PDA

View Full Version : oWod problems.



Shinizak
2010-06-04, 01:01 AM
my friends and I want to simplify mage/werewolf/vampire into 1 system, we already figured out that every system has a roll system (arete/rage/ and I think humanity) and a spend system (quintessence/gnosis/ and blood points), so we're reconfiguring the will power into a roll system and adding something like a generic spend system called "feed."

now what we need to do is figure out all the problems with the systems and strip/reconfigure those.

we rebuilt the battle system and gave it an HP system that combines D&D and oWoD

Known:

Mages can do anything as long as they have the spheres and arete. especially once they figure out how to get around paradox.

Vampires are too dang WEAK, they can't really do anything a mortal can't and they have the added negative of being extra allergic to sunlight.

Werewolves can spend all their time as an 8 foot tall god of death and agony that instantly regenerates it's wounds. (unless you have silver on you)

Can you think of anything else?

Also accepting problem areas for wraith and changeling.

Jarveiyan
2010-06-04, 01:19 AM
Actually there is 2 "gifts" or whatever that can deal with the silver problem. I know because one of my friends that has made Garou characters has used the gift where he takes no penalty from wielding or having silver on his self ontop of not getting aggravated wounds from silver weapons used on him.

Shinizak
2010-06-04, 01:23 AM
Actually there is 2 "gifts" or whatever that can deal with the silver problem. I know because one of my friends that has made Garou characters has used the gift where he takes no penalty from wielding or having silver on his self ontop of not getting aggravated wounds from silver weapons used on him.

But that's a system problem. An already overly powerful monster shouldn't have it's one (underpowered) balancing factor taken away.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-04, 01:43 AM
Hey, White Wolf already did this for you. It's called nWoD. :smallwink:

Shinizak
2010-06-04, 02:05 AM
Hey, White Wolf already did this for you. It's called nWoD. :smallwink:

No, I want to do this myself! >=[

:smallbiggrin:

mostlyharmful
2010-06-04, 03:35 AM
Well, there's two big problems:

1. Non-compatible 'races', you've got this one in mind but there's not much you can do to smooth over this short of rewriting the whole lot so much you may as well use nWoD cause it'll be easier. Seriously, ground up rebuild of multiple systems can take months before testing

2. Non-compatible mythology, Garou is Animistic, Vamp is Judeo-Christian, Kindred of the East is Taoist, Mummy is Eygptian, Wraith is depressing and Changling is just on smack. Running them all together means you've got to wrench a sane systemic plot from oWoD's metaplot... good luck with that one, let us know how it works out.....:smalleek:


You're best bet is just to work out which game you enjoy the most, run that and splat in a few randoms as and when the plot depends while whistling queitly when the question of their motivation and power source comes up.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-04, 04:03 AM
Mages can do anything as long as they have the spheres and arete. especially once they figure out how to get around paradox.
Well, except that they can't. Unprepared mages are notoriously squishy; ritual magic can take rather long to cast; and a decent DM will not simply let you "get around paradox" anyway. Plus, anything suspicious will get the Technocracy on your tail, fast.



Vampires are too dang WEAK, they can't really do anything a mortal can't and they have the added negative of being extra allergic to sunlight.
Excuse me? Vampires have things like dominate and thaumaturgy, all of which are exceedingly powerful in the hands of a skilled player. They can also ghoul most creatures to get an army going, are rather resilient to stuff like bullets, and most other supernaturals lack a common counter to either Presence or Obfuscate.


Werewolves can spend all their time as an 8 foot tall god of death and agony that instantly regenerates it's wounds. (unless you have silver on you)
And they can't do that, either. It violates the Veil and the Litany, causes delirium all around you, insults several spirits you may need, and gets both the elders and Pentex after your hide quicker than you can say "primal urge".

Yes, most garou can take the average kindred apart in seconds, in combat. But kindred are smarter than that, and good at hiding, and especially politics.

Quincunx
2010-06-04, 05:11 AM
The extra layers of reality were the most annoying, when the storytellers dropped non-vampires into the vampire game. Some vampires could see into extraplanar A (astral plane via Auspex) and others into extraplanar B (through the shroud via Necromancy) where they all were hunting for something hidden in extraplanar C (the Umbra). Consider equalizing the extra layers of reality or consolidating them. It may be a rare problem but it's a game-breaker.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-06-04, 05:15 AM
No, I want to do this myself! >=[

:smallbiggrin:
Seriously though, nWoD fixes the very problems you mention.

Question: do you actually want to "reform" oWoD or are you more interested in making your own system using oWoD fluff? If it's the latter, I recommend that you keep doing what you are doing and just ditch the rest of the oWoD mechanics.

When you're making your own rule system, only use things that help you achieve your goal. As written, none of the mechanics of oWoD contribute to your goals.

BobVosh
2010-06-04, 07:40 AM
As always Kurald Galain posts very well. I agree with everything he said, and also feel that they shouldn't be balanced. Vampires have a strength over most other supernaturals: its easy, very easy, to make new ones and ghouls. Mages have the most powerful singular effects, but can't flaunt them too much.

And noone wants to be a dog. Well, werewolves are strong and can throw absolutely ridiculous amounts of dice but that works well for the fluff of WWs.

Aron Times
2010-06-04, 08:04 AM
In the same way you can play 4e using 3.5 fluff, you can play nWoD using oWoD fluff.

You don't like the Spellplague? Fine, just set it a century before the current era. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Gnaeus
2010-06-04, 08:20 AM
Well, except that they can't. Unprepared mages are notoriously squishy; ritual magic can take rather long to cast; and a decent DM will not simply let you "get around paradox" anyway. Plus, anything suspicious will get the Technocracy on your tail, fast.


This statement = "Wizards aren't unbalanced because a good DM will not let you use (insert list of 100 most broken spells)."

Paradox is easy to get around, by at least half a dozen methods I can think of off the top of my head. Mages can hang enough long duration rituals that they never need to be unprepared. It runs just the same as in 3.5. Vampires (Rogues/Bards) and Werewolves (Melee) advance linearly, Mages advance exponentially.

Only the technocracy is remotely a balancing factor, and smart mages can hide very effectively. The technocracy couldn't care less if random Traditions mage obliterates elder vampires or garou or other monsters from ranges that no one else can even detect them. The traditions mage is only doing the technocracy's work for them by purging reality of the supernatural outlier.


The extra layers of reality were the most annoying, when the storytellers dropped non-vampires into the vampire game. Some vampires could see into extraplanar A (astral plane via Auspex) and others into extraplanar B (through the shroud via Necromancy) where they all were hunting for something hidden in extraplanar C (the Umbra). Consider equalizing the extra layers of reality or consolidating them. It may be a rare problem but it's a game-breaker.

+1. Consolidate Astral/Umbra/Dark Umbra and game works much better.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-04, 08:24 AM
I notice how you don't tell us what these half a dozen methods are - just that you can think of them.

Go on. Wow us.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-04, 08:32 AM
1. use Talismans rather than straight effects
2. use spheres where powerful effects are coincidental (Mind and Spirit are all but certain to be ok)
3. build a sanctum and either do stuff there or link effects to Correspondance and hide from the backlash
4. get Prime good and high and use Paradox charms
5. bind Spirit minions to either do the job for you or as fetishes
6. adventure in areas of the Tellurian where most magic is coincidental (Umbra, horizon, deep whatever, etc).

Kurald Galain
2010-06-04, 08:37 AM
This statement = "Wizards aren't unbalanced because a good DM will not let you use (insert list of 100 most broken spells)."
No, it is the exact opposite. Paradox is a rule that limits a mage's power, and a good DM will enforce this rule. Those broken spells are a rule that breaks the mage's power level, and a good DM will veto or houserule this.


Paradox is easy to get around, by at least half a dozen methods I can think of off the top of my head.
Such as what?


Mages can hang enough long duration rituals that they never need to be unprepared. It runs just the same as in 3.5.
Most spells in 3.5 require one standard action. Most spells in MTA require several minutes of chanting. Also, a 3.5 wizard has way more spell slots than a MTA mage has quintessence. There's almost zero similarity between a D&D mage and an Order of Hermes adept, even.


Vampires (Rogues/Bards) and Werewolves (Melee) advance linearly,
In the Elder's Handbook, or indeed several high-ranked garou gifts, there is lots of exponentiality for those poor little vampires and werewolves.



Only the technocracy is remotely a balancing factor, and smart mages can hide very effectively.
...which is why, for all intents and purpopes, they lost the Ascension war.

Yes, there is one faction that can hide very effectively. Those are the Ahl-I-Batin, the previous holders of the Correspondence seat. Now many people haven't heard of those, and indeed they're almost extinct... because they hid themselves out of existence. They became so good at hiding that the Tellurian forgot them, and so they ceased to exist. Yes, Mage is awesome that way.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-04, 08:39 AM
2. use spheres where powerful effects are coincidental (Mind and Spirit are all but certain to be ok)
Just off the top of my head, (a) just because it's coincidental doesn't mean it won't cause paradox, and (b) just because mortals cannot detect it doesn't make it coincidental.


6. adventure in areas of the Tellurian where most magic is coincidental (Umbra, horizon, deep whatever, etc).
Yes, because the Umbra is such a safe place...

Gnaeus
2010-06-04, 08:39 AM
Get a familiar to eat your paradox.

Operate coincidental effects only (pitifully easy).

Become a Marauder, let your paradox work for you.

Work most of your magic in another plane of existence where your freakish effects are coincidental.

Bleed off paradox regularly with minor/trivial flaws.

(NWOD only) Take it as bashing damage.

Sorry, That was only 5, not 6. But I haven't played in years and don't have my books here. I know there were others I can't recall right now.

Thanks Mostlyharmful, I knew I was missing some.

Gnaeus
2010-06-04, 08:42 AM
Just off the top of my head, (a) just because it's coincidental doesn't mean it won't cause paradox, and (b) just because mortals cannot detect it doesn't make it coincidental.

A point or 2 of paradox is meaningless. Trivial paradox flaws are nothing. Oh dear, my watch is running backwards.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-04, 08:49 AM
Get a familiar to eat your paradox.
That works, but it works slowly. It doesn't in any way make you ignore paradox, any more than having access to a good hospital makes you ignore wound levels.



Operate coincidental effects only (pitifully easy).
Those can still cause paradox, they're just less likely to. And, of course, the more powerful effects tend to be highly vulgar (which is, after all, the point). If you're in battle for your life, you can easily need a vulgar explosive fireball, and worry about the consequences later.


Become a Marauder, let your paradox work for you.
Marauders are antagonists, just like Antediluvians, Oracles, Nephandi, and Incarnae. They are not intended for players, and as far as I know there's no rules anywhere for becoming them.

More to the point, marauders are also frighteningly insane, highly visible, and an immediate target for heavy-duty hit squads from Technocracy, Tradition Council, Vampire politics, and Garou elders. Good luck with that.


Work most of your magic in another plane of existence where your freakish effects are coincidental.
Yes, that works, but not where you need it. Also, other planes were dangerous to get to even before the Avatar Storm.


Bleed off paradox regularly with minor/trivial flaws.
I'm unaware of any flaws that let you do that. If anything, an effect that lets you bleed of paradox would be a seven-point merit because of its power level.

(edit) ah, you meant the other kind of flaws. This is, however, under the DM's control: you can't just voluntarily replace paradox points by something that doesn't hinder you much.

Gnaeus
2010-06-04, 08:49 AM
...which is why, for all intents and purpopes, they lost the Ascension war.

And yet there are still plenty of oracles living in pocket planes doing their crazy oracle stuff.


Yes, there is one faction that can hide very effectively. Those are the Ahl-I-Batin, the previous holders of the Correspondence seat. Now many people haven't heard of those, and indeed they're almost extinct... because they hid themselves out of existence. They became so good at hiding that the Tellurian forgot them, and so they ceased to exist. Yes, Mage is awesome that way.

Yeah, I can beat a 20th level wizard in D&D too, with another 20th level wizard. Completely different power scale than every other White Wolf game. Oh, and if you are going to use the Technocracy as an antagonist, remember that they don't like Vampires, Werewolves, and other supernaturals EITHER, and none of those creatures has a prayer of stopping a technocrat.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-04, 08:51 AM
And yet there are still plenty of oracles living in pocket planes doing their crazy oracle stuff.
The Horizon Chantry would like a word with you.


Oh, and if you are going to use the Technocracy as an antagonist, remember that they don't like Vampires, Werewolves, and other supernaturals EITHER, and none of those creatures has a prayer of stopping a technocrat.
Werewolf Guide to Messing with Technocracts (http://www.amazon.com/OP-Monkeywrench-Pentex-Werewolf/dp/1565040600). Have a nice day :smalltongue:

mostlyharmful
2010-06-04, 08:55 AM
Just off the top of my head, (a) just because it's coincidental doesn't mean it won't cause paradox

er, yes it does. That's what being coincidental is all about. Do it right and you DONT generate paradox.


, and (b) just because mortals cannot detect it doesn't make it coincidental.

However the books all saying that it is does mean it's a stretch for a ST to hand out the paradox points for it.


Yes, because the Umbra is such a safe place...

Bit's of it are. most of it's not. That's why mages generally don't hang out there unless they're powerful. The Umbra is not the only place to hang your pointy hat. Horizon realms are mage specific, paradox all-but-free and full of interesting stuff....

Edit:
Werewolf Guide to Messing with Technocracts (http://www.amazon.com/OP-Monkeywrench-Pentex-Werewolf/dp/1565040600). Have a nice day :smalltongue:

I own it. It's not that good. Either for corporate espionage or for Garou tactics versus Pentex, Shadowrun's a far far better place to drum up ideas.

Gnaeus
2010-06-04, 09:00 AM
Those can still cause paradox, they're just less likely to. And, of course, the more powerful effects tend to be highly vulgar (which is, after all, the point). If you're in battle for your life, you can easily need a vulgar explosive fireball, and worry about the consequences later.

If you think that the vulgar fireball is one of a mages most powerful effects, It is clear why you think mages have problems with paradox. Forces is the evocation of OWOD. Much better to rewrite the enemies mind, or curse them with bad luck, or get a friendly spirit to blast your enemies.

Caliphbubba
2010-06-04, 09:03 AM
This entire premise confuses me. I've ran and played in many, many, many games that have used the oWoD as a whole with very few, if any problems with compatibility.

Each type of supernatural is powerful in its own right.

The mythologies of each supernatural fit fine with one another with slight tweaking.

I wish you luck in this, but really I doesn't seem broken to being with so any fix is going to be a whole new beast rather than a fix.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-04, 09:04 AM
er, yes it does. That's what being coincidental is all about. Do it right and you DONT generate paradox.
If you botch it, however...


However the books all saying that it is does mean it's a stretch for a ST to hand out the paradox points for it.
Well, for starters, you explicitly get paradox for vulgar magic even without witnesses. Then there's the domino effect. So yes, if your mind reading actions would make a sleeper think "OMG I don't believe this!!!", then you can get paradox even if there's not an actual sleeper witnessing it (although yes, with witnesses it's worse). That's what paradox means: the universe at large not believing your actions.


Horizon realms are mage specific, paradox all-but-free and full of interesting stuff....
Yes, but some of the interesting stuff can kill you. More importantly, the existence of an extraplanar region where you can cast at will doesn't help you if your city is under attack.

So that's the thing. Yes, you can take measures to limit paradox, and doing so is what makes a mage effective. No, you can't just ignore paradox at will. It also doesn't make mages uber-powerful in wiping out kindred or garou in single combat.


I own it. It's not that good. Either for corporate espionage or for Garou tactics versus Pentex, Shadowrun's a far far better place to drum up ideas.
True enough, it's not a very good book. But my point is that Garou can do meaningful strikes against Pentex, if they can stop infighting long enough to pull it off. The fact that Garou aren't extinct yet means that the Technocracy isn't as good as wiping them out as they'd like to be.


If you think that the vulgar fireball is one of a mages most powerful effects, It is clear why you think mages have problems with paradox. Forces is the evocation of OWOD. Much better to rewrite the enemies mind, or curse them with bad luck, or get a friendly spirit to blast your enemies.
I don't, it's just a random example. However, the examples you give are just as much vulgar magic.

Gnaeus
2010-06-04, 09:09 AM
If you botch it, however...

Easily avoided by PCs.


The fact that Garou aren't extinct yet means that the Technocracy isn't as good as wiping them out as they'd like to be.

Or that the technocrats have enough other stuff to do that they can't be bothered to give garou their full attention.


I don't, it's just a random example. However, the examples you give are just as much vulgar magic.

No, they are all coincidental. Have you even played mage?

JeenLeen
2010-06-04, 10:20 AM
I play Mage, and I've played a little Vampire and read Mage, Vampire, and Werewolf.

From all I've heard, at character creation it usually goes Mage < Vampire < Werewolf. A single starter garou could slaughter a cabal of starter mages. As they progress, mages become more powerful because of the versatility and exponential power of their Spheres.

Mages can use Quintessence to lower the difficulty in using magic, but their actual 'spells/day' are limitless; Quintessence could be reworked to be like that, mages needing access to a node to replenish their power (or it happens over time, perhaps linked to their Avatar ranking). Gifts and Disciplines do spend points and someone can run out of them.

The 'fluff' of WoD is important to balance. Mystic mages would be all-powerful, if not for the Consensus which generates Paradox and the Technocracy. As for competing mythologies, I think one of the intriguing things about WoD is that each supernatural group has their own view of reality. I don't know if any book declares what is the actual truth, or if there even is an actual truth (reality is relativitistic in WoD, as Mage proves since the Consensus changes), but that vampires, mages, and garou (and I assume the other groups) all have a fundamentally different view of how the world works and was created seems a nice part of the system.

To get back to the OP: if he wants to design a system based on the ideas of WoD but with a more balanced feel, all supernaturals would need to be reworked a bit. It probably would be good to give Mages some sort of 'spend points' that limit how much magic they can do a day. Maybe read the Sorcerer book to see how static magic works; I believe some of their spells use Willpower as the 'spend point'.

Games that mingle oWoD supernaturals can work. It should just be understood that all supernaturals have different points-of-view and are not balanced mechanically. But the OP wants to craft a system that is akin to oWoD but balanced. It might not be necessary, and maybe nWoD is an answer, but let's lend a hand.

Gnaeus
2010-06-04, 10:36 AM
To get back to the OP: if he wants to design a system based on the ideas of WoD but with a more balanced feel, all supernaturals would need to be reworked a bit. It probably would be good to give Mages some sort of 'spend points' that limit how much magic they can do a day. Maybe read the Sorcerer book to see how static magic works; I believe some of their spells use Willpower as the 'spend point'.

My recommendation for balancing mages is to put the brakes on dynamic magic. They don't need (IMO) a spells/day limitation, they need a "I can't do it just because I can convince my DM what spheres it falls into" limitation. Make rotes easier and casting off the cuff hard. There are lots of ways to get there (increase paradox for non rotes significantly, make them take longer to cast, increase difficulties) and it still won't prevent mages from doing anything (they would just have to spend more xp on rotes) but it would slow the curve on their exponential growth chart and allow the DM to predict what powers the mages will actually use.

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-04, 10:50 AM
My recommendation for balancing Mages is playing nWoD. :smallwink:

Wherein every spell costs at least one point of mana unless you learn it by rote, in which case you can't cast it if you're gagged and/or bound...

AmusingSN
2010-06-04, 12:33 PM
My suggestion is to pick one of the oWOD game systems (I suggest vampire) and have that be your base rules.

Come up with rules for the other supernatural creatures based on the vampire template: their powers would be arranged in the 1-5 dot discipline system.

Mages could use a variation of Thaumaturgy, expending willpower instead of blood points.

Ghosts could be constantly stuck in astral projection forms.

Werewolves could use a version of protean, animalism, potence, fortitude, celerity.

Everyone would have humanity.

It's relatively simple. I actually worked up rules for this a long time ago, I'll try to dig them up and share them if there's any interest.

Caliphbubba
2010-06-04, 12:59 PM
My suggestion is to pick one of the oWOD game systems (I suggest vampire) and have that be your base rules.

Come up with rules for the other supernatural creatures based on the vampire template: their powers would be arranged in the 1-5 dot discipline system.

Mages could use a variation of Thaumaturgy, expending willpower instead of blood points.

Ghosts could be constantly stuck in astral projection forms.

Werewolves could use a version of protean, animalism, potence, fortitude, celerity.

Everyone would have humanity.

It's relatively simple. I actually worked up rules for this a long time ago, I'll try to dig them up and share them if there's any interest.

This is probably the best solution and in fact the first edition books of at least vampire and werewolf have suggestions on how to do this for other supernaturals already.

Lapak
2010-06-04, 01:08 PM
No, they are all coincidental. Have you even played mage?I've both played and run Mage, and from both perspectives 'I alter that guy's mind with magic' was absolutely, unquestionably seen as vulgar magic even though target and Mage were the only ones affected and only the Mage knew anything was happening. It was vulgar without witnesses, in most circumstances, but vulgar nonetheless.

Coincidental magic is exactly that, coincidental: making things that could potentially happen (or could potentially have already happened) true. But introducing definite reality - even just from your own perspective - rapidly closes down the avenues through which you can use coincidence. The earliest example I remember reading made this pretty clear: magic a door you haven't tried yet such that it was left unlocked? Coincidental. Unlocking a door that you KNOW was locked? Vulgar.

Directly altering an opponent's mind is about as Vulgar as it gets, significantly less Vulgar than simply killing him by causing an aneurysm to burst in his head. Cursing them with bad luck would probably be coincidental, though.

pasko77
2010-06-04, 01:27 PM
I've both played and run Mage, and from both perspectives 'I alter that guy's mind with magic' was absolutely, unquestionably seen as vulgar magic even though target and Mage were the only ones affected and only the Mage knew anything was happening. It was vulgar without witnesses, in most circumstances, but vulgar nonetheless.

Coincidental magic is exactly that, coincidental: making things that could potentially happen (or could potentially have already happened) true. But introducing definite reality - even just from your own perspective - rapidly closes down the avenues through which you can use coincidence. The earliest example I remember reading made this pretty clear: magic a door you haven't tried yet such that it was left unlocked? Coincidental. Unlocking a door that you KNOW was locked? Vulgar.

Directly altering an opponent's mind is about as Vulgar as it gets, significantly less Vulgar than simply killing him by causing an aneurysm to burst in his head. Cursing them with bad luck would probably be coincidental, though.

meh, too strict.
A master in entropy rules :)

NeoVid
2010-06-04, 01:37 PM
My recommendation for balancing Mages is playing nWoD. :smallwink:

Wherein every spell costs at least one point of mana unless you learn it by rote

Lies! Even improvised spells cost nothing (unless you're improvising an effect that required mana, like healing) if the spell primarily uses one of your Ruling arcana.

This is part of why every mage gets a Legacy ASAP, so as to get that sweet, sweet third Ruling...

Oracle_Hunter
2010-06-04, 01:48 PM
This whole Mage discussion shows something important about oWoD - the game only runs by ST Fiat. The rules cannot be used to run the game in any consistent manner.

For example, the reference to "Mind = Vulgar" is directly contradicted by the rules (2nd Edition anyhow) which says Mind magic is almost always Coincidental. Of course, you could say that Mind is Vulgar as the rules give very poor guidelines for what is Vulgar and what is not. As an example, producing a dagger (Matter 2, Prime 2) is Coincidental if it is done by drawing it from underneath a cloak. Likewise, purifying metals and enhancing materials is Coincidental because nobody can tell from a glance. Personally, I'd say neither of these should be Coincidental since they basically produce something from nothing.

Of the three main systems, Mage is the one most "flexible" in terms of power. By RAW, a starter Mage can convert "Pants to Fire" (Matter 2 / Forces 3) which is more than enough to harm - if not destroy - your average Vampire. Vulgar, yes, but gaining Paradox is not the same as triggering Paradox. However, the the rules for "how many successes to convert Pants to Fire" are non-existent; a lax DM could just go with "Successes = Damage" while a strict DM could say "2 Successes to make it work, with each additional Success doing damage."

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-04, 01:50 PM
In oWoD, whether something was Vulgar or not depended entirely on whether it seemed impossible - tricking the universe by pretending to draw something from your person when really creating it makes it Coincidental.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-06-04, 02:04 PM
In oWoD, whether something was Vulgar or not depended entirely on whether it seemed impossible - tricking the universe by pretending to draw something from your person when really creating it makes it Coincidental.
Yes, but tricking from whose perspective?

If it's from some hypothetical layman's perspective than powerful effects such as short-circuits (Force), conjuring (Matter), eroding matter (Entropy), suggestion (Mind), and stat boosting (Life) are all Coincidental.

If it's from the understanding from some omniscient perspective, then most of those are Vulgar. Additionally, classic magics such as Anykey ("huh, maybe this key will fit this lock") and Faith Healing are Vulgar.

It's completely ST defined, and the rules provide minimal guidance on one of the most important mechanics in Mage.

Gnaeus
2010-06-04, 02:13 PM
I've both played and run Mage, and from both perspectives 'I alter that guy's mind with magic' was absolutely, unquestionably seen as vulgar magic even though target and Mage were the only ones affected and only the Mage knew anything was happening. It was vulgar without witnesses, in most circumstances, but vulgar nonetheless.

Coincidental magic is exactly that, coincidental: making things that could potentially happen (or could potentially have already happened) true. But introducing definite reality - even just from your own perspective - rapidly closes down the avenues through which you can use coincidence. The earliest example I remember reading made this pretty clear: magic a door you haven't tried yet such that it was left unlocked? Coincidental. Unlocking a door that you KNOW was locked? Vulgar.

Directly altering an opponent's mind is about as Vulgar as it gets, significantly less Vulgar than simply killing him by causing an aneurysm to burst in his head. Cursing them with bad luck would probably be coincidental, though.

O.K. I will concede that that one is debatable ( Counterargument:
For example, the reference to "Mind = Vulgar" is directly contradicted by the rules (2nd Edition anyhow) which says Mind magic is almost always Coincidental.)

But leaving aside totally rewriting someones mind, you can clearly and easily scry and die people with coincidental mind magic + correspondence (or spirit). The vampire "overlooks" the signs and drinks from someone on drugs or drunk, then "forgets" that the sun is coming up. The human "has a headache" and takes some pain medicine, then "forgets" and has a few drinks, or wraps his car around a telephone pole. The werewolf "gets angry" and rages at a bad time, thus breaking the litany. It is really easy for a clever mage to kill virtually any supernatural, coincidentally, without even being in the same fracking building (or plane of existence) in case things go wrong. A Mage with 3-5 Prime, Spirit, Mind, and Correspondence is easily as strong and much more versatile than most elder vampires or garou, and the mage is pretty easily achievable in play.

Lost Wanderer
2010-06-04, 06:16 PM
As a huge fan of M:tAs, I have a few things to say.

Whether a particular effect is Vulgar or not is, fundamentally, up to the ST. How powerful magic is, overall, is up to the ST. But this is explicitly stated in the books, so its not like you can claim the designers didn't know that. Off the top of my head, I know several places discussing Vulgar magic, paradigms and in particular the Node background say "ask your ST how they're going to handle this".

Also, everyone seems to be forgetting the importance of paradigm. Remember, if Mage doesn't believe they can use magic to do something, they cannot use magic to do that thing. A Hermetic could use Correspondence to scry on someone and work sympathetic magic on them... if they had the target's true name, and their tools: their crystal ball, their ceremonial chalice, their ritual circle, their copy of the Incantation of Transposition and enough time and materials to actually set up and do all these rituals. And any time during that process, the target could move. No D&D-style, 16 second nukes. And that's not even getting in to the rules about sympathetic magic itself.

A Virtual Adept, on the other hand, would scoff at the idea of true names and tell you that the only way they can spy on someone is if they have access to surveillance equipment placed near the target. And an Akashic could gain knowledge of anyone via deep mediation, but couldn't use it to make them actually do anything.

Really, its not just ST fiat that makes the game run, its about as much player fiat as well: "The rules say my character can use 'scry and die?' I say she can't, because she does not believe that magic works that way, she believes X."


A Mage with 3-5 Prime, Spirit, Mind, and Correspondence is easily as strong and much more versatile than most elder vampires or garou, and the mage is pretty easily achievable in play.

Mastery of four spheres (and the requisite 5 Arete) is "pretty easily achievable?" Seriously? That's like saying Athro (if not Elder) rank is "pretty easily achievable." Reaching 5 Arete is a mighty long term goal in and of itself, even with a starting Arete of 3. Maybe if that's what you aimed for from the start, but if you're making a long term Mage character who dedicates all their effort to learning to use 'scry and die' at the expense of all else... you're playing the wrong game, and probably making a very unrealistic/unbelievable character in the process.

And whats with the idea that Spirit is the ultimate sphere? Spirit summoning is pretty much always Vulgar, and cheap spirits aren't very reliable. Using them to do all you dirty work is unwise at best. Powerful spirits require expensive or difficult sacrifices to get the help of. And if you're calling and binding them against their will, you're just pissing them off and one day an Incarna is going to come calling and exact revenge for your abuses of its children...

Yuki Akuma
2010-06-05, 06:20 AM
It's completely ST defined, and the rules provide minimal guidance on one of the most important mechanics in Mage.

This is why everyone should play Awakening.

You can ignore the silly Atlantis flavour if you really hate it that much. >.>

Saph
2010-06-05, 06:55 AM
Mastery of four spheres (and the requisite 5 Arete) is "pretty easily achievable?" Seriously? That's like saying Athro (if not Elder) rank is "pretty easily achievable." Reaching 5 Arete is a mighty long term goal in and of itself, even with a starting Arete of 3. Maybe if that's what you aimed for from the start, but if you're making a long term Mage character who dedicates all their effort to learning to use 'scry and die' at the expense of all else... you're playing the wrong game, and probably making a very unrealistic/unbelievable character in the process.

Yeah, I think some of the people talking about Mages are playing with some pretty heavily houseruled XP variants. If I recall right from our Mage campaign, a Mage starts with 6 dots worth of Spheres and 1 dot of Arete. If you throw in your freebie points, you can start off with two Spheres at 3 dots, a dot or two in a third, and 3 dots of Arete.

Raising them beyond that is hideously expensive. Advancing Arete has a cost of (new rating) x8. Advancing a Sphere has a cost of (new rating) x8, or x7 if it's your Speciality. So Arete 4 costs you 32 points, Arete 5 costs you 40 points, and getting a Sphere to 5 costs you . . . let's say it's your speciality . . . 63 points on top of that. So getting one Sphere to 5 costs you a total of 135 XP.

The XP guidelines say that the absolute maximum you should get is 4 XP per chapter, which typically means one session, and 2 is more likely. You get a tiny bit extra at the end of a Story. Let's say that averages to 4 XP per session, though that's probably being generous.

That means that even if you dedicate your entire character to getting a Sphere to 5, you're talking 34 sessions of solid play, assuming you don't spend your XP on anything else, which also means you're not going to get any advancement at all in any other area.

"Easily achievable"? Yeah, right.

Gnaeus
2010-06-05, 07:08 AM
Mastery of four spheres (and the requisite 5 Arete) is "pretty easily achievable?" Seriously? That's like saying Athro (if not Elder) rank is "pretty easily achievable." Reaching 5 Arete is a mighty long term goal in and of itself, even with a starting Arete of 3.

But I said 3-5. IIRC, you can start with correspondence 3, mind 3, and already get most of that love. Then you only really need to get one Arete and then start buying up spheres.

The werewolf, on the other hand, has to start at rank 1. Has to go up multiple ranks (so multiple quests, lots of finding the right honor, etc.). Then has to spend XP on vastly weaker abilities and stats. The vampire has to drain multiple elders of increasing power and then spend WAY too much xp on elder disciplines which again aren't usually as good as True Magic.


Maybe if that's what you aimed for from the start, but if you're making a long term Mage character who dedicates all their effort to learning to use 'scry and die' at the expense of all else... you're playing the wrong game, and probably making a very unrealistic/unbelievable character in the process.

1. Really? Which game should you be playing? Sitting in your tower killing people with your brain sounds like mage to me.

2. All of those spheres are generally useful for other purposes.



And whats with the idea that Spirit is the ultimate sphere? Spirit summoning is pretty much always Vulgar, and cheap spirits aren't very reliable. Using them to do all you dirty work is unwise at best. Powerful spirits require expensive or difficult sacrifices to get the help of. And if you're calling and binding them against their will, you're just pissing them off and one day an Incarna is going to come calling and exact revenge for your abuses of its children...

1. Because spirit gives you easy escape routes that your enemies probably can't follow. You can also spy with it if you took spirit before correspondence, although you really want both.

2. Because it is completely irrelevant if you suck up a couple paradox while sitting in your sanctum when you call up a spirit and tell it to kill someone across town a week later. There are no witnesses to your magic, so you won't take much. You aren't in combat, so you don't need to worry about paradox stacking. By the time the spirit carries out your request, your familiar will have eaten the paradox.

3. Because you can make fetishes

4. Because you can duplicate most other spheres with spirit, if you have the time. No Life magic? Get a healing spirit. No Mind? Hire a mind altering spirit. No Forces? Get a fire or lightning spirit etc...

5. Because a spirit adept has all the tools at his disposal to make bribing spirits easy.

6. Because, due to the myriads of types of spirit realms previously alluded to, it is really hard for most PCs to fight off spirit enemies. Among vampires, only tremere can fight spirits, only giovanni can fight wraiths. Most werewolves can't fight wraiths, etc. The spirit mage can not only get rid of all these troublesome pests, but turn them on their enemies.

Set
2010-06-05, 07:34 AM
Vampires are too dang WEAK, they can't really do anything a mortal can't and they have the added negative of being extra allergic to sunlight.

Werewolves can spend all their time as an 8 foot tall god of death and agony that instantly regenerates it's wounds. (unless you have silver on you)


The easiest fix is to choose what power level you are comfortable with.

If you like the werewolf power level better, you can replace Kindred with Kuei-Jin, creating a class of 'vampires' that are much better integrated with the other game systems (and know what an Umbra is, for instance). Even then, the Kuei-Jin will be weaker than a Garou, so you might want to go with a non-Anne-Rice-inspired vampire and allow them to function during the day (at penalties, perhaps, being unable to evoke supernatural disciplines or something). And, really, if you have any level of crossover potential planned, allowing the vampires to function during the day, even if it's without disciplines, is probably a good idea, since it's a real downer if half the party has to go run to their havens just before the good stuff happens...

If you like the vampire power level better, you can downsize the garou, so that a 160 lb man who calls upon the primal power of an 80 lb wolf doesn't turn into a 900 lb juggernaut of destruction that can tear a grizzly bear in half and soak automatic weapons-fire. Making the garou only able to turn into wolf form, at first, and having to progress up to enter 'wolf-man' form, still with vastly lower improvements than the actual Crinos form, can go a long way to bringing down the Garou power level. Having the Garou regeneration be dependent upon Rage, as the lupine must 'surrender to the beast for a time' to heal, could be another balancing factor. Strict limits on Umbral travel are probably also a must. Perhaps the Garou themself doesn't travel, but their 'wolf-soul' travels as their body remains behind, rocking in a peyote-fueled sweat-trance. Umbral travel between cairns remains possible, along the 'spirit ways,' but casual umbral travel (say, into and out of vampire havens at noon, to snuff them while they are futilely attempting Humanity rolls to even wake up and defend themselves) becomes impossible.

Other issues;

1) In a crossover game, Necromancy needs to be slapped down hard. A Discipline shouldn't allow someone to have access to an entire rules book worth of Arcanoi that other kindred don't even know exist, let alone are able to defend against. Necromancers should summon some lesser ghosties, able to scout and spy and do minor things, but that's it. If they want a ghost to possess a rival, they'll have to capture said rival and do a whole ritual thing, and it won't be terribly more effective than if they'd captured and blood bound or dominated the heck out of them.

2) Celerity can either be crazy or useless, depending on the rules being used.

Our 'house rule' was that when you wanted to use Celerity (of any level), you spent 1 blood point. For each rank you had, you gained one automatic success on an attack roll (similar to the automatic successes gained on damage rolls for Potence), and, for each level of Celerity +1, you could Split your Dice Pool for a melee or ranged attack (but *not* a discipline or thaumaturgy use), allowing someone with Celerity 1 to split his Dex 3 + Firearms 3 dice pool into two attacks, one of which will get an automatic success. No more than one of these automatic successes can be used for a single Dice Pool (but he doesn't have to split his dice, he could just use that automatic success to make his single attack for the round harder to dodge, because it's coming in so fast!) If he's got Celerity 3, he can split his dice pool into 4 seperate attacks, but if he's still only got Dex 3 and Firearms 3, he's going to have to divide his six dice and his three automatic successes between those four attacks, making them sloppy. He can still take a single shot, but he'll only be able to add one of those auto-successes to the roll, as the extra automatic successes are lost.

You could also use Celerity out of combat. Spending 1 BP for a scene allows you to run twice as fast as normal. For every level of Celerity over 1, you can add another multiplier (but the BP cost remains 1), so that with Celerity 3, you'll be running 4x normal speed for the scene, to cross long distances on foot.

Since the game already had the split dice pool mechanic for multiple actions in a round, we felt that this was powerful enough, and emulated the auto-success nature of Potence and Fortitude. Combining the 'old' system of just flat out giving extra full actions, each of which could then be split six ways from Sunday, was just outrageous.

If this version of Celerity is in play, Rage would work similarly, and not give a ton of full actions, which can then be split.

3) The raising of Childer and Ghouls also proved to be a potential game-wrecker. Individually, a Vampire will get it's butt spanked by just about any other supernatural critter, but a Vampire can bite forty people, and use their own blood (filtered through it's system) to turn them into vampires. If he does this over three nights, giving them some blood every night, they become his permanant love slaves. The Garou shows up, and Bobby the Ventrue throws forty starving fanatical fledgeling vampires at them. One of them will get a lucky Dominate in... That's just silly.

After many years of playing around with ideas, we just house ruled that it costs a temporary willpower point to ghoul someone (but not to continue feeding them thereafter), *or* to charge blood with the potency necessary to Blood Bond someone. Neither could be done if the blood didn't come directly from the vampire, so you couldn't blood bond someone by spiking their drinks or because they fed from one of the 1000 people you slipped your blood into and unleashed around their hunting grounds, nor could someone become a ghoul by drinking vitae from a cup (barring certain assamite and tremere rituals that allowed charged blood to remain potent in a special container, but for every rule, there's probably a blood ritual that laughs at it...).

To create a Childer, you didn't just have to 'weaken your Beast' in this manner, you actually had to force some of it into the body of the Childe-to-be, costing you a *permanant* Willpower point. (So yeah, spend XP to get that back!)

The correlation between Sabbat mass embrace tactics and their infamous lack of self-control probably needs no explanation. Then again, being stuck with a perpetually low Willpower from these shenanigans has the dubious advantage of making it cheaper for them to buy those 2's and 3's back...

Needless to say, barring Assamite / Tremere blood magic cheats, one can't embrace a vampire with bottled blood, so that Diablerie Mill concept, where your 10th generation Ventrue finds a BP worth of 6th gen Vitae, and runs off to a coma ward to use that BP to create a 7th gen 'childe by proxy' from the restrained sleeper, and then takes a BP from that childe to embrace the dude in the next bed as an 8th gen vampire, and then takes his blood to embrace the nurse you tied up and make her a 9th gen vampire, and then bite necks up the chain until you are 7th generation? Yeah, that doesn't work anymore. The 6th gen vampire needs to be there, and spent a permanant Willpower point, which he isn't gonna do *by accident,* and the 7th gen childer would then have to also *choose* to create the 8th gen, etc. (which, if still in a coma, isn't even gonna be an option!).

Plus, just to be complete jerks, we made a 30 day 'breaking in period' where a vampires blood was 'in flux' and they might display some flashes of power beyond their abilities (hints of Clan Disciplines they didn't purchase, or levels of Clan Disciplines they haven't yet reached, at the ST's discretion), find their abilities unreliable and sometimes failing unpredictably (generally intended to serve RP needs and not shaft the player, and it was always an option to start your character well past that 30 day trial period and skip the whole deal), and, most importantly, totally unable to Blood Bond, Ghoul or Sire another (and not providing any benefit other than a stain on your aura, if Diablerized). After 30 days, they've settled in, and can start attempting to make other vampires, etc. unless they have Thin Blood or something... So even if you dominate someone into creating a child for you to devour, it's gonna take 30 days for him to 'perk' before you can diablerize him.

4) Minor quibble, but Clan weaknesses, etc. exist for a reason. Attempts to 'get around them' should fail. It's already tucked away in the lore that a vampire reverts to the appearance they had at time of death as they rest, so that even if they cut their hair after death, it grows back 'overday.' Nosferatu and Samedi, even if treated by Vicissitude, will 'get ugly again' while they rest, and the effects will be sadly temporary. (Now, if a Samedi or Nosferatu *learns* Vicissitude, he can darn well go ahead and use the level 1 power to make himself all pretty, and just re-use the power each evening as he rises, but that's 10 XP or so he's spending, as well as an extra BP a night, and I'm okay with that. Convincing Bob the Tzimisce to make your Clan Weakness go away permanantly with Vicissitude 2/3? Nope, next evening, you'll be all fugly again.)

Same thing happens to any Malkavian who attempts to get his derangement cured by a Salubri or use of The Forgetful Mind or something. If he deliberately tries to make his Derangement go away, the 'cure' fades by the next nightfall, as his mind 'heals' back to 'the way it's supposed to be.' And, hey, nobody said that it would have to be the exact same Derangement, if the ST wants to really mess with him...

Attempts to use the abilities of other supernatural critters, such as a Mage's Life or Mind magick to get around these permanant Clan Weaknesses will similarly fail when the Vampire's body (or mind) 'heals' back to 'the way it's supposed to be.'

Oracle_Hunter
2010-06-05, 12:39 PM
Yeah, I think some of the people talking about Mages are playing with some pretty heavily houseruled XP variants. If I recall right from our Mage campaign, a Mage starts with 6 dots worth of Spheres and 1 dot of Arete. If you throw in your freebie points, you can start off with two Spheres at 3 dots, a dot or two in a third, and 3 dots of Arete.
Oh, there's no doubt that the "oh 3-5 dots per Sphere is easy" is silly, but that doesn't change the fact that your initial allotment is sufficient to do ridiculous things. This is doubly so if your selection is:

- Correspondence 2 (Scry)
- Forces 3 (Fireballs)
- Prime 2 (Power for Fireballs)

Yes, I know that this is 7 points, but a Chorister only needs 16 (IIRC) XP to raise their Prime 1 to a 2; or a VA can do the same with Correspondence.

Using Ritual Magic, you can produce as many Successes as you want to incinerate anyone in the world so long as you have a lock of hair or vial of blood. Yes, that's more difficult to do for some creatures than others, but there are other "1st level" builds which can accomplish other silly effects.

For general killing, a Forces 3, Prime 2 is sufficient - using Quintessence (available via Prime 2) you can easily do 2+ points of Aggravated Damage a round. Remember that Force Effects do +1 damage and that Fire is not only universally treated as Aggravated Damage, but it can cause Vampires to freak out.

For lulz, here's a "Killer Crew" - using just Arete 3 and 6-7 dots of Spheres:

#1 Mr Scry-and-Die: for when you have the time
Correspondence 2, Forces 3, Prime 2

#2 Radar: he always sees you coming
Time 2, Entropy 1, Mind 1, Life 1, Forces 1

#3 Material Girl: the best that faerie gold can buy
Matter 2, Prime 2, Entropy 2 (for gambling)

#4 Spooks: for sneaking and spiritual support
Spirit 3, Correspondence 3

Saph
2010-06-05, 01:11 PM
Apart from the more . . . obvious . . . issues with that approach, I think that proper scrying requires Correspondence 3. :smallwink: Two dots only gets you the 'lite' version.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-05, 01:29 PM
you also need as many dots in correspondance as the other spheres you use in a conjunctual effect to force it through.

Jerthanis
2010-06-05, 03:18 PM
This is why everyone should play Awakening.

You can ignore the silly Atlantis flavour if you really hate it that much. >.>

Well, it's not like Awakening is the pinnacle of rules clarity either though. Dealing with things like Sympathetic connections and what constitutes them, Determining which spells count against your spell tolerance (if I'm wearing a magic'd shirt, yes, but what if I'm driving a magic'd car? What if I'm standing in a magic'd sanctum?) things like Unseen Senses versus Invisibility/Twilight/Spirit Road travelling mages isn't exactly clear.

Almost every session of Mage that I played degenerated into what exactly we could or couldn't do with our Arcanum. In this one case, I think that "almost no system" outstrips "too much system". And you can't just say, "Use consensus reality flavor with new Mage mechanics" and call it a day because unified mechanics don't make sense for belief-dependent magics.

And you run into issues of like... Physics versus RAI, and there's no simple "Ask the ST what consensus says." answer. For instance, the Forces spell Inertial Barrier says that it protects against external forces like Wind or inertia and so forth... but does that mean if you cast that spell on a Helicopter, it plummets out of the sky?

Lost Wanderer
2010-06-06, 02:10 AM
But I said 3-5. IIRC, you can start with correspondence 3, mind 3, and already get most of that love. Then you only really need to get one Arete and then start buying up spheres.

The werewolf, on the other hand, has to start at rank 1. Has to go up multiple ranks (so multiple quests, lots of finding the right honor, etc.). Then has to spend XP on vastly weaker abilities and stats. The vampire has to drain multiple elders of increasing power and then spend WAY too much xp on elder disciplines which again aren't usually as good as True Magic.

A cliath werewolf also has a far better rapport with spirits then any neophyte Mage, and a pack to back them up. A theurge with some XP put in their ritual abilities is far more versatile (if less powerful) than a Mage, even a Spirit Mage, because spirits tend to like the Garou and be indifferent at best to humans. Its just more costly for Mages to call on spirits, so in a spirit contest, the Garou has the edge.

And don't forget the werewolves' caerns and totems. A starting Mage with a Sanctum and a decent Node to draw on can dominate a werewolf that's just hanging around... but since we're discussing balance here, the werewolf would have similar resources. Like a totem and a pack and a caern. Much harder to attack someone who is often in a place of spiritual power and safety, surrounded by allies. And have you read some of those Athro and Elder gifts, and rank 4 and 5 rituals? Garou have access to some nasty stuff. And a cliath could conceivably have rank 4 and 5 rituals in short order. Its unlikely, but in the same class as a rookie Mage who has their own tower Sanctum and Node in which to spend all day scrying in.

Elder Kindred I'll grant you, but then have things ever been easy for vampires. Their (no pun intended) suckiness against other supernaturals is part of the charm of the setting. And again, if you grant the vampire the same resources you're granting the Mage, things get a little more even.



1. Really? Which game should you be playing? Sitting in your tower killing people with your brain sounds like mage to me.

2. All of those spheres are generally useful for other purposes.

A game about killing people and taking their stuff, which Mage is not. Its a game about convincing people your view of the world is Truth, or at least true enough. There might be violence along the way, but the violence isn't the point. The Light Yagami approach you're describing is not a good way to accomplish that. It's probably even less viable then wandering around beating up random Technocrats...

And you know what? That attitude of "I'll sit in my tower and rule the pathetic Sleepers with magic!" is exactly why the Order of Reason was formed in the first place. A character who was all about bringing that outlook back would be shunned at best and quite possibly hunted down and imprisoned because that method is highly self-destructive, as demonstrated by the eventual formation of the Technocratic Union.



1. Because spirit gives you easy escape routes that your enemies probably can't follow. You can also spy with it if you took spirit before correspondence, although you really want both.

2. Because it is completely irrelevant if you suck up a couple paradox while sitting in your sanctum when you call up a spirit and tell it to kill someone across town a week later. There are no witnesses to your magic, so you won't take much. You aren't in combat, so you don't need to worry about paradox stacking. By the time the spirit carries out your request, your familiar will have eaten the paradox.

3. Because you can make fetishes

4. Because you can duplicate most other spheres with spirit, if you have the time. No Life magic? Get a healing spirit. No Mind? Hire a mind altering spirit. No Forces? Get a fire or lightning spirit etc...

5. Because a spirit adept has all the tools at his disposal to make bribing spirits easy.

6. Because, due to the myriads of types of spirit realms previously alluded to, it is really hard for most PCs to fight off spirit enemies. Among vampires, only tremere can fight spirits, only giovanni can fight wraiths. Most werewolves can't fight wraiths, etc. The spirit mage can not only get rid of all these troublesome pests, but turn them on their enemies.

1. If your enemies are vampires or Sleepers, sure they really can't follow. But pretty much any other supernatural could. And don't forget, Stepping Sideways is extremely dangerous; not only is the Umbra not exactly a safe place, but walking through the Avatar Storm deals Agg. Less than helpful if you're already wounded.

2. You seem to be forgetting that most spirits can't influence the material without manifesting. Which is extremely taxing for them. Its going to take one heck of a boon to convince a Jaggling to go out and break things for you, let alone kill people. I mean, spending tons of Essence to cross the Gauntlet, then risking tons more in a fight? You better be paying well. And they might end up subject to Disbelief and forced back across before they can finish. And don't forget, gross use of magic will have the Technocracy knocking on your door in a hurry.

3. Fetishes are even more costly than summonings. They're nice, sure, but you're probably going to have to take on a long term ban to sustain them. Either that or bind the spirit unwillingly, but then you start pissing spirits off, and then their allies, and its all downhill from there.

4. See 2 and 3. Either you're trading away valuable resources, loading yourself down with bans, or essentially being a slaver. And its always going to be slower and more expensive than using the relevant Spheres yourself.

5. You mean quintessence and taking bans? Or having all kinds of rare and weird materials on hand? Those weird materials have to have come from somewhere. Probably a quest you went on... which a newbie Mage wouldn't have done yet, because they're still new. And don't forget, in most paradigms, spirit calling takes awhile, and in some you can't even actually force the spirits to do anything, just bribe them and hope they follow through.

6. Werewolves can fight Wraiths. They can also circumvent them very easily. Also, it takes Entropy to deal with Wraiths, not (only) Spirit. And don't forget that Wraiths aren't so easy to find anymore, what with the Last Great Maelstrom raging.
As I said, Umbra spirits can't affect the material without manifesting which is, as I said, very expensive. An Umbrood hitman is a rare last resort, not a common enforcer.

Oracle, I'm trying to figure out the kind of person, and their paradigm, that would have Sphere ratings like that, and the only set that makes any sense at all is the third one. She looks kinda cool, actually.

Finally, no one has responded to the paradigm issues. Its one of the most important parts of the game, you can't just ignore it when creating characters. Ideally, it would be your starting point, and it should never be an afterthought which, dare I say it, it seems to be in this case.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-06-06, 02:47 AM
Oracle, I'm trying to figure out the kind of person, and their paradigm, that would have Sphere ratings like that, and the only set that makes any sense at all is the third one. She looks kinda cool, actually.

Finally, no one has responded to the paradigm issues. Its one of the most important parts of the game, you can't just ignore it when creating characters. Ideally, it would be your starting point, and it should never be an afterthought which, dare I say it, it seems to be in this case.
Paradigm is super easy.
#1 - Caeser, Hermetic Force Adept
A budding master of the ancient arts, Caeser has focused his efforts on the basics of thaumaturgy - scrying, elemental manipulation, and the channeling of mana.

#2 - Radar, the Ecstatic Gadgeteer
The disciple of a former member of the Weather Underground, Radar has an acute sense of paranoia. He does his best to be "tuned" to all the right wavelengths, and is always discovering hidden messages in the ambient noises around him.

#3 - Carrie, the Etherite Golden Girl
Scorned by many of her peers, Carrie has devoted her Enlightened understanding to the production of personal wealth. Extracting gold from the Ether was her first trick, but after the invention of her Chaos Capacitor she has taken to procuring money from those who lack the Science to create their own "luck"

#4 - Spooks, the Dreamspeaker Waif
"Spooks" would have been an Orphan, raised by the spiritual melange that lurks where the Gauntlet is thinnest, were it not for the timely intervention of her Spirit Guide - The Raven - that lead her to an old Dreamspeaker. Now she flits along the shadows of reality, moving freely in the twilight realm she once called home.
Mage, in particular, is designed so that any Tradition Mage could legitimately use any particular Sphere (or combination of Spheres).

Aside: where does it say that you must use a Correspondence Sphere equal to the level of the effect you're channeling. In particular, the description of Conjuring seems to indicate you merely need to have enough Pattern Sphere to "understand" the Pattern you are trying to pull. I'm looking in the 2nd Edition Mage Book, but a page reference would be most appreciated.

In any case, my Hermetic with Correspondence 3 and Forces 3 can have fun teleporting about until he picks up 2 dots in Prime. At which point he can begin nuking anyone he has a blood vial from. If there is some way that this Ritual Magic does not work, I'd appreciate a detailed breakdown - I'm using the magic shorthand page which lists the "Correspondence Successes" needed to affect a target with various degrees of sympathetic magic and AFAIK Scry-and-Die is extremely easy for a Mage to do.

Saph
2010-06-06, 03:50 AM
In any case, my Hermetic with Correspondence 3 and Forces 3 can have fun teleporting about until he picks up 2 dots in Prime. At which point he can begin nuking anyone he has a blood vial from. If there is some way that this Ritual Magic does not work, I'd appreciate a detailed breakdown - I'm using the magic shorthand page which lists the "Correspondence Successes" needed to affect a target with various degrees of sympathetic magic and AFAIK Scry-and-Die is extremely easy for a Mage to do.

It does work to some degree. However, Ritual Magic isn't a guarantee - the book specifically calls it out as something the ST should keep an eye on. A big ritual can also take days to perform, and it's also not too hard to block once you know about it. In our Mage campaign, various PCs and enemies tried similar effects, and we got fairly good at countering them.

More serious issues are:

• Massive rituals like that draw A LOT of attention, and will bring the Technocracy down on top of you really really fast.

• If you botch a major death magic ritual (which gets more likely the more successes you're trying to stack up) the Paradox backlash will kill you.

Lost Wanderer
2010-06-06, 03:57 AM
I'm not really buying Radar as a concept, but whatever. At least the others seem pretty interesting. That said, is there any paradigm outside "basically a D&D wizard" that facilitates scry and die like that? Just because the mechanics make it fairly easy doesn't mean there are that many kinds of character that can actually do it.

As for Ritual Magic... well, good luck not exploding, because remember, every failure ups the difficulty, with only three dice to cast with you're unlikely to be able to reliably handle difficulties over 7, and if you stop unfinished, you have to suck up the paradox anyway.


The "Corr. has to equal highest other Sphere used in long distance magic" rule is from Revised. WW added a whole bunch of rules like that, in part to make exactly this kind fairly abusive technique harder. Or rather, make it the province of powerful Mages and not accessible to low power people.

EDIT: And as Saph says, each successive roll in a ritual extends the casting time by one increment. So that scry and die might literally take you a week to try, once, especially with Arete that low. And don't forget that people can and will trace such massive displays of magic.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-06-06, 04:24 AM
I'm not really buying Radar as a concept, but whatever. At least the others seem pretty interesting. That said, is there any paradigm outside "basically a D&D wizard" that facilitates scry and die like that? Just because the mechanics make it fairly easy doesn't mean there are that many kinds of character that can actually do it.

As for Ritual Magic... well, good luck not exploding, because remember, every failure ups the difficulty, with only three dice to cast with you're unlikely to be able to reliably handle difficulties over 7, and if you stop unfinished, you have to suck up the paradox anyway.


The "Corr. has to equal highest other Sphere used in long distance magic" rule is from Revised. WW added a whole bunch of rules like that, in part to make exactly this kind fairly abusive technique harder. Or rather, make it the province of powerful Mages and not accessible to low power people.

EDIT: And as Saph says, each successive roll in a ritual extends the casting time by one increment. So that scry and die might literally take you a week to try, once, especially with Arete that low. And don't forget that people can and will trace such massive displays of magic.
OK, but these fixes still sound like "ST has arbitrary discretion" rather than "here's a system of rules you can use to play a game" which was rather my point. Merely saying "you can use Ritual Magic unless the ST says no" is little better than the directives such as "magic is as easy to cast as the ST lets you get away with" which is what the current Vulgar/Coincidental distinction rules are. Mage is "balanced" entirely on the whim on the ST - there's just not enough RAW to inform a player Ex Ante how Magic is supposed to work in oWoD Mage. And plenty of RAW that suggests that you can do ridiculous feats starting from the gate.

As for Scry-and-Die, you also have the Verbena whose use of sympathetic magic (such as "vodoo dolls") is all about this kind of attack. And I'm pretty sure a VA is not going to be against using some Black IC when they get the chance :smalltongue:

Finally - "Radar" is a variation on the classic "Spooky Orphan" concept. A particularly creepy "ghost in the machine" VA is the other way you can go with it. I mean, think about it - someone whose mastery of Correspondence allows them to flit throughout the "real world" as though they were a shadow, while their mastery of Spirit lets them blend their existence with the "other realm" beyond the Gauntlet. It's so classic a Trope ("Child of Two Worlds") that I would pull up the link if I wasn't so lazy/tired.

Seriously though: if you can't make any Sphere combination work for a Tradition Mage, you're not trying hard enough.

EDIT: Also, regarding the "blocking" - how many Werewolves/Vampires are going to be able to notice Mages casting magic? And unless the Technocracy is omniscient they're not going to "notice" some random casting against a supernatural target - or they'd be much better at locating and purging Tradition Mages and other supernaturals.

Saph
2010-06-06, 04:37 AM
OK, but these fixes still sound like "ST has arbitrary discretion" rather than "here's a system of rules you can use to play a game" which was rather my point. Merely saying "you can use Ritual Magic unless the ST says no" is little better than the directives such as "magic is as easy to cast as the ST lets you get away with" which is what the current Vulgar/Coincidental distinction rules are. Mage is "balanced" entirely on the whim on the ST - there's just not enough RAW to inform a player Ex Ante how Magic is supposed to work in oWoD Mage. And plenty of RAW that suggests that you can do ridiculous feats starting from the gate.

We've already pointed out the RAW issues with your approach - namely, huge death rituals take ages, draw the attention of the Technocracy, and will kill you if you botch. But yes, in general Mage requires a good ST to balance it. That's the price you pay for having a system that lets you do literally any magical effect you can think of.

Satyr
2010-06-06, 05:36 AM
Remember that these games have a very different focus and scale. Vampire is usually a mostly local game, with a focus on small intrigues, rivalries within a city, and local issues; Werewolf is basically a "Let's punch out Cthulhu" game, with cosmic entities as Big Bads, and much, much, higher stakes. Mage is a bit inbetween these two extremes. From a Werewolf perspective, things like the antediluvians are barely middle management when it comes to the hierarchy of evil.

Besides, if there is one indicator that a player is unsuitable for a WoD game, it's the mindset that power of an individual character is the most determining factor. The WoD is not that kind of game. Power is pretty much a given, but it is not one of the important factors of the game and the game tends to suffer from a powergamer perspective (it's supposed to be a horror game, after all).

Gnaeus
2010-06-06, 06:43 AM
A cliath werewolf also has a far better rapport with spirits then any neophyte Mage, and a pack to back them up. A theurge with some XP put in their ritual abilities is far more versatile (if less powerful) than a Mage, even a Spirit Mage, because spirits tend to like the Garou and be indifferent at best to humans.

(Shrugs) Yeah. Everyone is best in their own sourcebooks. Lots of mages have great relations with spirits. Some traditions are heavily focused on playing nice with spirits.

A theurge has nothing like a spirit mages versatility. He has a tiny range of fixed powers, all of which the mage can easily duplicate. A mage with high spirit is like a theurge with every printed power and the ones that didn't get printed.


A starting Mage with a Sanctum and a decent Node to draw on can dominate a werewolf that's just hanging around... but since we're discussing balance here, the werewolf would have similar resources. Like a totem and a pack and a caern. Much harder to attack someone who is often in a place of spiritual power and safety, surrounded by allies.

Sure. But a pack of werewolves is analogous to a coterie of mages, but MUCH MUCH weaker. When you put 5 mages together, you get the ability to do crazy game breaking magics combining all their spheres. When you put 5 werewolves together, you get more physical power, which doesn't help much. The mage benefits much more from his allies than the werewolf.


And have you read some of those Athro and Elder gifts, and rank 4 and 5 rituals? Garou have access to some nasty stuff. And a cliath could conceivably have rank 4 and 5 rituals in short order. Its unlikely, but in the same class as a rookie Mage who has their own tower Sanctum and Node in which to spend all day scrying in.

You are confusing fluff with rules. The werewolf starts at rank one, with cruddy basic gifts. He has to spend a long time in play in a combat dominated game to get to athro. THEN he has to spend a ton of XP on rituals and gifts. All of which are more limited than spheres.

The mage easily starts at arete 3. There is NOTHING that prevents him from scrying on a caern and "Suggesting" to all the athro and elders there to go die fighting bravely for gaia at the local plastics plant or whatever.



A game about killing people and taking their stuff, which Mage is not. Its a game about convincing people your view of the world is Truth, or at least true enough. There might be violence along the way, but the violence isn't the point. The Light Yagami approach you're describing is not a good way to accomplish that. It's probably even less viable then wandering around beating up random Technocrats...

And you know what? That attitude of "I'll sit in my tower and rule the pathetic Sleepers with magic!" is exactly why the Order of Reason was formed in the first place. A character who was all about bringing that outlook back would be shunned at best and quite possibly hunted down and imprisoned because that method is highly self-destructive, as demonstrated by the eventual formation of the Technocratic Union.

You are talking, but you aren't saying anything. The mage can do anything with his power that it is in character for him to do. His goals are determined by his character, his power is determined by the rules (and his imagination).
No one is saying that the mage necessarily wants to crush any particular, higher ranked and more experienced other supernatural. But if the plot or his character goals make that advantageous, he can. Easily.

All the oWoD games had violent battles. The difference is that the mages don't even have to show up to win theirs.



1. If your enemies are vampires or Sleepers, sure they really can't follow. But pretty much any other supernatural could. And don't forget, Stepping Sideways is extremely dangerous; not only is the Umbra not exactly a safe place, but walking through the Avatar Storm deals Agg. Less than helpful if you're already wounded.

Most of the near umbra is relatively safe. You don't automatically pop into the deep umbra to fight Cthulhu.

Mages can get into any of the spirit realms. So, they might have to worry about Kindred of the East.


2. You seem to be forgetting that most spirits can't influence the material without manifesting. Which is extremely taxing for them. Its going to take one heck of a boon to convince a Jaggling to go out and break things for you, let alone kill people. I mean, spending tons of Essence to cross the Gauntlet, then risking tons more in a fight? You better be paying well. And they might end up subject to Disbelief and forced back across before they can finish. And don't forget, gross use of magic will have the Technocracy knocking on your door in a hurry.

You pick your spirits. Violent spirits like to fight. Fire spirits like to set things on fire.


3. Fetishes are even more costly than summonings. They're nice, sure, but you're probably going to have to take on a long term ban to sustain them. Either that or bind the spirit unwillingly, but then you start pissing spirits off, and then their allies, and its all downhill from there.

A little of some, a little of the other, and PCs are usually fine. Bans, like flaws, can easily be chosen that have only minimal impact on the character. This is especially true if you mostly work with spirits who share your world outlook, you can often get bans that get you to do stuff you would be doing or not doing anyway. And binding a few spirits is not nearly the death sentence you suggest.


4. See 2 and 3. Either you're trading away valuable resources, loading yourself down with bans, or essentially being a slaver. And its always going to be slower and more expensive than using the relevant Spheres yourself.

Sure. But unless you are rank 3-5 in all the spheres you can't do everything yourself. If you ARE rank 3-5 in all the spheres you are essentially a demigod.


5. You mean quintessence and taking bans? Or having all kinds of rare and weird materials on hand? Those weird materials have to have come from somewhere. Probably a quest you went on... which a newbie Mage wouldn't have done yet, because they're still new. And don't forget, in most paradigms, spirit calling takes awhile, and in some you can't even actually force the spirits to do anything, just bribe them and hope they follow through.

And if they won't you just talk to some different spirits. You aren't doing this in combat.



6. Werewolves can fight Wraiths. They can also circumvent them very easily.

A few, with specific gifts. Silent Striders might be a problem. Most others, not so much.


Also, it takes Entropy to deal with Wraiths, not (only) Spirit. And don't forget that Wraiths aren't so easy to find anymore, what with the Last Great Maelstrom raging.

O.K. You might need some entropy also.

The point in the timeline wasn't specified.

The relative rarity of wraiths is irrelevant in the face of the neverending stream of wraith plotlines. I think "supernatural disease" is the only plot I have seen overused more than "wraith shows up and decides to frack with you".


As I said, Umbra spirits can't affect the material without manifesting which is, as I said, very expensive. An Umbrood hitman is a rare last resort, not a common enforcer.

I have seen them used commonly. Usually very effectively.


Also, regarding the "blocking" - how many Werewolves/Vampires are going to be able to notice Mages casting magic? And unless the Technocracy is omniscient they're not going to "notice" some random casting against a supernatural target - or they'd be much better at locating and purging Tradition Mages and other supernaturals.

Exactly.

In every crossover game I have seen, tabletop and LARP, any mage who wasn't a complete new character utterly dominated against other supernaturals. I have never built the scry and die mage discussed. Mage isn't my favorite system. I have more than once played stealth characters (vampires and changing breeds) who couldn't even get to the enemy camp to scout it before mages fully explored it and ended the threat with correspondence + death sphere of choice.

Wanderer, it may be that some of the points that you raise are the game as it should be played. The game that fluff suggests. (Of course, following that fluff, you would have very little interaction between the supernaturals at all). In my experience, (which is limited to a handful of tabletop games and probably 30 LARP venues) the game that is mostly played is very, very different than what you suggest.

Kurald Galain
2010-06-06, 06:56 AM
EDIT: Also, regarding the "blocking" - how many Werewolves/Vampires are going to be able to notice Mages casting magic?
Potentially, any of them with Spirit Speech or a few dots of Auspex.


And unless the Technocracy is omniscient they're not going to "notice" some random casting against a supernatural target
But we're not talking about "some random casting", but about a ritual that takes up to a week to complete. They've got any number of Men In Black, wiretaps, and/or spy satellites that may pick up on that.

oWOD really isn't the kind of game where, if the rules technically allow X, therefore X will always work. There can always be complications and consequences, in large part because that makes the story better. In a game about storytelling, using a "win button" to kill all your enemies from a distance essentially ends the game. You may have "won", but there's little point in "winning" an RPG in the first place.

This is just like saying "D&D sucks because you can be Pun-Pun". Regardless of how technically possible that is, the point is that people don't play that way. If you win D&D, all you get is This Lousy T-Shirt, while the rest of the players go play a fun campaign where your character didn't do that.

Gnaeus
2010-06-06, 07:06 AM
Potentially, any of them with Spirit Speech or a few dots of Auspex.

Not by the rules. Most spirits can't see true magic. Auspex doesn't have a prayer.



This is just like saying "D&D sucks because you can be Pun-Pun". Regardless of how technically possible that is, the point is that people don't play that way.

I would say that it is more like saying "D&D sucks because the Wizard and Psion can utterly dominate for 2 fights per day then hide in their rope trick or pocket plane and recover." People totally do play that way, in both games.

When I hear "I'm starting a game of Mage" it sounds to me like "I'm starting a game of D&D, at level 10, Gestalt, all sourcebooks allowed. We have an Incantrix and a Planar Shepherd already, so don't hold back".

Satyr
2010-06-06, 07:13 AM
A theurge has nothing like a spirit mages versatility. He has a tiny range of fixed powers, all of which the mage can easily duplicate. A mage with high spirit is like a theurge with every printed power and the ones that didn't get printed.

Actually, it's not in the Gift, it's in the Rituals, especially Summoning and Binding. Which allow for literally shredding Reality itself apart, if needed. In terms of raw power, there is not much difference in this regard, but Mages tend to have a quicker and a somewhat more reliable access to the same degree of power.
Accept when you include BSDs. Basically calling Bane swarms almost immediately is rather unpleasant (thanks to the raw power of banes).

Chineselegolas
2010-06-06, 07:51 AM
Werewolf is basically a "Let's punch out Cthulhu" gamehttp://www.faraos.dk/Content/photos/Rollespil/978158846365453199_large.jpg

Yeah... Couldn't resist. That is all.

mostlyharmful
2010-06-06, 12:49 PM
But we're not talking about "some random casting", but about a ritual that takes up to a week to complete. They've got any number of Men In Black, wiretaps, and/or spy satellites that may pick up on that.

Why do they care so much about one reality deviant stomping on another? Especially when it's a mage doing it so they automatically try not to draw attention. Sure the Technocracy doesn't like tradition mages running around, certainly they don't like them recruiting or hassling Technocracy minions or facilities but it seems a terribly inefficient use of resources to go after monsterhunting mages.

Doubly so if you play the Technocracy as an internally divided group of mages with their own problems, limits and budgets who just happen to be on top at the moment rather than all seeing ubermensch who can swot any mage that tries to do anything.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-06-06, 03:53 PM
We've already pointed out the RAW issues with your approach - namely, huge death rituals take ages, draw the attention of the Technocracy, and will kill you if you botch. But yes, in general Mage requires a good ST to balance it. That's the price you pay for having a system that lets you do literally any magical effect you can think of.
Slight quibble - the rules don't say "death rituals take ages" they say "if the ST wants a ritual to take ages, it does."

This is just another variant of Rule Zero - that is to say, the absence of a rules system.

As for the Technocracy: using them as an antagonist is one thing, but it is another thing entirely for them to be another Rocks Falls (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies) in the ST's arsenals. The Technocracy is busy manipulating world events, keeping magic from the Sleepers, and making sure Vampires and Werewolves don't mess with their plans - they are not going to be sending in the HIT Marks because a Tradition Mage is setting a Vampire on fire.

N.B. the reason why I'm spending so much time talking about Mage is because I am currently recasting Mage so that the Magic System doesn't require so much ST intervention to work - without losing the flexibility. One thing that I've done is got rid of Ritual Magic - under a Dice Pool system, it's just a stupidly broken mechanic.

Saph
2010-06-06, 04:28 PM
As for the Technocracy: using them as an antagonist is one thing, but it is another thing entirely for them to be another Rocks Falls (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RocksFallEveryoneDies) in the ST's arsenals. The Technocracy is busy manipulating world events, keeping magic from the Sleepers, and making sure Vampires and Werewolves don't mess with their plans - they are not going to be sending in the HIT Marks because a Tradition Mage is setting a Vampire on fire.

First you're talking as if you'll be walking around blowing up everything that looks at you funny, now you're saying all you're doing is setting a single vampire on fire. Make up your mind already. Are you being discreet, or not?

Next, you seem to be claiming that Tradition Mages have unlimited cosmic power, while simultaneously claiming that the Technocracy - who use the EXACT SAME MAGIC SYSTEM, only with way more resources than you - are irrelevant as an obstacle. And no, the Technocracy is not going to look favourably on you just because your targets are vampires. That just means they're likely to clean up both sides afterwards.

And you still seem to be missing the whole "the ritual will kill you if you botch" issue.

This isn't a matter of Rocks Fall. This is a matter of the ST actually reading the rules of the game they're supposed to be running. The Mage book explicitly says that mages who behave arrogantly with their magic, using it in flashy and vulgar ways, are going to get hosed. It's the whole point of the system.


N.B. the reason why I'm spending so much time talking about Mage is because I am currently recasting Mage so that the Magic System doesn't require so much ST intervention to work - without losing the flexibility.

*shrug* Good luck with that, but I seriously doubt you'll get anywhere.

(The reason being that in my experience there's a direct relationship between flexibility and amount of adjudication required. It's easy to make a system that requires almost no intervention, but it generally requires taking out all but a few choices.)