Gia vs. Doc Roc; oh the insanity

[9mm]

EVERYBODY, LISTEN!
By entering this thread you have agreed to live by the following rules and regulations:

Rule 1: The Arbiter's (me) word is final: you have 3 appeals each over the course of these events; use them wisely. Any appeal or rules argument will be ignored after these 3 appeals are used. Failure to drop it will result in the Arbiter taking your turn for you, please note the Arbiter is vindictive.

Rule 2: There will be 3 events, with their own location and in-game rules. Possible rules might include a race, carrying a object to a goal, or clear rooms as fast as possible. These rules will be explained at the beginning of the event and not sooner; your prep time for the event will be declared at the rules announcement. I suggest you build you characters accordingly.

Rule 3: You are restricted to the PHB, DMG, and MM I. Full WBL, with enough XP to put you both at 20, XP costs can drop you below this number: straight Wizard, straight Monk.

Rule 4: The following things are banned because I don't want to deal with them.
Leadership
Dust of Choking and Sneezing
infinite loops.

Rule 5: For any shapeshifting or summoning spell that does not have a specific target/shape or list of target/shapes, you must be able to make knowledge checks to know if a creature or monster exists (DC is the same as IDing the creature as set by the Arbiter) Summon and shapeshift wisely. Hirelings or magical aid use your knowledge check for these effects.

Rule 6: Per request, all clarifications of items/spells/rules will be placed in this spoiler:
Dust of Disappearance: This functions as greater invisibility, but can get around things like alarm and proximity set magic traps. It does not, however, protect you from any magical detection that beats greater invisibility.
Rod of Cancellation: This is a one shot item, regardless of draining an magical item or a magical Wall of Force or other effect.
Contingency: All effects of the contingency must be laid out in full at the creation of the contingency.
Simulacrum: You must have been in the physical presence of the copied creature at its creation; also, creation must be conducted in the event's prep days or during the event itself, though given the 12 hour casting time, this might not be advisable.
Gate: Does not transport you to any time plane, but otherwise will work normal; however, you must be intimately familiar with your desired points if using the first functionality. See rule 5 for summoning limitations; immediate tasks are declared on summoning, at which point, the creature will move to accomplish that task to the best of it's ability. You do not, however, have direct total control over it.
Calling spells: Any contractual work/spell (like Planar Binding, etc.) takes place during prep time or during the event. This includes the negotiation of this work.
Diplomacy: You may use prep time or event time to attempt to gain buddies who will help you. Your opponent and his buddies will always be hostile.

personal range spells stay on what ever body you currently occupy at casting: you don't get to take them with you if you switch bodies.

preptime is determined by the event itself and declared at the start of the event; you do not know the event ahead of time.

Items: no custom items, this is not a one-shot adventure, the x5 price rule does not apply, though I'd suggest bringing 5 of each consumable.

28 buy is the only restriction; player handbook races would be prefered. La will eat levels though.

Rule 7: After the start of the first event, the above rules are non-negotiable; till then, they are.

[Optimator]

Yee-haw! This'll be good.

[sdream]

I think this setup is much more play as intended than an arena style dual.

Facing unknown challenges of a wide variety, as they would exploring a dungeon with a few good drinking buddies.

I'm gonna try to send a suggestion via PM also.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi,

thanks again, 9mm, for putting a lot of effort into this. Also, thanks go to Doc Roc for doing this challenge.

For a start, I think it is going to be very, very difficult to find a common ground as to 1) what rules should be excluded (if any at all) and 2) (likely more prevalent during the game) how certain rules are going to be interpreted.
High level play is very tricky. At least that's my experience.


EVERYBODY, LISTEN!
By entering this thread you have agreed to live by the following rules and regulations:

Rule 1: The Arbiter's (me) word is final: you have 3 appeals each over the course of these events; use them wisely. Any appeal or rules argument will be ignored after these 3 appeals are used. Failure to drop it will result in the Arbiter taking your turn for you, please note the Arbiter is vindictive.

First comment: This is a playtest to get some new insights for a discussion, not just a fun duel (although I guess it will be a lot of fun!). As such, I think we need to find a consensus on the rulings wherever possible. I also predict that 3 rules appeals are going to be too few.
Still, I say OK for now.

R
ule 2: There will be 3 events, with their own location and in-game rules. Possible rules might include a race, carrying a object to a goal, or clear rooms as fast as possible. These rules will be explained at the beginning of the event and not sooner; your prep time for the event will be declared at the rules announcement. I suggest you build you characters accordingly.

This is going to be very interesting. But I daresay:
- it is going to be very ambitious. I wonder if we even get a simple combat duel done completely at such a high level.
- we'll possibly end up being quite divided on how much the particular setting and in-game rules are going to favour one side or the other. But that is something to find out.
So - OK, too.


Rule 3: You are restricted to the PHB, DMG, and MM I. Full WBL, with enough XP to put you both at 20, XP costs can drop you below this number: straight Wizard, straight Monk.

So, it is going to be a wizard vs monk instead of a wizard vs fighter fight? I'm fine with both (and I also think that Doc Roc was inclined to see how a monk fares against a wizard).
Your XP ruling provides a small advantage for the wizard (who now can cast spells with XP cost whereas it usually is not possible when doing so would mean losing a level). Hardly anything a non-caster can do costs XP.
But OK. Casting spells with XP has the drawback of losing a level - that should be fine.
Most important for me to make sure: wbl is the same for both, so no double wealth due to item creation feats for the wizard or astral projection tricks. When the DMG explicitly says that not adhering to that guideline ends in imbalance, I tend to believe it...:smallwink:


Rule 4: The following things are banned because I don't want to deal with them.
Leadership
Dust of Choking and Sneezing
infinite loops.

Here, again, I repeat what I said in the other thread: The system provides various ways to get powerful minions. When one side gets sealed off almost completely from this (by banning leadership), and the other not (by not banning spells that get you minions), there likely is going to be a problem.
Suggestion: both wizard and monk are drawn with their equipment/items (and familiar in the wizard's case) somewhere without any called creatures and simulacra. What happens afterwards then is an entirely different matter.


Rule 5: For any shapeshifting or summoning spell that does not have a specific target/shape or list of target/shapes, you must be able to make knowledge checks to know if a creature or monster exists (DC is the same as IDing the creature as set by the Arbiter) Summon and shapeshift wisely. Hirelings or magical aid use your knowledge check for these effects.

Again imo a slight advantage for the wizard. It's a bit of a stretch to assume that, for instance, efreeti will be called/summoned simply because the wizard happens to know they exist. The decisive piece of information (the wishing thing) is one bit of information whose DC is set by the DM whether a character would even get that idea.
But OK I guess. The issue for metagaming for 20th level characters is probably not really important. After all, the monk also will choose the best feats, buffs or equipment for what he is going to do.


Rule 6: Per request, all clarifications of items/spells/rules will be placed in this spoiler:
Dust of Disappearance: This functions as greater invisibility, but can get around things like alarm and proximity set magic traps. It does not, however, protect you from any magical detection that beats greater invisibility.
Rod of Cancellation: This is a one shot item, regardless of draining an magical item or a magical Wall of Force or other effect.
Contingency: All effects of the contingency must be laid out in full at the creation of the contingency.
Simulacrum: You must have been in the physical presence of the copied creature at its creation; also, creation must be conducted in the event's prep days or during the event itself, though given the 12 hour casting time, this might not be advisable.
Gate: Does not transport you to any time plane, but otherwise will work normal; however, you must be intimately familiar with your desired points if using the first functionality. See rule 5 for summoning limitations; immediate tasks are declared on summoning, at which point, the creature will move to accomplish that task to the best of it's ability. You do not, however, have direct total control over it.
Calling spells: Any contractual work/spell (like Planar Binding, etc.) takes place during prep time or during the event. This includes the negotiation of this work.
Diplomacy: You may use prep time or event time to attempt to gain buddies who will help you. Your opponent and his buddies will always be hostile.


- Objection to rod of cancellation due to the reasons I outlined in the other thread(s). But I'll not cling to it. It is more of an issue when wall of force comes up (lvl 9+) in the mid levels, not at 20th level when people visit the astral plane regularly. I think.
- gate: the ruling that the creature is apparently willing/friendly (not seeking revenge right afterwards) and fights to the best of its ability (although gate opposed to the summoning spells does not specify this and only speaks about a "service") is again somewhat wizard-friendly. Maybe you would wish to reconsider this to at least insert back the element of risk that gate describes.
- Prep time buddy gaining: see my suggestion above. Or leadership should be back in.



Rule 7: After the start of the first event, the above rules are non-negotiable; till then, they are.

Fine, but let's see how far we get with consensus first.

- Giacomo

[Koury]

- gate: the ruling that the creature is apparently willing/friendly (not seeking revenge right afterwards) and fights to the best of its ability (although gate opposed to the summoning spells does not specify this and only speaks about a "service") is again somewhat wizard-friendly. Maybe you would wish to reconsider this to at least insert back the element of risk that gate describes.

What?

No really, what? The spell very clearly says that you control the creature if it has less than twice your caster level in HD. The spell only mentions risk in regards to gating in a creature in excess of that, or if you fail to pay if you make a contract with the being (which you do not have to do at all if the service is 'fight on my side in this battle' or lasts for less then your caster level in rounds).


Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level1. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help2. The creature departs at the end of the spell3.

If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.

Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.

So, a wizard casts Gate, pays the XP, and chooses say, Solar. A Solar has 22 HD, which is less then twice his caster level, and is a therefore able to be controlled by the wizard1.

The wizard then says "Fight on my side in this battle." The Solar then must, without payment of any kind2, fight on your side in that battle.

After the battle, the Solar leaves3.

Where is the risk at again?

[Sir Giacomo]

So, a wizard casts Gate, pays the XP, and chooses say, Solar. A Solar has 22 HD, which is less then twice his caster level, and is a therefore able to be controlled by the wizard1.

The wizard then says "Fight on my side in this battle." The Solar then must, without payment of any kind2, fight on your side in that battle.

After the battle, the Solar leaves3.

Where is the risk at again?

You pull the Solar into a fight, willing or unwilling (see spell description). A calling effect means it can die in this fight.
How would you as a DM let this Solar react after it returned to whence it came? How would you personally react if someone pulled you magically for a couple of minutes into a dangerous combat somewhere in this universe?

Sure, you can also as a wizard throw a fireball into the middle of a market square in a town to catch an evil thief. But possibly the DM will have the people on that market square react in a negative way.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

[Sliver]

How would you as a DM let this Solar react after it returned to whence it came?

- Giacomo

How is this relevant for the challenge? :smallconfused:

[Adumbration]

Subscribing out of interest. Was there an original thread where this was organised, out of curiosity? Where? I'd like to read it.

[Sliver]

Yes. yes there was. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153628)

[Jarian]

As much as I disagree with Gia's interpretation and attempts at rule-twisting (Bring on the wall-o-text rebuttal to this. I'll get the popcorn.), wouldn't it be better to just let him use up one of his appeals on this? :smallwink:

[Adumbration]

Yes. yes there was. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153628)

Oh, that. I noticed that only when it was already several pages long, so never bothered to read it. Didn't realized the Roc and Gia had gotten involved.

[Math_Mage]

You pull the Solar into a fight, willing or unwilling (see spell description). A calling effect means it can die in this fight.
How would you as a DM let this Solar react after it returned to whence it came? How would you personally react if someone pulled you magically for a couple of minutes into a dangerous combat somewhere in this universe?

Sure, you can also as a wizard throw a fireball into the middle of a market square in a town to catch an evil thief. But possibly the DM will have the people on that market square react in a negative way.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

None of this affects the RAW posted. Maybe the Solar will be annoyed enough to have a little chat with the wizard after the battle (of course, since it's LG, it's unlikely to do anything serious to the wizard simply for using a standard spell as intended--I assume that the wizard and monk have good reason to want to kill each other, or this whole exercise is pointless), but that doesn't change the fact that it will fight to the best of its ability during the battle, if only to avoid the whole dying thing. It can't up and not fight.

(This analysis presumes that the Solar actually feels threatened by the Monk, of course. :smallwink:)

[Sir Giacomo]

None of this affects the RAW posted. Maybe the Solar will be annoyed enough to have a little chat with the wizard after the battle (of course, since it's LG, it's unlikely to do anything serious to the wizard simply for using a standard spell as intended--I assume that the wizard and monk have good reason to want to kill each other, or this whole exercise is pointless), but that doesn't change the fact that it will fight to the best of its ability during the battle, if only to avoid the whole dying thing. It can't up and not fight.

(This analysis presumes that the Solar actually feels threatened by the Monk, of course. :smallwink:)

It will fight, that is not the question.

One of the questions is what will happen afterwards. As an npc a Solar should give a xxx about whether someone somewhere uses a spell as intended. It is put at risk, that is all that counts. And due to its high spellcraft recognising the spell it will realise that powerful magic has been used because of some powerful threat. Additionally, a mere mortal presumes that a Solar has nothing better to do during 20 rounds than do a completely useless fight (from its perspective). The solar may be lawful good, but depending on the campaign of the DM, these cirumstances could/should result in some problems for the wizard after the gate spell ends.

Another question is that the RAW of the spell is different from the summoning spells (where "attacks your opponents to the best of its ability" is mentioned, whereas for gate it just says "...perform a service for you....immediate task...fighting for you in a single battle..."). Meaning that the called creature will risk its own life in a fight much less than a summoned one (logical, also since the called creature can actually perish whereas the summoned one not).

But OK, also, let's just ignore an imo likley npc reaction and behaviour for the purpose of this duel.
Do not think, though, that control is going to be a safe matter ...:smallamused:

- Giacomo

[Sliver]

Another question is that the RAW of the spell is different from the summoning spells (where "attacks your opponents to the best of its ability" is mentioned, whereas for gate it just says "...perform a service for you....immediate task...fighting for you in a single battle..."). Meaning that the called creature will risk its own life in a fight much less than a summoned one (logical, also since the called creature can actually perish whereas the summoned one not).

- Giacomo

Except that it says that the called creature is controlled by the wizard. For the fight, he will fight to the best of it's ability. What happens after that makes no difference for this challenge.

[Sir Giacomo]

Except that it says that the called creature is controlled by the wizard. For the fight, he will fight to the best of it's ability. What happens after that makes no difference for this challenge.

Where in the spell does it say that the called creature will "fight to the best of its ability"?
Guys, you are calling a powerful outsider here, willing or unwilling! The spell speaks about "controlling". Do you think the called creature will be the caster's best friend or what?

- Giacomo

[Sliver]

What does it matter if it's your friend or not if you control it? Controlling is not asking, it's just like Dominate works...

[Sir Giacomo]

What does it matter if it's your friend or not if you control it? Controlling is not asking, it's just like Dominate works...

I see that you have failed to answer my question.
Let us leave it at that and wait for what Doc Roc and 9mm have to say.

- Giacomo

[Sliver]

So the wizard just says "Fight as best as you can" and that's it. That is what this pointless nit picking wished to achieve?

You don't care if it's your friend, it doesn't matter if he will be mad at you after he returns, at least not for the challenge, and you control it.

[Koury]

You pull the Solar into a fight, willing or unwilling (see spell description). A calling effect means it can die in this fight.I concur.

How would you as a DM let this Solar react after it returned to whence it came? Well, if it was willing in the first place, then it'd proceed with its life as usual. If it was unwilling and survived, it is most certainly not going to risk its life once more seeking some sort of revenge. That doesn't scream "Always Good" to me. No, its much more likely to not do a thing about it.

How would you personally react if someone pulled you magically for a couple of minutes into a dangerous combat somewhere in this universe? Hopefully something like this? (http://www.erfworld.com/book-1-archive/?px=%2F001.jpg)

[9mm]

ok... unless you are Gia, Doc Rock or me, please stay out of the rule discussion.

gia... massive post is massive;


First comment: This is a playtest to get some new insights for a discussion, not just a fun duel (although I guess it will be a lot of fun!). As such, I think we need to find a consensus on the rulings wherever possible. I also predict that 3 rules appeals are going to be too few.
Still, I say OK for now.

once play begins all rules will be interpreted as I, the DM, interpret them just like if this was a normal game at a normal game table. This is one of the few things I will not budge on. The appeal system is based on my own IRL practice (3 rules appeals per month). If there is any rule you wish to be thrashed out between the three of us, now is the time to bring it up.



This is going to be very interesting. But I daresay:
- it is going to be very ambitious. I wonder if we even get a simple combat duel done completely at such a high level.
- we'll possibly end up being quite divided on how much the particular setting and in-game rules are going to favour one side or the other. But that is something to find out.
So - OK, too.

the event system is for my benefit more than anything else... watching two players shoot it out at the O.K. Coral is one of the most boring things I have ever done. this will give me something to maintain interest in the thread, nothing more, nothing less.



So, it is going to be a wizard vs monk instead of a wizard vs fighter fight? I'm fine with both (and I also think that Doc Roc was inclined to see how a monk fares against a wizard).

honestly, I wasn't paying that much attention to the inital setup. if it's fighter instead of monk thats fine too.


Your XP ruling provides a small advantage for the wizard (who now can cast spells with XP cost whereas it usually is not possible when doing so would mean losing a level). Hardly anything a non-caster can do costs XP.
But OK. Casting spells with XP has the drawback of losing a level - that should be fine.

I have never been in a game in which some one was exactly on the number of level up, or a wizard wasn't lagging behind in XP once he started needing to spend it on spells/crafting, this rule reflects that fact.


Most important for me to make sure: wbl is the same for both, so no double wealth due to item creation feats for the wizard or astral projection tricks. When the DMG explicitly says that not adhering to that guideline ends in imbalance, I tend to believe it...:smallwink:

you have the amount of gold listed on the table, and are free to spend it however you wish.



Here, again, I repeat what I said in the other thread: The system provides various ways to get powerful minions. When one side gets sealed off almost completely from this (by banning leadership), and the other not (by not banning spells that get you minions), there likely is going to be a problem.
Suggestion: both wizard and monk are drawn with their equipment/items (and familiar in the wizard's case) somewhere without any called creatures and simulacra. What happens afterwards then is an entirely different matter.

leadership is banned because I am too busy to write up each and every follower both you and doc would have. I believe I have blocked access to all minion making effects till the prep time of an event, if I've missed one let me know.


Again imo a slight advantage for the wizard. It's a bit of a stretch to assume that, for instance, efreeti will be called/summoned simply because the wizard happens to know they exist. The decisive piece of information (the wishing thing) is one bit of information whose DC is set by the DM whether a character would even get that idea.
But OK I guess. The issue for metagaming for 20th level characters is probably not really important. After all, the monk also will choose the best feats, buffs or equipment for what he is going to do.

yes, the orders given to the summoned monster or shape shifted form will be decided by that knowledge check, and yes the dc for certain abilities are set by me. needless to say; the most powerful ablities are the last ones mentioned.



- Objection to rod of cancellation due to the reasons I outlined in the other thread(s). But I'll not cling to it. It is more of an issue when wall of force comes up (lvl 9+) in the mid levels, not at 20th level when people visit the astral plane regularly. I think.

main reasoning is the items description clearly says it stops working after being used sucessfully, and I consider draining a wall of force a sucessful use.


- gate: the ruling that the creature is apparently willing/friendly (not seeking revenge right afterwards) and fights to the best of its ability (although gate opposed to the summoning spells does not specify this and only speaks about a "service") is again somewhat wizard-friendly. Maybe you would wish to reconsider this to at least insert back the element of risk that gate describes.

as pointed out repeatedly; there is little I can do for having a creature give the wizard finger without blatantly ignoring what is written, however I will point out the "do not have direct control" part of the ruling, I WILL NOT however make a definitive "they will immediately seek revenge" on something that context sensitive.


- Prep time buddy gaining: see my suggestion above. Or leadership should be back in.

see leadership response, same reasoning. outside networks/buddies/minions should be limited to being set up during prep-time or during the event.

[Sir Giacomo]

ok... unless you are Gia, Doc Rock or me, please stay out of the rule discussion.

gia... massive post is massive;

will reduce no. of words henceforth, promise!:smallsmile:


once play begins all rules will be interpreted as I, the DM, interpret them just like if this was a normal game at a normal game table. This is one of the few things I will not budge on. The appeal system is based on my own IRL practice (3 rules appeals per month). If there is any rule you wish to be thrashed out between the three of us, now is the time to bring it up.

OK. Note, though, that it is impossible to discuss all potential rules opinions in advance. When I PM my build to you, I'll to clarify as much as possible before the contest starts.


the event system is for my benefit more than anything else... watching two players shoot it out at the O.K. Coral is one of the most boring things I have ever done. this will give me something to maintain interest in the thread, nothing more, nothing less.

OK. Eager to see what you have in mind.


honestly, I wasn't paying that much attention to the inital setup. if it's fighter instead of monk thats fine too.

Monk, if the choice is mine. It is better suited for a challenge like this, I think - and Doc Roc apparently also was more interested in seeing a level 20 core monk of mine perform.


I have never been in a game in which some one was exactly on the number of level up, or a wizard wasn't lagging behind in XP once he started needing to spend it on spells/crafting, this rule reflects that fact.

OK.


you have the amount of gold listed on the table, and are free to spend it however you wish.

Again: as long as a wizard's item creation feats do not allow him to exceed the wbl end value of items, I'm fine with this.


leadership is banned because I am too busy to write up each and every follower both you and doc would have. I believe I have blocked access to all minion making effects till the prep time of an event, if I've missed one let me know.

OK, I'll just have to wait and see what kind of prep time you think is appropriate and what the wizard makes of it.


yes, the orders given to the summoned monster or shape shifted form will be decided by that knowledge check, and yes the dc for certain abilities are set by me. needless to say; the most powerful ablities are the last ones mentioned.

OK.


main reasoning is the items description clearly says it stops working after being used sucessfully, and I consider draining a wall of force a sucessful use.

The item makes no mention of spells, only of stopping working after being used successfully vs items. But for this duel, I'll follow your interpretation.


as pointed out repeatedly; there is little I can do for having a creature give the wizard finger without blatantly ignoring what is written, however I will point out the "do not have direct control" part of the ruling, I WILL NOT however make a definitive "they will immediately seek revenge" on something that context sensitive.

OK. Let's for the purpose of this duel abstract from the consequences of what you do that are beyond the duel end.


see leadership response, same reasoning. outside networks/buddies/minions should be limited to being set up during prep-time or during the event.

OK - also see above.

Hopefully I can finish my build during this weekend. Will PM then.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

During character building, a couple of questions came up:

- how long is the preparation time for the duel/match going to be? Or will we not know this in advance? What do both duelists know in advance? ("Hey grandmaster wizard, in 12 hours you are going to be whisked away to an unknown place to fight a monk and do some tasks for a contest")
- if preparation time is known in advance, where is this preparation time done? At home? In an empty room? And will this be known?
- Can you have several item properties in one item/item slot by paying the +50% more gold as per item creation rules? (i.e. can there be an amulet of WIS+6/CON+6?)
- Are the item creation rules used at all (i.e. can there be custom items like a ring of AMF 1/day)?
- Just to check since it was only mentioned in the original discussion thread ("fighter/monk/paladin oh my"): I'm currently making a build with 28pt-buy, no LA adj race, straight monk (no prc/multiclass).
EDIT: also I calculate x5 for each one-shot item price deducted from wbl since I think there is no extra budget for one-off items as possible to interpret from the DMG.

- Giacomo

[Sliver]

Is this actually happening? I'm asking since Doc Roc didn't post in this thread at all...

[Doc Roc]

Sorry for my late appearance. I'm still in. I've been out of town quite a bit recently, and thought I'd go ahead and wait out the inevitable gate argument instead of spending my valuable limited time on it. I won't be appealing it, so whatever 9 says goes. I'm not really planning to use gate, because I don't need it.

I do consider Gia a credible opponent, so I've spent a ton of time thinking about this. I have some char-building questions myself, but I'll hash them out later. This is just a keep-alive post.

[Doc Roc]

Mostly done, I think. Who's vetting my sheet?

[9mm]

ok ruling timez:

personal range spells stay on what ever body you currently occupy at casting: you don't get to take them with you if you switch bodies.

preptime is determined by the event itself and declared at the start of the event; you do not know the event ahead of time.

Items: no custom items.

28 buy is the only restriction; player handbook races would be prefered. La will eat levels though.

[Math_Mage]

Mostly done, I think. Who's vetting my sheet?

If you tell me which books you're using, I think I can vet. But I wouldn't want to be the only one.

[Doc Roc]

If you tell me which books you're using, I think I can vet. But I wouldn't want to be the only one.

I thought this was core only? :)
Though I understand if you are still deeply reluctant to vet it on your own.

[Math_Mage]

I thought this was core only? :)
Though I understand if you are still deeply reluctant to vet it on your own.

Haha, brain fart. Fire away.

[Adumbration]

I can try to check the sheet too, just send me the link.

I would be more comfortable if a third guy checked too. :smalltongue:

[Claudius Maximus]

I might be able to do it. I'll be out for the next two-three days though on account of changing countries.

[Math_Mage]

I might be able to do it. I'll be out for the next two-three days though on account of changing countries.

Always a good excuse. :smallbiggrin:

[Sir Giacomo]

Interesting new information.
I'd still recommend
- using 0 LA or even just PHB races
- applying the x5 rule for one-shot items.(or, wands with /5 charges)

Question: does an amulet of CON&WIS +6 or a vest of resistance +5 count as custom items or are they allowed?

I'll likely PM my build with specific questions to 9mm this weekend.

- Giacomo

[Doc Roc]

Races with LA are completely useless to the a caster. The reason they are allowed, I think, is to try and provide you with more options. :)

I'm literally using no consumables, at this point, so I would obviously prefer the 5x cost.

[DragoonWraith]

- applying the x5 rule for one-shot items.
Does that include the Rod of Cancellation?

[Doc Roc]

Hey Gia, if you tell me your theoretical max AB, I'll tell you my actual armor class. :)

For observers:

AC 50, even flat-footed.
AC 56 for my actual caster

[Koury]

Does that include the Rod of Cancellation?

Yeah, 9mm ruled in the op on that.


Rod of Cancellation: This is a one shot item, regardless of draining an magical item or a magical Wall of Force or other effect.

[Doc Roc]

Pretty much Good to go.

Where's my illustrious challenger?

[Sir Giacomo]

Loading please wait...:smallsmile:

(more tomorrow)

- Giacomo

EDIT: sorry for the delay...real life work unexpectedly interfered this weekend and I'll be travelling a lot during this week. I'll try to post, but I'm not sure when. Will be able to start next week at the latest, though!

[Doc Roc]

Checked and good to go.

[Doc Roc]

I'll fight other people while I wait, if you guys want a go.

[Rothen]

So this is not going to start/happen? :smallconfused:

It's been a while, now.

[Doc Roc]

I'd really like it to. But Gia has vanished.

[Math_Mage]

I'd really like it to. But Gia has vanished.

Not vanished; he was on yesterday morning. Just...not ready yet, I guess. Whatever his opinions, he's not exactly leery of defending them, so I'd give the benefit of the doubt.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi everyone,

sorry - RL issues indeed kept me from posting earlier and the build is not completely ready yet (thanks for the PM, Math_Mage). Will very likely post it by the end of this week.

Really sorry for the delay! :smallfrown:

- Giacomo

[Doc Roc]

And there was much rejoicing!

[9mm]

And there was much rejoicing last minute planning!

fixed to represent a different reality

[Doc Roc]

All quiet on the western front, dudes.
Sup with this?

[Math_Mage]

All quiet on the western front, dudes.
Sup with this?

Good question. He's been out a good 50 hours.

[Sir Giacomo]

Sorry guys,

Will post at long last tomorrow night- a lot of work and traveling away from internet connection lately...

- Giacomo

[9mm]

Sorry guys,

Will post at long last tomorrow night- a lot of work and traveling away from internet connection lately...

- Giacomo
just get a link to your sheet in my pm box as soon as you can...

[Sir Giacomo]

Done!
Looking forward to how this will work out...

- Giacomo

[9mm]

just a reminder, I would greatly appreciate if both players get their characters in on a sheet on mythweavers(or similar site) and send me the links to them.

[Sir Giacomo]

Ok, I'll give it a try (I tried mythweavers before and it somehow did not work). Might take until tomorrow.

- Giacomo

[Doc Roc]

Guff is literally the most complicated character other than Bree that I've ever sheeted. It's taking some time, hope to have it done tomorrow night.

[Sir Giacomo]

At long last I did a sheeted version of Neo, PMed to 9mm. Sorry for the delay!

And I'm looking forward to Guff! "Most complicated" sounds both extremely powerful and difficult to play - possibly more difficult to play than a monk, at any rate...:smallsmile:

Whatever the outcome, it may be interesting/inspiring for people after the duel to have a look at both characters and see what can be done in those very high levels.

- Giacomo

[Doc Roc]

All that's left is inventory.
Question for 9.

When can I gate? Can I buy castings if I use divination to find willing casters? What happens if I use the drain-resto shuffle to escape the xp costs?

[Doc Roc]

Guff appears complete.

[Claudius Maximus]

Any chance I could get my mitts on Gia's sheet, perhaps by PM?

Sorry I haven't asked this before; I was busy with Guff, and Doc's not kidding about the complexity.

[9mm]

Any chance I could get my mitts on Gia's sheet, perhaps by PM?

Sorry I haven't asked this before; I was busy with Guff, and Doc's not kidding about the complexity.
apologies on late responces... real life got in the way

I have just got my mitts on gia's... I'll send it along after work (I'm a baaaad boy) for you to check out.

For Gia

Cube of force only covers a single side, it doesn't create an actual cube, so it will only hinder your movement as the chart dictates.

yes, intellegent items are allowed .


For DocRoc

you may beginn casting gate the moment prep time starts like all other calling spells (read the moment I begin the senario) however Resteration will not heal XP burned in the casting of spells as it specificly calls out level drain and the negetive level condition.


all rullings above however was based of a quick srd look; I'll check my physical DMG when I get home, so stay tuned kids.

[9mm]

Attention: it is officially ONE MONTH before I return to college. So are ya'll serious about doing this or not?

[Doc Roc]

Yes I am. Sorry for my abrupt disappearance. I left my charger in the wrong house.

[Sir Giacomo]

I am, too. However, it's right now some of the busiest months of my life, plus I'll be away from the internet most of the times in September.
But I'll give my best!

My character is almost done. Claudius Maximus found some minor mistakes in equipment, skill bonuses and a bonus on one of the weapons.
9mm, could you also answer the questions I PMed to you?

Hope to have everything ready on Monday.

- Giacomo

[9mm]

I am, too. However, it's right now some of the busiest months of my life, plus I'll be away from the internet most of the times in September.
But I'll give my best!

My character is almost done. Claudius Maximus found some minor mistakes in equipment, skill bonuses and a bonus on one of the weapons.
9mm, could you also answer the questions I PMed to you?

Hope to have everything ready on Monday.

- Giacomo

you mean the questions I answered on page 2? or have you sent a second pm I haven't recieved?

[Sir Giacomo]

you mean the questions I answered on page 2? or have you sent a second pm I haven't recieved?

ok, thx, then I consider the rest of my questions/build issues as Ok, but will PM you again for remaining clarifications by tomorrow.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

I PMed the build adjusted for remaining issues to 9mm and Claudius Maximus.

Hope everything is OK now - and sorry again for the delay!

- Giacomo

[Doc Roc]

At this rate, we could have just run tons of SGTs.

[Math_Mage]

At this rate, we could have just run tons of SGTs.

Oh, yes, of co-wait, what's an SGT?

[DragoonWraith]

Same Game Test.

[Doc Roc]

Basically, the idea is that you limit down the variables, and run a ton of PvE encounters. It works well in most games, but D&D has so many different components to it, ranging from the deterministic (gear selection) to the virtually indefinable (GM preference) that the best the community could come up with was a set of pre-defined challenges, and a long list of gentlefolk's agreements.

The problem, naturally, with SGTs is that without these agreements, they're senseless, and with them, they are prone to effective contamination via what you could comfortably call a selection bias.

[Doc Roc]

Any thing going on here?

[Sir Giacomo]

well, provided 9mm and Claudius_Maximus gave green light to my last revisions, the monk would be ready to go.

I think I could learn a lot in this duel since my level 20 gaming experience is fairly limited.

- Giacomo

[Claudius Maximus]

I've had a lot on my plate recently, sorry. I'll probably have the Monk rechecked very soon.

[9mm]

Any thing going on here?

yeah... waiting on you to send me a sheet I can read.

[Doc Roc]

Another?

Here's one. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=224504)
I already PM'd this to you a month and a half ago.

[9mm]

Another?

Here's one. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=224504)
I already PM'd this to you a month and a half ago.


*feels stupid*

=========== Beginning of event 1==============

Both of you, after preparing your daily preparations suddenly feel as though you are falling endlessly; the world, if you could call it that, is not a blur but an amazing Technicolor light show... on acid.

in your brains, you hear the following:

"I have searched the sphere's for many, and have selected you. We are the Beyonder, and your souls are mine. If you wish to have them returned... and your bodies returned to your sphere, you will survive three trials. Here's your first: Deliver the package to it's drop-box on Spellbind mountain, you have 12 hours (this is prep time) to prepare and begin your trial before penalties are levied."

After the voice finishes, the world also stops. you find yourself in the middle of a seemingly deserted town in the desert. the sand around you turned into glass, 2 feet in front of you is a perfectly round crystal. Over head the sky is full of insects, that don't seem completely there.As you continue to orient yourself heads begin appearing in windows and door ways. the voice booms into your head once, "3 more things, failure to complete and survive the trials will result in you joining all others who failed to an eternity of observation of our events, never to participate ever again; 2 the first to complete the trials gains a boon not even the gods can grant, and 3 welcome to Altera."

Players starting locations:

Gia: the town of JonW'yne
Doc Roc: the Town of Eastwood

[Sir Giacomo]

Well, an interesting kind of duel...but here we go. Sheet has been updated a final time to reflect the last things that Claudius_Maximus found.

Neo's first actions...


"Well, you could have just left out the Gestapo crap and asked me..."
Neo - looking exactly as known from the Matrix trilogy part 2 and 3 - draws (move action) and gazes through his sunglasses and his gem of true seeing, asking his Vox, his intelligent item, to detect magic in the near vicinity, focusing on the crystal first. He also readies an action to use empty body for 2 rounds the moment someone attacks him.
What does he see?
Checking for hidden/ambushing activity:
[roll0]
[roll1]
He also checks for active spell effects when his item notices magic in the vicinity within 60ft
[roll2]



-Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

just noticed what I forgot / includes edit


Vox will also notice attackers/hidden creatures within 120ft due to its blindsense ability. As such, Neo's spot and listen check is more for the range beyond (the spot check may be helpful to see and not only pinpoint creatures within 120ft).
Edit: coming to think about it longer, the readied action to an attack is not empty body, but rather activating the cube of force to keep out magic. Edit end.

[9mm]

Gia:
the crystal gives off an undetermined magic aura

this is a reminder you are in prep time... anything else you want to do?

[Sir Giacomo]

Neo prep time actions part I


Well, since there does not appear to be any significant threat right now...
Vox continues to watch out for hidden activity and detects magic throughout the areas Neo moves to in the prep time.
Neo casts heroism from the wand.
Then he picks up the crystal. If nothing happens, he puts it into his haversack.
Neo will then try to speak to the people of the town first, trying to find out more about the crystal, the town, the country and where Spellbind mountain is.
[roll0]
He also will fly up to the insects and try to do the same.
[roll1]
Will decide on the rest of the prep time after I see what can be learned from these actions.

[9mm]

Neo prep time actions part I


Well, since there does not appear to be any significant threat right now...
Vox continues to watch out for hidden activity and detects magic throughout the areas Neo moves to in the prep time.
Neo casts heroism from the wand.
Then he picks up the crystal. If nothing happens, he puts it into his haversack.
Neo will then try to speak to the people of the town first, trying to find out more about the crystal, the town, the country and where Spellbind mountain is.
[roll0]
He also will fly up to the insects and try to do the same.
[roll1]
Will decide on the rest of the prep time after I see what can be learned from these actions.


lets see dem UMD checks for heroism. Second: you are attempting to use diplomacy for a gather information check. re-roll with approptiate skill please.

[Sir Giacomo]

the checks...


Usually, the UMD mod at +19 is high enough to auto-activate a wand. But I'll roll it from now on unless you tell me otherwise.
[roll0]

Then, good idea about the gather information check! But the diplomacy checks were for getting initial information from creatures that were already there (the two checks are basically for only one random member of the insects and people, sorry about the misunderstanding).
Diplomacy can make them helpful.
But of course diplomacy is vastly inferior to gather information from a whole town. Diplomacy would not make me necessarily find the right people, and Neo would have to make a diplomacy check for every inhabitant he can find- taking a minute each.
Just let me know what Neo learns from his initial contacts with diplomacy as well.(including more description of the people, the town and the insects- are the insects unusually large? Intelligent? Are the people humans?
[roll1] to see whether the people and/or insects are of undead, outsider, magical beast, construct or dragon type).
Afterwards, he'll have a first attempt to gather information, about spellbind mountain in particular.
[roll2]

[Doc Roc]

Commodore Guff Prep Pt 1

My first action is to gate in a planetar, and enter into arrangements for its services in assisting completing the three challenges. As this is not an immediate task, I am prepared to pay and bargain. If I need to make a check, I will be casting moment of prescience and cracking it for the +20.

My next course of action is to gate in a balor, under the rules of immediate task, and ask it in unambiguous terms to lower its SR and fail its next save so that I can buff it for the upcoming battle with the forces of good. It's obligated by the wording of gate to obey, and it's a pretty convincing spiel anyway. I look the part of the evvvvvvvil wizard even if I am neutral good aligned.

As soon as it obeys, and it will, I cast magic jar on it. I then use the magic jar trick to end up in permanent possession of its body. This, incidentally, also gives me its sweet whip, which is definitely the important part.

Definitely.

The magic jar trick

Jar into something.
Cast Jar again, into something else.
Drag the first body out of range of the original spell.
Break the gem. The language of the spell has no provision for this.
The first spell is over, but you are still in the second body.
Revert to the first body.
It's yours forever.



Yet More Prep, assuming I don't have all-days up.

I will then start casting magic weapon and get my Planetar to go about casting magic vestements on my golems, armors, and such.

I had a list of buffs, but it's been so long that I'll have to rebuild it. Suffice to say that I believe it's 5 castings of Magic Weapon, Greater, and 7 of Magic Vestments.


Yet More.

Following all of this, I will Quicken a stone-to-flesh, aim it at my alpha golem. This turns off the poor bugger's magic immunity. I spend a full round action to possess it, via my still active magic jar spell, having ordered it to fail its save. I then tuck my balor body in my portable hole, fold the hole up until it is the width of my magic jar gem, and slide the gem in so that it is crossing the planar boundaries. I'll then use a bit of glue and some finagling to fix it in place. I tuck this inside the chest cavity of my new stony form, and slide the access panel shut. It is terribly clear that I have done this before.

I am now a souped-up greater stone golem, stone-cold chilling. It is now about 15 minutes into my prep time.

[9mm]

Commodore Guff Prep Pt 1

My first action is to gate in a planetar, and enter into arrangements for its services in assisting completing the three challenges. As this is not an immediate task, I am prepared to pay and bargain. If I need to make a check, I will be casting moment of prescience and cracking it for the +20.

My next course of action is to gate in a balor, under the rules of immediate task, and ask it in unambiguous terms to lower its SR and fail its next save so that I can buff it for the upcoming battle with the forces of good. It's obligated by the wording of gate to obey, and it's a pretty convincing spiel anyway. I look the part of the evvvvvvvil wizard even if I am neutral good aligned.

As soon as it obeys, and it will, I cast magic jar on it. I then use the magic jar trick to end up in permanent possession of its body. This, incidentally, also gives me its sweet whip, which is definitely the important part.

Definitely.

The magic jar trick

Jar into something.
Cast Jar again, into something else.
Drag the first body out of range of the original spell.
Break the gem. The language of the spell has no provision for this.
The first spell is over, but you are still in the second body.
Revert to the first body.
It's yours forever.



Yet More Prep, assuming I don't have all-days up.

I will then start casting magic weapon and get my Planetar to go about casting magic vestements on my golems, armors, and such.

I had a list of buffs, but it's been so long that I'll have to rebuild it. Suffice to say that I believe it's 5 castings of Magic Weapon, Greater, and 7 of Magic Vestments.


Yet More.

Following all of this, I will Quicken a stone-to-flesh, aim it at my alpha golem. This turns off the poor bugger's magic immunity. I spend a full round action to possess it, via my still active magic jar spell, having ordered it to fail its save. I then tuck my balor body in my portable hole, fold the hole up until it is the width of my magic jar gem, and slide the gem in so that it is crossing the planar boundaries. I'll then use a bit of glue and some finagling to fix it in place. I tuck this inside the chest cavity of my new stony form, and slide the access panel shut. It is terribly clear that I have done this before.

I am now a souped-up greater stone golem, stone-cold chilling. It is now about 15 minutes into my prep time.

Observer roles:

[roll0] to Planatar
[roll1] to Balor


Doc

when you gate in the planatar you notice it is worse for wear, like something was having it for lunch at the time of the summoning; so does the Balor, but to a lesser extent. also what is your intial offering to the Planatar for it's services?

[Doc Roc]

"Half the monk's equipment, and half of any incidental loot. Free resurrection or equivalent services in case of mortal injuries."

Rem: We share the same alignment.

I'll have the planetar heal itself in any case, and heal the balor after I finish my......... long-term housing negotiations.:smallcool:


Do I get a knowledge check to figure out what the bloody hell happened here?




An observer thread might be good.

[Math_Mage]

Doc Roc, 9mm:Are the characters aware of the other's existence specifically, as opposed to merely the existence of other contestants? For example, does Guff know to offer the planetar half of "the monk's" equipment? The offer's wording can be changed slightly to proceed without a hitch; but it could become important later.

[Sir Giacomo]

I second the idea of an observer/discussion thread that both Doc Roc and me will not have a look at until after the match(es).:smallsmile:

Meanwhile, waiting for what can be learned during the prep time...then I'll post the rest of Neos actions in the prep time.

- Giacomo

[9mm]

Doc Roc, 9mm:Are the characters aware of the other's existence specifically, as opposed to merely the existence of other contestants? For example, does Guff know to offer the planetar half of "the monk's" equipment? The offer's wording can be changed slightly to proceed without a hitch; but it could become important later.

Math mage

thats what the "package" spheres is for; they are paired. the Beyonder has had people who just didn't care and ignored the trials before. the moment doc picks up his sphere another message plays to both of them.


Doc:

you'll have no idea as what happened as this does not happen in your native crystal sphere. you also are not aware of the monk... yet.


Gia:
I'm currently rolling a crap ton of dice on a chart; I'll let you know what you learn in a bit.

General public:
It is currently a x2 experience and drop rate weekend on my MMO of choice... expect slow responses.

[Doc Roc]

I'll pick up my sphere and waggle it until magical voices come out I guess. Whatever.

[Aharon]

As there isn't an observer thread yet, I will post my observation/question here.

Observers/9mm/Doc Roc

I'm especially interested in the magic jar trick, I have a few questions concerning it:
1. Casting Magic Jar is a standard action, trying to possess something is a full round action. If the Magic Jar isn't silent and stilled (which Doc Roc didn't mention), the Balor with its +30 spellcraft check would identify the spell cast, and with its intelligence of 24 might get a bit suspicious about what this caster is trying to do, and might be allowed to disobey the order.
2. Balors have Unholy Aura at will. There's no reason for them not to renew it every 20 rounds, indeed the recommended tactics section in the SRD mentions they use it before combats. Unholy Aura blocks possession attempts.
3. Those problems can be worked around, but I think the magic jar trick has another hole (please correct me/explain to me why if I'm wrong):

Destroying the receptacle ends the spell, and the spell can be dispelled at either the magic jar or at the host’s location.
This triggers

If the spell ends while you are in a host, you return to your body (or die, if it is out of range of your current position)
So, unless I missed something, Commodore Guff ends up dead.

Actually, I'm quite sure I missed something, but I tried for half an hour what and didn't see it, so I ask you to please explain in more detail why this works as Doc Roc described.

[Doc Roc]

Sadly, as it is an immediate task, no bargaining is involved. The Balor just sits down, shuts up, and obeys.
If this not the case, then I'll alter my run-up a bit to have a nice facade in place.

Axiom: Spell effects are independent.
Axiom: Magic Jar isn't duplicative in its effect.
Counter-Axiom: If it is, the trick is easier thanks to the wording on duplicative effects.

The key to the M'jar trick is that I am not in a host, from the standpoint of the first M'Jar, when I terminate the first MJ by breaking the gem. Spells are independent of each other, and the effects of the second MJ in this case isn't a duplicate effect. From the standpoint of the second magic jar spell, the body I started in is my original body. When it expires, I just fall back to whatever I left.

I could certainly vacate my host-body in other ways, in any case, such as astral projection, which I believe I have in my spell book as a contingency if the simple form of the trick does not meet with community approval.

[Aharon]

@9mm:
Is it ok if I occasionally put a question here before the commentary thread is up? Otherwise, I'll shut up from now on.

@DocRoc/9mm/observers

@MJ-Trick:
Thanks for the explanation! I understand, and agree that it would work.

@Gate
If you have total control over it, as the spell normally works, you wouldn't have to go through the "I'll try to convince it we're going to fight the forces of good" part and just order it to lower its SR and give up its will save so that you can take over its body. I assumed 9mm put in a houserule on Gate because he wanted to make a concession to Giacomo's objections:

Specifically, I took the line "immediate tasks are declared on summoning, at which point, the creature will move to accomplish that task to the best of it's ability. You do not, however, have direct total control over it." in those house rules to mean that you can't just order it to basically sit down and die.

In the setup you described, it might decide that it can help you better in the upcoming battle against the forces of good if it retains the control of its own body. Also, assuming the Balor is allowed to use its abilities to get its body back, couldn't it use its greater dispel magic SLA on the gem it is in to end the spell before it permanently loses it's body?

Another Nitpick: you also didn't make the knowledge checks to know planetars and balors, but unless 9mm decides to make these checks unusually high for some reason (that is, higher than the usual 10+HD), you would have made them anyway.

[Doc Roc]

Obsv.

My base know checks in the relevant stuff is +36 or so. I auto-make the test.

That's a good point regarding lack of direct control. Let's see what 9mm says. I may, obviously, have to seriously restructure my initial prep if that is illegal.
Alternatively, I can just have the planetar counter-spell, probably. Hum, options, options.

[Sir Giacomo]

A reminder at this point:

I'll be gone on vacation starting next Sunday and will only have very limited internet access for four weeks.
So maybe Doc Roc's challenge(s) until wizard and monk meet can be continued during that time.

I'm very interested in seeing this continue if all agree- I see it as some sort of long-running test, anyhow.

- Giacomo

[Doc Roc]

Waiting on 9mm here.

[Claudius Maximus]

Doc Roc/Observers:

Alternatively, I can just have the planetar counter-spell, probably. Hum, options, options.
I just wanted to note that SLAs can not counterspell or be counterspelled.

[Doc Roc]

It is now imminently obvious I've spent too long away.

[Sir Giacomo]

I have an imminent feeling that I will not get beyond the prep time phase before my holidays...:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Well...
...I guess that is it for the time being from my side.
Possibly I can post in between, but I'll be back again for full play by the end of September.

Seeya all

- Giacomo

[9mm]

moving back into dorms are taking awhile...

[Sir Giacomo]

Well, I'm back...:smallsmile: (will PM to the others...)

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, I did PM, and both 9mm and Doc Roc seem to be absent for now.
I'll just wait for a while then...

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmmm... I gues I'll wait until the end of this month (Halloween, how fitting) and then post the monk that I built for this duel - for all those who might be interested. Also, I'll then look at the rest of the thread and what had happend so far.

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

OK... I think it makes no use to continue with this duel, for two reasons.

The first reason is quite obvious :smallsmile: (DM and opponent not posting anymore, myself also to blame for taking too long to post here initially).
This confirms my suspicion that a duel of such proportion is simply taking too long to be of use for seeing whether in core a non-caster can be equal to a caster at these high levels.
As announced for those interested and still checking this thread to make up their own mind as do how this duel could have played out:
here is the link to my level 20 core monk. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=223921)

(Some comments of mine on this monk build:)

Frankly I cannot say how such a character would fare against a core level 20 wizard, in particular in a setting such as this where research/info-gathering would likely have been key - where the wizard is clearly ahead.
I never maintained that a monk or other non-caster could beat a wizard at this game, only that broadly in adventuring it had a similar impact, including combat.
This straight levels 1-20 monk build is fairly maxed (probably could be taken well further), including making use of polymorphing (where a monk excels having no armour or weapons of any significance and preserving all his class abilities). I feel that this monk can
- overcome all MM monsters of CR 1-20, possibly also the higher ones.
- Similarly have a good chance to defeat all npcs (with npc wealth) of that level range, including casters - barring really good spell combinations (all spells per se this monk should be able to find some way around/protection against, due to his many good defenses)
- in part due to 7 attacks/round doing around 30 damage each (can easily be boosted further with huge polymorph forms), buffed attack bonus near +40, AC in the low 50s, a stunning fist DC at 30 nothing to be scoffed at on top of all attacks/round.
- thanks to an intelligent item, he can move/teleport and full attack, as well as some useful low-level divination spells.
- can get etheral at will, has true seeing available, as well as blindsight.
- add to this good stealth, perception (with blindsense) and diplomacy skills (the latter good for all kinds of creatures due to his monk class ability).
- one thing where he is lacking is that he only has the teleport/AMF/AoO attack trick vs really powerful casters. I think it would have worked vs Doc Roc's wizard, but I may be mistaken.
- another thing I'm not happy with is the ranged attack capability (quite weak longbow with 1d8+9+2d6 damage vs baned foes only). Will think on this more in the future.


The second reason is that after having read this thread and Doc Roc's wizard build (see post 75 for link), I simply think that the differences in rules interpretation would have been too big to overcome for the purposes of such a duel.

Here are examples of what I mean:
- even though there was a big controversy about how the spell gate should be interpreted at the beginning of this thread and Doc Roc saying he planned not to use it, it was the first thing he did to gain allies in his prep time. More about why I have also issues with this the way it was used below.
- similarly, it was clarified in the beginning that both characters would receive normal wbl. However, Doc Roc vastly exceeded the 765,000 gold for level 20 characters (including paying x5 gold for his one-off items like gate scrolls), likely thinking his golem creation feats would allow him to get the three golems cheaper with golem manuals providing the XP. I repeatedly have argued that item creation feats should NOT allow casters to get more wbl than others (or you could have elven monks at level 1 get 20,000 starting gold since they could have used their perform skills for 50 years prior to adventuring, a fighter could have inherited a castle and lands, and a rogue could simply steal what he needs).

But these two issues would have hardly mattered, I think.

The problems showing that there are significantly different rules interpretations between Doc Roc, 9mm, Math_Mage on the one hand and me on the other are rather the following imo:
- first calling a planetar and going into prolonged negotiations on services (including with +20 moment of prescience roll convincing this creature of utter goodness of the worthiness of this alliance) and then going to call a balor next thing to do a necromantic spell (mind jar) is stretching the way a DM is supposed to play npcs. The planetar, seeing the alliance of good clearly broken by the wizard, would have either left in disgust or punished the wizard accordingly.
- I do not know whether an "immediate service" (not the plural being used by the spell) encompasses 1) lowering a save AND 2) lowering the SR. Anyway, the magic jar would not have worked on the balor since, as Aharon rightfully mentioned, it is highly likely that it had unholy aura up.
- even worse, it is not quite clear whether entering a gem for then doing the Mind jar thing on the balor during the gate spell wouldn't mean losing control (you have no longer line of effect for the purpose of anything but the mind jar itself I think). Highly tricky.

Then, even supposing the magic jar had worked on the balor, what happened next in Doc Roc's prep time completely confused me.
(Mind you: I think the idea to use mind jar to get a more powerful body for combat while hiding your own body in safety is good - but has it risks, drawbacks (more on those below) and, above all, only has a limited duration).
Some instances where I would see the rules work differently:
- casting Magic Jar a second time does not make the effect of the first magic jar when it expires permanent. The text provides no explicit mention of this, so the usual duration entry holds.
- moving the first jar out of range from the host and/or putting the jar and one of the host bodies into an extradimensional space like that of a portable hole will mean the wizard dies after the spell expires (out of range).
- golems as constructs are immune to necromancy spells, so the magic jar would not have worked on them. This is ontop of their normal magic immunity, since stone to flesh does not change their type.
- it is not exactly clear whether the golem-making allows including hidden compartments into the stone structure without impairing any of the golem functions. DM-dependent and thus should not be used in a duel imo.
- similarly, I am unsure whether golems can speak at all and whether their stone hands are able to do the fine gestures of somatic components. Usually creatures that can do spellcasting and/or speak languages can be assumed to provide the necessary physical properties for verbal and somatic spell components, but a stone golem? I don't know (in favour of at least being able to speak when the spirit is intelligent enough is that for all golems the inability to speak is explicitly mentioned, but not for the stone golem). Again, a DM's call I'd say.
- some of the items like the contingency circlet would not fit on the golem's body. Or a second one in the correct size is added (should not be a big problem).
- it is somewhat tricky whether the supernatural spell immunity would be counted as "automatic" or "supernatural" for the purpose of the magic jar spell. This would also then affect whether the planetar (in case it still were around) or the wizard could buff the stone golem at all with spells allowing SR.

That's about it.

Likely I'll never try to do a level 20 duel again on these boards for the above reasons:
- too much time needed
- too many different rules interpretations or instances where rules conflicts can arise.

- Giacomo