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View Full Version : Psion vs Wizard, fight. 3.5



Grifthin
2010-06-04, 03:43 AM
Taking Into account all wealth, nasty tricks anything goes by the rules. Straight Wizard 20 and Straight psion 20. Who wins. Who's likely to get initiative, Who's best prepared, who kills who first ?

I say wizard. Buddy says Psion. What does the playground think ?

mostlyharmful
2010-06-04, 03:44 AM
Wizard without turning it into a cheese slinging match, there's just so much more splatlove for the core classes unfortunately.

PId6
2010-06-04, 03:50 AM
If anything goes, it depends on who can Pun Pun first, which just gets meaningless pretty fast.

Without infinite loops, wizard wins. Despite psion's better action economy abuse, higher level psionic powers just can't compete with higher level spells. There's no psionic equivalent of Gate or Astral Projection, for example. Wizard wins for sure.

Eldan
2010-06-04, 04:07 AM
Which is weird, actually. Just talking by the fluff, shouldn't Astral Projection be just the kind of thing a Psion does?

PId6
2010-06-04, 04:17 AM
Which is weird, actually. Just talking by the fluff, shouldn't Astral Projection be just the kind of thing a Psion does?
They have plenty of ways for astral travel, some starting much earlier than wizard, in fact. However, the exact spell itself, which duplicates your equipment and pretty much gives you free lives, rightfully does not exist in psionics.

Aharon
2010-06-04, 04:27 AM
It depends on how you treat the 3.0 psionic handbook, actually.
Many believe the Expanded Psionic Handbook to be a complete rewrite, despite it's name thel "If it wasn't changed, you can still use it" clause. If you ditch that assumption, many powers like Astral Projection are, RAW, still in the game.

There are also some Psionic Calling Powers, though they are admittedly not as powerful as gate (Sardior's True Calling gets you a mature adult Gem Dragon).

Also, Psion 20 can get out Powers with ML 60 with those stones in one of the eberron books, I don't think wizard 20 has access to ways to raise his caster level that far.

In the end, I guess the Wizard still wins, Psionics doesn't have anything akin to MDJ.

Gnaritas
2010-06-04, 04:44 AM
In the end, I guess the Wizard still wins, Psionics doesn't have anything akin to MDJ.

That is assuming you rule magic=psionic right? or can you Dispel Psionic effects even you rule magic!=psionic?

Eldan
2010-06-04, 04:53 AM
They have plenty of ways for astral travel, some starting much earlier than wizard, in fact. However, the exact spell itself, which duplicates your equipment and pretty much gives you free lives, rightfully does not exist in psionics.

I know it doesn't, and that's much too good. But Astral Projection... from the top of my head, I remember three or four fantasy novels where it was done, and it comes up in a lot of real-world practices. And the link to psionics is pretty obvious.
And yes, it really shouldn't be in D&D like this. At least the projected body shouldn't be an exact copy of the real one, more like a scout form.

Prodan
2010-06-04, 04:53 AM
Also, Psion 20 can get out Powers with ML 60 with those stones in one of the eberron books, I don't think wizard 20 has access to ways to raise his caster level that far.

Not to disappoint you, but... they kinda do.

Eldan
2010-06-04, 04:56 AM
If we allow all kinds of cheese... I think I saw a trick somewhere for near-infinite caster level.

Also, Taint, for infinite attributes.

J.Gellert
2010-06-04, 05:07 AM
Without infinite loops, wizard wins. Despite psion's better action economy abuse, higher level psionic powers just can't compete with higher level spells. There's no psionic equivalent of Gate or Astral Projection, for example. Wizard wins for sure.

While that's definitely true, I like to think that there is a certain point beyond which any extra power is "overkill". Yes, the Wizard can kill you with a Gate, but can't the Psion kill the Wizard just as dead with something lesser?

In other words, the wizard may have nukes, but doesn't the psion have enough TNT to still be able to blow him up?

PS. I've never really bought into the whole Psionics thing so I'm more curious than anything.

Aharon
2010-06-04, 05:17 AM
@Gnaritas
That is the usual assumption, yes.

@Prodan
Not disappointing me at all. What are you thinking of? I know casters have ways to boost their CL to hell, I didn't know generic wizards can. Or are you thinking about something like UMD'd consumptive field?

@Eldan
I'm not familiar with taint, I thought that's what the tainted sorcerer uses. Other classes can do that, too?

Optimystik
2010-06-04, 07:55 AM
3.5 Psionics has taint too - see also, Subverted Psion. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20051125a)

Also, I agree that a Psion cannot stand up to a Wizard - too many cheesy spells they cannot get. However, the Psion can at least do the Save Game Trick to keep himself from dying, and he is much better able to find the Wizard.

Now, An Erudite, on the other hand...

9mm
2010-06-04, 08:20 AM
draw actually, because at total high level cheeze both are flat out unkillable.

Nero24200
2010-06-04, 08:51 AM
It woudl depend wholly on the level of cheese. With high levels, the fight is kinda moot, since both can abuse the rules like crazy.

However, a wizard or psion made with what you would reasonably expect to see in a game? My money would go on the wizard, just because of the spells known, spells automatically becomming more powerful with level (since psions rely on augmentation) and core metamagic reducers, not to mention problematic spells (such as 3.5 polymorph). Psions have problematic powers as well, but wizards have alot more.

Having said that, this assment relies on both characters being something you'd reasonably expect to see in a typical D'n'D game. If the characters are build purely for the purposes of this fight or some such, then it becomes alot harder to say.

Eldan
2010-06-04, 09:18 AM
Well, if we go full on Tippy, the game becomes so broken that no one really can win anymore. It probably ends at around the point where all planes are destroyed save for a little bit where the fight happens, and even then someone would manage to turn back time or something to escape.

Basically, as soon as they start throwing around antimatter railguns, endless hordes of wishing minions and small planets from the safety of other planes, it's pretty much impossible to ever end this.

Saph
2010-06-04, 09:25 AM
While that's definitely true, I like to think that there is a certain point beyond which any extra power is "overkill". Yes, the Wizard can kill you with a Gate, but can't the Psion kill the Wizard just as dead with something lesser?

In other words, the wizard may have nukes, but doesn't the psion have enough TNT to still be able to blow him up?

This is pretty accurate, yeah. In practice caster vs caster fights depend almost completely on the skill of the players involved and the amount of preparation and cheese that's being used. Arguing about whether a wizard is "better" than a psion is fairly meaningless because you can build both in so many different ways.

Eldan
2010-06-04, 09:26 AM
The question pretty much becomes "who can get the other's defenses down first, or find an attack the other is not prepared for."

So... if the wizard is projecting from his private demiplane while shielded against divination, what can the psion do?

NEO|Phyte
2010-06-04, 09:32 AM
So... if the wizard is projecting from his private demiplane while shielded against divination, what can the psion do?

Find him (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) anyway (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm).

Optimystik
2010-06-04, 09:51 AM
Find him (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hypercognition.htm) anyway (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metafaculty.htm).

Exactly - Psionics is very good at playing detective.

AtopTheMountain
2010-06-04, 09:51 AM
At high levels like this, it can basically come down to who fails a save first, depending on the tactics they use.

Psion: Decerebate!
Wizard:Made my saving throw. Imprisonment!
Psion: Made my saving throw. Microcosm!
Wizard: Made my saving throw. Finger of Death!
Psion: Made my saving throw. Fuse Flesh!
Wizard: Made my saving throw.

Etc.
Sound familiar? :smallamused:

tyckspoon
2010-06-04, 10:01 AM
So... if the wizard is projecting from his private demiplane while shielded against divination, what can the psion do?

Drag out the Manual of Planes, find something with the ability to sever a silver cord (there's got to be a few astral-predator type critters that can do it), and True Metamorph.

balistafreak
2010-06-04, 10:14 AM
So two Tier 1 classes walk into a bar...

Fouredged Sword
2010-06-04, 10:19 AM
Whoever gets off a good shot first. Depending on the arena it could be as simple as who wins initiative. Both can pump out more damage than the other's HP. Also it depends if there is psionic transparency or not and if the psion and mage are decked out to fight the other specificly.

Adumbration
2010-06-04, 10:28 AM
Whoever gets off a good shot first. Depending on the arena it could be as simple as who wins initiative. Both can pump out more damage than the other's HP. Also it depends if there is psionic transparency or not and if the psion and mage are decked out to fight the other specificly.

Both also have the ability to become immune to hitpoint damage for significant periods, so it isn't that simple.

I'd imagine that Dispel psionics followed by a couple of Ego Whips would be Psion's first order of tactics. (With all the due action-economy-breaking buffs, of course.)

Optimystik
2010-06-04, 10:43 AM
So two Tier 1 classes walk into a bar...

Psion is actually Tier 2 - can still break the game, but more limited in terms of how.

Erudite is the one you want, and even then it has to be one of the three variants.

Flickerdart
2010-06-04, 11:02 AM
Psion can just "save game" and do the duel as many times as he wants. Wizard can Astral Project new dudes and do the duel as many times as he wants. Everybody gets to win and lose a whole bunch of times before they get bored.

Rothen
2010-06-04, 11:08 AM
So two Tier 1 classes walk into a bar...

What bar? I only see a botomless pit that leads to 9 different demiplanes.

But yeah. Not much point to this discussion, as this depends on so many factors, like saving throws, tactical decisions, etc.

There's no definite way to predict the outcome of this duel, although I'd personally say the wizard has a slightly better chance of winning thanks to all the splatbooks.

Salbazier
2010-06-04, 11:23 AM
Psion is actually Tier 2 - can still break the game, but more limited in terms of how.

Erudite is the one you want, and even then it has to be one of the three variants.

Erudite... Complete Psionic, right? Why it is more broken and what are the three variants?

Flickerdart
2010-06-04, 11:29 AM
Erudite... Complete Psionic, right? Why it is more broken and what are the three variants?
The worst offender is the Spell to Power Erudite, who can know all spells as well as powers, and thus use the Wizard's tricks against him in addition to Cleric, Druid, Bard and other exclusive spells, and all powers. Oh, and he doesn't have to prepare any of these, he can whip them out on the fly.

Jera
2010-06-04, 11:36 AM
The three variants can be found here -


Favored Discipline

Unlike most erudites, you have a discipline that you favor above all others.

Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat.

Benefit: You choose a single discipline and all powers of that discipline, no matter what class list they are on, are considered general psion/wilder powers for purposes of learning.

Mantled Erudite

You have learned to use a single psionic mantle.

Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat.

Benefit: You gain access to a single psionic mantle. You gain the granted ability of the mantle, and the powers of that mantle are considered general psion/wilder powers for the purpose of learning.

Convert Spell to Power

Your training has included basic magical theory as well as the usual psionic training.

Replaces: You lose your 1st-level bonus feat.

Benefit: You add Spellcraft to your class skill list, which allows you to attempt to convert an arcane spell into a power you can add to your repertoire. You treat the spell as a discipline power for the basis of learning it, and you must first succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell's level) and then a Psicraft check as per the normal rules of learning a discipline power (see page 154 of Complete Psionic).



But the thing that breaks the Convert Spell to Power variant is this:


As with casting a spell, manifesting a spell may require certain components (see page 174 of the Player's Handbook). Some of the components remain unchanged, such as verbal, somatic, and XP cost. Spells with expensive material components (non-negligible) require you to spend an additional 2 power points when manifesting the spell in lieu of the material components. If you happen to have the material components, no additional power point cost is assessed. Spells with a focus are treated the same as those with a material component. If the spell has an expensive material component and a focus, the additional power point cost would be 4.

So you'll have access to 9th level psion powers, and 8th level arcane and divine powers, with no need to pay for material components. They can learn/cast not just Forcecage, the Shadow Conjuration line and other wizardy spells, but also raise dead, reincarnation, revenance, and resurrection. Then cast them multiple times a day for free. It doesn't even matter if the Erudite dies because he has a few Clones of himself hidden across the country. Now you've got a group with no need to fear death.

Optimystik
2010-06-04, 11:51 AM
Erudite... Complete Psionic, right? Why it is more broken and what are the three variants?

For the same reason Wizards are T1 and Sorcerers are T2 - Prepared casting.

The variants basically remove a Psion's primary limitation vs. a Wizard - the comparatively weak psion list. StP effectively gets the Wizard list AND psionics, elevating it to Tier 0 (Particularly with synergistic spells like Mental Pinnacle.) FD Erudite gets access to ALL powers available on any other manifester's list by Discipline, including 3rd party sources like Society Mind. Mantled Erudite is the weakest of the three, but thanks to its bonus feats and starting mantle, can (a) pick up abilities that none of the others are capable of via the mantle granted abilities, and (b) can mix and match powers from various lists via mantle selection in ways that not even an FD Erudite can.

The three variants are here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) The base Erudite itself is here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060406b&page=1)

Note to the above: By default, StP Erudites can only learn arcane "spells." There is cheese available that can get them divine spells, but they can't do this out of the box.

Note also that they can learn 9th-level spells post-epic, via feats like Epic Expanded Knowledge, which breaks the "1 level below maximum" limiter.

Adumbration
2010-06-04, 01:02 PM
You know, there is a simple way to settle this matter. Someone makes a straight Psion 20, and another makes straight Wizard 20. Insert DM, and thread in the Ongoing games. Test of Spite banlist/ruleset should be sufficient to prevent the most obvious abuse.

Of course, the question is, are people curious enough? It's a big job, making a 20th level caster.

Saph
2010-06-04, 01:08 PM
You know, there is a simple way to settle this matter. Someone makes a straight Psion 20, and another makes straight Wizard 20.

Wouldn't settle anything. You could run it ten times and get ten completely different results. The whole point about high-level casters is that there are loads of ways to build them. Depending on choice of spells, powers, feats, gear, and PrCs, they can play completely differently.

Another reason these high-level fights don't prove much is that they tend to come down to "who can come up with the most broken thing that the DM hasn't specifically banned yet". It's not about the class, it's about which player is best at loophole spotting.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-04, 01:17 PM
...it's about which player is best at loophole spotting.Speaking of which, I'm here. :smallbiggrin:

Adumbration
2010-06-04, 01:19 PM
Wouldn't settle anything. You could run it ten times and get ten completely different results. The whole point about high-level casters is that there are loads of ways to build them. Depending on choice of spells, powers, feats, gear, and PrCs, they can play completely differently.

The main class feature - and thus the source of their power - are the spells and powers that the respective classes can utilize. You could try to eliminate some of the variables by taking feats, gear and PrCs out, and then let them at each other. It would not be comparable to characters with those aforementioned abilities, but they would be comparable in relation to each other.

And if you ran the test 10 times, wouldn't a score of 6-4 mean something? Especially if the contestants were allowed to change their spell selection/powers inbetween matches, and so the full range of their abilities could be tested.



Another reason these high-level fights don't prove much is that they tend to come down to "who can come up with the most broken thing that the DM hasn't specifically banned yet". It's not about the class, it's about which player is best at loophole spotting.

That's why it would require several runs.

But I digress. I highly doubt that we can find two - or more - dedicated players and DMs to run this kind of thing. I know I'm not curious enough, I'm just pondering about the premise.

Binks
2010-06-04, 01:28 PM
And if you ran the test 10 times, wouldn't a score of 6-4 mean something?

Yeah, that one won 6 times and the other 4. The variability inherint in a d20 alone requires more than 10 tests to have any possibility of a statistically significant result, allowing them to change between matches and the sheer number of different possible choices they can make each round blows that right out of the water. The variablity is too huge to really test in any possible way. You can test two builds against one another by pitting them against each other 10-20 times or so, but if you allow the builds to change the variability goes up by an order of magnitude.

Short answer, no, running a test like this 10 times wouldn't tell you anything if the result was a 6-4 win. Probably not even a 7-3 or 8-2. 9-1 or 10-0 might tell you something, but probably still falls within the realm of the error bounds.

Lycanthromancer
2010-06-04, 01:28 PM
And if you ran the test 10 times, wouldn't a score of 6-4 mean something? Especially if the contestants were allowed to change their spell selection/powers inbetween matches, and so the full range of their abilities could be tested.But what if you ran the test 10 more times and that 6-4 suddenly became 6-14? And then 26-14? Then 26-34? And so on?

Small sample sizes are inadequate to show something like this. Plus, it has a LOT to do with the players and their ability to squeeze out power from a class. I'm sure I could play both sides of the match against someone else and stomp them into the dirt, but if I went against some REAL TO'ers? I'd be TOast.

Not to mention the specific rules in place for a game, and the resources each player has to draw on, and that one build might win against another build, but lose to a third, which would then lose to a fourth, and so on.

Optimystik
2010-06-04, 01:30 PM
The main class feature - and thus the source of their power - are the spells and powers that the respective classes can utilize. You could try to eliminate some of the variables by taking feats, gear and PrCs out, and then let them at each other. It would not be comparable to characters with those aforementioned abilities, but they would be comparable in relation to each other.

But then you just end up with "That test is invalid, because if I had X, I would have won." Or, "I didn't even know Y existed. That's broken, it should be banned."


And if you ran the test 10 times, wouldn't a score of 6-4 mean something?

No, it really wouldn't.


Speaking of which, I'm here. :smallbiggrin:

...
*flees*

Adumbration
2010-06-04, 01:39 PM
All right, I'm outnumbered. I concede defeat.

Optimystik
2010-06-04, 01:53 PM
Take the Never Outnumbered feat :smallwink:

If we seem passionate about this, it's because this topic has come up many times before. Wizards are ranked higher than Psions simply because they have that many more options (just like every other prepared caster with a massive list to choose from.)

A very good example of this is the illusion school - using WotC sources, there is no way for a Psion to truly become invisible, for instance. Psions also can't counterpower or be countered, create undead or summon a wide variety of Outsiders.

You don't need to be able to do any of those things to be powerful, or to break the game, but they represent a palpable edge in the Wizard's favor.

lsfreak
2010-06-04, 01:54 PM
And if you ran the test 10 times, wouldn't a score of 6-4 mean something? Especially if the contestants were allowed to change their spell selection/powers inbetween matches, and so the full range of their abilities could be tested.

You do get something out of this - you ascertain that build X played by player A can beat build Z played by player B 6 out of 10 times (or perhaps simply player A knows more of the rules and how to exploit them. Hi, Lycanthromancer :smallsmile:). And that is data, just not the kind of data you're looking for. There are simply too many variables to extrapolate anything but the very specific builds and playstyles of the two people running such a competition. You could perhaps reach a certain point such that you could make certain generalizations, like that Cindy/mailman builds usually lose versus energy stun-focused kineticists, but even if you reach this points you're talking builds built entirely around certain spells, rather than classes themselves.

PId6
2010-06-04, 01:56 PM
Take the Never Outnumbered feat skill trick :smallwink:
Fixed that for you. :smalltongue:

Optimystik
2010-06-04, 02:10 PM
Fixed that for you. :smalltongue:

Doh! :smallredface:

taltamir
2010-06-04, 02:17 PM
Barring the total pun pun, in a high cheese game the psion wins because he has a "save" and "reload" feature.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146470

Video games taught me that even a fighter can defeat anything with enough save scumming.

I agree with those that said the psion has better ways to break the action economy, and I agree with those who said it isn't enough to overcome the wizard's spell being inherently better and more broken... but in the end save scumming is the way to go :)

PId6
2010-06-04, 03:46 PM
Barring the total pun pun, in a high cheese game the psion wins because he has a "save" and "reload" feature.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146470
I'd put save game trick under the same header as infinite loops and other things that just shouldn't be allowed (which goes to show that any such contest would be incredibly reliant on the rules involved). Besides, a wizard who knows about the trick can theoretically Contact Other Plane to find out when/where the psicrystal would end up after the Time Hop and destroy it before it can activate Forced Dream, which is another one of those "extremely reliant on players involved" kind of thing since it requires specific preparation for.

Zaq
2010-06-05, 12:58 AM
I would say that if nothing else, the existence of Craft Contingent Spell should swing the balance firmly in the Wizard's favor. Moar no-buttons = moar better.

Not to say that there isn't plenty that a psion can do (the aforementioned Save Game Trick is dastardly), but in my mind, a match between high-level casters is just a contest of who can find something the other didn't think to specifically prevent first... and having a zillion contingencies kind of makes the wizard way better at that.

Draz74
2010-06-05, 02:25 AM
I say, since either class has plenty of firepower to destroy the other with, the question becomes one of strategy rather than one of tactics. Thus, the winner is decided by the individual Psion's and Wizard's respective Intelligence, Wisdom, Bluff, and Sense Motive abilities, not their spells and powers. :smallbiggrin:

PId6
2010-06-05, 02:29 AM
I say, since either class has plenty of firepower to destroy the other with, the question becomes one of strategy rather than one of tactics. Thus, the winner is decided by the individual Psion's and Wizard's respective Intelligence, Wisdom, Bluff, and Sense Motive abilities, not their spells and powers. :smallbiggrin:
Well then obviously sorcerer wins, since he gets Bluff as a class skill so he can Bluff the wizard and psion to destroy each other and rule by himself after they are gone.

Draz74
2010-06-05, 04:43 AM
Well then obviously sorcerer wins, since he gets Bluff as a class skill so he can Bluff the wizard and psion to destroy each other and rule by himself after they are gone.

I started to respond to this with an argument, but my sarcasm-detector alarm went off halfway through, so never mind ... :smallwink:

PId6
2010-06-05, 05:05 AM
I started to respond to this with an argument, but my sarcasm-detector alarm went off halfway through, so never mind ... :smallwink:
Note to self: use more white text next time. :smalltongue: You can never be too sure on the internet...