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Fax Celestis
2010-06-03, 03:47 PM
So I have this itching feeling that my druid is going to bite the dust soon in this Pathfinder game we're playing. No, no particular reason and no DM hate, just an inkling.

So I want to have a backup character.

THINGS THAT WILL NOT CHANGE:
Male Human, Middle-Age (this character is my wife's character's father, so these cannot alter.)

AVAILABLE SOURCES:
Pretty much any 3.5 book you can get your hands on. Pathfinder base stuff, for sure, with alterations of existing 3.5 stuff to "Pathfinderize" it if there's no direct translation. Also, the Book of Experimental Might (BoXM) is available for feats.

WHAT I WANT:
Playing my druid, I've noticed I've been using snake's swiftness and the mass version rather frequently, and I like how it feels. I want to be a tactical battle commander-type. I do not repeat do not want to use a bard for this because I don't particularly want bard spellcasting. If you can figure out an ACF for bard spellcasting that I haven't found, cool, I'll rock the Perform (Tactics). Also, I looked at Marshal and found it disappointing.

As of now, to me it looks like my best bet is to go straight fighter, take the Domain of Leadership (BoXM) and a bunch of leader-esque feats from selfsame book, and call it a day, but that seems really boring. I'd like to use Legendary Leader, but it seems sort of Marshal-esque lame.

Zaq
2010-06-03, 04:00 PM
Either Warblade or Crusader with a focus on White Raven probably wouldn't let you down.

There's a class called the Tactical Soldier in the Miniatures Handbook, and it's one of those "interesting, but not powerful enough to justify 10 levels" classes, if I recall. Still, it might be worth looking at. I don't remember if it gets anything worth dipping.

Marshal and Dragon Shaman (and Divine Mind, but eww) have auras that buff their party, but that's not really being a tactician so much as a pillar to crowd around for slightly increased numbers.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-03, 04:04 PM
Minis Handbook! I always forget about that thing. I'll look at it tonight.

Eldariel
2010-06-03, 04:05 PM
Bard 3-4/Warblade (or Crusader) N with Song of the White Raven gets the most important battle leader-quality from Bard (Inspire Courage) and the White Raven maneuvers and stances from ToB netting you a very efficient team booster.

Crusader has the "heals" from Devoted Spirit while Warblade has few maneuvers/stances of interest from e.g. Tiger Claw (Wolf Pack Tactics comes to mind) so either works. Warblade is probably singularly stronger and has a less magical feel while Crusader is more of a beacon-of-hope type Paladin.


And you can minimize yourself to 1 Bard-level so you don't get spells, but frankly, getting Inspirational Boost from level 1 and the extra Bardic Music without burning feats on Extra Music seems kinda good. Either works though, and Inspirational Boost isn't terrific with Song of the White Raven since they conflict for the Swift Action of the turn meaning you need to burn an entire turn for setting the Song with Boost up.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-03, 04:09 PM
To be fair, my other issue with bard is that PF bard measures bardsong in rounds per day rather than uses per day--lamesauce extraordinaire.

I've perused White Raven and while it is pretty leadery, it's more "CHARGE" leader than "HIT HIM AGAIN" leader. That statement makes no sense, let me try again:

TL;DR I want to play Theoden instead of Boromir.

Greenish
2010-06-03, 04:14 PM
I've perused White Raven and while it is pretty leadery, it's more "CHARGE" leader than "HIT HIM AGAIN" leader.There are a few charge maneuvers, but there are many that grant extra actions (movement or attacks) to your allies, too.

Cieyrin
2010-06-03, 04:26 PM
Why not some mix of Knight/Warblade/Tactical Soldier? You draw attention to yourself with Knight Challenges, direct your allies through White Raven maneuvers (not all of which boil down to "Charge!") and use Tactical Soldier to create interesting flanks and otherwise battlefield control.

Person Man's Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429) covers a lot of that, especially the nummy parts of Tact Soldier.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

Eldariel
2010-06-03, 04:34 PM
To be fair, my other issue with bard is that PF bard measures bardsong in rounds per day rather than uses per day--lamesauce extraordinaire.

I've perused White Raven and while it is pretty leadery, it's more "CHARGE" leader than "HIT HIM AGAIN" leader. That statement makes no sense, let me try again:

TL;DR I want to play Theoden instead of Boromir.

It's well...it depends on your maneuver selection. I think White Raven is perfect for a leader rather than a frontliner too. Try this:

Stances:
Bolstering Voice
Tactics of the Wolf
Swarm Tactics

Maneuvers:
Leading the Attack
Douse the Flames
Tactical Strike
White Raven Tactics*
Covering Strike
Flanking Target
Order Forged From Chaos*
Clarion Call
Swarming Attack
War Master's Charge

The *s don't require attacks at all, and the rest boost others' stuff with your attacks, aside from War Master's Charge which...well, yeah. But it's a level 9 maneuver so I'm just giving it a free pass.

As for the Bard song, well, meh. I'd still think it's worth it; maybe talk for stacking the Warblade/Crusader levels with Bard for duration of Inspire Courage too due to the way it got rewritten with Song of the White Raven?

Thurbane
2010-06-03, 09:27 PM
The Miniature's Handbook has the Tactical Soldier PrC. In theory, this is supposed to represent a warrior specialized in fighting alongside others, and co-ordinating his combat with allies. In practice, it's a little sub-par, but good for a 2 or 3 level dip IMHO. Requires Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Sense Motive (2 ranks) and BAB +5.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-04, 11:17 AM
Okay, so 2 levels of Tactical Soldier seems pretty cool. Fighter (Leadership Domain) 5/Tactical Soldier 2/X 2 is tentative, but I'm still shopping around classes. Anyone have feat recommendations?

EDIT: Hm. Defender of Sealtiel may also be applicable, but eeeeew exalted.

Greenish
2010-06-04, 11:24 AM
Okay, so 2 levels of Tactical Soldier seems pretty cool. Fighter (Leadership Domain) 5/Tactical Soldier 2/X 2 is tentative, but I'm still shopping around classes. Anyone have feat recommendations?Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip/Knockdown, Stand Still to control enemies' movement.

Robilar's Gambit and/or Hold The Line with Evasive Reflexes to avoid enemies or get free movement.

[Edit]: You can make do without Evasive Reflexes since you get Sidestep from Tactical Soldier. It's not as good though.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-04, 11:32 AM
I'm not so much interested in playing a battlefield controller as I am playing a tactical commander.

Greenish
2010-06-04, 11:33 AM
I'm not so much interested in playing a battlefield controller as I am playing a tactical commander.Uhm, lots of Martial Studies then?

Fax Celestis
2010-06-04, 11:37 AM
Uhm, lots of Martial Studies then?

I'd really rather not, if I don't have to. There's a couple feats from the BoXM that are applicable and/or worthwhile (Bolstered by Success and Battle Command spring to mind); mostly I'm seeing if I missed anything.

dextercorvia
2010-06-04, 11:42 AM
Perhaps War Chanter. The combine songs ability might be more useful since PF has the round restriction. You can get in with minimal bard levels.

Say Bard1/Marshal4/FullBAB1/WarChanter...

Draz74
2010-06-04, 11:52 AM
Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, but I still can't see why White Raven Warblade isn't exactly what you're asking for. You can definitely customize your maneuver selection to be less "charge" oriented and more "grant other people actions" oriented.

I don't really have anything else to contribute, as all the other sources that are being discussed, I know nothing about. :smallredface:

Fax Celestis
2010-06-04, 11:54 AM
Truth be told, I am sort of tired of ToB (I know, right), and I want to see if I can do it without it. If I can't, I'll probably go Fighter 2/Warblade 3/Tactical Soldier 2/Warblade 2 or something.

EDIT: Hmm. Outcast Champion looks interesting. I may be able to get my DM to waive the race req.

Draz74
2010-06-04, 12:16 PM
Truth be told, I am sort of tired of ToB (I know, right), and I want to see if I can do it without it.
Hmmm, I guess that's understandable ... but you picked the wrong character concept to attempt it with. :smallwink: There are some noncaster concepts that the game is well-equipped to handle even without ToB. Tactician just isn't one of them.


If I can't, I'll probably go Fighter 2/Warblade 3/Tactical Soldier 2/Warblade 2 or something.
Now, that sounds perfectly reasonable. I applaud your trying something more experimental than just e.g. straight Warblade.

Another_Poet
2010-06-04, 12:30 PM
First off, in the interest of disclosure, I don't have any builds to suggest :)

I just wanted to remark that I'm a little surprised to see you playing in an ongoing PF game. You've been a pretty staunch critic of PF on these forums. I'm just curious, has playing in this PF campaign changed your opinion of the system at all? Or warmed you up to it?

ap

Fax Celestis
2010-06-04, 12:43 PM
Hmmmmmm.

Fighter 2/Warblade 3/Tactical Soldier 2/Outcast Champion 2 is looking better and better.


I just wanted to remark that I'm a little surprised to see you playing in an ongoing PF game. You've been a pretty staunch critic of PF on these forums. I'm just curious, has playing in this PF campaign changed your opinion of the system at all? Or warmed you up to it?
Pathfinder is just 3.5 with a set of houserules attached. I am a critic of it because it could have been more than that. Certainly, some of these rules (channeling, for instance) are clearly superior and simpler in every fashion to 3.5. Others didn't fix the issue they were designed to address. Others still actively exacerbated the problems within 3.5 (cf: form of the dragon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells---final/form-of-the-dragon-i), in which you turn into a fantastic dragon of your selection and then lets you keep your spellcasting).

It is a perfectly playable game, and it is the one my DM prefers to run. Given the option between Pathfinder and no game, I will choose Pathfinder every time. But given the option between Pathfinder and many other games, I will likely choose the other game.

Person_Man
2010-06-04, 01:39 PM
Have you considered:

Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3): Gives you access to all divine spells and bonuses to your allies based on your Knowledge checks. It'd be easy to cherry pick all of the best commander-ish things - Snake's Swiftness, Mass Snake's Swiftness (combine with Animate Objects FTW), Knight's Move, Resurgence, Know Greatest Enemy, healing, buffs, debuffs, walls, etc. All you would need to do is re-fluff a little, and maybe buy a Skillful exotic weapon to make you useful in melee combat when you don't feel like casting (which should be never).

Binder: Zceryll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718), oh my sweet gods bind Zceryll. Grants you the Psuedonatural template (scaled SR, DR, ER, Outsider type), Bolts of Madness (Save or Daze), telepathy (all sorts of roleplaying options), Mindsight (mental blind sight), and Summon Alien. This last ability lets you Summon as a Sorcerer of your Binder level once every five rounds, and everything you summon gets the psuedonatural template for free. Summon Alien has TONS of applications, since you can Summon things that can fight, heal, blast, disable traps, scout, transport, or pretty much anything else you can think of. Oh, and you have great social Skills and your choice of at least one other Vestige and various other class or PrC abilities. And all of your abilities are Supernatural, and thus can't be dispelled or stopped by anything short of AMF. This makes the Binder a pretty awesome party face and squad leader, capable of making his own squad.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-04, 01:46 PM
Archivist is too casty for what I'm aiming at here, but I hadn't considered Binder. Are there any other vestiges that could be useful/applicable?

Person_Man
2010-06-04, 03:36 PM
Archivist is too casty for what I'm aiming at here, but I hadn't considered Binder. Are there any other vestiges that could be useful/applicable?

Yes. I have a Trapper Keeper Binder build that focuses on battlefield control and Save or Lose effects. In the process of making him, I decided to index all the useful vestiges. Here's what I think would be applicable to a mid level "leader" Binder build:


Minimum Effective Binder level (actual Binder + some PrC levels + 2 if you take the Improved Binder feat): Name: Abilities (* denotes a 1/5 rounds ability)

1: Naberius: Disguise Self, Faster Ability Healing, Naberius’s Skills, Persuasive Words*, Silver Tongue. Faster healing heals ability damage every round. This is mostly useful in that it allows the use of several potent feats and drugs and the Festering Anger (Book of Vile Darkness) disease. Persuasive Words is Command, which is a useful low level Save or Suck. Silver Tongue gives large buffs to Diplomacy and Bluff, which is awesome when combined with the Disguise Self ability.

5: Paimon: Dance of Death*, Paimon’s Blade, Paimon’s Dexterity, Paimon’s Skills, Uncanny Dodge, Whirlwind Attack. Dance of Death lets you move up to your speed and hit every creature you move past once, which opens up all sorts of fun. With this, Whirlwind attack, and a good magic weapon, you rule against mooks.

7: Astaroth (Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a)): Angelic Lore, Asaroth's Breath*, Honeyed Tongue, Master Craftsman, Word of Astaroth.*
Bardic Knowledge, social Skill buffs, a 60-foot cone with a potent Fort Save debuff, and unlimited Suggestion, which is useful in and out of combat.

7: Kas (Dragon 341): Blinding Strike, Bluff bonus, Undead Reaper, Kas's Protection, and longsword, bastard sword, and short sword proficiency. When you crit, Blinding Strike permanently blinds your enemy (Will negates). Your Rogue will love you. Also, Undead Reaper lets you crit undead (ie, Blinding Strike effects them).

7: Tenebrous: Deeper Darkness, See in Darkness, Touch of the Void*, Turn/ Rebuke Undead*, Vessel of Emptiness (limited use per day). You can throw up an area of Darkness you can see through, imposing a 20% miss chance on your enemies. But the big deal is that you can Turn or Rebuke once every five rounds, and thus use your favorite domain or divine feat every combat.

10: Acererak: Detect Undead, Paralyzing Touch*, immunity to Cold and Electricity, Speak with Dead, healed by Negative energy. Paralyzing Touch gives a potent Save or Lose against one enemy. Immunity to Cold and being healed by Negative energy, which opens up a Lord of the Uttercold combo if you have a caster in the party. Speak with Dead is useful for pre-combat military intelligence (find some remains, asked how they died) and post combat interrogation - “Sorry that we had to ambush you, but could you tell us your master’s weaknesses?” “Are you kidding me, you just killed me.” "Tell me or I kill your family/He kept you as a slave, now is your chance for revenge! (My Intimidate/Diplomacy check is 52.) “Fine, fine. He’s vulnerable to fire.”

10: Balam: Balam’s Cunning*, Icy Glare, Prescience, Weapon Finesse. Prescience is a moderately scaled buff to Initiative/Reflex/AC. Balam’s Cunning gives you a reroll on any attack, Save, or Skill check, which can be very useful both in and out of combat (especially for party faces).

10: Dantalion: Awe of Dantalion*, bonus to all Knowledge, Read Thoughts, Thought Travel*. As a Move action Awe of Dantalion prevents anyone from taking any hostile action against you for one round. No Save – it just happens. So you can attack them and then use it to prevent a counter attack against you. Thought Travel is Dimension Door. The Scion of Dantalion prestige class greatly improves this vestige, and gives you two Save or Lose effects.

12: Chupoclops: Aura of Despair, Ethereal Watcher, Ghost Touch, Poison Bite, Pounce, Soulsense. The Aura imposes a -2 on pretty much everything to enemies within 10 ft. Ethereal Watcher let's you go Ethereal indefinitely until you act, which is great for setting up ambushes. And Pounce is always handy.

12: Desharis (Cityscape Web Enhancement) - City Dweller, Infinite Doors, Language of the City, Smite Natural Soul*, Spirits of the City*. Bonuses to Gather Info and Knowledge Local, weird teleport ability, occasionally useful Smite ability, and Animate Objects (for even MORE Summoning goodness and/or nanobots).

12: Haures: Mind Blank, Incorporeal Movement, Major Image*, Phantasmal Killer*. Mind Blank is an uber defense, incorporeal movement let's you ignore walls and terrain, and a creative player can do all sorts of things with Major Image.

12: Vanus (Design and Development WotC article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060407a)) - Fear Aura, Free Ally*, Noble Disdain, Vanus’s Ears. A potent Fear aura, a bonus to Listen, and the very useful Free Ally ability, which grants an ally Freedom of Movement and a free Move action. Very leader-ish, in my opinion.

12: The Triad (Mind’s Eye WotC article): Psionic Boon, Call to Mind, Psicraft Bonus, Bardic Knowledge, Empathy, Diplomacy Bonus, Smite Evil, Detect Hostile Intent, Sense Motive Bonus, Weapon Proficiency. The Weapon Proficiency is with every weapon, including every exotic weapon. This basically opens up all of the Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) combos (Trip, Grapple, Disarm, etc) without having to take a level of Master of Masks.

15: Marchosias - Death Attack, Fiery Retribution, Smoke Form*, Silent and Sure. This is mostly useful for the massive Competence bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, and infinite Gaseous Form.


You get one vestige at 1st level, a second vestige at 8th level, a 3rd vestige at 14th level, and a fourth vestige at 20th level. Which vestiges you bind depends on what you want to do that day. As a default, I would go with Zceryll and Vanus. But really, you could pull off any party role.

Another_Poet
2010-06-06, 12:11 PM
<well-considered response>

Makes sense, thanks for the detailed answer.

Il_Vec
2010-06-06, 12:21 PM
If you can use Dragonlance material, there is a Legendary Strategist PrC there.
Also, Purple dragon knight and war chanter.