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Eloi
2010-06-03, 09:08 PM
I noticed that the 'best' optimized character builds are evil. To wit:

Pun-Pun, with the ability to turn into a Sarrukh being the base of its power, has the Sarrukh being typically Neutral Evil.
War Hulking Hurler is Lolth-touched and thus Chaotic Evil
Illithid Savants are and worship a Lawful Evil deity.

So, from a mechanics standpoint, Evil is the most powerful force in the universe. I wonder what kind of cosmology these munchkin gods would make, if there are actually the most powerful beings in any D&D setting barring 0th law.

Well, Pun-Pun has the ability to create any type of creature, so he can be the creator of the world. Being the munchkin that it is, it will probably only create things with good stats.
The War Hulking Hurler has the ability to kill things. Really, really well. So he could introduce the overpowerful beings to warfare and start its chaos.
The Illithid Savants will make every single sentient being its slave/food supply, and thus maintain order by oppresive work regimes.

Thus if a D&D cosmology were ruled by the opti-build trio, it'd be an ever warring world full of over-powered slaves battling for little reason for gods they can never hope to topple.

What are your thoughts on this trend for Evil=Good Optimized Build, is there any known breaks, and what do you think a cosmology governed by the three munchkin Gods would be like?

Private-Prinny
2010-06-03, 09:14 PM
I came in expecting some Stormwind Fallacy. I am pleasantly surprised.

On another note: Cancer Mage, abused for NI STR, requires an Evil alignment. And in the actual D&D cosmology, it's strongly implied, if not outright stated, that either demons or devils could curb-stomp the Upper Planes, and that the Blood War is the only thing keeping the Angels safe.

Marriclay
2010-06-03, 09:14 PM
I have to disagree with the OP.

Sarrukh, as you mentioned, are neutral evil. that says nothing for the individual kobold that becomes pun-pun

War Hulking Hurler doesn't have to be lolth touched - hells, the war hulk PrC by itself is broken, and all that it requires is that you be large and good in combat, and the hulking hurler class isn't even that mean. Combining the classes together is broken, yes, but by no means inherently evil

the only one I agree with you on is the illithid savant

sofawall
2010-06-03, 09:15 PM
Pun-Pun is a Paladin. A LG one.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-03, 09:16 PM
Pun-Pun is a Paladin. A LG one.

Wrong. That Pun-Pun build calls for Pazuzu, which shifts him to NG and causes him to fall.

Mr.Bookworm
2010-06-03, 09:17 PM
Pun-Pun is a Paladin. A LG one.

Though that particular build involves contracting out to demon lord, so perhaps not.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-03, 09:18 PM
IIRC using the Pazuzu method (fastest way AFAIK) shifted your aligment one step towards CE per wish

EDIT: I failed my spot check, there too many ninja

PId6
2010-06-03, 09:19 PM
IIRC using the Pazuzu method (fastest way AFAIK) shifted your aligment one step towards CE per wish
But you only need one. NG is still Good.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-06-03, 09:21 PM
But you only need one. NG is still Good.

Hmm I thought you used more wishes

Runestar
2010-06-03, 09:22 PM
Wrong. That Pun-Pun build calls for Pazuzu, which shifts him to NG and causes him to fall.

I thought no harm comes to a paladin who uses wish for the 1st time? The entry explicitly states that Pazuzu goes to great pains to ensure this.

Prodan
2010-06-03, 09:23 PM
Because Good is dumb.

Private-Prinny
2010-06-03, 09:23 PM
I thought no harm comes to a paladin who uses wish for the 1st time? The entry explicitly states that Pazuzu goes to great pains to ensure this.

That just means there's no "You didn't wish to not be on fire" shenanigans. It still shifts his alignment.

PId6
2010-06-03, 09:25 PM
Hmm I thought you used more wishes
You get those from Gated Efreets, not from Pazuzu.

Weezer
2010-06-03, 09:26 PM
And don't forget two staples of TO, Ur-Priest and Tainted Scholar. For the first the prereq is to be evil and the second one gains its power by tainting itself with pure evilness.

Eloi
2010-06-03, 09:31 PM
I have to disagree with the OP.

Sarrukh, as you mentioned, are neutral evil. that says nothing for the individual kobold that becomes pun-pun

War Hulking Hurler doesn't have to be lolth touched - hells, the war hulk PrC by itself is broken, and all that it requires is that you be large and good in combat, and the hulking hurler class isn't even that mean. Combining the classes together is broken, yes, but by no means inherently evil

the only one I agree with you on is the illithid savant

a) Kobolds are typically Lawful Evil. That still doesn't change anything.
b) Yes, because something that just focuses solely on killing everything and has no intelligent skills is sure to be of good-morals and sane-mind, right?

Siosilvar
2010-06-03, 09:32 PM
You get those from Gated Efreets, not from Pazuzu.

Efreet are evil. Using Gate to call one makes it an [Evil] spell. One could argue that using items that duplicate [Evil] spells is just as bad as casting the [Evil] spell yourself.

PersonMan
2010-06-03, 09:36 PM
b) Yes, because a warrior who just focuses on killing everything and has no intelligent skills is sure to be of good-morals and sane-mind, right?

Why not? How are most DnD characters different? They just only go after acceptable targets-like if a modern axe-crazy murderer wouldn't be arrested/whatever if he only killed criminals or something. Just because they have "Good" on their sheets doesn't mean that what they do is that much different than ones with "Neutral" or "Evil" on their sheets.

Eloi
2010-06-03, 09:39 PM
Why not? How are most DnD characters different? They just only go after acceptable targets-like if a modern axe-crazy murderer wouldn't be arrested/whatever if he only killed criminals or something. Just because they have "Good" on their sheets doesn't mean that what they do is that much different than ones with "Neutral" or "Evil" on their sheets.

*sigh* Okay, okay. I'm just going off what the character build itself says:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/War_Hulking_Hurler_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build )
And according to it the Lolth-touched is one of the templates needed for the opti build, making the character build evil.
But thats not my point.
My point is that evil things seem to be the more powerful, like if you were say to remove the Lolth-touched template from the opti-build it'd probably be less powerful, and same with the alterations with Pun-Pun. It just seems to me that Evil is stronger than good in D&D mechanically.

Marriclay
2010-06-03, 09:42 PM
a) Kobolds are typically Lawful Evil. That still doesn't change anything.
b) Yes, because something that just focuses solely on killing everything and has no intelligent skills is sure to be of good-morals and sane-mind, right?

A) it says usually. Just because 50% of kobolds are lawful evil that doesn't mean the individual is, otherwise every dwarf would be lawful good, every elf would be chaotic good, and we'd never have monster characters. Alignments are not a straitjacket, and individuals don't have to be controlled by the mindsets of their peers

B) so what your saying is that, on a lesser level, a man who trains himself with a sword to exclusion of all else, with the intent of using those skills to protect his home is just as evil, or is it just on a smaller scale? intentions are what define an alignment, not skills or training
It just seems to me that Evil is stronger than good in D&D mechanically.

how can you expect to be a hero if the odds against aren't you impossible? :smallsmile:

Eloi
2010-06-03, 09:48 PM
A) it says usually. Just because 50% of kobolds are lawful evil that doesn't mean the individual is, otherwise every dwarf would be lawful good, every elf would be chaotic good, and we'd never have monster characters. Alignments are not a straitjacket, and individuals don't have to be controlled by the mindsets of their peers
I realize that. My Species Doth Protest Too Much and all that lot. Lawful Good drow and stuff like that. I understand that, but in the character builds ,they seem to favor the evil options.



B) so what your saying is that, on a lesser level, a man who trains himself with a sword to exclusion of all else, with the intent of using those skills to protect his home is just as evil, or is it just on a smaller scale? intentions are what define an alignment, not skills or training
This is a debate about opti-build alignment-preference not ethics lets not get off-topic.


how can you expect to be a hero if the odds against aren't you impossible? :smallsmile:
Hm, so the mechanics could be to the monsters individual favor mechanically because an adventuring group usually has more members in it than a typical random encounter, such as in Boss fights. Makes sense, but why aren't the good-aligned enemies that evil parties have to face not in opti-builds? No Achrons, Aasimar, Paladins?

Marriclay
2010-06-03, 09:54 PM
Hm, so the mechanics could be to the monsters individual favor mechanically because an adventuring group usually has more members in it than a typical random encounter, such as in Boss fights. Makes sense, but why aren't the good-aligned enemies that evil parties have to face not in opti-builds? No Achrons, Aasimar, Paladins?

simple - D&D is a game for heroes, or at least that was how it was based. of course, an evil party could always fight that white robed wizard who is trying to whitewash the world, but generally, since evil turns in on itself, you can also fight evil things. Sure, the war between good and evil is clearly defined, but what most don't realize is that, while evil is bigger, it's also fighting itself. There's just been more writing and support for evil creatures in splatbooks because it's what players will fight more of

The Glyphstone
2010-06-03, 09:58 PM
Why not? How are most DnD characters different? They just only go after acceptable targets-like if a modern axe-crazy murderer wouldn't be arrested/whatever if he only killed criminals or something. .

Well...yes, yes he would. Assuming you're in a country with laws against murder, vigilante murderers still get arrested and sent to prison (maybe a mental hospital), even if they're killing criminals.

Anything more on the subject would wander towards politics, which is a bad thing.

Eloi
2010-06-03, 10:00 PM
simple - D&D is a game for heroes, or at least that was how it was based. of course, an evil party could always fight that white robed wizard who is trying to whitewash the world, but generally, since evil turns in on itself, you can also fight evil things. Sure, the war between good and evil is clearly defined, but what most don't realize is that, while evil is bigger, it's also fighting itself

Hm, so because Evil Isn't One Big Happy Family, there can be a balance between Good and Evil in D&D, and thus team-work of Adventureres and good factions are one of things keeping it alive. Its also like how munchkins, while still having 'fun' bashing the rules, will never have the wonderful experience that everyone else enjoys by cooperating. I like that premise, its uplifting. :smallsmile:

Optimystik
2010-06-03, 10:22 PM
Congratulations on your sleuthing, OP - Evil Is Easy! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilIsEasy) Next you'll be telling us that monks are underpowered and vorpal swords are sharp :smalltongue:

PersonMan
2010-06-03, 10:22 PM
Well...yes, yes he would. Assuming you're in a country with laws against murder, vigilante murderers still get arrested and sent to prison (maybe a mental hospital), even if they're killing criminals.

Anything more on the subject would wander towards politics, which is a bad thing.

I...used unclear terms. What I meant to say was that if such a person was pardoned as long as he only targeted criminals, he'd be like a "good" DnD party.

And you're right. Let's get back to...whatever we were talking about.

Devils_Advocate
2010-06-04, 02:15 PM
Eloi, of course Evil gets most of the powerful stuff. Evil gets most of the weak stuff, too. Evil gets most of the stuff, period. The D&D multiverse is naturally slanted towards Evil and Chaos. The Abyss has more layers than all of the other planes put together. There are more Evil monsters than Good ones. And so on and so forth.

The reason that Good can hold out against Evil is that Good creatures and factions work together, largely because the overabundance of Evil necessitates this. Evil creatures and factions fight for dominance. The Blood War is merely the epitome of this.


so what your saying is that, on a lesser level, a man who trains himself with a sword to exclusion of all else, with the intent of using those skills to protect his home is just as evil, or is it just on a smaller scale? intentions are what define an alignment, not skills or training
If you want to help people, you can become a teacher, a healer, or any number of things. Blacksmith would be a perfectly good choice, if your village is short on blacksmiths. For example. There are lots of services that you can provide for others, in large part because society is set up so that people can get what they want, often through the assistance of other people.

On the other hand, the number of ways in which one can cruelly exploit others is fairly limited. There are relatively few skill-sets with which to do this effectively and relatively few positions from which to do this effectively. Leader. Representative. Bureaucrat. Businessman. Criminal. Warrior.

It's not that people with those vocations can't benevolently (or not) fulfill vital functions and even be loved for what they do. They totally can. But the screwing over of people is concentrated within certain professions, and thus activity within those professions is statistically more likely to involve screwing people over. This can lead to the unfair perception of an entire profession and everyone in it as corrupt, because a lot of people are stereotyping simpletons. And that's unfortunate. But you are in fact most likely to find people being great big jerks in the jobs in which it's easiest to be a great big jerk.

(Of course, if your job within one of these professions involves doing whatever work someone pays you to do, then a lot of people are going to very understandably hate you, since you're likely or at least willing to occasionally do bad things for bad people. Because they'll give you money to do them. This is why people hate lawyers, who are largely mercenary bureaucrats, essentially. Still, you may manage to remain relatively moral and/or ethical while holding such a job if it's something that someone's going to do anyway, and you actually try to minimize the damage involved, more or less (http://wiki.lspace.org/wiki/Assassins%27_Guild).)

A random PC-classed NPC's alignment is Evil half of the time. (See DMG p. 110.) The breakdown of 20% Good, 30% Neutral, 50% Evil is roughly the same for just random PC-classed humans, too. I've done the math.

It's stated in the PHB that humans tend towards no alignment. But, evidently, human "adventurers" are as likely to be Evil as not. It would seem that Evil alignment is in fact more common among individuals well-prepared to kill things and take their stuff. This strikes me as appropriate. I would be more surprised were that not the case. For it to be otherwise, Evil individuals would have to prepare to kill things and take their stuff no more often than Good individuals, which does not strike me as plausible. Killin' and stealin' are some of the relatively few viable Evil options, as discussed above. (In particular, almost all of the straightforward ways of being exceptionally Evil are going to involve the use of force.) So, being good at killing everything positively correlates with being Evil. Surprise, surprise.


Thus if a D&D cosmology were ruled by the opti-build trio, it'd be an ever warring world full of over-powered slaves battling for little reason for gods they can never hope to topple.
Well, obviously there are gods who want their peoples to fight each other, but the mortals have to be able to reproduce as quickly as they kill each other off in order for this to be sustainable. So you need a bunch of non-warriors to farm and breed and for that matter supply the raw materials needed for the warriors' equipment (so that your death-dealers don't have to waste time resource-gathering). So what you wind up with is a world that still has relatively ordinary societies, but also exceptional individuals who mostly go out and fight each other rather than peacefully using their extraordinary powers for the betterment of intelligent life.

In other words, you get a setting for a typical D&D campaign. Or a typical superhero comic.


munchkins, while still having 'fun' bashing the rules, will never have the wonderful experience that everyone else enjoys by cooperating.
Those who seek to win against everyone else of course won't be satisfied until they reach a position of complete dominance, which is very difficult to achieve, as There Can Be Only One and there's a lot of competition. This is the problem with Black (to put it in Magic: the Gathering terms): absolute power requires, amongst other things, that no one be able to act against you, and thus it may only be possessed by a single individual. So, ultimately, Black is an inherently adversarial philosophy, however much cooperation it might inspire in the short term.


Evil Is Easy! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilIsEasy)
Though avoiding certain potential consequences of one's Evil deeds may not be. Though it depends. If you can find a socially acceptable -- ideally, socially approved -- and profitable -- ideally, highly profitable -- form of cruelty, then you can really go to town. Just make sure to worship a Lawful Evil deity so that the devils don't get your soul, because I hear that they tend to do unpleasant things to it. You'll probably want to look into what sort of afterlife the Lawful Evil deity offers, for that matter. Shop around. It's important to find the right vengeful, merciless, tyrannical god for you.

lesser_minion
2010-06-04, 02:24 PM
vorpal swords are sharp :smalltongue:

You know, that's never stated. Vorpal Swords are just good at decapitation - they could just as easily be blunt compared with their non-vorpal counterparts.

taltamir
2010-06-04, 02:25 PM
b) Yes, because something that just focuses solely on killing everything and has no intelligent skills is sure to be of good-morals and sane-mind, right?

I present to you roy greenhilt.

I must say I am impressed with this thread, I too expected stormwind...
instead I see you make an excellent point. And I was going to offer further evidence for your claim, such as tainted scholar and cancer mage and ur priest but it was already done by others.

That being said, some of the ultra tricks like the psion save scumming, Io7fV, incantantrix, etc are awesomely broken and powerful without being evil.

hamishspence
2010-06-04, 03:32 PM
A random PC-classed NPC's alignment is Evil half of the time. (See DMG p. 110.) The breakdown of 20% Good, 30% Neutral, 50% Evil is roughly the same for just random PC-classed humans, too. I've done the math.

It's stated in the PHB that humans tend towards no alignment. But, evidently, human "adventurers" are as likely to be Evil as not.

That said, random communities tend to have a distribution slanted slightly more toward Good than evil- for the power centres, in DMG.

In Cityscape- it provides "community alignment" which may differ from power center alignment. Again, evil is rarer than good.

Maybe the "tend toward no alignment" is overall- with the Evil humans tending to leave communities and become adventurers.

Hence- communities are biased more toward Good, and adventurers more toward Evil.

Optimystik
2010-06-04, 03:36 PM
Though avoiding certain potential consequences of one's Evil deeds may not be. Though it depends. If you can find a socially acceptable -- ideally, socially approved -- and profitable -- ideally, highly profitable -- form of cruelty, then you can really go to town. Just make sure to worship a Lawful Evil deity so that the devils don't get your soul, because I hear that they tend to do unpleasant things to it. You'll probably want to look into what sort of afterlife the Lawful Evil deity offers, for that matter. Shop around. It's important to find the right vengeful, merciless, tyrannical god for you.

The trouble is that if you end up dead, said LE deity might not be too happy with you or understanding of circumstances. Bane for instance has little patience for failure. You thus might find yourself handed off to Mephistopheles et al. anyway, despite your precautions - if they feel your soul is worth more as a bargaining chip than as a petitioner.

hamishspence
2010-06-04, 03:38 PM
Pick a LN deity with LE tendencies? "soul goes to home of deity" might override the general rule that devils get LE souls that don't worship LE gods.

Wee Jas falls into LN but amoral and pragmatic- approaching LE.

Eloi
2010-06-04, 05:25 PM
Well, obviously there are gods who want their peoples to fight each other, but the mortals have to be able to reproduce as quickly as they kill each other off in order for this to be sustainable. So you need a bunch of non-warriors to farm and breed and for that matter supply the raw materials needed for the warriors' equipment (so that your death-dealers don't have to waste time resource-gathering). So what you wind up with is a world that still has relatively ordinary societies, but also exceptional individuals who mostly go out and fight each other rather than peacefully using their extraordinary powers for the betterment of intelligent life.

In other words, you get a setting for a typical D&D campaign. Or a typical superhero comic.
Ah, but you forgot I said Pun-Pun creates whatever he wants, its one of his abilities (check his build, its in there), so he can just create more once they die. For that matter, if its only creatures with high stats, they could be mostly Undead, i.e. things that don't need to do anything but fight.
In other words, you get a setting that is similar to constant warring in Hell.

Prime32
2010-06-04, 05:51 PM
In terms of monsters, good is more powerful than evil. A solar is more powerful than either a balor or a pit fiend. A gold dragon is more powerful than a red dragon.

Also, good guys get Apostles of Peace casting luminous armour and gaining the benefits of Vow of Poverty without giving up items. Not to mention the good-aligned brainwashing methods in BoED.

Tinydwarfman
2010-06-04, 06:12 PM
Ah, but you forgot I said Pun-Pun creates whatever he wants, its one of his abilities (check his build, its in there), so he can just create more once they die. For that matter, if its only creatures with high stats, they could be mostly Undead, i.e. things that don't need to do anything but fight.
In other words, you get a setting that is similar to constant warring in Hell.

Um, what? Just because he could turn the world into hell, doesn't mean that he would. He would turn it into the epitome of whatever his alignment was. If he was even interested it doing it at all.

J.Gellert
2010-06-04, 06:22 PM
Well you could have a Paladin-based (and therefore Lawful Good) ubercharger with reach, charging smite, great cleave, and 5-ft steps between cleaves, who can kill an entire party in one action... But its chances are grim if faced with a tainted scholar.

So yeah, evil is cool.

imperialspectre
2010-06-04, 06:34 PM
People in this thread are confusing the existence of printed material with strength. There's more Evil stuff printed, because stat blocks for allies are much less useful than stat blocks for enemies and the D&D designers figured most parties would be Good(ish) fighting Evil. However, there are more powerful Good creatures, because the D&D designers also printed a bunch of monsters that were designed for smiting PCs that had strayed from the path of righteousness.

Additionally, most of the TO and high-end CO material that uses Evil stuff is using Evil, not being Evil. Turning into a Sarrukh to become Pun-Pun, or sandwich-tricking a beholder to become a Beholder Mage, are not evil actions and do not change your alignment (indeed, sandwich-tricking an Evil creature is called out in the astral seed description as being okay, while sandwich-tricking a Good creature is evil). Taint also isn't called out as being Evil, just icky (and it can happen to Good creatures without changing their alignment).

Also, Contingent Atonement/Good Mindrape/etc can always change you back, which means that Good creatures can use [Evil]-descriptor stuff sparingly and still be fine.

Finally, there are way more Good deities printed than Evil deities, which means there's a net advantage to Good (even a DR 1 deity is way stronger than any non-deity, so it doesn't matter that there are lots of balors).

taltamir
2010-06-04, 06:39 PM
Allies? you mean PCs... the game assumes most player parties are good aligned and they fight evil opponents.

The most horribly broken stuff are "evil"... the explicitly "good" things are usually horribly sub par. such as sacred vows..

Although, the absolute best familiar is an eladrin coure.
humanoid, tiny, flying, nearly immune to anything, awesome powers, and can speak (human + can speak = can use UMD to cast from magic items; effectively giving you a "wizard light" companion...)
The reason the course is better than any of the other zillion humanoid tiny flying familiars that can speak is the massive list of immunities and powers it has. (although there are some pretty awesome ones available to others, such as the imp and many mephits)...

The most broken powers are on mephits, but they need not be your familiar to acquire those. Its better to bind mirror mephits and force them to cast simulcarum rather then have one as a familiar. Since you get the spell either way, and the mirror mephit is not nearly as durable.

Gametime
2010-06-04, 07:28 PM
Allies? you mean PCs... the game assumes most player parties are good aligned and they fight evil opponents.

The most horribly broken stuff are "evil"... the explicitly "good" things are usually horribly sub par. such as sacred vows..



To be fair, the explicitly "evil" things usually suck, too. Like the Vile feats - few of them are much better than the Exalted feats, and the ones that are worth taking aren't the ones in the BoVD, if memory serves. (There are some pretty sweet ones in Elder Evils, I believe.)

Really, the issue here is that there is a lot of terrible material printed. Most of the worthwhile stuff isn't alignment specific at all.

Prodan
2010-06-04, 07:41 PM
Really, the issue here is that there is a lot of terrible material printed. Most of the worthwhile stuff isn't alignment specific at all.
Iron! Heart! Surge!

Reserves! of! Strength!

Sillycomic
2010-06-04, 10:39 PM
Maybe we should say evil without resorting to alignment. Because I think a person can do evil things without having an evil alignment. Certainly neutral character by definition sometimes do good acts and sometimes evil, based on whatever they feel is the right thing to do.

And chaotic good alignments will certainly do evil acts if in the end they achieve a greater good. I always thought that was the crux of chaotic good... you always have that "In the end, if I want something to happen, I will make it happen no matter what" mentality in order to save the day.


When I think of a paladin, (even a kobold one) I think of someone with a lifelong ambition to do his God's bidding as a living avatar, seeking out injustice and goodness and life and all of that.

But one old tome of a religion check and he figures out he can get ultimate power if he calls up this evil god? Even if this kobold paladin did figure it out, the only reason he would do it was for evil selfish purposes. How would using the ultimate power that another god gives you help your own cause out at all?

While it may not make him an evil character, it's certainly justified as an evil act.

Unless you want to use the argument that he is doing it for the power to save that orphanage of burning babies over there. In which case, that would still be an evil act. That is an "ends justify the means" mentality.

Another example would be anyone who wanted to use the one ring to try and defeat Saurons armies. So the ring is a little evil, you could still use it for the power for good... and that would still make it good, right?

Sucrose
2010-06-04, 11:57 PM
Maybe we should say evil without resorting to alignment. Because I think a person can do evil things without having an evil alignment. Certainly neutral character by definition sometimes do good acts and sometimes evil, based on whatever they feel is the right thing to do.

And chaotic good alignments will certainly do evil acts if in the end they achieve a greater good. I always thought that was the crux of chaotic good... you always have that "In the end, if I want something to happen, I will make it happen no matter what" mentality in order to save the day.


When I think of a paladin, (even a kobold one) I think of someone with a lifelong ambition to do his God's bidding as a living avatar, seeking out injustice and goodness and life and all of that.

But one old tome of a religion check and he figures out he can get ultimate power if he calls up this evil god? Even if this kobold paladin did figure it out, the only reason he would do it was for evil selfish purposes. How would using the ultimate power that another god gives you help your own cause out at all?

While it may not make him an evil character, it's certainly justified as an evil act.

Unless you want to use the argument that he is doing it for the power to save that orphanage of burning babies over there. In which case, that would still be an evil act. That is an "ends justify the means" mentality.

Another example would be anyone who wanted to use the one ring to try and defeat Saurons armies. So the ring is a little evil, you could still use it for the power for good... and that would still make it good, right?

Flawed analogy. For the Ring to have enough effect for victory, it would need to be worn for the entire battle, whereas the kobold paladin who would be Pun-Pun only needs to be in the corruptive presence of the demon Pazuzu for long enough to get one wish. After that, there is no corruptive influence akin to wearing the One Ring, as he is abusing Wish loops and the power of the Sarrukh all on his own.

Sillycomic
2010-06-05, 12:09 AM
I don't think so.... length of time shouldn't have anything to do with it. It is the willful act of using evil tools for the benefit of yourself and others, even for a noble cause

If it's used to make a single wish, or used for an entire battle, the "ends justify the means" motiff is still there.

Coidzor
2010-06-05, 04:04 AM
I don't think so.... length of time shouldn't have anything to do with it. It is the willful act of using evil tools for the benefit of yourself and others, even for a noble cause

If it's used to make a single wish, or used for an entire battle, the "ends justify the means" motiff is still there.

Yeah, and to objective observers (well as objective as we can be), we can see that the ends do justify the means. :smalltongue:

It's not real life after all.

taltamir
2010-06-05, 05:57 AM
I don't think so.... length of time shouldn't have anything to do with it. It is the willful act of using evil tools for the benefit of yourself and others, even for a noble cause

If it's used to make a single wish, or used for an entire battle, the "ends justify the means" motiff is still there.

what is wrong with using an [evil] tool in a non evil manner?
Those tools are typically evil due to the source of their power...
you didn't create them, you aren't using them to do evil... think of it as community service for the tools, you are "redeeming" them by utilizing said evil tool for good.

It doesn't make you evil / fall... it makes the tools no longer evil / sanctifies them.

Sillycomic
2010-06-05, 07:51 PM
The answer is simple. Once you take that step then you go down a slippery slope that ends with you killing puppies.

It starts with using an evil tool, even though a paladin is pious and good loyal and all that crap. Then you manipulate a sarrukh for no other reason than to grant yourself super immunity powers.

And by the end you are forcing squirrels to recognize you as a new god until you have all the power in the multi-verse. For what purpose? To recreate the universe as you see fit? Have you not seen like half of the action adventure movies out there?

This is the most cliched reason for a supervillain to take power ever! He wants to change things to be HIS way.

And again, I'm not saying the "ends justify the means" route itself is evil. The entire D&D alignment can do evil things for a non evil (or evil or selfish... whatever) purpose. I already said that before.

I am just saying becoming Pun pun is evil. It is selfish power grabbing and in no way embodies what a paladin is supposed to do with himself.

Prodan
2010-06-05, 07:56 PM
I am just saying becoming Pun pun is evil. It is selfish and in no way embodies what a paladin is supposed to do with himself.

Hear hear! Why can't we go back to the good old days of slaughtering goblin villages with reckless abandon?

Flickerdart
2010-06-05, 07:56 PM
Hear hear! Why can't we go back to the good old days of slaughtering goblin villages with reckless abandon?

Cause we ran out.

arguskos
2010-06-05, 08:00 PM
Cause we ran out.
Just use the Save Point trick to get more of them. :smallcool:

The Shadowmind
2010-06-05, 08:24 PM
Another area that evil benefits from: The Fiendish symbiont in the Fiend Folio. If you are good you have to make a daily save or take wisdom damage, and a save to avoid taking a evil act. What do the symbiont grant you? A spell for each level(spellbook casters), extra spells per day, +2 CON, at will rage without the fatigue condition, neutralize poison 1/day, free empower of evil death or negative energy spells, protection from good or chaos, protection from mind effecting spells.

Marriclay
2010-06-05, 08:31 PM
Another area that evil benefits from: The Fiendish symbiont in the Fiend Folio. If you are good you have to make a daily save or take wisdom damage, and a save to avoid taking a evil act. What do the symbiont grant you? A spell for each level(spellbook casters), extra spells per day, +2 CON, at will rage without the fatigue condition, neutralize poison 1/day, free empower of evil death or negative energy spells, protection from good or chaos, protection from mind effecting spells.

wait a second... ye gods! do symbionts count as items? if so, a Hellbred could use on without penalty!

PId6
2010-06-05, 08:34 PM
Another area that evil benefits from: The Fiendish symbiont in the Fiend Folio. If you are good you have to make a daily save or take wisdom damage, and a save to avoid taking a evil act. What do the symbiont grant you? A spell for each level(spellbook casters), extra spells per day, +2 CON, at will rage without the fatigue condition, neutralize poison 1/day, free empower of evil death or negative energy spells, protection from good or chaos, protection from mind effecting spells.
And of course the best thing about them is the fact that they Share Spells, leading to certain nasty builds...

The Shadowmind
2010-06-05, 08:39 PM
And of course the best thing about them is the fact that they Share Spells, leading to certain nasty builds...

Ah, what a gentleman he was.

Ravens_cry
2010-06-05, 08:59 PM
Good has to place limits on what it will do to achieve a goal to still remain good. Evil does not have those limits.
More meta, most 'evil-only' seems also to be code for 'NPC only'. While NPCs are often weaker then players in order to not show them up, NPC's, especially villains, must be stronger then PC's in order to be able to at least pretend to challenge them in solo.
That's my idea anyway.

Marriclay
2010-06-05, 09:42 PM
Good has to place limits on what it will do to achieve a goal to still remain good. Evil does not have those limits.
More meta, most 'evil-only' seems also to be code for 'NPC only'. While NPCs are often weaker then players in order to not show them up, NPC's, especially villains, must be stronger then PC's in order to be able to at least pretend to challenge them in solo.
That's my idea anyway.

In a strange way, that sounds like concentration. you drink water, and all you get is the water, right? add salt, and you can taste it. You have a small amount of salt concentrated in the water. Say you have two cups of water, one with a higher salt content. you pour the cup with the higher content into a salad bowl filled with water. still the same amount of salt, but it is now a lot less concentrated than the cup that started out with less.

the salad bowl's water has more salt, but less concentration. I think that's what's happening with power levels regarding Fantasy stories overall. the good guys just have more concentrated awesome

Coidzor
2010-06-06, 02:38 AM
Cause we ran out.

Oh Peak Gobbo. :smallfrown:

Mnemnosyne
2010-10-05, 12:06 AM
Evil often seems to be tacked onto more powerful options, possibly because the designers know that a large number of DM's decree 'no evil' in their campaigns. Those that allow it are often more experienced. Therefore, putting 'evil required' as a limiter on more powerful options means 'less likely to be used in campaigns with inexperienced DM's and players'.

Whether it actually works out that way in practice or not I have no idea, but that's the way it seems to me. It seems to often be counted as an actual disadvantage that balances against the advantages the class/ability/whatever gives.

dgnslyr
2010-10-05, 12:09 AM
My Detect Undead senses detect necromancy...

Coidzor
2010-10-05, 01:21 AM
Thus if a D&D cosmology were ruled by the opti-build trio, it'd be an ever warring world full of over-powered slaves battling for little reason for gods they can never hope to topple.

What are your thoughts on this trend for Evil=Good Optimized Build, is there any known breaks, and what do you think a cosmology governed by the three munchkin Gods would be like?

So.... Warhammer 40K.

Morithias
2010-10-05, 01:34 AM
Ignoring the whole pun-pun thing I have to agree. Of all the classes and prestige classes I've seen, the one that require evil are generally better than the ones that require good alignment. Ignoring the whole cosmology and canon vs fanon debate, mechanically (which from what I've read the thread was suppose to be about), the evil classes are more powerful than the good ones.

I mean hell look at the Assassin vs the Slayer of Domiel, you have to spend 3 feats that suck to get into the Domiel, and you get one ability that is worthwhile that you don't get from assassin (Divine Grace), meanwhile, Assassin lets you use your 3 feats for whatever, has spells as well, has poison, Death Attack seems to be on average considered better than death touch, and unless I'm mistaken it also has more skill points.

When the only thing your class has to offer that your evil counterpart doesn't can be solved with a 2 level dip in Paladin of Tyranny, you suck.

Edit: Oh and one question, could the Pun-Pun Paladin build be done with the Paladin of Tyranny? I mean LE to NE is still one step towards CE right?

averagejoe
2010-10-05, 01:39 AM
The Mod They Call Me: Thread Necromancy.