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Prodan
2010-06-04, 04:56 AM
In a contest of melee ability, who reigns supreme?

I personally toss my hat in with the angry guy, if Steadfast Determination and the Totems are allowed.

Eldan
2010-06-04, 04:59 AM
Hmm..
Generally, the Barbarian has the advantage in pure damage output, especially on a charge with pounce, while the Warblade has maneuvers and feats.

I'm really not all that familiar with Warblade cheese, though. I'll watch this thread, this could be interesting.

Prodan
2010-06-04, 05:06 AM
I've always enjoyed the 'kung fu panda' build, where you're a Barbarian 2/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 4/Fist of the Forest 3/Bear Warrior 7/Warshaper 4

Amphetryon
2010-06-04, 05:09 AM
In a contest of melee ability, who reigns supreme?

I personally toss my hat in with the angry guy, if Steadfast Determination and the Totems are allowed.

Assuming all splatbooks but no PrC, the Barbarian can rather easily outdamage the Warblade. On the other hand, the Warblade is more likely to have the ability to otherwise deal with the threat her foe presents.

If 'a contest of melee ability' means a 1-on-1 throwdown between the two of them, the Barb should win. If it means 'which one is generally more valuable to most parties), I'll pick Warblade 11 times out of 10.

Runestar
2010-06-04, 05:10 AM
I agree the barbarian should have the edge in terms of damage output, but the warblade should be more versatile. It also depends on the nature of the foe (high dr may give the barb more fits than the warblade).

Prodan
2010-06-04, 05:14 AM
I agree the warblade should have the edge in terms of damage output, but the warblade should be more versatile. It also depends on the nature of the foe (high dr may give the barb more fits than the warblade).
Shall I assume you meant 'barbarian' the first time?


If it means 'which one is generally more valuable to most parties), I'll pick Warblade 11 times out of 10.

So, what does the Warblade do that's more valuable to most parties? I assume it has options other than attackign things for massive damage, but what are they?

Eldan
2010-06-04, 05:17 AM
Unless the Warblade has Stone Dragon maneuvers to ignore DR.

Coidzor
2010-06-04, 05:17 AM
So the Warblade doesn't have anything to shut down the barbarian's be a melee beast and kill things to death from massive damage routine?

...what are its maneuvers for then if it doesn't have a way to deal with melee beasts?

Amphetryon
2010-06-04, 05:22 AM
Warblades have the same HD and skill points/level as a Barb, but have incentive to keep INT reasonably high, so they'll more likely have a better mix of skills.

Warblades have the ability to swap their Weapon Focus feats into any weapon they so choose, negating the biggest problem with that particular feat tree.

Warblades have full access to the Iron Heart and White Raven schools of blade magic, which are two of the three best choices, objectively. Iron Heart has Iron Heart Surge to overcome negative 'conditions' (it's famously badly worded, so work with the DM) and White Raven Tactics allows your allies' initiative to change for another set of actions in the same round.

Prodan
2010-06-04, 05:24 AM
Barbarians can intimidate everything into submission when raging.

Runestar
2010-06-04, 05:35 AM
Unless the Warblade has Stone Dragon maneuvers to ignore DR.

Both the warblade and barb can access shards of granite (that stone dragon tactical feat), though it is fairly feat intensive for a barb (especially if you want to squeeze in extra rage and steadfast determination).

However, my point was that dr should be less crippling to a warblade. Against a foe with dr which a barb cannot overcome (say a tarrasque), multiplied by the number of attacks he makes (5 with bab+16 and haste), that is potentially up to 75 damage blocked out. Conversely, a warblade which uses a strike maneuver has to contend with dr only once each round, so less damage is prevented. This actually compensates for the warblade's lower damage potential.


So, what does the Warblade do that's more valuable to most parties? I assume it has options other than attackign things for massive damage, but what are they?

Many of its maneuvers can tack on a secondary effect other than damage. Some of them can daze/disable/stun the foe for a round, for instance. So you have more choices beyond just attacking for damage. You have boosts to improve your combat odds (such as rerolling missed attacks or granting allies extra actions) and counters to throw a wrench in whatever the DM throws your way (allowing you to stay alive longer than a barb).

The warblade is also less reliant on the full-attack for its damage, so you can move and still dish out the hurt. Granted, barbs can readily access pounce with complete champion, but it is possible that the environment may not favour charging.

A barb full-attacking every round gets boring quick (effectiveness aside). What the warblade does is make melee fun again by giving the player more meaningful options in combat.:smallsmile:

Amphetryon
2010-06-04, 05:36 AM
Barbarians can intimidate everything into submission when raging.

Generally, that's only true if the took Might Makes Right or otherwise focused heavily on Intimidate. They get it as a class skill, but they have little other incentive to put points or a good roll into CHA; CON, STR, WIS, and DEX (arguably in that order) all compete for attention from the player of a Barbarian, relegating CHA to 5th place for most builds.

Sliver
2010-06-04, 05:40 AM
I'm really not all that familiar with Warblade cheese, though.

There isn't much Warblade cheese. They are good from the box and need no special build to be a competent party member. A barbarian is better at overall damage, but a Warblade is much more flexible. After a certain point higher damage doesn't matter much, and warblades can reach solid damage levels as well.

Eldan
2010-06-04, 05:40 AM
Why does a Barbarian really need a high Wis? I mean, it helps with survival and perception skills, but more important than dex, really?

Amphetryon
2010-06-04, 05:45 AM
Why does a Barbarian really need a high Wis? I mean, it helps with survival and perception skills, but more important than dex, really?

AC and REF saves are, in my personal experience, the primary reasons to pump DEX, and neither one is as crippling when neglected as a WILL save, which the Barb only gets a (modest) bonus to while Raging. A failed REF save deals some HP damage to the Barb and his d12 HD; a failed WIS save usually means the Barb is either standing idle or about to do a charge attack on his buddy the Rogue (or other party member).

Additionally, many of the Barb's class skills are WIS based, so a player who wants his Barb to do more than 'Grok Smash!' is likely to want to invest in those particular skills.

Prodan
2010-06-04, 05:48 AM
Survival's a great skill if you want to use that ACF which replaces Trapsense with a Trapfinding ability based off your Survival check.

Runestar
2010-06-04, 06:26 AM
a failed WIS save usually means the Barb is either standing idle or about to do a charge attack on his buddy the Rogue (or other party member).

Steadfast determination lets you use your con on will saves in place of wis, letting you safely dump wis with little ramification. It also synergizes very well with rage, which boosts your con and adds to your will saves (so you get double bonus).

Paving the way for warforged barbs with 6wis/cha. :smallbiggrin:

A 1st lv barb with pounce and whirling frenzy can make 2 attacks at 1st lv while raging, vastly outstriping a warblade's damage potential. Extra rage lets him do it every encounter, and he actually has better AC to boot. :smallsmile:

Greenish
2010-06-04, 06:40 AM
A 1st lv barb with pounce and whirling frenzy can make 2 attacks at 1st lv while raging, vastly outstriping a warblade's damage potential.Steel Wind.

Amphetryon
2010-06-04, 06:55 AM
Steel Wind.
Steel Wind specifies different opponents, RAW. Not quite as useful for taking out a large threat as Pounce and Whirling Frenzy.

Iferus
2010-06-04, 06:55 AM
A Warblade deals with Barbarians easily.

Wait until he charges, use Wall of Blades if he hits and then counter with Disarming Strike. A barbarian without a weapon is just an angry guy, and with one succesful attack deflected, a pounce is not as stong.

Greenish
2010-06-04, 06:58 AM
Steel Wind specifies different opponents, RAW. Not quite as useful for taking out a large threat as Pounce and Whirling Frenzy.It's still two attacks at level 1. With Punishing Stance and a greatsword, you're likely to kill most any opponents with a single hit. :smallcool:

Barbarians make great chargers, but warblades can deal with not getting the charge off.

Prodan
2010-06-04, 06:59 AM
A Warblade deals with Barbarians easily.

Wait until he charges, use Wall of Blades if he hits and then counter with Disarming Strike. A barbarian without a weapon is just an angry guy.

Locked Gauntlet.

But we're not here to debate builds, we're here to debate the utility of classes.

In combat, both do very well, though the Warblade has a few more options.

In terms of things that aren't attacking enemies, Warblades can boost party members, while Barbarians may be able to intimidate people.

Out of combat, Warblade will likely have some more skills, while with the right ACF, a Barbarian can find traps with Survival and disarm with an attack roll, which is pretty useful.

Runestar
2010-06-04, 07:15 AM
I think the barb would deal more damage, but is also more fragile and will likely go down more quickly in combat. The warblade should have more staying power.


Wait until he charges, use Wall of Blades if he hits and then counter with Disarming Strike. A barbarian without a weapon is just an angry guy, and with one succesful attack deflected, a pounce is not as stong.

The barb likely wins in terms of opposed attack rolls (which is what wall of blades boils down to). But regardless, we are examining them in terms of how well they can contribute in a standard party, not how well they fare in a PvP matchup.

Eldariel
2010-06-04, 07:21 AM
Warblade eventually gets brutal charges too; take Pouncing Charge in Leading the Charge with Dancing or Raging Mongoose, for example. Add Shock Trooper, Leap Attack and the generic charge multipliers, and I think he'll actually be outdamaging our Barbarian. Then he'll follow up with Diamond Nightmare Blade for lots. And Rabid Wolf Strike is nothing to underestimate early on, in e.g. Punishing Stance.

I'd say in combat their damage outputs are quite comparable, though Barbarian wins early on (when Raging), but in terms of versatility Warblade is granting allies extra actions, ending magical effects, moving as swift actions, taking extra actions and so on. Intimidating Rage is a nice extra action-kinda effect, but not enough right out of the blue.


Out-of-combat, Warblade has some useful maneuvers (IHS, Hunter's Sense and Mountain Hammer, for example, have out-of-combat uses) and some nice skill points and skill list. I think a Warblade wins out, but Barbarian is definitely no slouch in terms of ripping things apart.

Draz74
2010-06-04, 11:17 AM
Warblade eventually gets brutal charges too; take Pouncing Charge in Leading the Charge with Dancing or Raging Mongoose, for example. Add Shock Trooper, Leap Attack and the generic charge multipliers, and I think he'll actually be outdamaging our Barbarian. Then he'll follow up with Diamond Nightmare Blade for lots. And Rabid Wolf Strike is nothing to underestimate early on, in e.g. Punishing Stance.

Needs moar Stormguard Warrior.

lsfreak
2010-06-04, 01:23 PM
Needs moar Stormguard Warrior.

Biggest problem with that is feat load, though warblade has another advantage over barbarian here by getting two of them as bonus feats at 5th/9th levels. Simple Robilar's works wonders though, for any heavy-hitting 2H build, but warblade has the advantage of using it to trigger Blood in the Water, among other things.

The biggest thing is that warblades can contribute more than just hit point damage. Barbarians are fairly limited to hit point damage, intimidation, and tripping in terms of what they can do. Things with very high AC, unable to be tripped, very high hit dice (many monsters), and the like are problematic for barbarians. Meanwhile warblades can target touch AC more readily, get movement + strikes in one (Bounding Assault, Death From Above), attack more than just hit points (Con, Wis, albeit not a lot), and they have all of ToB's advantage of being able to still do significant damage on just a standard action, making them much more mobile.

Barbarians can make decent-to-good martial archers, which warblades don't do, but warblades (or at least, ToB material) are also pretty much the only way to compete with non-precision TWF'ing.

Prodan
2010-06-04, 03:37 PM
Barbarians are fairly limited to hit point damage, intimidation, and tripping in terms of what they can do.
Let's not forget trapfinding :smallwink:

Draz74
2010-06-04, 03:38 PM
Eldariel has come up with some pretty nasty Warblade archer builds.

Person_Man
2010-06-04, 04:00 PM
Warblade, by miles and miles.

The Barbarian gets Fast Movement, Uncanny Dodge -> Improved Uncanny Dodge, minor DR, and poorly scaled bonuses to Str, Con, and Will Saves which it can only use limited times per day.

The Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) gets Tome of Battle stances and maneuvers, which provide a huge array of different offenses and defenses on par with spells. In addition, he gets Weapon Aptitude, limited but useful bonus feats, Uncanny -> Improved Uncanny Dodge, it's Int bonus to tons of different things, and Stance Mastery.

If you're even vaguely familiar with the tricks you can pull of with the Tome of Battle, the difference is not even close.

lsfreak
2010-06-04, 04:08 PM
Eldariel has come up with some pretty nasty Warblade archer builds.

/facepalm
I can't believe I forgot those. So warblades do 2HF, TWF, archery, and one-handed fighting all pretty well, while barbarians are pretty much limited to 2-handed fighting and archery.

Of course, almost every warblade can benefit from one level of barbarian. Whirling frenzy + pounce is awesome. I believe most of Eldariel's archer builds make use of Whirling Frenzy; the one thing that makes barbarian archery pretty good makes warblade archery even better.

Escheton
2010-06-04, 04:11 PM
Barbarian, fighter, paladin, monk...nothing but dipclass adhancements for the 16 lvls of swordsage, crusader and warblade you need for 9th lvl maneuvers.
How can there even be a discussion about this?

Edit: the monk dip is to always threaten and be able to use maneuverstrikes. And evasion based off concentration checks, which I think rules.

AstralFire
2010-06-04, 04:16 PM
People dip monk for ToB?

tyckspoon
2010-06-04, 04:23 PM
Edit: the monk dip is to always threaten and be able to use maneuverstrikes. And evasion based off concentration checks, which I think rules.

Or you could just be a Swordsage. Even if you're not using the Unarmed version, Improved+Superior Unarmed Strike is just a couple feats away.

Eldariel
2010-06-04, 04:24 PM
People dip monk for ToB?

Two levels of Monk is fine; Flurry, Evasion, 2 feats, little losses; I like UA SS with 2 levels of Monk.

Tar Palantir
2010-06-04, 05:13 PM
Two levels of Monk is fine; Flurry, Evasion, 2 feats, little losses; I like UA SS with 2 levels of Monk.

Plus, if you use variant monks from UA, you can grab some nice feats as monk bonus feats (such as Power Attack or Improved Trip), thus freeing up your other picks for less mainstream feats.

Eldariel
2010-06-04, 05:29 PM
Plus, if you use variant monks from UA, you can grab some nice feats as monk bonus feats (such as Power Attack or Improved Trip), thus freeing up your other picks for less mainstream feats.

Yeah, that's what I meant with "2 feats"; the Monk-feats aren't very good, but the alternatives like prerequisiteless Improved Trip are golden (especially for Setting Sun SS).

Runestar
2010-06-04, 08:37 PM
People dip monk for ToB?

I recall a warblade11/monk2/swordsage2/masterof9 build somewhere. :smallsmile: The bonus feats really help for such a feat-starved build, and free evasion never hurts.

Darrin
2010-06-04, 10:37 PM
If you're even vaguely familiar with the tricks you can pull of with the Tome of Battle, the difference is not even close.

More specifically, once the Warblade gets a reliable way to do Con damage without a save (Bonesplitting Strike is available at ECL 7), or White Raven Hammer for stun without a save (ECL 15), the Barbarian is toast. Even against a pouncing ubercharger, there are several maneuvers that can reduce or prevent the Barbarian's ability to move/charge/full attack.

Draz74
2010-06-04, 10:57 PM
Even against a pouncing ubercharger, there are several maneuvers that can reduce or prevent the Barbarian's ability to move/charge/full attack.

Though, the best ones are Setting Sun ... :smallfrown:

Darkfire
2010-06-05, 06:59 AM
Counter Charge doesn't have any prerequisites so the Warblade can pick it up with a pair of slippers of the Setting Sun for just 3000gp, giving them the option to stop a charge as an immediate action on an opposed Dexterity check (or Strength but that would probably be to the Barbarian's advantage) and they can recover it as normal on their turn.

Azernak0
2010-06-05, 07:25 AM
This is just another "Who goes first?" just like most other contests.

If the Barbarian goes first, the Warblade has a chance with some abilities that can weaken the Barbarian or stop attacks. Barbarian charges and does 1000 damage and if the Warblade can't counter it somehow, he explodes.

If the Warblade goes first, he gets to use his maneuvers and the like to make the fight a toe-to-toe fight, which the Warblade will probably win because the Barbarian can't afford to Power Attack for full damage.

Runestar
2010-06-05, 08:14 AM
Why do people keep comparing how well they will do in a matchup? We should be pitting them against stock encounters and see how well they can contribute in a party. :smallsigh:

Drascin
2010-06-05, 08:24 AM
People dip monk for ToB?

Of course. Two levels of monk is a great investment. More is a gimp, but two give a lot of bang for your buck. And you're only one initiator level behind anyway!

Escheton
2010-06-05, 12:41 PM
Yeah, I think that was more a "no discussion, eh? I'll show you no discussion"
Half a page of discussion followed. So...well played.

Now on the subject of pitting the two against challenges.

How would they do against a spring attacking scout thats going straight for the wizard?

Greenish
2010-06-05, 12:45 PM
How would they do against a spring attacking scout thats going straight for the wizard?If they can charge, either could bring the scout down. Neither gets access to Thicket of Blades without dip or feats.

Neither will probably be very worried about the spring attacker's one measly hit doing anything to the wizard. :smallamused:

tyckspoon
2010-06-05, 01:10 PM
Let him get his one hit in and feel good about his poor decisions, then squish him on your turn. A single Skirmish hit shouldn't be a threat unless your Wizard happens to be a Venerable Gray Elf.

Stand in front of the Wizard. Spring Attack only prevents AoO from your target, not anybody else you move by, and Spring Attackers often don't have the spare movement to go around a roadblock. Not if they want to have enough move to get back out to a reasonably safe distance.

Ready an action to trip/grapple/Knock Down attack against the Scout to stop his movement.

Note that a Spring Attacker is a relatively trivial threat, so the same tactics work for both the Barbarian and Warblade, and neither one really needs to use their unique class features to do it. The Warblade's features do make him a little better at the attempt-to-force-AoOs strategy.