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Mongoose87
2010-06-03, 05:28 PM
Consider the following:

Some of the most powerful potential for sorcerers in 3.5 is in the kobold
Paizo claims that Pathfinder is compatible with 3.5 with a bit of tweaking
A character of a monstrous race in PF uses its CR as its ECL

Kobold Characters
Kobolds are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. A kobold with NPC class levels takes a –3 penalty to its CR (rather than the normal –2 penalty). All kobolds have the following racial traits.


So, in addition to the free caster levels and other goodies Kobolds tend to pick up willy-nilly, they now get an extra two class levels!?

Fax Celestis
2010-06-03, 05:28 PM
Pathfinder is a CF of oversights and poor editing. Imagine that, they did it again.

sofawall
2010-06-03, 05:30 PM
That's facking hilarious. My ECL 4 kobold is casting as, what, a level 10? With 6 hit dice?

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-03, 05:37 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but the passage you quoted only says that an orc warrior level 4 is CR2, a kobold one is CR1.

The rulebook explicitly says that kobold, goblins and so on are playable, starting by level 1. Says nothing about free levels. Pag 406 core rulebook.

It seems to me that you either:

- Are trying to abuse rules thanks to a favorable interpretation

- Are trying to bash pathfinder because.. eh. It's funny.

Mongoose87
2010-06-03, 05:40 PM
Maybe I'm wrong, but the passage you quoted only says that an orc warrior level 4 is CR2, a kobold one is CR1.

The rulebook explicitly says that kobold, goblins and so on are playable, starting by level 1. Says nothing about free levels. Pag 406 core rulebook.

It seems to me that you either:

- Are trying to abuse rules thanks to a favorable interpretation

- Are trying to bash pathfinder because.. eh. It's funny.

Actually, I like a lot of what Pathfinder does, though they missed the boat on a number of things.

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-03, 05:42 PM
Actually, I like a lot of what Pathfinder does, though they missed the boat on a number of things.

This is the same for me. Actually, re-reading my post, it way too harsh, excuse me, mongoose87.

AstralFire
2010-06-03, 05:46 PM
Consider the following:

Some of the most powerful potential for sorcerers in 3.5 is in the kobold
Paizo claims that Pathfinder is compatible with 3.5 with a bit of tweaking
A character of a monstrous race in PF uses its CR as its ECL



So, in addition to the free caster levels and other goodies Kobolds tend to pick up willy-nilly, they now get an extra two class levels!?

Sorcerer's not an NPC class.

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-03, 05:49 PM
Sorcerer's not an NPC class.

Which is why you take a first-level dip in commoner.

AstralFire
2010-06-03, 05:50 PM
Which is why you take a first-level dip in commoner.

I am making wild guesses at the rules for NPC classes here, but I'd say if most of your levels are in PC classes, that wouldn't work.

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-03, 05:52 PM
I am making wild guesses at the rules for NPC classes here, but I'd say if most of your levels are in PC classes, that wouldn't work.

"A kobold with NPC class levels takes a –3 penalty to its CR"

Doesn't ask for a majority, just that they're there.

AstralFire
2010-06-03, 05:55 PM
I'm still not sure if I'd count this as a mark against Pathfinder. I don't even like the system, but do you really think a DM would let that fly?

sofawall
2010-06-03, 05:55 PM
"A kobold with NPC class levels takes a –3 penalty to its CR"

Doesn't ask for a majority, just that they're there.

But someone with class levels takes a -2 penalty.

Fax Celestis
2010-06-03, 05:59 PM
But someone with class levels takes a -2 penalty.

...so being a kobold commoner 1/sorcerer 1 makes you CR -3? o_O

Kaiyanwang
2010-06-03, 05:59 PM
But someone with class levels takes a -2 penalty.

Again, how it works is better explained at page 406. Says nothing about free levels.

This is only intended as a way to lower challenge rating.. that is.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-03, 06:15 PM
I'm confused... maybe it's because I know very little about Pathfinder... Is CR=ECL in Pathfinder? Because as far as I know your challenge rating and your effective class levels are only related in that your ECL should determine your CR. I'm confused as to how a lower CR gives you free levels...:smallconfused:

jindra34
2010-06-03, 06:20 PM
I'm confused... maybe it's because I know very little about Pathfinder... Is CR=ECL in Pathfinder? Because as far as I know your challenge rating and your effective class levels are only related in that your ECL should determine your CR. I'm confused as to how a lower CR gives you free levels...:smallconfused:
CR=La or more specifally CR+LEVELs= ECL. Of course PF also says to determine power by racial HD so I'm not sure whats going on.

Mongoose87
2010-06-03, 06:21 PM
I'm confused... maybe it's because I know very little about Pathfinder... Is CR=ECL in Pathfinder? Because as far as I know your challenge rating and your effective class levels are only related in that your ECL should determine your CR. I'm confused as to how a lower CR gives you free levels...:smallconfused:

As I stated, in my first post,



A character of a monstrous race in PF uses its CR as its ECL





This is the same for me. Actually, re-reading my post, it way too harsh, excuse me, mongoose87.

I didn't find it all that harsh. Mind you I frequent some sports-centered forums, so "harsh" could be pretty different between us two.

Ishcumbeebeeda
2010-06-03, 06:26 PM
Ah. Well then. My confusion is due less to my unfamiliarity and more with my inability to read... Sorry about that.

Eurus
2010-06-03, 06:29 PM
I'd say that one of the big problems is that CR=ECL is a Bad Idea. Not that LA + RHD = ECL is much better, but still. CR has always been completely arbitrary and borked.

WorstDMEver
2010-06-03, 06:30 PM
...so being a kobold commoner 1/sorcerer 1 makes you CR -3? o_O

no - a CR -1 (CR = CL with -3 penalty...).

But, in any of my campaigns you'd be fixed. If you're playing this as a character you're just another PC, none of this chicanery.

As far as NPCs, I'd apply the CR penalty solely for the purposes of denying you some XP or for throwing more at you for the same XP reward. Just a nifty way to make PCs think before they jump the "wimpy kobolds."

Prime32
2010-06-03, 06:32 PM
I'm pretty sure that the kobold CR thing was in 3.5 as well. The Monster Manual being published before Races of the Dragon of course.

EDIT: Yes it was (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/kobold.htm).

Mongoose87
2010-06-03, 06:36 PM
I'd say that one of the big problems is that CR=ECL is a Bad Idea. Not that LA + RHD = ECL is much better, but still. CR has always been completely arbitrary and borked.

I concur. My favorite example is the PF centaur, which has 4 RHD, and a CR of 3. Two good saves, full BaB, four skill points/HD - you're making the fighter jealous.

Prime32
2010-06-03, 06:45 PM
I concur. My favorite example is the PF centaur, which has 4 RHD, and a CR of 3. Two good saves, full BaB, four skill points/HD - you're making the fighter jealous.I'd heard PF reduced the CRs of enemies with class levels. So a human fighter 4 would be CR 2 or 3.

Enix18
2010-06-03, 07:29 PM
To clarify this strange idea people have about Kobolds having a negative ECL:

An NPC with NPC class levels is considered 2 levels lower than a PC with the same class levels for the purpose of CR. An NPC with PC class levels is considered 1 level lower than a PC with the same class levels for the purpose of CR. For Kobolds, these CR penalties increase by 1.

However, these CR penalties do not apply to PCs. Furthermore, even for NPCs these CR penalties cannot reduce their CR to 0 or less. Rather, an NPC whose CR would be reduced below 1 instead moves a step lower along the fractional CR path (1 --> 1/2 --> 1/3 --> etc.).

Thus, a 1st level Commoner Kobold would be CR 1/4 and ECL 1.

QuantumSteve
2010-06-03, 08:00 PM
Consider the following:
A character of a monstrous race in PF uses its CR as its ECL


Firstly, this is only true of monsters with racial hit dice.

Secondly, the tone of the entire "Monsters as PCs" section of the Bestiary is that monstrous PCs are experimental at best and DMs should handle them very carefully and on a case-by-case basis.