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View Full Version : [3.5] Challenge: one-level dips only?



Thieves
2010-06-03, 08:14 AM
Given that it would be a PC made only of one-level-dips, what combination would serve any of these?

a) the most effective, but without much cheese and brokenness,

b) the most versatile,

c) the most internally consistent and flavor-fitting?

PrCs included, fractional bonuses obviously counting, casters too but I dare you to give me something more than "Wizard of flavors A through Z to get full caster level" :smallwink:

Links appreciated, I think I saw something like that once but it's unfindable for me.

Boci
2010-06-03, 08:30 AM
Factotum 1 / Rogue 1 / Fighter 1 / Warblade (or crisader) 1 / Swordsage 1 / Binder 1 / Barbarian 1 / Cleric 1 / Warlock 1 / Dragonfire adept 1

Factotum gives you good skill points and all class skills. Rogue 1 gives you sneak attack, so take craven for a good damage boost. Fighter 1 gives you good BAB and a bonus feat, which is important since somesingle level dips can be made better by a feat. The martial adepts give some usefulish maneuvers and stances, but swordsage is the best due to thier large number of boosts which are useful at higher levels as well. I would recomend warblade as you're second choice for douse the flame and steel wind, just incase you need to move but cannot charge. Binder 1 with the feat improved binding gives you a lot of versatility with any 1st or 2nd level . Cleric will give you two domain powers, and you can choose some situationally useful spell and can use a wand of healing without UMD. Barbarian and extra rage will give you 3 rage attempts per day and pounce. Warlock and dragon fire adept gives you minor ranged and AoE capabilities and two 24 hour buffs or at will abilities.
Those are the best base classes I can think of. I'll come back once I've scaned some PrC.

Morph Bark
2010-06-03, 09:18 AM
Since it is only 1-level dips, I doubt it could get much broken anyway. Up to what level is this meant for? I presume level 20?

Factotum 1/Fighter 1/Rogue 1/Binder 1/Archivist 1/Wizard 1/Psion 1/Bard 1/Marshal 1/Dragon Shaman 1/Crusader 1/Warblade 1/Swordsage 1

Practiced Spellcaster is an obvious feat choice (and I suppose it might work for both Archivist and Wizard), plus of course Practiced Manifester. For Rogue I would take the Feat Rogue variant, so you can build up more feats for a nice build, rather than just stick with 1d6 Sneak Attack. In a build like this I doubt Sneak Attack will help much. Improved Binder is something for that Binder level of course, and Crusader/Warblade/Swordsage must come as the last three levels, for maximum effectiveness in getting high-level maneuvers.

PrCs can be thrown in in-between, but must come before the three initiator classes unless they are ToB PrCs. Chameleon might be nice for one if you're human. I presume this would end up being best used as a sort of skillmonkey build anyway--or otherwise a support character with low-level buffs. I put Archivist in there instead of Cleric or Druid to free up a level and still get more spells and for nice Int synergy with the Wizard and Psion, but if you got a level left, exchange Archivist for Cleric 1/Druid 1. Then see if you can get DMM if it is also useable on non-Cleric spells... (I'm not sure if that as per RAW works, though.)

Critical
2010-06-03, 09:24 AM
Race Orc, Feat Rogue 1/Barbarian 1/Binder 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Warlock 1/Fighter 1/Duskblade 1/Ranger 1(Solitary Hunting ACF)/Warrior 1/Fist of Hextor 1/Battle Trickster 1/Eye of Gruumsh 1/Frenzied Berserker 1/Orc Warlord 1/Lasher 1/Tribal Protector 1/Beast Heart Adept 1/Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 1.




...





I've created a monster! :smalleek:

Flickerdart
2010-06-03, 09:27 AM
Rogue/Psychic Rogue/Spellthief/Thug SA Fighter/Ninja/Assassin/Arcane Trickster/Unseen Seer/Invisible Blade/Swordsage gets you a modicum of spells and effectively +11d6 Sneak Attack with Assassin's Stance, making you better than a Rogue of that level who's only got +5d6 SA. After, keep taking dips in Prestige Classes that grant Sneak Attack dice.

Amphetryon
2010-06-03, 09:31 AM
CN Half-Elf.

Factotum 1/Totemist 1/Dread Necromancer 1/Incarnate 1/Half-Elf Paragon 1/Rogue 1/Human Paragon 1/Scout 1/Ranger 1/Swordsage 1/Binder 1/Druid 1/Ninja 1/Ronin 1/Warblade 1/Bloodclaw Master 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 1/Ardent 1/Dread Commando 1/Warshaper 1.

AmberVael
2010-06-03, 11:12 AM
I've got one.

Factotum/Human Paragon/Monk/Fighter/Wizard (Conjurer)/Ur-Priest/Divine Oracle/Sacred Fist/Paragnostic Apostle/Thaumaturgist/Contemplative/Ruathar/Mindbender/Abjurant Champion/Mystic Theurge/Geomancer/Master Specialist/Arachnomancer/Geometer/Vermin Lord

It's a hell of a mess, but you can qualify for all of those, with some precise feat timing and use. You end up with 9th level spells from Ur-Priest, along with a caster level of 17 (assuming you ignore Mystic Theurge adding more than 1) before adding in magic items (you need Practiced Spellcaster, but you have just enough feat slots to manage it, even before Flaws).

The flavor actually works out too, surprisingly.
Essentially, the character would be a knowledge obsessed spellcaster with heavy sway in the Underdark (particular among the Drow), as well as connections to fiendish entities (which ties in with the Drow again).
Being a bit paranoid (a good thing to be when you deal with fiends and drow) they also have an emphasis on self protection and mental strength, hence the Abjurant Champion, Monk, and Fighter levels.

In terms of versatility... 9th level divine spells, +13 BAB (which can easily be increased by spells, and maximized early on by choosing your levels at the right time), 3rd level arcane spells, plenty of skill points and skills to choose from, and a wide variety of spellcasting augmentations and little abilities to protect you (monk, abjurant champion).

I think it works.

Incidentally, sources are Dungeonscape (Factotum), SRD (Human Paragon) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#halfElfParagon), Complete Divine (Ur-Priest, Divine Oracle, Sacred Fist, Contemplative, Geomancer), Complete Champion (Paragnostic Apostle), Races of the Wild (Ruathar), Complete Arcane (Mindbender, Geometer), Complete Mage (Master Specialist, Abjurant Champion), Drow of the Underdark (Arachnomancer), and Book of Vile Deeds (Vermin Lord).

Thieves
2010-06-03, 11:44 AM
(any ideas welcome, not only 20th-levels)

Boci: looks fun!

Critical: an avatar of Orkishness, I presume? Not actually workable, is it? (I'm mainly asking because of the 'Warrior', which is... an NPC class?:smalleek:)

Flickerdart: A good SAer is good.

Amphetryon: Could you tell me what it does? Looks like some... morphing spell-supported undead ninja?

Vael: That's... intimidating, and certainly gets you a cookie. Looks like a perfect match for a madman high-priest BBEG!

Amphetryon
2010-06-03, 11:51 AM
morphing spell-supported undead ninjaDING DING! :smallbiggrin: Spell-supported undead ninja with 5-7d6 SA and pounce, skill synergies and mostly decent hit dice.

Draz74
2010-06-03, 12:01 PM
Since it is only 1-level dips, I doubt it could get much broken anyway.

Pun-Pun can be achieved at Level 1.

Ignoring that ... Diplomancer. An optimized Diplomancer starts off as a Bard 1/Binder 1/Marshal 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Telepath 1/Incarnate 1 (or something like that) anyway.

kestrel404
2010-06-03, 01:17 PM
Assuming that you've got a relatively lenient GM as well as fractional BAB and saves, the best spellcaster I can manage is:

CE Drow 32 point buy (10 str, 14 dex, 10 con, 20 int, 10 wis, 14 cha)
BAB FS RS WS Class: Build features
0 0 2 0 Rogue: 1d6 sneak attack, Feat: Spell Focus(Conjuration)
1 2 2 0 Fighter: Feat: Iron will
2 3 3 3 Conjurer: Feat:scribe scroll, Abrupt Jaunt (int mod)/day, Feat: Precocious Apprentice
3 3 3 3 Drow Paragon: +1 Wizard CL +1 int
3 3 4 4 Master Specialist: +1 Wizard CL, Feat: Skill Focus(Spellcraft)
4 4 4 4 Unseen Seer: +1 Wizard CL, 2d6 sneak attack, Feat: Combat Casting, LA Buyoff
4 4 4 5 Arachnomancer: +1 Wizard CL
5 5 5 5 Spellsword: +1 Wizard CL +1 int
6 5 5 6 Abjurant Champion: +1 Wizard CL, Feat: Enlarge Spell, LA Buyoff
7 6 5 6 Incantatrix: +1 Wizard CL, Feat: Cooperative Spellcasting
7 6 6 7 Mage of the Arcane Order: +1 Wizard CL
8 6 6 7 Arcane Trickster: +1 Wizard CL, Feat: Practiced Spellcaster(Wizard), +1 int
8 7 6 8 Arcane Devotee: +1 Wizard CL
9 7 7 8 Fatespinner: +1 Wizard CL
9 7 7 9 Mindbender: +1 Wizard CL, Feat: Spell Focus(Divination)
9 8 7 9 Deep Diviner: +1 Wizard CL
10 8 8 10 Wayfarer Guide: +1 Wizard CL
11 8 8 10 Archmage: +1 Wizard CL, Feat: magical aptitude
12 9 8 11 Wild Mage: +1 Wizard CL
12 9 9 11 Geometer: +1 Wizard CL

Final stats: Wizard 18 casting, with a caster level of 19+1d6, lots of wacky abilities, oddball feats skills. This build is relatively playable from 9th level+, after LA buyoff is finished and most of the necessary skill levels have been acquired, but it really hits its stride at 19th level with Archmage & Wild Mage.

Thieves
2010-06-03, 03:05 PM
Pun-Pun can be achieved at Level 1.

Time after time after time, I am still utterly surprised that the Playground doesn't get tired of the pun-pun joke. Don't you think it just go so far that it leaves even TO and 'brokenness' and just goes into pure rule abusal?

As a side question (but please keep the builds coming, I really appreciate!), do you think that there is a huge difference in potential when we have a character of only 1-level-dips as compared to when we have only 2-level / 3-level dips?

Draz74
2010-06-03, 04:33 PM
Time after time after time, I am still utterly surprised that the Playground doesn't get tired of the pun-pun joke. Don't you think it just go so far that it leaves even TO and 'brokenness' and just goes into pure rule abusal?

Believe me, I'm tired of it too. :smallannoyed: Why do you think I threw him a passing mention, then moved on immediately to something more interesting (if still abusive)?

If people want to stop getting the answer "Pun-Pun," then they have to stop asking questions for which "Pun-Pun" is, in fact, the objectively correct answer. Questions that start with "what is the most powerful possible ..." without any sane limitations on them.

Joke? Lightning Warrior is a joke. (And yes, I am surprised people aren't tired of it ... yet, it still makes me laugh too. :smallbiggrin:) Pun-Pun is, unfortunately, real TO. The upside is, at least his existence speeds all those no-limits "most powerful" questions to their final destination very quickly, instead of letting them get bogged down eternally in debates about whether Hulking Hurler vs. Illithid Savant is a more powerful game-breaking build. If you didn't hear about Pun-Pun so often, you'd be hearing about all those other stupid-broken builds more often instead. As long as people ask clueless questions, they're going to get useless answers.

EDIT: You're probably right that there wasn't a logical need to bring up Pun-Pun in this particular case. I was just bothered by the ignorance or incorrectness of the statement that "broken things can't happen with one level per class," and Pun-Pun was the first example that came to mind.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-03, 04:42 PM
Rogue/Psychic Rogue/Spellthief/Thug SA Fighter/Ninja/Assassin/Arcane Trickster/Unseen Seer/Invisible Blade/Swordsage gets you a modicum of spells and effectively +11d6 Sneak Attack with Assassin's Stance, making you better than a Rogue of that level who's only got +5d6 SA. After, keep taking dips in Prestige Classes that grant Sneak Attack dice.

Could be quite a mess the BAB thing (even if fractional BAB could help).

Darklord Xavez
2010-06-03, 04:43 PM
Believe me, I'm tired of it too. :smallannoyed: Why do you think I threw him a passing mention, then moved on immediately to something more interesting (if still abusive)?

If people want to stop getting the answer "Pun-Pun," then they have to stop asking questions for which "Pun-Pun" is, in fact, the objectively correct answer. Questions that start with "what is the most powerful possible ..." without any sane limitations on them.

Joke? Lightning Warrior is a joke. (And yes, I am surprised people aren't tired of it ... yet, it still makes me laugh too. :smallbiggrin:) Pun-Pun is, unfortunately, real TO. The upside is, at least his existence speeds all those no-limits "most powerful" questions to their final destination very quickly, instead of letting them get bogged down eternally in debates about whether Hulking Hurler vs. Illithid Savant is a more powerful game-breaking build. If you didn't hear about Pun-Pun so often, you'd be hearing about all those other stupid-broken builds more often instead. As long as people ask clueless questions, they're going to get useless answers.

Lightning Warrior?
-Xavez

Critical
2010-06-03, 04:44 PM
Yeah, the Warrior's NPC class, I just needed something with full BAB over there. If using fractional BAB, it can be skipped.

Thurbane
2010-06-03, 04:49 PM
Basically, grab as many full BAB classes as you can, then fill out no more than 4 other classes with non casters (Rogue, Factotum, Scout etc.). You'll get +16 BAB by the end, at least. Probably get full +20 if you start taking full BAB PrCs. Grab Ranger as your first level, for the skill points...grab Able Leaner (if you're Human) then take Factotum as your next level. At least that way you can max out the skills you want to.

Thieves
2010-06-03, 05:27 PM
@Draz: Fair enough.

And what's a Lightning Warrior?

@Critical: It serves the fluff great and I was just curious ;) Taking an NPC class seems like such an IYF for opt's ;d

@Thurbane: even someone as unskilled at building stuff as me sees that not taking a skillmonkey as your first class is just All Kinds Of Wrong! :smalleek:

Draz74
2010-06-03, 07:38 PM
@Draz: And what's a Lightning Warrior?
An old homebrew class from the WotC Forums. The original thread, tragically, has been deleted ... so if you never saw it, I'm not sure I can convey how or why it was so hilarious. :smallfrown:


@Thurbane: even someone as unskilled at building stuff as me sees that not taking a skillmonkey as your first class is just All Kinds Of Wrong! :smalleek:
Ranger is a skillmonkey in some ways.

JerichoPenumbra
2010-06-03, 07:58 PM
What are the sources of Orc Warlord, Lasher, Tribal Protector, Beast Heart Adept? And what exactly do they do?

Escheton
2010-06-03, 08:11 PM
so I was thinking right...most classes need some time to meditate and prepare spells/soulmelts/vestiges/maneuvers/whatever. So wouldnt a 1 dip class char need like 5 hours each morning to prepare for the day?

BobVosh
2010-06-03, 08:19 PM
An old homebrew class from the WotC Forums. The original thread, tragically, has been deleted ... so if you never saw it, I'm not sure I can convey how or why it was so hilarious. :smallfrown:

The thread and the google cache is gone, but thanks to the efforts of Keld we still have a copy of the class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7029114&postcount=6).

No familiar, though, so its kinda a worthless class.

*edit* I dont see it in there, but I believe it had D20 HD.

Amphetryon
2010-06-03, 08:30 PM
What are the sources of Orc Warlord, Lasher, Tribal Protector, Beast Heart Adept? And what exactly do they do?Orc Warlord, Lasher, and Tribal Protector, IIRC, are all from 3.0 Sword and Fist. Beast Heart Adept is in Dungeonscape; it made an appearance in the current Iron Chef competition.

In exceptionally broad strokes, and from memory:
Orc Warlord is a leader-type; Lasher is a whip-based PrC whose abilities work... oddly in a 3.5 game when the whip is not counted as a Ranged weapon; Tribal Protector can loosely be considered Ranger-esque with 'favored enemy: those hurting my tribe'; Beast Heart Adept is akin to Beastmaster for magical beasts.

Curmudgeon
2010-06-03, 08:35 PM
so I was thinking right...most classes need some time to meditate and prepare spells/soulmelts/vestiges/maneuvers/whatever. So wouldnt a 1 dip class char need like 5 hours each morning to prepare for the day?
You're right. Plus the 8 hour rest time for some classes. Your best bet is to be some race like Elf where you have non-sleeping rest time you in which you could also accomplish some other preparation.

Rest

To prepare her daily spells, a wizard must first sleep for 8 hours. The wizard does not have to slumber for every minute of the time, but she must refrain from movement, combat, spellcasting, skill use, conversation, or any other fairly demanding physical or mental task during the rest period.
A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells.
...
The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment.
Since divine spell preparation requires a peaceful environment, and doesn't require movement or talking, it should be possible to rest for your arcane preparation while you're preparing divine spells.

Pluto
2010-06-03, 08:48 PM
3.5 is bloated enough that this isn't especially hard to get 9th level spells.

eg.
Bard 1/Crusader 1/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 1/Wizard 1/Ruathar 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Master Specialist 1/Spellsword 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fatespinner 1/Divine Oracle 1/Loremaster 1/Wayfarer Guide 1/Mindbender 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/Paragnostic Disciple 1/Keeper of the Cerulean Sign 1/Archmage 1.

Start Bard for high skills, then dive into a melee build for the levels where melee builds are big and scary, then shift into a casting role as elegantly as possible, dabbling in Wizardry before diving into Sublime Chord. From there, a mishmash of specializations and focuses, all rewarding level dips with something special and useful. Also Keeper of the Cerulean Sign; mostly because I like Keeper of the Cerulean Sign.

edit:
And only 15 minutes prep for SC spells! (Though the extra hour for level 1-3 Wizard spells is probably also worthwhile.)

Thurbane
2010-06-03, 09:07 PM
@Thurbane: even someone as unskilled at building stuff as me sees that not taking a skillmonkey as your first class is just All Kinds Of Wrong! :smalleek:
Yeah, I kinda realized that after I had posted. The more obvious choice would be Factotum first. :smallredface: