touch spells are fair game.

Touch varies based on size (touch = your natural range, which depends on your size) so it's not a fixed range. Also, allowing touch spells makes for all manners of ridiculous brokenness so it's best avoided. Google Twice-Betrayer of Shar if you want to know precisely what I'm talking about.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-02, 03:39 PM
There's an interesting Personal range option in Player's Guide to Faerûn called Holy Star, available as a 7th level spell only to those with the Initiate of Mystra feat. It's got 3 effects, 2 of which you'd use quite a lot:

Protection gives a +10 circumstance bonus to AC.
Fire Bolt provides a nice blast effect:

ranged touch attack within 90', so you can full attack with it
1d6/2 caster levels (max 10d6)
fire damage, but you can always use Energy Substitution

It's a free action to switch back and forth, so you can boost your AC whenever it's not your turn and still make full blast attacks on your turn.
Persist this and make any Warlocks nearby fall over themselves in jealous fits. :smallamused:

gallagher
2010-06-02, 03:55 PM
find a way to persist glibness

Boci
2010-06-02, 03:57 PM
find a way to persist glibness

Occular spell should work.

Eldariel
2010-06-02, 03:59 PM
There's an interesting Personal range option in Player's Guide to Faerûn called Holy Star, available as a 7th level spell only to those with the Initiate of Mystra feat. It's got 3 effects, 2 of which you'd use quite a lot:

Protection gives a +10 circumstance bonus to AC.
Fire Bolt provides a nice blast effect:

ranged touch attack within 90', so you can full attack with it
1d6/2 caster levels (max 10d6)
fire damage, but you can always use Energy Substitution

It's a free action to switch back and forth, so you can boost your AC whenever it's not your turn and still make full blast attacks on your turn.
Persist this and make any Warlocks nearby fall over themselves in jealous fits. :smallamused:

Player's Guide to Faerun? My friend, it's been printed even in Spell Compendium :smallamused:

Flickerdart
2010-06-02, 04:17 PM
find a way to persist glibness
That's a bit out of reach of a DMM Cleric, but not a Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8595585)... :smallwink:

Curmudgeon
2010-06-02, 04:29 PM
Player's Guide to Faerun? My friend, it's been printed even in Spell Compendium :smallamused:
That's the Cleric 7 spell, with only +6 AC from Protection. The Initiate of Mystra 7 spell gives +10 AC. (It also lasts longer if you don't happen to be persisting it.)

Eldariel
2010-06-02, 04:47 PM
That's the Cleric 7 spell, with only +6 AC from Protection. The Initiate of Mystra 7 spell gives +10 AC. (It also lasts longer if you don't happen to be persisting it.)

Far as I understand, the newer printing takes precedence due to the same name and appearing in a newer book and as such, the option of using the PGtF version does not exist in a game with SC. Of course, the difference is quite minimal; +6 or +10, you'll have plenty either way.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-02, 04:51 PM
Far as I understand, the newer printing takes precedence due to the same name and appearing in a newer book and as such, the option of using the PGtF version does not exist in a game with SC.
That would indeed be the case if it were labeled as a straight replacement. The PGtF spell is a specific benefit of the Initiate of Mystra feat, however, and thus you can't substitute the newer spell for Initiates. Regular Clerics do get a pretty nifty spell without needing to spend a feat, though.

strider24seven
2010-06-02, 04:52 PM
If you can swing it, Footsteps of the Divine has it's moments. :smallamused:

But that was errated to be a "discharge" spell and thus is not for for Persist.

My favorites though are things like Wraithstrike, so you can Shock Trooper things into oblivion with impunity!

Os1ris09
2010-06-02, 08:00 PM
Unfettered Heroism :smallsmile:

Where is this spell?

@ ALL: Thanks guys for helping me find spells that work because I didn't really understand the context of fixed range. :smallbiggrin:

arguskos
2010-06-02, 08:05 PM
But that was errated to be a "discharge" spell and thus is not for for Persist.
I said "if you can swing it". Not everyone checks errata. You and I know it's not technically viable, but not everyone does, and if you use it with DMM and don't abuse it through Tornado Throw and whatnot, it's pretty useful.

@Curmudgeon: You made a mistake with the Holy Star recommendation. You cannot use Energy Substitution on it, as it doesn't have an Energy subtype of any kind. You're stuck with Fire damage, sorry. :smalltongue: Also, I personally agree with Eldarial, as they are clearly intended to be the same spell, just shifted to the cleric list since the Initiate lists were not reprinted. It's debatable, but try to sell a DM on "well, there's two spells called Holy Star, see...." :smalltongue:

Private-Prinny
2010-06-02, 08:09 PM
With the right domain, Time Stop. 8 hours of rest and full healing, all in one round.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-02, 08:23 PM
With the right domain, Time Stop. 8 hours of rest and full healing, all in one round.
That strikes me as pretty spectacularly wasteful. You'd use up a 9th level spell and 7 turn undead attempts for 24 subjective hours to spend as you like (with restrictions) to rest up and heal. You could do both (effectively, since it negates fatigue and exhaustion) with a Heal spell: 3 levels lower. Since Clerical spells are only replenished at a specific time of day, regardless of rest, you wouldn't benefit in that way.

Tar Palantir
2010-06-02, 08:24 PM
Use Divine Magician from Complete Mage to trade a domain for a selection of wiz/sorc spells, and pick up Friendly Fire from Exemplars of Evil. You are now immune to all ranged attacks (including spells), and can redirect ranged spells fired at you at another target within 60ft.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-02, 08:27 PM
Since Clerical spells are only replenished at a specific time of day, regardless of rest, you wouldn't benefit in that way.

I forgot about that little detail. I'm used to playing arcane casters.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-02, 08:34 PM
Use Divine Magician from Complete Mage to trade a domain for a selection of wiz/sorc spells, and pick up Friendly Fire from Exemplars of Evil. You are now immune to all ranged attacks (including spells), and can redirect ranged spells fired at you at another target within 60ft.
It's only 30', but that's a really clever idea. With a DM who'd allow access to a Nightstick or two I'd gladly add that to my Holy Star blasty Cleric. Spend your turn blasting enemies within 30', then spend the enemies' turns sending their own ranged attacks back at them!

tiercel
2010-06-02, 08:41 PM
It's just kind of a pet peeve of mine, DMM: Persistent or anything else that lets you Persist spells that would ordinarily require Epic-level slots, before you're anywhere near being that Epic. High-level spellcasting doesn't already "win D&D" enough?

Add ways to make Persist-able spells that can't normally be Persisted... and well, it's kind of a headache really. It's not enough for a cleric to be better at melee than pretty much any melee class, when the cleric has time to buff, but *all day*?

Sorry, just ranting.


That strikes me as pretty spectacularly wasteful.

For just healing, maybe. But having 24 hours of subjective time while all the rest of existence is frozen seems just a tiny bit exploitable, even with the limitations of time stop.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-02, 08:49 PM
For just healing, maybe. But having 24 hours of subjective time while all the rest of existence is frozen seems just a tiny bit exploitable, even with the limitations of time stop.

The healing is good, BFC out the ass is good, but the main thing I was thinking of (i.e. refreshing spell slots, restoring dispelled buffs, etc.) wouldn't work for a Cleric, so it does seem like a bit of a waste in hindsight.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-02, 09:07 PM
The healing is good, BFC out the ass is good, but the main thing I was thinking of (i.e. refreshing spell slots, restoring dispelled buffs, etc.) wouldn't work for a Cleric, so it does seem like a bit of a waste in hindsight.
I could see this as possibly working, if you've got the right resources. A Staff of Earth and Stone, and the Magic domain to let a Cleric use it, will allow quite a lot of battlefield control. The only problem: 24 hours might not be enough time if you need several castings of Move Earth to elevate walls around all your enemies.
The area to be affected determines the casting time. For every 150-foot square (up to 10 feet deep), casting takes 10 minutes. The maximum area, 750 feet by 750 feet, takes 4 hours and 10 minutes to move. After all, you've also got to take time to get boulders on top of those new walls, ready to push in the pit traps you built around your foes.

nolispe
2010-06-02, 09:14 PM
That strikes me as pretty spectacularly wasteful. You'd use up a 9th level spell and 7 turn undead attempts for 24 subjective hours to spend as you like (with restrictions) to rest up and heal. You could do both (effectively, since it negates fatigue and exhaustion) with a Heal spell: 3 levels lower. Since Clerical spells are only replenished at a specific time of day, regardless of rest, you wouldn't benefit in that way.

But you can buff yourself to invunerablility, to say nothing of summoning stuff.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-02, 09:26 PM
But you can buff yourself to invunerablility, to say nothing of summoning stuff.
Where are you going to get those buff spells from, though? If it's the nth battle of the day and you're low on spells prepared, having 24 hours to cast your last 5 spells is hardly useful. If some other party member has a wand or scroll you'd like to borrow you're out of luck; Time Stop forbids moving those things. For that matter, you've probably got time to walk back to town and visit the magic shop -- except you can only affect an "item that is not in another creature’s possession", and the shop owners possess the contents of their stores. Time Stop isn't merely limited to attended items, but disallows stealing owned but unattended items as well.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-02, 09:31 PM
Where are you going to get those buff spells from, though? If it's the nth battle of the day and you're low on spells prepared, having 24 hours to cast your last 5 spells is hardly useful. If some other party member has a wand or scroll you'd like to borrow you're out of luck; Time Stop forbids moving those things.If a Persistent Time Stop let the Cleric recover spells, that would actually be a very good strategy. Alas, it is not.
For that matter, you've probably got time to walk back to town and visit the magic shop -- except you can only affect an "item that is not in another creature’s possession", and the shop owners possess the contents of their stores. Time Stop isn't merely limited to attended items, but disallows stealing owned but unattended items as well.That's just semantics. Besides, if your players have access to 9th level spells and haven't shattered the WBL into pieces already, then you probably have nothing to worry about.

Thurbane
2010-06-02, 09:38 PM
if you can swing it, take the generic spellcaster class from UA. get it as a divine caster and take undead turning as your class ability and bam! access to all sorcerer, wizard, cleric, and druid spells for your persisting pleasure
If you can't get the generic caster approved, Archivist is another option. Just PrC into a class that grants turning or rebuking. Archivist gets the ability to scribe ANY divine spell they can get their hands on into their prayer book (Paladin, Ranger, Druid, Adept, Domains etc etc), so you'll have access to a metric ton of spells not normally available to Clerics.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 10:01 PM
That's a bit out of reach of a DMM Cleric, but not a Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8595585)... :smallwink:

Greater Anyspell; once you have Glibness prepared, DMM: Persist it.

Also, Archivist + Sacred Exorcist. (Glibness is available to Archivists via Divine Bard.)

Flickerdart
2010-06-02, 10:09 PM
Greater Anyspell; once you have Glibness prepared, DMM: Persist it.

Also, Archivist + Sacred Exorcist. (Glibness is available to Archivists via Divine Bard.)
Yeah, but that's a much higher-level trick that's of dubious usefulness for all that effort.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 10:13 PM
Yeah, but that's a much higher-level trick that's of dubious usefulness for all that effort.

It's no higher than Persisting Glibness would be normally.
And presumably, if you're going to be lying/avoiding detection all day-every day, it would be worth it.

Flickerdart
2010-06-02, 10:33 PM
It's no higher than Persisting Glibness would be normally.
And presumably, if you're going to be lying/avoiding detection all day-every day, it would be worth it.
I don't think Clerics get Greater Anyspell at 7th level.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 10:38 PM
I don't think Clerics get Greater Anyspell at 7th level.

What I meant is that you need 9th-level slots to Persist Glibness normally - whereas GA is 6th-level.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-02, 10:38 PM
I don't think Clerics get Greater Anyspell at 7th level.
No, that comes in at 6th level with the Spell domain.

Lord of Syntax
2010-06-02, 10:53 PM
Archivist + Divine Bard Scrolls = Persistant Glibness.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 11:03 PM
Archivist + Divine Bard Scrolls = Persistant Glibness.

Again, you would need either 9th-level slots or Turn Undead + DMM: Persist for this.

Of course, the Archivist has Greater Anyspell too, but still needs Turn Undead. (I posted one way for him to get it above.)

Flickerdart
2010-06-02, 11:25 PM
What I meant is that you need 9th-level slots to Persist Glibness normally - whereas GA is 6th-level.
Yes, but Persisting it normally is a waste of everyone's time.


No, that comes in at 6th level with the Spell domain.
Clerics don't get new spell levels at 6th level.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 11:33 PM
Yes, but Persisting it normally is a waste of everyone's time.

As the alternative to GA is not having it at all, I don't think they'll mind if they really want it. (And again - why would your cleric be using Glibness if he didn't?)

Flickerdart
2010-06-02, 11:57 PM
As the alternative to GA is not having it at all, I don't think they'll mind if they really want it. (And again - why would your cleric be using Glibness if he didn't?)
I'm not talking about the Cleric, I'm talking about MS-Persisting it on a Bard, which is why I linked what I did. It's not just there for my own amusement. Yes, the Cleric can do it, if he really tries, but so late in the game that it's hardly worth it.

Mikeavelli
2010-06-02, 11:58 PM
Clerics don't get new spell levels at 6th level.

You go down the Staircase to a different level of the dungeon and get hit by a vampire to get level drained, so you cast a 4th level restoration spell so you get back to a high enough character level to turn undead, and incinerate the remains with a sunburst and a high caster level.

This threads needs context-sensitive reading, and the D&D writers need a thesaurus.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 11:58 PM
I never said your way was wrong, just that a cleric can do it too if he wants.

And whether its worth it or not really depends on the campaign, no? Glibness is the poster-child of political campaign spells.

AstralFire
2010-06-03, 12:09 AM
I want to find a good use for Persistent Time Stop. That amuses me.

Wonton
2010-06-03, 12:30 AM
ranged touch attack within 90', so you can full attack with it


Does this really work? If I have a spell that provides multiple ranged (or melee) touch attacks, and a BAB of at least +6/+1, can I really do two attacks in a round as a full attack?

Os1ris09
2010-06-03, 12:45 AM
Use Divine Magician from Complete Mage to trade a domain for a selection of wiz/sorc spells, and pick up Friendly Fire from Exemplars of Evil. You are now immune to all ranged attacks (including spells), and can redirect ranged spells fired at you at another target within 60ft.

Can someone point to me where I can find this suggestion?

Also can anyone answer the previous question:

Where is Unfettered Heroism located?

tyckspoon
2010-06-03, 12:50 AM
Does this really work? If I have a spell that provides multiple ranged (or melee) touch attacks, and a BAB of at least +6/+1, can I really do two attacks in a round as a full attack?

Depends on the spell. If it specifies a particular action to use, then you have to abide by what it says, and you only get to full attack with it if it says it's an attack action. If it says nothing, you can probably full attack with it until you run of charges; touch spells can usually be used this way. Rules-wise, those work pretty much the same way punching people with a spiked gauntlet does.

Holy Star, in particular.. I would say no. You aren't personally making an attack with it- you're designating a behavior for the spell, which does not empower you yourself to lash things with fire. It'll fire once every round you set it to 'burn my enemies'.

Gnaritas
2010-06-03, 03:26 AM
I have a character that chose Greater Dimension Door as a Persistent Spell. Powerful, no, fun, yes.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-03, 05:05 AM
Holy Star, in particular.. I would say no. You aren't personally making an attack with it- you're designating a behavior for the spell, which does not empower you yourself to lash things with fire. It'll fire once every round you set it to 'burn my enemies'.
Reading the spell carefully always helps.
Fire Bolt: A holy star lashes out with a beam of energy as a ranged touch attack against a creature (you choose the target) up to 90 feet away (no range increment). This attack uses your attack bonus ... There's no "setting it to 'burn my enemies" in the spell description, because Holy Star has no capability of taking independent action in the manner of a summoned creature; you've got to choose the target each time you use the Fire Bolt. It doesn't say "makes an attack at your base attack bonus", nor does it say "as a standard action".
An attack roll represents your attempt to strike your opponent. Your attack roll is 1d20 + your attack bonus with the type of attack you’re using. If the result equals or exceeds the target’s AC, you hit and deal damage.
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some other reason, you must use a full-round action to be able to make your additional attacks. Multiple attacks are more simply described in Rules of the Game: Ranged Attacks (Part One) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070710a) under "The Language of Ranged Attacks":
Iterative Attack: One or more extra attacks a character gains when using the full attack action by virtue of a high base attack bonus; see pages 22 and 143 in the Player's Handbook. Without any special mention of this Fire Bolt attack taking a standard action (as a Warlock's eldritch blast is specified), or being limited to an attack using solely the caster's base attack bonus, it follows the standard rules for attacks. If the caster's BAB is high enough to allow multiple attacks using the full attack action, Fire Bolt can also be triggered on each iterative attack.

Let's enumerate the possibilities here:

1 attack/round: Holy Star operates once each round (independently apart from you choosing the target as a free action), and you can also take your own full round of actions. (No support for that in the spell's language.)
many attacks/round: Since "you can designate which function to activate as a free action on your turn", you could trigger a Fire Bolt as many times as your DM allows you to use a free action. And still cast a spell or make your own independent attacks.
attacks using your AB: You use Holy Star the way you'd use any other attack, which means you use your own standard or full-round action. You don't take independent actions while Holy Star operates.