plot hole: Fyron's Son [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Zevox

2010-06-04, 02:18 PM

Ya know, it's only a plot hole if it's somehow related to the plot. Given that plot as it stands is unaltered by the presence or absence of a son of Fyron's, since he would be dead anyway if he did exist, it's just a minor inconsistency. Which could even be chalked up to Roy misremembering the story, if we wanted to come up with an in-world explanation for it, unless there's another reference to this son I'm not aware of.

Zevox

Lecan

2010-06-04, 02:44 PM

unless there's another reference to this son I'm not aware of.

Zevox

Roy mentions the son both times he fights Xykon, I believe. But, still explainable by your explanation. And, I agree, it isn't really a plot hole as there are many explanations for his existence or non-existence and neither way affects the story.

The Wanderer

2010-06-04, 03:16 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html
This contradicts "start of darkness" where we get to see what actually happened that night. It was Fyron and Roy's dad, and xykon only killed Fyron, there was no son.

There has been speculation about this a couple of times over the years. The most popular conclusions are: 1) Fryon's son was killed in another part of his mansion before Xykon and Fryon had their showdown, and Fryon and Eugene had no knowledge of this at the time. Euegene only found the body or noticed Fryon Jr.'s disappearance later when he returned to his master's house.

2) Like Eugene, Fryon Jr. tried to track Xykon down after Fryon's death. Unlike Eugene, Fryon Jr. found Xykon and promptly got killed by him.

If nothing about it is ever officially explained, then take your pick on which theory you like better.

Jokasti

2010-06-04, 04:23 PM

What if Eugene created a son for Fyron in his story so that Roy would sympathize more?

tassaron

2010-06-04, 04:32 PM

Ancalagon

2010-06-04, 04:38 PM

What if Eugene created a son for Fyron in his story so that Roy would sympathize more?

Maybe it's a thing as "Darth Vader killed your father?"

I mean... Eugene was some sort of son for Fyron and with Fyron gone, Eugene had to change his life and assume another one, thus, the good man known as "Eugene" was dead. From a certain point of view.

Roy: "From a certain...!"

Hum. Yes. Sure. ;)

Leecros

2010-06-04, 04:56 PM

This contradicts "start of darkness" where we get to see what actually happened that night. It was Fyron and Roy's dad, and xykon only killed Fyron, there was no son.

just because Fyron's son wasn't there doesn't mean that Xykon didn't kill him.

Might've killed him after the fact.

Shhalahr Windrider

2010-06-04, 05:01 PM

What if Eugene created a son for Fyron in his story so that Roy would sympathize more?
No. SOD shows Eugene’s version of the story. No son mentioned at all. The two time in the online strip that Roy mentions it are the only times any son is mentioned.

So if this son thing is in any way accurate, it is based upon knowledge that Roy obtained after Eugene passed the buck.

Deca

2010-06-04, 05:22 PM

Maybe Rich just forgot about the son. It's not really a plot hole. Just a minor continuity error.

Flame of Anor

2010-06-04, 05:33 PM

just because Fyron's son wasn't there doesn't mean that Xykon didn't kill him.

Might've killed him after the fact.

Yes, exactly.

archon_huskie

2010-06-04, 05:44 PM

The only one who can tell us for sure is Xykon. And do you know how many people named Fyron he killed in Cliffport?

edit oh, apparently five that he remembers.

denthor

2010-06-04, 07:34 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html
This contradicts "start of darkness" where we get to see what actually happened that night. It was Fyron and Roy's dad, and xykon only killed Fyron, there was no son.

Daddy lies!!!! Oh the shock that wizard that specializes in illusion should be able to tell a lie?

This is the same man that met his wife in a bar and told his son it was the library

Please say a thread closing thought for a poor demented soul that is bound to look at the pearly gates but never enter Yea!!!

See what lying gets you!!!!!

A forever young hottie in the after life see comic 39

Shhalahr Windrider

2010-06-04, 08:11 PM

Maybe Rich just forgot about the son. It's not really a plot hole. Just a minor continuity error.
Not likely. He mentioned the son over 300 strips after (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) the first time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html). And I don’t recall the timing of #434 with respect to SOD, but even if it wasn’t published after the book, Rich was certainly working on SOD at the time. So there’s something intentional there.

Zevox

2010-06-04, 10:48 PM

"Why'd you kill Fyron and his son for it?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html)

It's not just something Rich mentioned once in an early strip and forgot about. There's probably some sort of explanation.
Hm, interesting - you're right, if it was mentioned that much more recently, it's likely not some dropped plot idea from way back when. The story was in full swing by the point of the second mention, and Start of Darkness was almost surely already fully written. I was actually lucky and quickly able to find the discussion thread for that comic, and the announcement of Start of Darkness' upcoming publication (http://www.giantitp.com/index2.html) was easy to find given how few news posts The Giant makes. Their respective dates are April 2nd, 2007 and April 11th, 2007. Little more than a week apart. Surely, then, Rich would not have mentioned Fyron's son in comic 434 if, in writing Start of Darkness, he had dropped him from the story. It would be a rather crazy oversight. There's almost certainly some other explanation.

Zevox

Nimrod's Son

2010-06-05, 11:04 PM

There was another thread on this pretty recently. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150308)

FoE

2010-06-05, 11:12 PM

It's an error in the comic. Just ignore it.

Nimrod's Son

2010-06-05, 11:16 PM

It's an error in the comic. Simple as that.
So why wasn't it fixed in War & XPs? It would be such a glaring oversight that he could hardly have done it by accident, especially since that strip and SoD were made at more or less the same time.

Bongos

2010-06-06, 01:04 AM

Just because it wasn't shown in a flashback doesn't mean it didn't happen.
It may be something "yet to be revealed".

Coidzor

2010-06-06, 05:06 AM

Daddy lies!!!! Oh the shock that wizard that specializes in illusion should be able to tell a lie?

This is the same man that met his wife in a bar and told his son it was the library

Well, what's simpler, that he told a lie that he had no reason to tell(the rest of the news alone would be enough to get Roy going) or that he was telling the truth about it? Occam's Razor isn't just a euphemism for that badass great sword in the store window you wanted as a kid.

That other lie you mention in the spoiler, that is the sort of lie that parents usually tell their kids.

Ancalagon

2010-06-06, 05:34 AM

It's an error in the comic. Just ignore it.

Increasingly unlikely. And pretty easy to retcon or to explain afterwards even if it WAS a mistake in the first place.

So no matter if it actually was a mistake or if it was planned... it's not a plain mistake that has to get ignored.

The Pilgrim

2010-06-06, 06:43 AM

Xykon killed 5 people named Fyron at Cliffport. My guess is that this "Fyron's son" is actually the son of another Fyron, and Roy messed up both stories.

Ancalagon

2010-06-06, 07:01 AM

Roy only knows the story he got told by his father.

So if anyone messed up anything, that would be Eugene. Given his relationship with Fyron, that seems very, very unlikely.

John Cribati

2010-06-06, 07:03 AM

As said above somewhere, I think Eugene considered Fryon more of a "father" than he did his own father Horace. And so, when Fryon was killed, Eugene felt himself "die" a bit on the inside. He just didn't explain it that way to Roy.

Or Eugene made up that part about the son to give Roy more motivation to off the lich.

Ancalagon

2010-06-06, 07:08 AM

You mean like this?

Maybe it's a thing as "Darth Vader killed your father?"

I mean... Eugene was some sort of son for Fyron and with Fyron gone, Eugene had to change his life and assume another one, thus, the good man known as "Eugene" was dead. From a certain point of view.

Roy: "From a certain...!"

Hum. Yes. Sure. ;)

In all honesty... that would be totally stupid.

Shhalahr Windrider

2010-06-06, 09:05 AM

Roy only knows the story he got told by his father.
Unlikely. We saw the story Eugene gave Roy, and it made no mention of Fyron’s son, metaphorical or otherwise.

Bongos

2010-06-06, 11:17 AM

Ancalagon

2010-06-06, 11:59 AM

Unlikely. We saw the story Eugene gave Roy, and it made no mention of Fyron’s son, metaphorical or otherwise.

So, where did he get the other one? He invented the son himself? Even more unlikely.

I believe it WAS a mistake in the first place but it's so extremely easy to fix that it simply does not matter anymore - it's no plot hole, it's just a little bit of background that's not explicitly explained.

A plot hole is something that kills the plot and that you have to ignore or it makes the plot as it happend very unlikely.

So, no matter where it comes from or if it will have a bigger role or not - it's not a plot hole. It *might* be a small glitch by the author in the background of his characters but a) we cannot know and b) it has no effect on said background at all.
Unless it's going to play a role somewhere in the story, it's simply not relevant for anything.

Shhalahr Windrider

2010-06-06, 12:19 PM

So, where did he get the other one? He invented the son himself? Even more unlikely.
Eugene didn’t tell Roy that Xykon was in the Dungeon of Dorukan, either. Obviously Roy did some research. Just not into how to permanently kill a lich.

And, yeah, I concede the possibility that some of this “research” could have more conversation from Eugene. But I don’t see why he’d leave Fyron’s son out of the dramatic story and only spring it on Roy during the detail planning.

Bongos

2010-06-06, 12:46 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html
This contradicts "start of darkness" where we get to see what actually happened that night. It was Fyron and Roy's dad, and xykon only killed Fyron, there was no son.
The killing simply happened some other night that we have yet to hear about.
It is foreshadowing. We are obviously going to hear the story of Fryon's son later on.
There is no plot hole, citizen. Go back to your fun.

Ancalagon

2010-06-06, 01:28 PM

Eugene didn’t tell Roy that Xykon was in the Dungeon of Dorukan, either. Obviously Roy did some research. Just not into how to permanently kill a lich.

I know that the son is not mentioned in any of the scenes where Eugene talks about it.

But what is more likely: That Roy did some research on his own and found out about the not-mentioned son, that he blatantly misremebered what his father told him ("There was a son in there, no?"), or that he even made him up... or that Eugene dropped off-panel something about the son of Fyron ("Oh, he killed his son as wel, btw")?

I find the second option much more likely - especially as I would consider the origin of this discrepancy to really be an oversight by the author. But that does not turn it into a plot hole or something.

Nimrod's Son

2010-06-06, 07:28 PM

I find the second option much more likely - especially as I would consider the origin of this discrepancy to really be an oversight by the author. But that does not turn it into a plot hole or something.
That explanation doesn't sit comfortably with me for a few reasons. I might as well just quote what I said last time instead of paraphrasing it again:

That's a big thing to leave off-panel though, and if it is indeed the case I'd have to question why.

It seems pretty obvious from the prequels that this is the one and only time Eugene has spoken to Roy about Fyron. He explains their entire history, complete with flashback images of the two studying/socialising together and growing visibly older over time. He talks of the way Fyron was a father to him in a way that Horace never was. He then talks of how he watched Fyron die, and the aftermath. We see the entire conversation, with no reason to assume anything was left out, and a son is never mentioned or seen at all - yet presumably he would have been like a brother to Eugene. Either that or something of an enemy. So why no mention? (And it appears that this was the last time Roy and his father ever spoke, so Eugene didn't clarify at a later date either.)

I really hope Rich is withholding something clever with this, because at the moment it just don't make no sense.
I especially don't like the "author error" idea because it implies that rather than try to retcon his original oversight, Rich just doggedly stuck to what he'd put in a very early strip, before the plot even really existed, even though doing so blatantly contradicts other things that he is also currently working on. He's shrugged off other early mistakes by just holding his hands up and admitting it; I can't believe that he would have Roy repeat his assertion that Xykon killed Fyron's son, at the same time as writing the full story of Xykon and Fyron's encounter, and simply not notice that the two don't match. That goes way beyond being a simple oversight; that's borderline idiocy, and doesn't sit well with the level of attention to detail the comic has shown so far.

Shhalahr Windrider

2010-06-06, 10:13 PM

But what is more likely: That Roy did some research on his own and found out about the not-mentioned son, that he blatantly misremebered what his father told him ("There was a son in there, no?"), or that he even made him up... or that Eugene dropped off-panel something about the son of Fyron ("Oh, he killed his son as wel, btw")?

I find the second option much more likely - especially as I would consider the origin of this discrepancy to really be an oversight by the author. But that does not turn it into a plot hole or something.
As I said, it’s obvious Roy did some extra research, as he did what Eugene never did: he found Xykon. Why would it be so unlikely in this course of research that Roy would not find out if Xykon killed a “Fyron, Jr.” whether or not he turned out to actually be Master Fyron’s son? When tracking a villain like Xykon, one often does so by following the trail of blood.

derfenrirwolv

2010-06-06, 10:20 PM

Perhaps Xykon killed him off camera When Freyon's son (Lets call him Argon) went looking for revenge.

Or Xykon killed him in the next room and Freyon didn't see Argon's dead body on his way to kill Xykon.

Or.... Xykon kidnaped Argon at some point and fed him into a rift.. creating.. a continutity snarl.

whitelaughter

2010-06-07, 12:24 AM

Given professions and names get handed down, it's likely that Fyron's son was also a wizard called Fyron: it's seems a bit unlikely that a single city is going to have 5 unrelated wizards with the same name.

B. Dandelion

2010-06-07, 12:25 AM

That explanation doesn't sit comfortably with me for a few reasons. I might as well just quote what I said last time instead of paraphrasing it again:

I especially don't like the "author error" idea because it implies that rather than try to retcon his original oversight, Rich just doggedly stuck to what he'd put in a very early strip, before the plot even really existed, even though doing so blatantly contradicts other things that he is also currently working on. He's shrugged off other early mistakes by just holding his hands up and admitting it; I can't believe that he would have Roy repeat his assertion that Xykon killed Fyron's son, at the same time as writing the full story of Xykon and Fyron's encounter, and simply not notice that the two don't match. That goes way beyond being a simple oversight; that's borderline idiocy, and doesn't sit well with the level of attention to detail the comic has shown so far.

I agree with this.

It's a small enough detail that only people who are really thoroughly combing through the story are likely to catch it, but that could be a setup for a plot point only those same thorough readers will have been able to spot coming ahead of time -- sort of a bonus for the dedicated. It was slightly before my time, but I seem to recall hearing about people complaining over 113 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html) when the Greenhilt sibling present seemed unlikely to be Julia due to the significant age gap between her and Roy, then later along came "Responsible" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0496.html).

Actually doesn't SoD pre-date "Responsible"? There's a bit in there where we learn Sara is pregnant with her second child -- it's specifically the second (Eugene is flabbergasted to hear her talk about their children as in the plural), and NOT specifically mentioned by name, and the timing problem would have been the same, were that child Julia (which obviously it was not). Did that baffle people at the time? That could be ''two'' possible contradictions SoD intentionally reinforced just to screw with our heads to set up a greater payoff later on.

Nimrod's Son

2010-06-07, 09:36 AM

Kranden

2010-06-07, 01:15 PM

The truth is that Eugene killed Fyon's son when he refused to help him avenge his fathers death.

DUN DUN DUN

taltamir

2010-06-07, 02:42 PM

my problem with the "daddy lies" theory is that we "see" daddy tell roy the story, so we get to first hand "hear" what roy was told and roy was not told about a son.

The "roy forgot the exact details" is more plausible (but still odd), and zykon clearly remembers killing 5 guys named fyron in that city alone.. and he specifically remembers that one because of having to clean the blood, and because its where he got his totally badass non magical crown... And in both cases that roy mentioned a son he zykon went along with it...

The problem with the "son went after zykon, found him, and was killed", is the way they all phrase it does not seem to compute with that theory. Also, we don't hear Eugene telling roy that (so how does he know?)

The notion that he killed the son in another room and the father and eugene didn't know at the time works out... but the problem with that eugene should know, and roy's knowledge comes from eugene's telling (which we observed) and when he told him about it eugene did not mention a son.

Xykon only said he killed five people called Fyron, not five wizards.

5 people in cliffport named Fyron... they were not necessarily all wizards. and there were Fyrons killed in other cities.

PS. yes you are all correct in that it isn't a plot hole, but a simple and insignificant continuity error.

Ancalagon

2010-06-07, 04:19 PM

and he specifically remembers that one because of having to clean the blood

I assume that was just one how his usual teases. He seems to like those (see the battle with Roy on the undead dragon).

and because its where he got his totally badass non magical crown...

I think that's why Fyron was a memorable kill. Also, it was a pretty close call for Xykon.

taltamir

2010-06-08, 10:40 AM

I think that's why Fyron was a memorable kill. Also, it was a pretty close call for Xykon.

True, fyron kicked his ass in the magic duel, he had to surrender... and then beat fryon to death with a vase when his guard was done. (fyron really should have just finished him off when he had the chance... thats what misplaced mercy gets you)

Leecros

2010-06-08, 11:41 AM

(fyron really should have just finished him off when he had the chance... thats what Being Good gets you)

fixed that for you :smallwink:

but a simple and insignificant continuity error.

The only problem i have with it being a continuity error is that it happens more than once, if Roy stated early that Fyron had a son that died and never mentioned it again i wouldn't have a problem calling it a continuity error, but it happened twice

Ancalagon

2010-06-08, 12:01 PM

True, fyron kicked his ass in the magic duel, he had to surrender... and then beat fryon to death with a vase when his guard was done.

No, it was not just some vase. It was a Wizzy Award!

Bongos

2010-06-08, 12:41 PM

fixed that for you :smallwink:

The only problem i have with it being a continuity error is that it happens more than once, if Roy stated early that Fyron had a son that died and never mentioned it again i wouldn't have a problem calling it a continuity error, but it happened twice
That is why I think it was intentional, and that we will eventually learn the details about how Fryon's son met his demise at the hands of Xykon.