View Full Version : [3.5] DMM a 3rd or lower Spell... urk.

2010-06-04, 10:11 AM
I recently attempted constructing a 5th level Cleric using DMM. Thing is, without Divine Power (a 4th level spell), I'm having trouble constructing anything remotely resembling CoDzilla.

It seems like some people get by without Divine Power, though, persisting "other spells". Well, I'm wondering just what these spells are, because the feat expenditure on DMM on spells other than Divine Power is a bit underwhelming. Not going to lie and say that it's terrible, but not as powerful as some people seem to make it out to be.

2010-06-04, 10:35 AM
I think a lot of what you are being caught up with here is just the low level. The three spells that most builds Persist for the Co part of CoDzilla requires the trinity of Divine Favour (first level spell), Divine Fury (fourth) and Righteous Might (fifth).... so you just don't have access to them quite yet.

Aotrs Commander
2010-06-04, 10:38 AM
To be fair, you can't do CoDzilla until mid levels anyway. As Tyger just said (as I clicked the reply button...), three out of the Holy Trinity are 4th and 5th level, and for Druids the Dzilla doesn't start until you get Wild Shape and Natural Spell (at level 6). So, yeah, you're not gonna get CoDzilla at 5th level. At this point, the fighter's not too far behind and the Wizard's just getting into gear.

Give it a few more levels.

2010-06-04, 10:41 AM
If you are playing a melee cleric at 5th, BAB hasn't really come into it yet. You have one point less than the fighter, but you get the same # of attacks. That said, Prayer is persistable, and Prayer>Divine Favor for now. Recitation might be a good choice too, but I am away from books.

2010-06-04, 10:44 AM
Fell Weaken Body Blades as a 3rd level spell....

2010-06-04, 10:49 AM
I thought this was about house ruling you couldn't metamagic a spell up past 9th level. Which frankly is a pretty decent house rule to me.

At lower levels, divine favor and GMW are generally pretty good at getting you the buffs you need to at least compare with a fighter. I'm sure there are probably some good spell compendium spells that could still make you fairly broken.

2010-06-04, 11:17 AM
Ice Axe might be a good pick until you get the spells you need to really throw your Strength through the roof. It doesn't allow Strength to damage, but you do get touch attacks and the base damage is high (2d12 +1/2 levels cold damage.) Balor Nimbus is an interesting one- 6d6 automatic flame damage on anything you can grapple. Bite of the WereFoo is the one you really want, but is sadly not on the Cleric list.

2010-06-04, 11:47 AM
You can totally CoDzilla at level 5, although that's about as low as you can go.

It's easiest with a cloistered cleric, and you'll need both Power Attack and Knowledge Devotion (the Collector of Stories skill trick is helpful). As tyckspoon mentioned, ice axe is brutal at that level: you're making melee touch attacks for 2d12+2 damage, for an average of 15 damage per hit. If you PA for 3 and can swing a Knowledge check of 26+ with Knowledge Devotion, you're up to 2d12+11 (avg dmg 24) as a melee touch attack at your full normal attack bonus. As a bonus, you're dealing cold damage instead of physical damage, so you bypass damage reduction.

If you have the Spell domain, plus high Strength and/or a good magic weapon, consider grabbing wraithstrike (via anyspell) instead. If your damage bonuses from Strength and gear are high enough, this might offer a better accuracy/damage profile than ice axe, and you won't have any trouble affecting enemies with spell resistance.

2010-06-04, 11:48 AM
Mass Lesser Vigor is pretty amazing. And yeah, Prayer and Divine Favor are fine, DF particularly if you have a CL boost from e.g. Spellgifted.

Claudius Maximus
2010-06-04, 11:50 AM
Elation, Prayer, and Mass Lesser Vigor are all decent candidates.

2010-06-04, 11:58 AM
Holy cow, there is ice axe. I just overlooked it as one of those cruddy "enhance a weapon" spells like flaming arrows/sword/codpiece/whatever, but that's actually pretty good.

As for mass lesser vigor, doesn't the "max 25/rounds" (or whatever it says in the entry, there's a max) prevent (useful) Persisting?

2010-06-04, 12:01 PM
As for mass lesser vigor, doesn't the "max 25/rounds" (or whatever it says in the entry, there's a max) prevent (useful) Persisting?

Not really, since empower breaks the 10d6 cap on fireball damage.

2010-06-04, 12:20 PM
The best part about Ice Axe is that you can cast spells freely while using it. It vanishes (allowing you to perform somatic components) and reappears once you're ready to start swinging again. Isn't that cool? (sorry)

2010-06-04, 02:19 PM
As for mass lesser vigor, doesn't the "max 25/rounds" (or whatever it says in the entry, there's a max) prevent (useful) Persisting?
Not really, since empower breaks the 10d6 cap on fireball damage.

The vigor series of spells (CD) raise an interesting question. Does the built-in maximum duration of each spell limitation override the effect of the Extend Spell feat?
Yes. Extend Spell still increases the spellís duration, but only up to the spellís listed maximum duration. Use either the normal maximum duration or the doubled duration, whichever is less. If a 7th-level druid used Extend Spell on her vigor spell, the duration could not increase beyond 25 rounds.

I'd say Extend has more in common with Persist (isn't it a pre-req too?) than Empower however I believe that, by RAW, Persist changes the duration to 24 hours not 24 hours (max x rounds).

2010-06-04, 02:55 PM
Some suggestions:

If you're going up against creatures who use invisibility, Invisibility Purge is really nice to have always on.
If you don't have darkvision or something like that, Devil's Eye (Book of Vile Darkness) lets you always see within 30', including through magical darkness.
Healing Lorecall (Spell Compendium), with 5-9 ranks in Heal, lets you remove dazed, dazzled, and fatigued conditions with any Conjuration (Healing) spell -- including the Cure Minor Wounds orison. Get to 10+ ranks in Heal and you can also remove exhausted, nauseated, and sickened.
Lesser Visage of the Deity (Spell Compendium) gives you +4 charisma and resist energy 10 to 2 or 3 types, depending on your alignment. Because of the Charisma boost you'll get 2 extra undead turning attempts, which can help you persist more spells.