PDA

View Full Version : Dealing with destructive Players



Matamane
2010-06-03, 10:27 PM
I'm having a problem with one of the newer players in my group. My dungeon master has asked me to deal with this problem, as I am one of the more experienced players there, but I am unsure of how to go about it, as he has yet to listen to me when I have warned him.

Just a bit of background.

As his first character, he made a tibbit telepath, who has since become a thrallherd. My dm is quite easygoing, so he okay'd this despite this being imo waaaaaaaaay to much character for a new player to handle.

Now for the irritating part. He has decided to be Chaotic Evil, in a party of neutral/good characters. He is using this as an excuse to be a vindictive douchebag, and claim it to be roleplaying. The worst instance of this has been a two hour argument of him trying to steal a party members magic items during combat. He justified this as a jealousy for the characters ability to use magic. This was a nightmare for me and my fellow PC's, and I feel especially sorry for my DM who had to step in after it went nearly too far. Certain things can be attributed to a bad understanding of the game, but overall, this player is a destructive influence to the party.

How should I explain this to him, as he needs to be set straight.

As a general rule, how do you deal with players who decide to go against alignment or ethos solely as a result of greed?

I lol when the Radiant Servant of Pelor refuses to heal someone, because if he heals him then he will be awake to take a share of the treasure.

Mystic Muse
2010-06-03, 10:30 PM
For one, Chaotic evil does not mean you have to be a jerk (I'm even thinking of asking my DM to allow me to play a homebrew version of Pitfiend in a good/Neutral group). If he's jealous of the other player knowing magic he should learn himself since you can't just take magic from somebody and then know it yourself. Heck, if he knew anything about magic he would know that.

Two, tell him he's being a problem. If he responds "I'm just playing my character" say "Maybe you should play a character that can get along with everyone."

Drakevarg
2010-06-03, 10:32 PM
Retort by playing your own character in character. That is to say; if this fellow's being as consistantly interfering as you say, what would your character do about it?

To bad you don't have a saner evil-aligned character in your group. He could just "accidentally" drop his knife into the CE's heart while he was sleeping.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-06-03, 10:33 PM
Doesn't seem like you can deal with it. You're not the DM. You're a fellow player, and thus you don't have the authority. And guess what, people like these? Only way to deal with them is by authority. From the description of the crap that player was pulling, he cannot be swayed with reason. He can only be swayed by someone who is a BIGGER FISH. You are not. You are a fellow player. So as convincing and logical your arguments are going to be, you will fail.

Sorry. Your best bet is to punt it back to the DM, and explain that only he can deal with it.

Matamane
2010-06-03, 10:36 PM
I'm Chaotic Neutral, and I have half a mind to Cunning Strike/Iaijutsu Focus his glass cannon of a psion if he pulls this **** again.

I would like to deal with it in game, but when we're fighting a Green Dragon, and the party is on the losing end, I'd rather deal with the absolute threat. I know my other players would think the same way. Most of us are half tuning him out now, but it's getting to the point of no return.

Unfortunately, my dm is very agreeable, and doesn't want to deal with it, so if I don't do it, it won't get done.

Drakevarg
2010-06-03, 10:37 PM
I'm Chaotic Neutral, and I have half a mind to Cunning Strike his glass cannon of a psion if he pulls this **** again.

Unfortunately, my dm is very agreeable, and doesn't want to deal with it, so if I don't do it, it won't get done.

Yeah, "accidentally" drop the organ-melting toxin into his drink. Gotta be a fast-acting one, so it's work will be done before the cleric notices.

Matamane
2010-06-03, 10:42 PM
Aboleth Mucus would be better in that situation. Our cleric doesn't think enough to prepare air/water breathing, so he's dead in like 3 minutes unless the dm intervenes with the magic of plot device.

R. Shackleford
2010-06-03, 10:42 PM
This is the DM's problem. If the player won't stop being a jerk, then you can either punch him or just stop playing. Assault being a crime, you'd probably just have to stop playing with him. If the entire group agrees, kick him out.

If you really want to send him a message but don't want to kick him out (you'd be a kinder soul than I, I suppose,) the respond in kind. If the DM is allowing him to try and steal from the other PCs, then it clearly must be fine for the PCs to attack one another, or just abandon him or something, if alignment is that big a deal... All of you kill him, tell him to roll a new character. Though nothing can stop him from just doing it after the respawn.

But either way, the DM needs to actually try to keep a handle on things like this. Rule 0'ing would veto something like 'my guy's going to steal from the wizard cuz he's jealous of magic!' Tell your DM that he needs to learn to deal with things like that himself.

Ormagoden
2010-06-03, 10:44 PM
My solutions as a DM is usually this.

Play whatever alignment you want. The party has to get along. (as long as there is no paladin) OK so your Chaotic Evil! you hate everything you want to kill everyone and steal everything, but you know what you don't do it to the party members.

Now someone might say "well that's out of character." my response usually is "Is it out of character to keep the people you travel with happy so they don't kill you in your sleep?" "Be a jerk to NPC's There is an endless supply of them!"

Another thing that is important is "conflict escalations"

In real life when someone has something we want or does something we don't want them to do we don't go straight to pulling a gun.

Usually it escalates,

a disagreement turns into an argument.
an argument turns into a shouting match.
a shouting match turns into a fist fight.
a fist fight turns into a club fight.
a club fight turns into a knife fight.
and a knife fight turns into a gun fight.

So if someone starts a fire when you don't want them to in Dnd the first reaction shouldn't be "I attack you."

Just some food for thought...

Drakevarg
2010-06-03, 10:45 PM
Aboleth Mucus would be better in that situation. Our cleric doesn't think enough to prepare air/water breathing, so he's dead in like 3 minutes unless the dm intervenes with the magic of plot device.

O_o

...

*starts frantically searching through his books for Aboleth Mucus*

*finds it*

...I approve. :smallbiggrin:

Matamane
2010-06-03, 10:50 PM
Savage Species page 46. DC 19, no longer can breathe air. 20gp.

Factotum prepares for everything.

We've actually tried explaining it is not even in his benefit to harm the party because he would die a slow and painful death in an encounter as he is frail and needs us.

His response, let's fight, and I'll win.

facepalm. Then an hour of explaining the hundreds of ways we could have our way with the tibbit if it came to battle

Drakevarg
2010-06-03, 10:53 PM
Savage Species page 46. DC 19, no longer can breathe air. 20gp.

I just glanced at the MM entry. Don't have Savage Species.


We've actually tried explaining it is not even in his benefit to harm the party because he would die a slow and painful death in an encounter as he is frail and needs us.

His response, let's fight, and I'll win.

Take him up on his challenge.

Dr Bwaa
2010-06-03, 10:54 PM
I'm going to go against the main flow here (surprisingly...) What you need to do is talk to him ooc about his behavior. Explain to him that this isn't one of those RP-games that's all PvP all the time, and that if he continues to act this way, there's no way in the nine hells the party will let him live ("hmm, he was bad to us. What do we do to people who are bad?" "we kill them!" "right!" <kills offending PC>). Explain that that is the "reasonable" in-character result of his actions, and if he wants to play in a game with a party structures, he needs to play a character able to be in a party. It would be much better if the DM did it, but that depends on your group dynamics more than anything else. I would certainly let the DM know beforehand what you are going to say, so that he can back you up in case of a "you're not in charge!" moment.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-03, 10:55 PM
1st question: Did the DM know this person would be a problem when they joined? If not, why is the person still in the group - does the DM not have the ability to tell them "you're being a douche, stop coming to our games"?

Matamane
2010-06-03, 10:56 PM
I usually tell him a few ways I can destroy him, and decline as it serves little purpose

Kalrik
2010-06-03, 11:07 PM
I've run into this problem on a few occasions. Usually the DM handles it and order is restored. I'm agree with what everyone else said though. If he is a complete jerk in character, fix the problem in character. I was running a game where one of the PC's was over-the-top mean to the NPC healer. Guess who didn't get any heals durring the BBG fight? Guess who died? "Why didn't you heal me?" answered with: "For the same reason you stole my magic ring."

jumpet
2010-06-03, 11:12 PM
We have a rule, 'no shafting other PCs.'

Its very simple and works well.

If the PC feels so aggrieved that they feel the need to hurt or shaft other PC's then the PC can apply for their Gold NPC membership from the DM and hand over their character.

btw, problem players are a group problem, not an individual DM or Player problem.

balistafreak
2010-06-03, 11:27 PM
This is why you play with friends.

If they aren't your friends, screw 'em.

You have no hope of running a cohesive group in fiction/gameplay/roleplay/whatever if you can't get along in real life. From the way things sound here... :smallannoyed:

Whenever we have a disagreement over anything at our table, the first thing that happens is that we all drop our gamefaces and talk as actual people - none of this "well that's what my character would do" crap. (I've got a whole theory on people who roleplay evil, but I'll keep that to myself for now. Not really relevant.)

Usually we come to a gentleman's agreement over a situation. Any roleplay then is undertaken with complete knowledge of each other's roles - heckling will be telegraphed in advance as "character" and not as under-the-table-dickery. If any of us feel uncomfortable, we'll bring it up. In the rare case that we can't come to an agreement (only happened once, and in retrospect I really shouldn't have thrown up the moral dilemma as a DM) then we end the session and do something more light-hearted for a change. Nothing worse than seething tempers at a roleplaying game.

A problem player is caused by a problem person. The game is completely irrelevant and might as well be Monopoly for all that applies. (Yes, we have had tempers flare over Monopoly before. :smalltongue:)

aivanther
2010-06-03, 11:31 PM
I would tell him, IC that you are tired of his crap, and if he doesn't straighten up he will be going down the nearest river in a series of very small sacks. It doesn't sound like the stuff he's doing even a Good aligned character would put up with, unless your good guys have hopeless levels of codependency...

Umael
2010-06-03, 11:59 PM
A couple of thoughts:

1) Back-up everyone who said "It's not your problem; it's the DM's problem."
1a) Go a step further. Complain to the DM for not taking a strong enough stand. Make it very clear to the DM that it is his job to keep Mr. Immature in line or make sure that Mr. Immature gets dis-invited.
2) Rich Burlew had an article about how "but that's how my character would act" is NOT role-playing.
2a) IC, killing his PC is perfectly "how my character would act". Because IC and OOC, it's getting old. No, it was old a long time ago.
3) CE is not an excuse to be a jerk IC or OOC. CE is not a free pass. People who behave like this give Evil a bad name.
3a) Most people don't know how to play Evil without making it "all about me" OOC - essentially insisting on having fun at the expense of anyone else having fun. This is not fun for a group activity that is meant to be fun for everyone.
3b) The alignment system in general ...well... sucks.
4) balistafreak has some good things to say. But I am very curious about balistafreak's theory about people who play evil characters.
4a) I am curious about balistafreak's theory because I play evil from time to time.

Safety Sword
2010-06-04, 12:05 AM
My good character would get a detect evil cast by someone they trust (or do it themselves if possible).

"Evil, eh. How's that working out? Did you know that I am diametrically opposed to people like you?" *STAB*

Then just shrug and say "That's what my character would do".

If it works for CE (Chaotic Stupid) it should work for good characters too.

Other thing to do in game is arrange a meeting with 12 angry paladins. Then just giggle to yourself as they do their divine duty.

QuantumSteve
2010-06-04, 12:09 AM
Talk to him OOC. Tell him he's ruining the game for others. Tell him if he persists, you will boot him from the party in game.

Ooo, better yet, get a Helm of Opposite Alignment, and tell him "He can't have it!" Better to have one custom made with a 30 Will save.

742
2010-06-04, 01:21 AM
try OOC "if your characters only traits are 'chaotic' and 'evil' then perhaps role playing isnt the hobby for you. and no, thats not what that character would do; he would not put himself in any sort of danger and he absolutely wouldnt care about [campaign goal]"

TroubleBrewing
2010-06-04, 01:26 AM
2) Rich Burlew had an article about how "but that's how my character would act" is NOT role-playing.

The article can be found here: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html

I don't know if someone posted it before me, as I read this post and can relate to it very, very well (as so many of us can).

Have the DM read this, have the ingrate read this, heck, have EVERY player you play with read this. It makes things so much easier in games, as it prevents games from getting too personal.

The other solution is to win on his terms. Fight, but win. Nobody said you had to win fairly. In the words of Complete Scoundrel: Fair fights are for suckers.

Lev
2010-06-04, 01:39 AM
as an excuse to be a vindictive douchebag, and claim it to be roleplaying
His character is not a vindictive douchebag, HE is a vindictive douchebag.
If he started stealing your guy's actual stuff IRL you'd probably throw him out of the house, if he wants to justify his actions by hiding behind his character then throw him out of the party in-game and not let him re-roll anything that would do the same thing, if he complains then use your own character defense.

gallagher
2010-06-04, 02:05 AM
wait, he stole a wand because he was jealous of magic? he is a psionic telepath... while it isnt arcane magic, it is still at least a kind of magical, or put on the appearance of magic, and therefor, wouldnt his character try and get better at his craft?

evil people tend to not just want the best stuff, but actually be the best himself.

and his character should have high intelligence. i dont think acting immature would be roleplaying

Matamane
2010-06-04, 02:17 AM
Whole story is funnier.

So we need to find a gear to fix the elevator. checks are made, and a party member says he could make the gear with craft. under the circumstances, it is not too hard, so he is tasked to do so. This is the psionic artificer. They get bored so they kick in the door, and end up in an encounter too hard for them. The telepath gets pissed he isn't helping, so she asks for help. He says he already invested the material needed, so all he can offer is wands and dojres. He offers 1-2 optimal items for the job. Then this jealousy comes in. and the tibbit tries to steal his pack. the starts a two hour argument, which the dm finally resolves. The artificer delegates attendees to use previous alluded to macguffin to help them win the encounter, then the artificer is yelled at by the telepath for doing nothing, which is why it took so long.

Touchy
2010-06-04, 02:19 AM
wait, he stole a wand because he was jealous of magic? he is a psionic telepath... while it isnt arcane magic, it is still at least a kind of magical, or put on the appearance of magic, and therefor, wouldnt his character try and get better at his craft?

evil people tend to not just want the best stuff, but actually be the best himself.

and his character should have high intelligence. i dont think acting immature would be roleplaying

Actually it could be if he has low wisdom, intelligence tells you how to do something, wisdom tells you if it's a bad idea or not.

Matamane
2010-06-04, 02:21 AM
Actually it could be if he has low wisdom, intelligence tells you how to do something, wisdom tells you if it's a bad idea or not.

moderate wisdom.

Touchy
2010-06-04, 02:22 AM
moderate wisdom.

Then he should know better.

Arbane
2010-06-04, 02:29 AM
Lots of perfectly good suggestions. To sum up:

Talk to the jerk player, out-of-character. Ask him to cut it out.
Talk to the jerk character, in-character. Ask him to cut it out.
Talk to the DM. Ask him to MAKE jerk cut it out.
Attack the jerk character the next time he steps out of line*. Be prepared to roll up a new one if this goes badly and/or nobody backs you up.
Kill the jerk character _before_ he has another chance to step out of line*. Be prepared for much Alignment Angst.
Drag the jerk player out into the parking lot and beat them up (not recommended).
Grind your teeth and endure in silence.
RAEGQUIT! Tell the DM and the other players that either the jerk goes or you do. Just be prepared to follow through on it.

How irritated are the other players by this guy? If they all want him gone/playing something else*, it's time for come collective bargaining with the DM, and when that fails, a vicious many-on-one fight.

* Note that ganking his current character without also ejecting the jerk from the group will probably result in him making a revenge character who will self-destruct at the worst (for you) possible moment.

Any important strategies I'm forgetting?

Lev
2010-06-04, 04:43 AM
But seriously, the best way to handle this is to confront him out of character, share feelings of the group as a whole, and let him see the impact he is having on the group and their overall experience and what they want out of this game, and if he doesn't care about that he should not be in the group, period.

Ruinix
2010-06-04, 07:53 AM
Lots of perfectly good suggestions. To sum up:

Talk to the jerk player, out-of-character. Ask him to cut it out.
Talk to the jerk character, in-character. Ask him to cut it out.
Talk to the DM. Ask him to MAKE jerk cut it out.
Attack the jerk character the next time he steps out of line*. Be prepared to roll up a new one if this goes badly and/or nobody backs you up.
Kill the jerk character _before_ he has another chance to step out of line*. Be prepared for much Alignment Angst.
Drag the jerk player out into the parking lot and beat them up (not recommended).
Grind your teeth and endure in silence.
RAEGQUIT! Tell the DM and the other players that either the jerk goes or you do. Just be prepared to follow through on it.

How irritated are the other players by this guy? If they all want him gone/playing something else*, it's time for come collective bargaining with the DM, and when that fails, a vicious many-on-one fight.

* Note that ganking his current character without also ejecting the jerk from the group will probably result in him making a revenge character who will self-destruct at the worst (for you) possible moment.

Any important strategies I'm forgetting?


ajjjj ninnnnja!

espcially the beat him part.

talk to the jerk in and out char.
talk to the jerk DM, cause if he allow this, then he is a jerk too.
kill the jerk char. and prepare for the argue, then make eat his own teeth.
or leave the group.

dont stay in silence.

balistafreak
2010-06-04, 10:55 AM
But I am very curious about balistafreak's theory about people who play evil characters. I am curious about balistafreak's theory because I play evil from time to time.

Well, since you called me out on it... *cough*... this might come off as awkwardly aggressive.

There's nothing inherently wrong with playing the part of the villain or an "evil character". Someone has to act the part of the "bad guy", or even just the anti-hero. The greatest writers (and by extension actors, and by extension-extension the players who are both) are those who are able to write from any point of view and maintain the same amount of verisimillitude. Shakespeare, for example, was a genius because of his unmatched ability to write characters of all types that were believable and compelling.

The problem arises with the "avatar character". Yeah, we all know what these are. While there's nothing inherently wrong with them either, that's only because an avatar character is by its very definition a reflection of the player behind it. Academically they've got a lot of flak sent their way already (*coughEragoncough*) but really, as long as they don't go too far in Mary Sue territory, they work out in the end for their intended purpose; reflecting the player.

This direct relation is what makes me frown when I see one of these characters sitting in front of me. Let's face the facts - most of us (players) aren't Shakespeare, and write characters that at least superficially resemble us. When I see an evil character sitting across from me at the table, my first thought isn't "how can I incorporate them into the game", but "do I need to eject this person from my house before they cause a problem". Because the odds are that that character is an avatar of his player, and I know that I cannot abide the presence and actions of selfish (evil) people. (We all know the stories.)

If you're going to play evil, we're both going to have a long talk about exactly what kind of behavior we expect and will tolerate both IC and OOC. I'll bring up everything I've said before, maybe do some psychological prodding to see if the person is really as "evil" in person as they are in character, and (hopefully) they'll be sane and controlled enough for us to have a fun session at the table anyways.

I realize that comes off as Lawful Good/Stupid, but really, after one player hissy-fit... well, maybe you'll see my point of view. :smalltongue:

Taelas
2010-06-04, 11:02 AM
Eh, that's just not true.

I occasionally play evil characters. I certainly do not think I am even remotely evil. I also do not see myself as a literary genius on any level.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-04, 11:13 AM
Plus, don't forget that D&D is as much about escapism as it is about avatars. I can, and will happily, play a CE brutal vicious puppy-kicking baby eating Complete Monster. This in no way reflects my RL LN(good leanings) self, but it can still be fun to act out the role of someone who's completely unlike yourself, whether as stress relief or just for the chance of doing things you'd never want to or be able to do outside the game.



On-topic: OP has three options:
-Let the doucheplayer continue to ruin the game for everyone else until it disintegrates.
-Poke the DM until he grows a spine and cuts doucheplayer off at the knees, then shows him the door and tells him to never come back.
-Get the entire group together, act as a unified force against the DM to execute option 2, tell him and the doucheplayer that you guys don't want him around anymore, in or out of character.

Fiery Diamond
2010-06-04, 11:34 AM
Plus, don't forget that D&D is as much about escapism as it is about avatars. I can, and will happily, play a CE brutal vicious puppy-kicking baby eating Complete Monster. This in no way reflects my RL LN(good leanings) self, but it can still be fun to act out the role of someone who's completely unlike yourself, whether as stress relief or just for the chance of doing things you'd never want to or be able to do outside the game.



On-topic: OP has three options:
-Let the doucheplayer continue to ruin the game for everyone else until it disintegrates.
-Poke the DM until he grows a spine and cuts doucheplayer off at the knees, then shows him the door and tells him to never come back.
-Get the entire group together, act as a unified force against the DM to execute option 2, tell him and the doucheplayer that you guys don't want him around anymore, in or out of character.

May I point out the irony of your first statement when compared to your sig?

In any case, if you truly have good leanings IRL, playing a complete monster should be abhorrent to you. Therefore, I express my sincere doubts that you are as good as you believe.

WarKitty
2010-06-04, 11:38 AM
Let me get something straight: Is the character only an in-game problem, or is there an out of game problem as well? If it's just a case of an inexperienced RPer, I would take him aside and explain the problem, and ask him to maybe change his character or start a new one. If he refuses that, then I would ask him to leave.

Edit: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=154922 new thread to play out the evil character debate in so we can stop threadjacking this one. :smallbiggrin:

Umael
2010-06-04, 11:55 AM
Well, since you called me out on it... *cough*... this might come off as awkwardly aggressive.

Don't worry - your response was pretty much what I expected. Please note that no insult is intended. In fact, what you had to say was pretty sensible.



There's nothing inherently wrong with playing the part of the villain or an "evil character".

One thing to add (I believe) is that since playing a villain / "evil character" is somewhat necessary sometimes, it is important that the person playing the villain / "evil character" is mature enough to handle it. More on that later.



The problem arises with the "avatar character". Yeah, we all know what these are. While there's nothing inherently wrong with them either, that's only because an avatar character is by its very definition a reflection of the player behind it.

I understand that, but I don't think that the "avatar character" is really the issue.

In a way, every character anyone has ever portrayed by anyone has had something of themselves in that character. The best actors and role-players have the greatest versimitude as well as the ability to project whichever diverse mindset they are using to portray the character in question. Furthermore, putting forth the idea of the "avatar character" as the problem ignores the fact that the "avatar" can be good or evil.



When I see an evil character sitting across from me at the table, my first thought isn't "how can I incorporate them into the game", but "do I need to eject this person from my house before they cause a problem". Because the odds are that that character is an avatar of his player, and I know that I cannot abide the presence and actions of selfish (evil) people. (We all know the stories.)

Given the stories that I'm sure both of us have heard, if not outright actually experienced firsthand, your caution is sensible and laudable. I would even say that even experienced role-players can screw up - both with good and with evil characters. However, evil characters, when poorly played, are more likely to screw things up and cost enjoyment for the game.



If you're going to play evil, we're both going to have a long talk about exactly what kind of behavior we expect and will tolerate both IC and OOC.

At the risk of sounding like a broken 8-track (because "broken records" are cliche), sensible.

As I see it, the real issue is maturity. A lot of people, like the OP's suspect, are just not mature enough to handle playing an evil character, especially in a game where everyone else is playing a good character. There is a kind of selfishness that comes from playing an evil character, and if that brand of selfishness does not help the game, that person shouldn't be playing.

One of the other issues about playing evil is the alignment system. A lot of people play the alignment first ("I'm CE, I have to act this way!") and the character's personality second instead of being the other way around. Of course, the definition of "Good" and "Evil" is so completely subjective that such a concept is ludicrious.

(Personally, I like the definitions used in Wizardry - Good goes out of its way to help a little old lady cross the street, Neutral helps the little old lady cross the street if going the same way, and Evil helps the little old lady cross the street for a fee.)



I'll bring up everything I've said before, maybe do some psychological prodding to see if the person is really as "evil" in person as they are in character, and (hopefully) they'll be sane and controlled enough for us to have a fun session at the table anyways.

Cool. You want me to give some examples?

(I know of several evil characters I played who enhanced the game. I also know of two characters who did not enhance the game - one whom was evil, the other was not.)



I realize that comes off as Lawful Good/Stupid, but really, after one player hissy-fit... well, maybe you'll see my point of view. :smalltongue:

I do.

Your viewpoint is understandable, and while I do not agree with your theories, I would have no problem giving you a "this is my character, this is why" mini-psychological analysis.

Mauther
2010-06-04, 12:18 PM
May I point out the irony of your first statement when compared to your sig?

In any case, if you truly have good leanings IRL, playing a complete monster should be abhorrent to you. Therefore, I express my sincere doubts that you are as good as you believe.

So by your logic, since Christopher Lee plays villains, he's probably not a good person. Since Anthony Hopkins played Hannibal Lector, he's most likely evil as well. You appear to be misunderstanding the concept and versatility of roleplay. Or projecting your issues on to other people. I've never heard any sensible arguement for good people being unable to play evil characters.

In the case presented by the OP, I don't recall the player doing anything actually against the rules, so I'd excuse the DM on this one. Wouldn't be a bad idea for the DM to explain why its important for the party to get along, but I personally am against DM fiats over interplayer actions. But I would make sure the player understands that his character's actions have in game consequences. Then let the PCs deal with him as they see fit. His behavior so far might only draw ostracism and maybe a discussion about redefining the loot split. But if his actions cause real problems, the characters can always ask him to leave. "Look Steve, we've decided to go another direction with the role your playing in the party. Heres your portion of the treasure, no hard feeling s and good luck." Now if he gets to the point where he endangering other members, there's no reason adventurers wouldn't be able to respond lethally.

balistafreak
2010-06-04, 12:21 PM
I appreciate the second thread, but it's easier to keep all the conversation and information on a single thread, in my opinion.

balistafreak uses Threadjack! It's super effective! Alright, it's wall of text time! :smallbiggrin:


Don't worry - your response was pretty much what I expected. Please note that no insult is intended. In fact, what you had to say was pretty sensible.

Nice to see that we're all civil here. :smallsmile:


I don't think that the "avatar character" is really the issue. In a way, every character anyone has ever portrayed by anyone has had something of themselves in that character. The best actors and role-players have the greatest verisimilitude as well as the ability to project whichever diverse mindset they are using to portray the character in question. Furthermore, putting forth the idea of the "avatar character" as the problem ignores the fact that the "avatar" can be good or evil.

Actually, neither do I, so long as we keep it to the subject of just avatars. I realize that I rambled poorly there, and made it look like I hate the concept of the avatar more than I probably do.

An avatar can be a perfectly fine character alongside an original, "isolated" character - apple and orange. It's just when the avatar is representing an evil character, we can have problems. To continue the analogy, we have two apples, both avatars, but one of them is (excuse the pun) rotten to the core.

Given my (admittedly ancedotal) hypothesis about the majority of D&D characters, it is likely that this particular example of an avatar, an evil one, will bring me problems at the table.


Given the stories that I'm sure both of us have heard, if not outright actually experienced firsthand, your caution is sensible and laudable. I would even say that even experienced role-players can screw up - both with good and with evil characters. However, evil characters, when poorly played, are more likely to screw things up and cost enjoyment for the game.

+1? :smallwink: Yeah, I've played Lawful Good as Lawful Stupid before. I stewed in shame the rest of the session. :smallredface:


At the risk of sounding like a broken 8-track (because "broken records" are cliche), sensible.

As I see it, the real issue is maturity. A lot of people, like the OP's suspect, are just not mature enough to handle playing an evil character, especially in a game where everyone else is playing a good character. There is a kind of selfishness that comes from playing an evil character, and if that brand of selfishness does not help the game, that person shouldn't be playing.

One of the other issues about playing evil is the alignment system. A lot of people play the alignment first ("I'm CE, I have to act this way!") and the character's personality second instead of being the other way around. Of course, the definition of "Good" and "Evil" is so completely subjective that such a concept is ludicrious.

(Personally, I like the definitions used in Wizardry - Good goes out of its way to help a little old lady cross the street, Neutral helps the little old lady cross the street if going the same way, and Evil helps the little old lady cross the street for a fee.)

If no one repeated good advice it wouldn't last very long. :smalltongue:

I basically agree here, although I'm going to raise a kind-of-tangential point. What do you do with someone who is "mature" and calm about being evil, but still persists on doing things that irritate the party... completely civilly? Never had this happen before, but just curious. :smallconfused:

As for Good and Evil being subjective, I'd still argue that some things are black and white wrong, usually when either side goes past Good/Evil and into Stupid.


Cool. You want me to give some examples?

(I know of several evil characters I played who enhanced the game. I also know of two characters who did not enhance the game - one whom was evil, the other was not.)

I'll admit that what I do isn't as cool as "psychological prodding" sounds; no Freudian couch, no academic analysis, none of that. That'd kind of defeat the purpose of the prodding, because the experiment has to have a semblance of a "control". "Character is what you are when other people aren't watching", or something like that, although that doesn't quite work because, well, I'm watching. :smalltongue:

Small things, really. There's lots of little tics that define character. What do you hear about him/her from your friends? His/her friends? Rumors? Admittedly you have to take most of it with copious amounts of salt, but someone with a bad attitude can usually be spotted a mile away. Do they know when to back down, or do they brashly insist on themselves even when it's clear that they're not helping?

I realize that might not be helpful, but character-judging is a bit too holistic, I fear, to really "give examples of".

And besides, a good sense of the dramatic (as to what enhances a game and what just makes it awkward and/or annoying) is often distinct from character.


Your viewpoint is understandable, and while I do not agree with your theories, I would have no problem giving you a "this is my character, this is why" mini-psychological analysis.

Is that hypothetical offer of an analysis or an actual one? :smallsmile:

*******************************

Separate from all of this, I realize that what I say might come off as a bit hypocritical at times. Pah. I'm not Lawful Good at heart, but I have enough sense to know when something is terribly wrong. Maybe people will disagree with me on finer details, but I think we all know what counts as "terrible".

... on an unrelated note, good lord, a civil discussion about alignment? :smalleek:

Ruinix
2010-06-04, 12:57 PM
I basically agree here, although I'm going to raise a kind-of-tangential point. What do you do with someone who is "mature" and calm about being evil, but still persists on doing things that irritate the party... completely civilly? Never had this happen before, but just curious. :smallconfused:

i can add something here.

if the evil char is played by a mature player in a civil way and THAT irritate the party then the rest of the party isnt that mature.

that the central issue of all this thing. evil interpretation need maturity from both ways, from the player and from the party as too from the DM.

beside, the mature player who play an evil character must understand the context, mesure and use it in his favor. so is diferent what can and can not do in a city or at the forest.


the most dificult part of play an evil character is the choice of been a master mind and play as a puppeter with the other members of the party, or be a complete monster and probably that end in a direct confrotation with the party. that choice is what the player have to take and understand the consequences of his owndoing.

and the rest of the party and the dm have to understand and separate the evil pc from the player, if everything is well rolleplay and well managed then is a natural and easy task.

electricbee
2010-06-04, 01:47 PM
Assuming you have the backing of the group, I would inform the problem player that gaming is a cooperative social hobby. People game together to have fun, and what he is doing is making gaming NOT FUN for people involved.

He can choose to play his current character in a way that isn't disruptive. He can choose to play a different character that isn't disruptive.
He can choose to play in his current play style with a different group where he isn't being disruptive.

What he cannot do is continue to be disruptive.

That is all.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-04, 03:04 PM
May I point out the irony of your first statement when compared to your sig?

....Heh. very amusing, actually.:smallcool:


So by your logic, since Christopher Lee plays villains, he's probably not a good person. Since Anthony Hopkins played Hannibal Lector, he's most likely evil as well. You appear to be misunderstanding the concept and versatility of roleplay. Or projecting your issues on to other people. I've never heard any sensible arguement for good people being unable to play evil characters.


On the other hand, listen to the smart man. I wish I was as good an actor as Anthony Hopkins, but if he can play Hannibal across three movies without actually feasting on people's livers, then I think I can manage to play a villain in an RPG.

PersonMan
2010-06-04, 03:26 PM
On the other hand, listen to the smart man. I wish I was as good an actor as Anthony Hopkins, but if he can play Hannibal across three movies without actually feasting on people's livers, then I think I can manage to play a villain in an RPG.

Psssht. You say that now. After three sessions as a Chaotic Evil Orc, you realize that livers are great for feasting upon.

Mmmmm livers. Not really, they taste horrible.

The Glyphstone
2010-06-04, 03:28 PM
Psssht. You say that now. After three sessions as a Chaotic Evil Orc, you realize that livers are great for feasting upon.

Mmmmm livers. Not really, they taste horrible.

Well, naturally. I doubt you're having them as they're meant to be enjoyed, with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

PersonMan
2010-06-04, 03:33 PM
Well, naturally. I doubt you're having them as they're meant to be enjoyed, with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

Hmmm. I'm not sure. I usually just have them as a side dish, with some rice and meat and stuff. I mean, if you prepare it right it looks just like the rest of the eviscerated pieces of dead animal you're eating!

Yeah, I agree with the whole "make the DM deal with it or kick him out" argument.

Umael
2010-06-04, 06:12 PM
Actually, neither do I, so long as we keep it to the subject of just avatars. I realize that I rambled poorly there, and made it look like I hate the concept of the avatar more than I probably do.

Ah, poor communication. If I had more money, I'd upgrade my own communication plan so what when I give my .02, I deliver my money's worth.



I basically agree here, although I'm going to raise a kind-of-tangential point. What do you do with someone who is "mature" and calm about being evil, but still persists on doing things that irritate the party... completely civilly? Never had this happen before, but just curious. :smallconfused:

Well, logically, I can only see four possibilities.

1) The one who is playing evil is not mature about it after all, but does a good job playing that s/he is (mature about it).
2) The rest of the party is immature, especially if they made it clear that this wouldn't be a problem and are now reneging.
3) Both sides are being immature and a kind of passive-aggressive power struggle is developing.
4) Miscommunication.

In all cases, my answer is to let everyone know that this is not working and figure out who is causing the most issue. Sometimes a simple "yeah, you're going to have to play a non-evil character to continue, sorry" might be all there is and all that you can do. Honestly though, I can see a variety of possible scenarios develop for this.



As for Good and Evil being subjective, I'd still argue that some things are black and white wrong, usually when either side goes past Good/Evil and into Stupid.

No way I can discuss this without getting in to ethics and morals and that is too close to religion. Let's agree to disagree on this one and be thankful that we at least seem to have a similar viewpoint on what is Good and Evil.



Is that hypothetical offer of an analysis or an actual one? :smallsmile:


Just as long as you want to analyze one of my characters and not me, go ahead and set up the couch and I'll tell you all about their mothers...



... on an unrelated note, good lord, a civil discussion about alignment? :smalleek:

Oh, now you've done it!

Paradox will erase us from Reality, just mark m