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Salbazier
2010-06-03, 01:56 AM
Say, if someone wants to play a blind character, what is the best way to do it?

Zaq
2010-06-03, 01:57 AM
This comes up fairly often. Do you want to not be able to get any kind of equivalent of sight and still do okay, or do you want to mitigate the effects of blindness and find some kind of alternative (i.e. tremorsense)?

Salbazier
2010-06-03, 02:05 AM
Hmm, playing blind character with blindsight/tremorsense kinda defeat the point (unless it's Daredevil like character). The idea I had in mind is like a person who lost sight after some accident/major wound/soemthing like that. So, the former I guess.

panaikhan
2010-06-03, 02:15 AM
For a blind character, blind-fighting is a must (obviously).
Without magical assistance, they will have to have someone (or something) keep an eye on them.

It IS possible to play almost any character as blind. The favorite is the stereotypical blind monk, but I once played a blind sorceror - concentrating spells that did not need LOS. His familiar kinda helped mitigate the more mundane (i.e. non-game mechanic) effects of blindness.

Hendel
2010-06-03, 02:41 AM
I have recently made up a blind character and here are some of the issues with a blind character.

The blind-fight feat is great but according to the rules it does not solve one of your biggest problems. You will need to discuss this with your DM.

Blind-Fight:
SRD
"An invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible. The invisible attacker’s bonuses do still apply for ranged attacks, however.
You take only half the usual penalty to speed for being unable to see. Darkness and poor visibility in general reduces your speed to three-quarters normal, instead of one-half."

Blinded Condition
SRD
"The character cannot see. He takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them."

So if you were blinded with the Blind-Fight feat, you would be able to move 3/4 speed, take the -4 penalty on Search checks and Strength and Dexterity based skill checks, automatically fail reading and Spot checks, and everyone has total concealment to you so you would have a 50% miss chance. Now you would get the opportunity to role a second miss chance because you have the Blind-Fight feat.

The problem comes in the wording about your AC. Blind-Fight allows you to retain your Dexterity bonus to your armor class and invisible opponents do not get a +2 bonus to hit you. Blinded says you loose your Dexterity bonus to AC and you take a -2 penalty to AC. I could see the not losing Dexterity to AC being neutralized by the feat, the problem is in the +2 to hit versus -2 to AC. Really it is the same thing, but where you apply it is different. If they would have said that all creatures get a +2 to hit blinded creatures then it would really be the same thing.

If it were me, I would take the last line of the Blinded condition ("Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them") to mean that if you took the Blind-Fight feat, you have overcome most of the drawbacks and will get your Dexterity to AC, no -2 to AC, and all the other features of Blind-Fight.

That being said, you will want to get other feats such as Combat Awareness, Devil's Sight, etc or a magic item such as Blindfold of True Darkness or a class feature like a Scout gets at level 20. There are also powers and maneuvers that can get you there depending on what is allowed. Blindsense is okay and Tremorsense is fine, but Blindsight is what you will need.

I made a human Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 3 that is going to go into Psionic Fist (Fist of Zuoken in EPH) and he is blind. We had 9000gp to spend as 5th level characters according to the DMG so I took a Blindfold of True Darkness (9000gp) and a quarterstaff (free!!) as my starting equipment. So far he has been great and it is in an Underdark campaign where every one else are Drow. I can see just fine at least out to 30 feet. I also max out my Listen and my Wisdom is obviously great as well so I can hear things as my "Spot check."

There are several ways you can go, but get the whole Blind-Fight thing worked out with your DM ahead of time. He ought to let it cover your needs, after all being immune to glammers and gaze attacks does not out weigh the overall negative effects of being blinded. To me it is a great role-play aspect of the character. Also review the rules under Invisibility for Listen checks and such.

Another_Poet
2010-06-03, 04:35 AM
Voila! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19906846/The_Blind_PCs_Association?pg=1)

c'est un voila ne pas! O ho!

Amphetryon
2010-06-03, 04:39 AM
Be a Psion; take Synaesthesia. Now, your colors taste like music. :smallbiggrin:

Another_Poet
2010-06-03, 04:43 AM
Be a Psion; take Synaesthesia. Now, your colors taste like music. :smallbiggrin:

Ah, music. My favourite flavour of smell. I like to wear it in my gloves.

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-03, 04:44 AM
Hmm, playing blind character with blindsight/tremorsense kinda defeat the point (unless it's Daredevil like character). The idea I had in mind is like a person who lost sight after some accident/major wound/soemthing like that. So, the former I guess.

While cool, it's really not feasible to play such a character in D&D without effectively eliminating the penalties of being blind (even with blingfighting). If you make a character who is effective while blind, you could have fluffed the blindness ability without wasting mechanical options. If you make a character who is not as effective while blind, you are assigning arbitrary penalties for the purposes of fluff.

Furthermore, in a world with regenerate, it makes even less sense.

I was considering playing such a character, but only after I saw the Blindfold of True Darkness in the Magic Item Compendium which grants Blindsight 30' for a mere 9,000 gold. Being a blindfold, it of course negates normal vision while worn.

Amphetryon's Psion suggestion makes the most sense, and such a character could easily explain in backstory that he did not gain such abilities until learning to focus his mind after losing his sight.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-03, 05:25 AM
Why do they want to play blind? Is it an attempt at creating an überflaw, like an advanced version of Murky-Eyed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm#murkyEyed), to garner feats? If you get two feats for this, and spend them on Blind-Fight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#blindFight) and Blindsight, 5-Ft. Radius (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#blindsight5FtRadius), I guess you'll have accomplished a boost to what you can do within 5' at the expense of everything past that distance.

Salbazier
2010-06-03, 05:25 AM
Thank for the response:smallsmile:


Voila! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19906846/The_Blind_PCs_Association?pg=1)

c'est un voila ne pas! O ho!

That is really an amusing thread :smallbiggrin:

@Amphyterion

Not familiar with Psionics, let me check that.

@Irreverent Fool

Well, I personally do not mind taking penalties in the sake of RP (as long not totally crippling, it is not that different in taking sub-optimal choice when building character). I think the penalties are central to playing such character. If I just fluff it.... I dunno. Daredevil and Zatoichi are cool, sure, but totally negating the penalties, feel.. err, not right.

But, yeah, you're right. Regenarate kinda destroy this character concept.

Salbazier
2010-06-03, 05:27 AM
Why do they want to play blind? Is it an attempt at creating an überflaw, like an advanced version of Murky-Eyed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm#murkyEyed), to garner feats? If you get two feats for this, and spend them on Blind-Fight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#blindFight) and Blindsight, 5-Ft. Radius (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#blindsight5FtRadius), I guess you'll have accomplished a boost to what you can do within 5' at the expense of everything past that distance.

NOOO!!:smallmad:

I want to RP it. If want to get bonus feats, I'll just ask for flaw!!:smallannoyed:

banjo1985
2010-06-03, 05:31 AM
I played a blind sorcerer once, with the double whammy of being elderly too. Great RP potential, limiting in game terms. His crow familiar was the main way he found his way around, the crow whispered in his ear what was happening and did all manner of helpful things for the poor guy. Playing a blind character is quite different and an interesting experience, but how do-able it is in-game depends on the amount of poetic licence the GM will allow.

onthetown
2010-06-03, 10:01 AM
Mostly same as above; I played a blind wizard whose familiar was a cat. The cat would tell the wizard where to go or would walk alongside him and tug at his robes for direction. In a really crowded city, another party member who was a close friend of said wizard and had known him for years would guide him by the arm. His magic staff was like a walking stick, too.

The obvious problems are that your character can get lost and separated very easily in a crowded area (leading to some comedic effect if you latch on to some poor, random commoner and keep talking to them like you were the other character), and battle becomes difficult. The wizard tended to have a good selection of touch spells in case an enemy tried to take advantage of his not moving around much, and apart from that the cat would tell him where to cast.

A blind cleric is probably a bit more standard for the story aspect and is easier to play, since they can stand at the back and heal and most of their spells only harm enemies (as far as I know). You still might want to somehow invest in a familiar or cohort no matter what class you're playing. I guess a druid gets animal companion and they can just stand at the back and heal, but I'm fairly certain their spells are a little destructive for somebody who can't see where they're aiming. Which would be where the animal companion comes in.

You really just need to ensure that you have several somebodies around who can help you in battle. I didn't mention the melee classes because it's terrifying to think of a blind fighter swinging a sword anywhere near another party member. :smalltongue:

And... I didn't play the wizard because I wanted to challenge myself, I played him because I thought it would be fun and interesting and fresh. I imagine the OP is thinking the same about their new blind character. You don't necessarily have to want to try to play faulted characters to prove anything, sometimes it's just fun to see how it'll turn out and they can be interesting characters.

Optimystik
2010-06-03, 10:19 AM
Be a Psion; take Synaesthesia. Now, your colors taste like music. :smallbiggrin:

Psions can also use Touchsight, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) which is actually very flavorful for a blind character.


NOOO!!:smallmad:

I want to RP it. If want to get bonus feats, I'll just ask for flaw!!:smallannoyed:

Was it necessary to bite his head off? :smallconfused:

Tavar
2010-06-03, 11:01 AM
There is one class that actually can function as intended. Well, make that two classes, but the second would leave you useless for most of the time. A Dragonfire Adept only needs to be able to narrow down where a foe is to the 5ft square, as breath weapons ignore concealment. The other class is the Dragon Shaman, but it's breath weapon is on a timer, and is generally lackluster. Other options include becoming a Dragonborne(their breath weapon is also on a timer, though using it in addition to the Adept can be useful).

In any case, you'll want to pump your listen skill(there's even a draconic feat that does that). Remember that as long as you can touch something, you can target it with spells that require such things.

Greenish
2010-06-03, 11:06 AM
NOOO!!:smallmad:

I want to RP it. If want to get bonus feats, I'll just ask for flaw!!:smallannoyed:Yeah, who would ever RP their flaws, they're only there for free feats! :smallamused:

G3N3R3L GHOST
2010-06-03, 11:31 AM
Perhaps if you will not be doing the lions share of the fighting you can use others to do it for you. Perhaps something into Mindbender? Eternal Charm some hulking brute use your spell casting to buff him up and I am sure your DM would let you play as those creatures during combat and you could use your own character to Feel his way around towns for RP purposes. Just a thought. I actually had a hexblade/warlock into mindbender who was a mute. Worked out great. Just take practiced spellcaster and you are good to go for prereqs and let er rip from there.

Salbazier
2010-06-03, 11:36 AM
Was it necessary to bite his head off? :smallconfused:

I'm sorry, I overreacted there. I did not mean to say nobody roleplay flaw either, sorry.

Irreverent Fool
2010-06-03, 12:33 PM
Well, I personally do not mind taking penalties in the sake of RP (as long not totally crippling, it is not that different in taking sub-optimal choice when building character). I think the penalties are central to playing such character. If I just fluff it.... I dunno. Daredevil and Zatoichi are cool, sure, but totally negating the penalties, feel.. err, not right.

I understand that (heck, I once played a character who took more than two levels of fighter) but the existing options to turn the flaw into something playable pretty much make the flaw irrelevant in the first place. Crunch doesn't need to exactly line up with fluff. I don't think the rules and mechanics in this (or other popular systems) support what you're looking for here.


Psions can also use Touchsight, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/touchsight.htm) which is actually very flavorful for a blind character.

Case-in-point. This also gives more weight to the blind Psion option.

Salbazier
2010-06-03, 12:50 PM
I understand that (heck, I once played a character who took more than two levels of fighter) but the existing options to turn the flaw into something playable pretty much make the flaw irrelevant in the first place. Crunch doesn't need to exactly line up with fluff. I don't think the rules and mechanics in this (or other popular systems) support what you're looking for here.



Well, we can improvise with rules. :smallwink: Anyway, I got your point.




Case-in-point. This also gives more weight to the blind Psion option.

Hmmm, yes. This looks interesting. I'll study some psionics, then.

Again, thanks for all the advice:smallsmile:

Machiavellian
2010-06-03, 12:56 PM
I played a Blind Hexblade who's familiar could allow him to "see", at least through the eyes of his familiar. He had no eyes (thank you, Vecna) and wanted to take revenge on him. As a hexblade, I guess his curse backfired?

Optimystik
2010-06-03, 01:16 PM
A Psicrystal also can "see" for you, and relay what it perceives telepathically. Dimness/Darkness cannot fool it, though illusions (including invisibility) can. But of course, that's where your Touchsight comes in.

Zaq
2010-06-03, 04:04 PM
There is one class that actually can function as intended. Well, make that two classes, but the second would leave you useless for most of the time. A Dragonfire Adept only needs to be able to narrow down where a foe is to the 5ft square 30 foot cone, as breath weapons ignore concealment. The other class is the Dragon Shaman, but it's breath weapon is on a timer, and is generally lackluster. Other options include becoming a Dragonborne(their breath weapon is also on a timer, though using it in addition to the Adept can be useful).

In any case, you'll want to pump your listen skill(there's even a draconic feat that does that). Remember that as long as you can touch something, you can target it with spells that require such things.

Fixed that for you.

Fouredged Sword
2010-06-03, 04:18 PM
If you can start up to level 5 pf shadow sun ninja it would be funny. You fight horidly... then the lights go out. Then you rock, but nobody can see what you did. Then the lights come back on and the party goes looking for the person who could have beaten the foes, for it couldn't have been you.

demidracolich
2010-06-03, 04:25 PM
A friend of mine once made a character that was a blind warlock who was also a prophet. He managed to get the dm to give him 60ft blindsight in exchange for less invocations.

Hendel
2010-06-03, 06:04 PM
I played a blind sorcerer once, with the double whammy of being elderly too. Great RP potential, limiting in game terms. His crow familiar was the main way he found his way around, the crow whispered in his ear what was happening and did all manner of helpful things for the poor guy. Playing a blind character is quite different and an interesting experience, but how do-able it is in-game depends on the amount of poetic licence the GM will allow.

So how does it work for targeted spells if you can't see the target? I know someone could roughly tell you where to drop an area effect but it seems harder with the targeted spells and/or the rays and orbs. Can the scry on familiar power work in this case?

Does the psion's Sight Link work like scrying or can the psion just see through the psicrystal's sighted ability?

Lev
2010-06-03, 06:24 PM
Or, yaknow, you could just be blind as a roleplaying factor and actually be blind.

Gnosko
2010-06-03, 06:27 PM
So how does it work for targeted spells if you can't see the target? I know someone could roughly tell you where to drop an area effect but it seems harder with the targeted spells and/or the rays and orbs. Can the scry on familiar power work in this case?

Does the psion's Sight Link work like scrying or can the psion just see through the psicrystal's sighted ability?

for targeted spells you would first have to know/guess which five foot square they are in and then you would still suffer the 50% miss chance just like shooting a bow or swinging a sword.

Edit: or did you mean like magic missle target? I don't think you could.

Hendel
2010-06-03, 06:30 PM
for targeted spells you would first have to know/guess which five foot square they are in and then you would still suffer the 50% miss chance just like shooting a bow or swinging a sword.

I have no issue with that for orbs and rays, but on "Targeted" spells like Charm Person wouldn't you need Line of Sight? Does being blind effectively negate Line of Sight?

Dracons
2010-06-03, 07:00 PM
Or, yaknow, you could just be blind as a roleplaying factor and actually be blind.

Goes with the whole stormwind fallacy doesn't?

If your blind, wouldn't you learn and take every single possible advantage you could? Which would be feats like Blind-Fighting, or psion ability to super enhanced his senses.

You could roleplay your blind, sure, but to actively ignore or avoid any possible way to fix it, or grant you some kind of defense due to being blind is just stupid.

Lev
2010-06-03, 07:24 PM
Goes with the whole stormwind fallacy doesn't?

If your blind, wouldn't you learn and take every single possible advantage you could? Which would be feats like Blind-Fighting, or psion ability to super enhanced his senses.

You could roleplay your blind, sure, but to actively ignore or avoid any possible way to fix it, or grant you some kind of defense due to being blind is just stupid.
Hero: A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life.

Courage: Courage, also known as bravery, fortitude, will, and intrepidity, is the ability to confront fear, pain, risk/danger, uncertainty, or intimidation. "Physical courage" is courage in the face of physical pain, hardship, death, or threat of death, while "moral courage" is the ability to act rightly in the face of popular opposition, shame, scandal, or discouragement.

Strength is weakness, weakness is strength.
But, there's an interest shift when you go from RL to fantasy, just depends who you are IRL I guess.

AstralFire
2010-06-03, 07:37 PM
I think you're missing the point that there's a difference between a character learning to deal with a disability to do their best and a character negating their disability.

Dracons
2010-06-03, 07:40 PM
It still applies to characters too Lev.


Are you really stating that it's really horrible that if a character is blind, that they would seek out ways to overcome that blindness?


But if you want to go to a real life examples, fine, why don't you go to all the blind people and take away their sticks and walking dogs. They're not allowed to have that according to you.

God forbid a character that is blind, does something to make it less of a weakness.

Heroes do brave things and help people out. But a hero can only do so much before they're killed. A smarter hero will look past their ego, and ya know, get a walking stick or find the secret master to learn how to feel vibrations to overcome said weakness, rather then just accepting the fact they are blind and not do a damn thing about it.

AstralFire
2010-06-03, 07:42 PM
Right. It's heroic to suffer those things because they are the only or best way to get something done. It's just stupidity or a fetish if it's wholly unnecessary.

Drakevarg
2010-06-03, 07:47 PM
But if you want to go to a real life examples, fine, why don't you go to all the blind people and take away their sticks and walking dogs. They're not allowed to have that according to you.

There's a huge difference between "can take a walk without falling down stairs or being hit by a car" and "can kill several armed guards with his bare hands."

Wonton
2010-06-03, 08:04 PM
I once wanted to play an Avenging Executioner who'd been blinded as a child by X and sought revenge on them, as per the AE class. Then I realized that since I'd have to spend 9,000 gp just to be somewhat viable, and most AE abilities only work on creatures with fewer HD than you, this character would make a better NPC villain than a PC.

Dracons
2010-06-03, 08:07 PM
There's a huge difference between "can take a walk without falling down stairs or being hit by a car" and "can kill several armed guards with his bare hands."

True, but both took advantages of what resources were there to take advantage of.

Ask any blind person if they are willing to take a week or so excerise to gain a type of sight.


I doubt few, if any will go "Oh that's ok. I'm blind. I can't take that away"

Drakevarg
2010-06-03, 08:11 PM
Ask any blind person if they are willing to take a week or so excerise to gain a type of sight.

Where are you getting the "week or so" from? If feats only took a week to obtain, any adventurer worth his salt would have them all by the time he got out the front door.

Dracons
2010-06-03, 08:15 PM
Some DM's require a time frame of /training/ to get their feats at levels. Its listed as an optional rule, and I've dealt with two different DM's that enforced that, along with paying them.


Point still stands:

Ask any blind person, if they had a chance to do some training to learn a new way of seeing, they would likely do it.

That's why braille is taught. Just because their blind, does not mean they are just going to take that if there is an option of gaining vision.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-03, 08:16 PM
Where are you getting the "week or so" from? If feats only took a week to obtain, any adventurer worth his salt would have them all by the time he got out the front door.

Well, math-wise...

4 expected encounters of ECL per day. 13.33 encounters of ECL level a character, so 10 days (a little less than 2 weeks) and 40 encounters will raise a 3rd level character to 6th level, and obtain him a new feat.

Drakevarg
2010-06-03, 08:23 PM
Well, math-wise...

4 expected encounters of ECL per day. 13.33 encounters of ECL level a character, so 10 days (a little less than 2 weeks) and 40 encounters will raise a 3rd level character to 6th level, and obtain him a new feat.

By that logic, it should only take a few months to reach epic levels, which begs the question why there's such a thing as mortal soldiers, since any career soldier is going to be able to kill gods by the time he gets his first leave of absence.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-03, 08:26 PM
By that logic, it should only take a few months to reach epic levels, which begs the question why there's such a thing as mortal soldiers, since any career soldier is going to be able to kill gods by the time he gets his first leave of absence.

Attrition. As you gain levels, the odds of you surviving to gain your next level decreases, and the number of things you can kill for those proper-ECL encounters become few and far between. One reason why smart-minded adventurers hang out in groups, for protection and utility...the average career soldier, once he gets bored butchering orcs or goblins or ogres or trolls that attack his town every day, may find it hard to get that leave of absence for going on vacation to the Abyss.:smallbiggrin:

Drakevarg
2010-06-03, 08:32 PM
Attrition. As you gain levels, the odds of you surviving to gain your next level decreases,

Wouldn't that make it presumptuous to just say "oh, I need Blind-Fight. I guess I'll just go murder the **** out of some orcs for a week or two" then, given the lethal nature of that exercise?

Dracons
2010-06-03, 08:33 PM
By that logic, it should only take a few months to reach epic levels, which begs the question why there's such a thing as mortal soldiers, since any career soldier is going to be able to kill gods by the time he gets his first leave of absence.

Which can happen in some games.


Your highest level character. How long did it take to get that high in game? Not real life, IN game.


For some games, they wondering through dungeons for several weeks, assuming they only play once a week or so. But in game, maybe one or two days pass, but they come out two-three levels higher.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-03, 08:36 PM
Wouldn't that make it presumptuous to just say "oh, I need Blind-Fight. I guess I'll just go murder the **** out of some orcs for a week or two" then, given the lethal nature of that exercise?

Why yes, yes it would. Blind characters, frankly, are a horrible idea for any D&D game, because the ruleset isn't built to support such a character. Unless they take steps to mitigate their disability, even if it's just Blind-Fight, they're crippled for no benefit, and will likely, as mentioned, be killed early on in their career.

Boci
2010-06-03, 08:38 PM
Wouldn't that make it presumptuous to just say "oh, I need Blind-Fight. I guess I'll just go murder the **** out of some orcs for a week or two" then, given the lethal nature of that exercise?

"Oh, I need to learn how to cope with this crippling trait, I shall go and practise fighting techniques that help me overcome my weakness"
You could put that in the backstory.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-03, 08:39 PM
"Oh, I need to learn how to cope with this crippling trait, I shall go and practise fighting techniques that help me overcome my weakness"
You could put that in the backstory.

I.e., have it as your 1st level feat, the one that everyone starts with for free.

Boci
2010-06-03, 08:40 PM
Why yes, yes it would. Blind characters, frankly, are a horrible idea for any D&D game, because the ruleset isn't built to support such a character. Unless they take steps to mitigate their disability, even if it's just Blind-Fight, they're crippled for no benefit, and will likely, as mentioned, be killed early on in their career.

Not to mention there are RP implications. The player should technically leave the room each time the DM describes the setting, his interaction with NPCs will be limited, and it is going to be hard not to metagame during combat.


I.e., have it as your 1st level feat, the one that everyone starts with for free.

Or higher, if he got blinded at a later date during his adventuring career. (Assuming the game starts at a later level.)

Drakevarg
2010-06-03, 08:41 PM
"Oh, I need to learn how to cope with this crippling trait, I shall go and practise fighting techniques that help me overcome my weakness"
You could put that in the backstory.

That I can understand. I was debating the idea that obtaining Blind-Fight would only take about a week and a half of adventuring, and that this would be even an even remotely practical method for a blind person to use to overcome their blindness.

Boci
2010-06-03, 08:42 PM
That I can understand. I was debating the idea that obtaining Blind-Fight would only take about a week and a half of adventuring, and that this would be even an even remotely practical method for a blind person to use to overcome their blindness.

Well as Glyphstone pointed out, its possible, especially if he has some buddies to hold his hand whilst he is learning to fight without vision.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-03, 08:43 PM
That I can understand. I was debating the idea that obtaining Blind-Fight would only take about a week and a half of adventuring, and that this would be even an even remotely practical method for a blind person to use to overcome their blindness.

Well, yeah, that's ludicrously impractical for a solo warrior. Hence why smart adventurers, and thus long-lived adventurers, travel in packs; if he gets blinded, and assuming his group-mates are actual friends and not merciless sociopaths, they'll be able to cover his back for that week and a half as he gradually learns to compensate for his new weakness.

Runestar
2010-06-03, 08:47 PM
Or play a grimlock. :smalltongue:

graeylin
2010-06-03, 09:44 PM
Great debate, but having tried to both play and DM a blind character, i see it coming down to two things:

either the "blind" PC takes feats, magic, skills, etc. to effectively remove the true penalties of blindness, or

the player/DM tend to ignore the realities of being really blind in a world of moving forests, dungeons, etc..

Even with a cane, put a blind person in a warehouse with jutting pallets, stairs with no handrails, open holes in the floor, pits, loose rocks, moss/slick oil, low ceilings, etc., and they won't be moving at 30' a round. What is the movement speed of a blind PC? (really blind, not eyeless with magic compensation)? While they can move pretty well in surroundings they are familiar with, or in areas where things are typically standardized, things slow
down a LOT when you introduce them to random hazards in their environment.

For comparison, put yourself in the darkest cave you have ever been in. the kind where you can't see your hand when it touches your face.

Now, imagine three people who have infrared goggles are trying to kill you.

go. fight them. avoid them. Heck, try walking on the uneven surface full of water, shallow pools, drop off, stalactites, rocks, boulders, low overhangs, etc..

Blind? it's a cool idea, and i don't discourage it, but i really have to bend the rules of my games to allow players to try it.

Tavar
2010-06-03, 09:47 PM
I have no issue with that for orbs and rays, but on "Targeted" spells like Charm Person wouldn't you need Line of Sight? Does being blind effectively negate Line of Sight?

The entry on targets goes into this. Effectively, either you need something that completely replaces sight(touchsight, blindsight, etc) or you need to be able to touch the object/person.



Hero: A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life.

Courage: Courage, also known as bravery, fortitude, will, and intrepidity, is the ability to confront fear, pain, risk/danger, uncertainty, or intimidation. "Physical courage" is courage in the face of physical pain, hardship, death, or threat of death, while "moral courage" is the ability to act rightly in the face of popular opposition, shame, scandal, or discouragement.

Strength is weakness, weakness is strength.
But, there's an interest shift when you go from RL to fantasy, just depends who you are IRL I guess.
The problem with this is that unless you build the character to minimize the flaw, you're at best worthless to the group, and at worst a hindrance. And you're more likely to be the latter than the former, as you won't produce anything, and yet you'll take up valuable resources. If you look at literary inspirations, this largely holds true. The tales of blind Swordsman always point out how they have other abilities that effectively make them not blind. For magicians, they use magic to account for the flaw. Those that don't aren't adventurers. They're NPC's, giving out information or aid, but not actually doing the dangerous stuff.

Lev
2010-06-03, 11:09 PM
The problem with this is that unless you build the character to minimize the flaw, you're at best worthless to the group, and at worst a hindrance. And you're more likely to be the latter than the former, as you won't produce anything, and yet you'll take up valuable resources. If you look at literary inspirations, this largely holds true. The tales of blind Swordsman always point out how they have other abilities that effectively make them not blind. For magicians, they use magic to account for the flaw. Those that don't aren't adventurers. They're NPC's, giving out information or aid, but not actually doing the dangerous stuff.
Well, that def. depends on your players; but I'd wager that the majority of groups care way more about how powerful they are rather than how powerful the guy beside them is.

And if they do care especially, then maybe it's not the right scenario to be playing an in-depth character to begin with, maybe you should just go for a guy with a big sword and well chosen feats.

Also, if everyone could see and formulate the best option to solve all their problems we wouldn't have any problems in the world. That's kind of like saying to fat people "why don't you just take the nutrition feat?"

A DnD character is an adventurer, that's the only requirement, and I personally think having the weight of your situation multiplied just enhances the aspect of it being an adventure.

But again, yes, if your game consists of a network of tunnels filled with a band of 5 callous mercenaries looting dead ogres and dangerous trapped rooms for gold pieces, then yeah you might not want to play a blind guy.

AstralFire
2010-06-03, 11:14 PM
Okay, lots of people think Batman is great, right?

Batman depends heavily on Oracle, the wheelchair bound former Batgirl. She is an amazing resource to him, and he cares about her. He is not going to ask a wheelchair-bound woman to go infiltrate the evil lair with him, and would stop her most likely, regardless of how badass she is for someone with no legs. She's still well below basically any superhero now, even if she can smack around mooks with her crutches. There are so very many reasons that an adventurer would not want to take someone with them who can't pull their own weight, and it's not just about "I want more loots/easier fights."

Lev
2010-06-03, 11:18 PM
This forum seems to think that adventurers are superheroes.

AstralFire
2010-06-03, 11:21 PM
This forum seems to think that adventurers are superheroes.

You're dodging the point. It's not a matter of depth. If anything, callous people are most likely to not give a damn if their companion is blind. He can serve as a warm body until he dies.

Tavar
2010-06-03, 11:22 PM
And that doesn't get into the question of what abilities a blind person brings to the table. In Oracle's case, she's a computer wiz, and only her legs are disabled, so it's clear how she can be of help. How is a blind person in most games going to be any help at all, unless they specifically build the character to counter their disability?

Drakevarg
2010-06-03, 11:38 PM
And that doesn't get into the question of what abilities a blind person brings to the table. In Oracle's case, she's a computer wiz, and only her legs are disabled, so it's clear how she can be of help. How is a blind person in most games going to be any help at all, unless they specifically build the character to counter their disability?

Do so in a way that makes their blindness still undeniably crippling, yet enables them to kick ass through other means? For example, make a telepathic mage who uses only non-line-of-sight spells. Or just asks the group "which way are the bad guys?" and then drops an AoE in that direction.

Or on an alternative example, take Toph Bei Fong or the blind ogre from Goblins - both of them will absolutely demolish you in a physical confrontation, but both can be rendered helpless in the right situations. (For Toph, put her in the air, in the desert, in the water, or burn her feet, and she's completely blind. For the ogre, if he loses track of Yala he's just swinging wildly.)

Teron
2010-06-03, 11:41 PM
This forum seems to think that adventurers are superheroes.
No (well, yes, once they've accumulated a few levels, high skill bonuses, and piles of magic items, but that's beside the point), just competent. A blind man isn't fit for a job that involves fighting for his life on a daily basis, any more than a paraplegic man can be a firefighter. It just doesn't work, no matter how noble and brave he is.

I'll also point out that many of the magical means of mitigating blindness don't eliminate its role-playing potential. Being able to magically detect targets in battle and what not doesn't keep you from angsting over not knowing what your girlfriend looks like, or whatever floats your boat.

Lev
2010-06-03, 11:43 PM
And that doesn't get into the question of what abilities a blind person brings to the table. In Oracle's case, she's a computer wiz, and only her legs are disabled, so it's clear how she can be of help. How is a blind person in most games going to be any help at all, unless they specifically build the character to counter their disability?
From just core? Bard, Cleric.
Help with what? Killing kobolds and disarming traps? Escaping from a highly secured death camp? Forming a rebellion to take over a corrupt city?

Superheroes: There are bad guys, we gotta beat them up and wreck all their stuff.
Adventurers: Let's go on an adventure!


any more than a paraplegic man can be a firefighter.
That's funny, I'm training to be a fire fighter =]

Hague
2010-06-03, 11:59 PM
The Mindspy is a great PrC for this sort of thing. She can maintain Detect Thoughts as a free action with a concentration check, gets a circular area to use the ability (instead of a cone) This should negate the penalties from concealment and the hit bonus since the Mindspy knows where the enemy is and when it's going to attack, assuming she can read the thoughts of the attacker. She would still need blind-fight to deal with the denial of Dex bonus. Any DM would be willing to allow a Psion to use Psionic Detect Thoughts as the requirement as well as the Detect Thoughts spell. Though, Wilder might be a better choice with the Cha bonus aiding the Anticipate class feature.

Functionally, a 5th level Mindspy gets the ability to Detect surface thoughts immediately as the Detect Thoughts ability comes into effect, and if the enemy fails their will save to resist their thoughts being read, the Mindspy gets +5 to hit and +5 to Armor Class (if he has at least 20 charisma)

Now the description of Detect Thoughts doesn't say that you know where the minds you detect are, but it seems like you'd have some sense of the direction they are in. Your DM would have to adjudicate as necessary.

AstralFire
2010-06-04, 05:39 AM
From just core? Bard, Cleric.
Help with what? Killing kobolds and disarming traps? Escaping from a highly secured death camp? Forming a rebellion to take over a corrupt city?

Superheroes: There are bad guys, we gotta beat them up and wreck all their stuff.
Adventurers: Let's go on an adventure!


That's funny, I'm training to be a fire fighter =]

Disarming traps is hard when you are blind, unless you're being used to set them off one by one; there are very few things you can safely disengage by sound, touch and smell alone. If they are, you're dealing with an encounter that doesn't specifically challenge the person's handicap, which to you seems to mean they're not handicapped or have personal courage somehow.

Escaping from a death camp is actually a half-decent counter, but only because - essentially - everyone is completely forced into the situation. (And if you look at real accounts of such escapes, they often don't bring along handicapped people to increase their chances of survival and/or hope to come back for them later to leave them marginally more safe where they are at the moment.) Maintaining that kind of scenario is not standard for most roleplaying games of any system, and sooner or later, my adventurers would be urging for the first safe place to let their blind friend go unless the blind person has proven to be able to protect themselves in a life or death situation.

The last is quite doable when you are blind, depending on how it is done - but from an aspect that is more social than adventure, which means that you're dealing with an encounter that doesn't specifically challenge the person's handicap, which to you seems to mean they're not handicapped or have personal courage somehow.

Lev
2010-06-04, 05:52 AM
Disarming traps is hard when you are blind, unless you're being used to set them off one by one; there are very few things you can safely disengage by sound, touch and smell alone. If they are, you're dealing with an encounter that doesn't specifically challenge the person's handicap, which to you seems to mean they're not handicapped or have personal courage somehow.

Escaping from a death camp is actually a half-decent counter, but only because - essentially - everyone is completely forced into the situation. (And if you look at real accounts of such escapes, they often don't bring along handicapped people to increase their chances of survival and/or hope to come back for them later to leave them marginally more safe where they are at the moment.) Maintaining that kind of scenario is not standard for most roleplaying games of any system, and sooner or later, my adventurers would be urging for the first safe place to let their blind friend go unless the blind person has proven to be able to protect themselves in a life or death situation.

The last is quite doable when you are blind, depending on how it is done - but from an aspect that is more social than adventure, which means that you're dealing with an encounter that doesn't specifically challenge the person's handicap, which to you seems to mean they're not handicapped or have personal courage somehow.

Yes, I was giving a variable comparison, to show that some campaign styles work with the concept and some do not.
Thanks for your lengthy response though :smallsmile: