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MiniMoose
2010-06-02, 10:39 PM
So, planning a new character. I am planning on Changeling for the race,

Monk 6/Warshaper 4/Tattooed Monk 10.

My biggest concerns are with legality and wording on warshaper.

1) Morphic weapons in the warshaper, does that allow me to increase my unarmed damage by one size?

2) In the description of warshaper, it doesn't mention needing to be in altered form for any class abilities to be used. However, in the sample they give they all say "when in animal form." I guess it doesn't matter since as a changeling I can be in altered form indefintley, but I have always wondered about the wording.

3) I picked tattooed monk because I couldn't really find any other good PrC that increases monk abilities. Are there any better suggestions?

4) I am considering vow of poverty. Pretty much since it seems really powerful with monk. However, to compensate for the missing 4 levels of monk I really want a monks belt (which obviously I can't have). Is Poverty worth it or no?

Any other general hints/suggestions are welcome :smallbiggrin:

noiadodh
2010-06-02, 10:45 PM
too much monk.

now seriously, monk is a 2 level long class...

MiniMoose
2010-06-02, 10:50 PM
too much monk.

now seriously, monk is a 2 level long class...

Really? I need something to qualify for Warshaper, and by getting to fifth in monk it reduces my flurry of blows penalty by 1, and I figure why not just take the sixth level instead of finding something for a 1 level dip before warshaper.

Marriclay
2010-06-02, 10:54 PM
1) Yes. if you are in a shape other than your own, that is. so, essentially, every form you'll be taking other than your natural one you can improve your natural weapons and unarmed strike

2) bove the weapon and armor proficiency section it tells you you need to be in a different form to use the morphic abilities. which is all of them.

3) Fist of Zuoken, which would require psionic ability, but a feat or two can do that for you.

4) VoP is underpowered. an amulet of mighty fists, a monks belt, a ring of deflection, and few items to help with the environment you're in, and you've got most of what it does anyway, and you'll probably still have cash left over. I personally think it's a bad choice mechanically, but it opens a lot of roleplay options

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 10:58 PM
Tattooed Monk 10 is a waste - it gives you nothing at all (you get your last tattoo at 9.) Getting all 5 tattoos is nice if you have tattoos that depend on your total number, but is not at all vital.

Other good noncaster Monk PrCs:

Fist of the Forest (CC): Con to AC, Ghost Touch punches, and some rather annoying fluff that can hopefully be handwaved. 3 levels.

Shou Disciple (UE): Full BAB, advances fist die and AC (via dodge bonuses, which stack), grants MWP, LAP and the ability to flurry with martial weapons. 5 levels.

Monk of the Enabled Hand (DrC): Advances the gamut (fist, flurry, speed and AC). Lets you turn your punches into touch attacks, disarm easily (your fists count as Large wepaons), AoO enemies that attack you, and slap enemies around the battlefield. Also grants ki strike (Lawful). 5 levels.

Shiba Protector (OA): Wis to attack and damage. Advances nothing else monk-ish, so dip out after 1 level.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-06-02, 11:04 PM
I know it's a tired response, but you might want to look at Unarmed Swordsage instead of Monk. Something like Swordsage4/Warblade1/Warshaper4/Bloodclaw Master5/Swordsage+5 would give you a hardy, effective combatant with lots of options.

MiniMoose
2010-06-02, 11:05 PM
Shou Disciple (UE): Full BAB, advances fist die and AC (via dodge bonuses, which stack), grants MWP, LAP and the ability to flurry with martial weapons. 5 levels.

Monk of the Enabled Hand (DrC): Advances the gamut (fist, flurry, speed and AC). Lets you turn your punches into touch attacks, disarm easily (your fists count as Large wepaons), AoO enemies that attack you, and slap enemies around the battlefield. Also grants ki strike (Lawful). 5 levels.

Shiba Protector (OA): Wis to attack and damage. Advances nothing else monk-ish, so dip out after 1 level.

What do these book names stand for? Im still kinda an acronym noob.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 11:07 PM
What do these book names stand for? Im still kinda an acronym noob.

The sticky at the top of the forum can help with that :smallsmile:

In the meantime:

UE = Unapproachable East
DrC = Dragon Compendium
OA = Oriental Adventures
CC = Complete Champion

gallagher
2010-06-02, 11:13 PM
take away 1 level of monk, and one level of tattood monk. you get your last tattoo at level 9

Keld Denar
2010-06-02, 11:13 PM
Tashalatora? That or Unarmed Swordsage.

Tashalatora is loads of fun for hulking up and beating the tar out of someone. You know whats better than effective size increases? REAL size increases! RAWR!

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 11:17 PM
Depending on the tattoos, you don't even need all 5. Say you have Chameleon, Crane, and Falcon. You get:

- Disease Immunity
- Poison Immunity
- Fear Immunity
- Aging Immunity
- Alter Self 9 hours/day. (3 hrs x 3)

That comes at Tattooed Monk 5, freeing up 5 levels for another PrC (like Shou Disciple.)

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-02, 11:40 PM
Monk-2/Psychic Warrior-4/Warshaper-4/Shou Disciple-4/Fist of the Forest-2/Psychic Warrior-4.

If your DM gives Multiclassing Penalties, then the Diverse Background Feat (Races of Destiny) is a must. Because Changelings are, by RAW, of human decent, they qualify for the feat.

Monk Bonus Feats should be Martial Training: Psychic Warrior & Tashalantora.
Psychic Warrior gives two Fighter Bonus Feats, which can be used for pre-reqs for Shou Disciple. Shou Disciple gives two Bonus Feats, one of which can be Power Attack.
Tashalatora in this build gives Monk Unarmed combat (damage & Flurry) as well as AC of Monk-10. Fist of the Forest increases die by one step (two if you take level 3) & Shou Disciple increases die by two steps (three if you take level 5). This gives you the max (by table) unarmed damage of 2d10, which Warshaper increases to 4d8 (by table).
Monk-9 is a breakpoint for Greater Flurry (no penalty for flurry) & Psychic Warrior-8 is another bonus feat.
If you take the web suppliment ACF for Psychic Warrior & Practiced Manifester, you can get Expansion to increase your actual physical size. At Large size, you'd be doing 6d8.

Fist of the Forest requires: Feat: Great Fortitude, Feat: Power Attack & some cross-class skills, 4 ranks in each.
3rd level of FotF gives +1 BAB, unarmed damage increase (by table) & Scent. Might be worth it, might not.

Shou Disciple requires: Feat: Dodge, Feat: Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike & some skills.
5th level of Shou Disciple gives +1 BAB, unarmed damage increase (by table) & flurry with all martial weapons. Might be worth it, might not.

My copy of OA must be different, because I couldn't find the Shiba Protector.

Monk of the Enabled Hand requires: Feat: Combat Expertise, Feat: Deflect Arrows & Feat: Improved Disarm.

Obviously, depending on what level you're starting the game, you might want to change up when you take what levels of the various prestige classes.

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 11:45 PM
My copy of OA must be different, because I couldn't find the Shiba Protector.

I missed it at first too; it's not listed with the other PrCs. The "Empire of Rokugan" section describes each of clans in Rokugan, and each major clan has an associated PrC.

Shiba Protector is the PrC of the Phoenix Clan. (pg. 222)

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-02, 11:49 PM
I missed it at first too; it's not listed with the other PrCs. The "Empire of Rokugan" section describes each of clans in Rokugan, and each major clan has an associated PrC.

Shiba Protector is the PrC of the Phoenix Clan. (pg. 222)

Ah... not applicable to the character in question.


To qualify to become a Shiba protector, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Human (Phoenix).

Assuming (Phoenix) indicates clan affiliation and not "bursts into fire and is reborn".

Optimystik
2010-06-02, 11:55 PM
Ah... not applicable to the character in question.

Why not? Fluff is fluff.

The same restrictions could technically apply to Shou Disciple, and don't get me started on Fist of the Forest's ridiculousness.

Makiru
2010-06-03, 12:09 AM
Personally, if you're dead set on the Monk/Warshaper thing, see if you can take the Wild Monk variant out of Dragon #324/crystalkeep and be a human instead of a changeling.

Wild Monk gives you wild shape at 5th level like a druid (and Resist Nature's Lure, but that's not the point) in exchange for slow fall, abundant step, empty body, quivering palm, speed increases, and the three monk bonus feats. The wild shape will qualify you for Warshaper, and if you take Aberration Blood and Aberrant Wild Shape, you can turn into a Thoon Elder Brain (eventually) and wreck people with Flurried tentacles and Overmind Blast (assuming you take Assume Su. Ability for it)

Honestly, no DM in his/her right mind would ever approve that, but it is one of the stupidest things you could technically do with a straight monk.:smalltongue:

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-03, 01:08 AM
Wildshape is weak for Warshaper compared to Changeling. A Changeling with 4 Warshaper levels is immune to Crits/Sneak, has Fast Healing & all other specials all the time... compared to "only in Wildshape".

Wildshape is a trap when it comes to Warshaper.

Edit: Shou Disciple just says you have to come from a specific area... Shiba Protector specificly says "Race: Human".

As for Fist of the Forest... just because you have to live in the wild doesn't mean that (unlike the sample character) you can't have magic gear, decent clothes, etc.

Il_Vec
2010-06-03, 03:34 AM
1) Morphic weapons in the warshaper, does that allow me to increase my unarmed damage by one size?


No, because the bigger dice only applies to growing bites and claws. You can create new natural weapons of normal size, or grow your existing claws/bite. Since claw and unarmed strike are different things, that doesn't work.

The Cat Goddess
2010-06-03, 03:44 AM
No, because the bigger dice only applies to growing bites and claws. You can create new natural weapons of normal size, or grow your existing claws/bite. Since claw and unarmed strike are different things, that doesn't work.

Read Monk Class Description again.

Also, read "Improved Natural Attack" Feat (or whatever the exact name is). It specifically says it works with Monk's Unarmed Attack.

Note that these feats/abilities would not work with a normal class that just took Improved Unarmed Strike. Only those classes like Monk (BattleDancer, Chaos Monk, Unarmed Swordsage) that share the Monk's special Unarmed Attack rules gain these benefits.

Eldariel
2010-06-03, 06:54 AM
Wildshape is weak for Warshaper compared to Changeling. A Changeling with 4 Warshaper levels is immune to Crits/Sneak, has Fast Healing & all other specials all the time... compared to "only in Wildshape".

Wildshape is a trap when it comes to Warshaper.

Considering you can spend all your time in Wildshape with level 8 Wildshaping, and Wildshape forms tend to be vastly superior to Humanoid forms in terms of...everything (you can even speak in them with MoMF), I'm not buying that.


Read Monk Class Description again.

Also, read "Improved Natural Attack" Feat (or whatever the exact name is). It specifically says it works with Monk's Unarmed Attack.

Note that these feats/abilities would not work with a normal class that just took Improved Unarmed Strike. Only those classes like Monk (BattleDancer, Chaos Monk, Unarmed Swordsage) that share the Monk's special Unarmed Attack rules gain these benefits.

That's inaccurate. That was an earlier FAQ ruling, but as of now, UA Strike is considered a Natural Weapon for INA. Which, of course, doesn't really matter since you need scaling dice for it to be any good. But there you go.

Optimystik
2010-06-03, 07:49 AM
Edit: Shou Disciple just says you have to come from a specific area... Shiba Protector specificly says "Race: Human".

While I missed that the OP specifically wants to be a Changeling... That's just standard Rokugan racism; there's no mechanical reason why it has to be human. It's not like an Atavist having to be Kalashtar or Inspired for the Quori spirit class features.

And your post made it sound like the Phoenix Clan bit was the problem, due to your "bursts into fire and is reborn" statement. That is pure fluff, and thus easily dismissed.


As for Fist of the Forest... just because you have to live in the wild doesn't mean that (unlike the sample character) you can't have magic gear, decent clothes, etc.

No, you just can't buy food or sleep inside unless forced.